79 replies to this topic

[antonvrs]

Can anyone tell me where to get a copy, or at least the full title and ISBN # of Doug Nye's BRM book- Vol. 1?
I never even saw a review of it in the US press and didn't know it existed 'til I joined this forum. I'll buy Vol. 2 as soon as it appears.
Anton

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by antonvrs
Can anyone tell me where to get a copy, or at least the full title and ISBN # of Doug Nye's BRM book- Vol. 1?
I never even saw a review of it in the US press and didn't know it existed 'til I joined this forum. I'll buy Vol. 2 as soon as it appears.
Anton

The only copy I can find online is http://dogbert.abebo...PL?bi=135755370

(That's one of the fancier editions though).

pete

[Don Ludewig]

antonvrs (or anyone else interested), try emailing: CRBriston@aol.com
He may have a regular edition.
DEL

[David Beard]

Originally posted by antonvrs
Can anyone tell me where to get a copy, or at least the full title and ISBN # of Doug Nye's BRM book- Vol. 1?
I never even saw a review of it in the US press and didn't know it existed 'til I joined this forum. I'll buy Vol. 2 as soon as it appears.
Anton

Perhaps Doug has a stack of slightly soiled ones stacked up under the stairs for impoverished TNFers?

[Doug Nye]

I really have taken to Anton in a BIG way.... sounds like a thoroughly sound chap to me...

Vol 1's ISBN = 0-947981-37-3

As for David's sentiment - genuinely would that I could, but I don't and sadly can't.

Sorry....

DCN

[Dave Wright]

Doug

sorry if you've covered this before on the forum, but one bookseller says volume 2 only covers the space-frame cars. I was hoping it would cover all the 1.5 litre V-8s. Can you clarify?

[Doug Nye]

Dave - I can confirm that Vol 2 'only' covers the 'Tube-framed cars 1959-1965'.

This includes the 2 1/2-litre P48s in both F1 and InterContinental Formula guise, the 1 1/2-litre Climax-engined P57 1961 F1 works cars, the modified P57-BRM V8 customer (and works) cars of 1962-65 (run by Tony Marsh, Jack Lewis and Jackie Epstein), the 1961-65 1 1/2-litre V8-engined P578 works cars, both works team and BP France/Centro Sud entries, the 1964 P67 four-wheel drive car and the succession of Rover-BRM gas turbine Le Mans car variations 1963-1965 - including BRM's 1962 World Championship year with Graham Hill.

What I hope is adequate coverage of the above fills a Volume virtually as large as Vol 1. To add the V8 monocooque car saga - covering the P61 and P61 Mark 2 cars - to the above would have created a volume thicker than sensibly bindable, or indeed affordable.

The monocoque V8 Vol 3 is written and will follow 2 after a shorter delay than my currently bone-idle performance.

DCN

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Dave - I can confirm that Vol 2 'only' covers the 'Tube-framed cars 1959-1965'.

This includes the 2 1/2-litre P48s in both F1 and InterContinental Formula guise, the 1 1/2-litre Climax-engined P57 1961 F1 works cars, the modified P57-BRM V8 customer (and works) cars of 1962-65 (run by Tony Marsh, Jack Lewis and Jackie Epstein), the 1961-65 1 1/2-litre V8-engined P578 works cars, both works team and BP France/Centro Sud entries, the 1964 P67 four-wheel drive car and the succession of Rover-BRM gas turbine Le Mans car variations 1963-1965 - including BRM's 1962 World Championship year with Graham Hill.

What I hope is adequate coverage of the above fills a Volume virtually as large as Vol 1. To add the V8 monocooque car saga - covering the P61 and P61 Mark 2 cars - to the above would have created a volume thicker than sensibly bindable, or indeed affordable.

The monocoque V8 Vol 3 is written and will follow 2 after a shorter delay than my currently bone-idle performance.

DCN

Eeek. That extra shelf space I'm thinking about might have to turn into an extension, or a new house. I assume we're going to get to at least four volumes then -- or are we going to get Vol 4 on the H16 and "proper" V12s and Vol 5 on the Stanley Steamer and friends?

pete

[ensign14]

And volume 6 on the P230, volume 7 on Mangoletsi's sportscar, volume 8 on the Jordan BRM, volume 9 on what Lou Stanley was doing on 28 April 1982...

[Dave Wright]

Thanks for the clarification Doug. I will just have to wait for volume 3!

[BRM MICK]

Hi Doug and all BRM fans

New to the forum any news on Volume 3 i have both the other volumes which are great and still in one piece!!

regards

mick

[Twin Window]

Hi Mick!

You took your time, but I knew you'd end up here eventually...

Mick's a fervent BRM modeller - and while he wouldn't necessarily do this himself, I'll give you an example anyway...

Originally posted by Doug Nye

I can confirm that Vol 2 'only' covers the 'Tube-framed cars 1959-1965'...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Twin Window
.....Mick's a fervent BRM modeller - and while he wouldn't necessarily do this himself, I'll give you an example anyway...

That's great, isn't it?

Wouldn't that be the car that's in Big Dave's shed today?

[BRM MICK]

Hi Stuart and everybody.



If I could figure out how to post photos you can have more!!

The photo is of the BRM P201 as it ran at the British Grand Prix 1974. Mr H.Pescarolo on board.


I model BRM , John Wyer Gulf Porsche/ Ford, Toleman/Benetton Formula, Alan Mann Racing and TWR Silk Cut Castrol and Budlight Jaguar.


Working on BRM P160E Argentina/Brazil 1974 (the Dark Green Gold rear wing version)anyone got any photos??? in particualar engine bay and relevant plumbing.

cheers

Mick

[Pedro 917]

Welcome Mick!
Here's a picture of the Pescarolo BRM I took at Brands Hatch 1974 :

[philippe7]

Originally posted by BRM MICK

Working on BRM P160E Argentina/Brazil 1974 (the Dark Green Gold rear wing version)anyone got any photos??? in particualar engine bay and relevant plumbing.

cheers

Mick

One could hardly see less of the engine bay ......but that's all I've got !

Source unknown

[MCS]

Blimey

Looks like a black and gold BRM - dark green and gold I suspect from your note Philippe.

Never seen a shot like this before. Were the Beltoise and Migault cars similarly liveried?

Mark

[Twin Window]

Yep, as these pics (also to be seen on Forix, as is Philippe's) show...

[MCS]

Thanks Twinny.

Interesting certainly, but don't they look awful?

Mark

[Rob Ryder]

These are sitting on my hard disk, but I don't know the source


1974 Argentina : Jean-Pierre Beltoise


1974 Argentina : Jean-Pierre Beltoise


1974 Argentina : Henri Pescarolo


1974 Brazil: Jean-Pierre Beltoise

[jorism]

Double signed! By Jean Pierre and Henri.

[philippe7]

Originally posted by MCS
Thanks Twinny.

Interesting certainly, but don't they look awful?

Mark

At the start of the 1974 season, it was proudly announced that BRM had gone back to " British racing green"...but it is another of those issues where the colour the car seemed to be on photographic material appeared very different from the actual "real" colour they were painted.... ( today , we would say "appear different on TV than what they really are", but live broadcast of races was not really common in 1974....) . Anyway, the "lovely" shade of BRG chosen looked actually terribly dark - almost black - in the press , and BRM changed it to the silver and light green robe , for the first time at the 1974 Race of champions for the single P160 entry of Pescarolo . I was there, and I remember wondering what this car was when it first drove past !

[petefenelon]

and BRM changed it to the silver and light green

Was the timing allied to the acquisition of significant Motul sponsorship?

(thinks..... hang on a mo..... the usual tale about the Motul/Rondel/Token/Safir is that Motul decided they couldn't afford to be in racing during the Energy Crisis and couldn't/wouldn't support an F1 effort - yet there they were near the start of the '74 season sponsoring a works team while Ron lost control of his first F1 car...)

Now, when the energy crisis blew over, why didn't Motul come back to Ron rather than pitching up with Big Lou, who had something of a reputation for letting sponsors down...?

[philippe7]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Was the timing allied to the acquisition of significant Motul sponsorship?

I'm not sure.....the Motul deal was struck at the beginning of the season, for the three french drivers, and the "dark green" livery already sported the Motul stickers....although they were maybe slightly larger on the "new" livery....or maybe just more visible ?

Anyway....funny to think that in those times, a small specialised company producing only specific high-quality ( mostly synthetic ) engine oils , mainly sold - strangely enough - on the 2-wheels market , could afford the budget to be the main sponsor of a 3-car F1 team ........ How times have changed !

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by philippe7


I'm not sure.....the Motul deal was struck at the beginning of the season, for the three french drivers, and the "dark green" livery already sported the Motul stickers....although they were maybe slightly larger on the "new" livery....or maybe just more visible ?

Anyway....funny to think that in those times, a small specialised company producing only specific high-quality ( mostly synthetic ) engine oils , mainly sold - strangely enough - on the 2-wheels market , could afford the budget to be the main sponsor of a 3-car F1 team ........ How times have changed !

...especially considering that a few months before they decided they couldn't afford to sponsor a one-car F1 team that they'd backed for a while in F2, yes.....;)

Actually, looking at the "dark green" cars, there's a lot less Motul on them than on the "pale green and silver" ones -- nothing on the nose or the airbox of the dark-green ones, just the rear wing and scuttle.

[BRM MICK]

thanks for the response.

I quite like the colours !! although they were described as "tatty" in race reports. A sign of things to come in the last works season.

Mick

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by petefenelon

Actually, looking at the "dark green" cars, there's a lot less Motul on them than on the "pale green and silver" ones -- nothing on the nose or the airbox of the dark-green ones, just the rear wing and scuttle.

Indeed...

[BRM MICK]

Henri Pescarolo Brazil 1974

[philippe7]

What scale are your models, Mick ? And are they 100% homemade , or based on something ?

[Rob29]

Amazing. I had never seen those dark green 1974 cars before.Guess Autosport,etc was still in black & white,and no TV coverage from outside Europe.

[Barry Boor]

Yes, Rob, I was surprised at those pictures, too. Same reasons!

[Rob Ryder]

[BRM MICK]

Hi
Model is 1/43rd scale. It is based on the Hi Fi BRM kit. I only used from the kit the main body,engine/gearbox castings, and wheel castings. The remainder of the modelincluding the rads and side oil tank all plumbing are from scratch, as are all of the decals

mick

[BRM MICK]

The Motul 160e Green/Silver version can be seen on the International Trophy thread. Same kit used as a base for this version.

cheers

Mick

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by BRM MICK

The Motul 160e Green/Silver version can be seen on the International Trophy thread.

(Plus also at the British GP, just a few posts above this one...)

[Barry Boor]

Mick, I have just won a resin 43rd Rover BRM kit on Ebay. My intention is to take a Brumm BRM model to Halford's to try to match the paint colour.

What colour do you use for the original 1960s BRM green?

[Macca]

Lying awake one night, imagining that (possibly) far-off day when all the volumes of the BRM saga will have been published, I came to the conclusion that their story would have fitted neatly into a 3-volume set:

Vol 1 - The Berthon/Mays Years (up to the P48 and the shake-up of 1960)

Vol 2 - The Tony Rudd Years (starting with the 4-brake 1960 car, through to the end of 1969, although he left sooner, and including all the weird and wonderful projects of his time)

Vol 3 - The Later Years (Southgate, Pilbeam and Terry cars, decline of AGBO and fatal influence of Big Lou, and finishing with John Jordan and then the John Mangoletsi Le Mans car.)

Only they would be 3 very large volumes if lots of detail were not to be omitted, and Vol 2 would be the largest...............




I used to notice how magazine articles about BRM usually said something like 'the well-known story', but that apart from Mays' book (and then Tony Rudd's), there hadn't been a single book giving BRM's history, as there had been for Cooper, Lotus, and even Ferrari.

But no doubt some plagiarist will skim DCN's books when they are all published and produce just such a book, as has happened before, many times, with other authors.


Paul M

[BRM MICK]

Colour for BRM guess thats the 100 Dollar question. Everyone has their own opinion on that one!!
I have always used a very dark green for all my early models. My reasoning being that 1/43rd scale you cannot see the metallic paint effect e.g you look at a model from what must be a scale 30 or even more feet away . You would not seen the metallic grain in the paint at that range.
I used Ford Tourmaline Green for the Motul car which is almost black at a normal viewing distance. This is a metallic paint which goes against what i said above , but i also use Halford paints and they had nothing else dark enough.
The Brumm cars are a bit pale in my opinion, someone else would tell you different again!!
You have'nt said which Rover version you bare modelling the 63 i have always seen in very dark green. I saw the 1965 car at Silverstone 1999 it has been restored in a pale green, suffering a very poor orangepeel finish

cheers

mick

[Barry Boor]

It is the 1963 car that I have a kit of.

Disaster at Halfords! I managed to match my Brumm BRM to a paint colour, pretty accurately too. Trouble is, the colour turned out to be an Isuzu shade and it's GREY! When I really looked closely at my Brumm model, it is indeed more grey than green.

This is all very frustrating.....

I don't know that particular Ford colour but I shall certainly check it out.

One thing I can definitely tell you is that the actual factory colour used in the 1960s was ICI reference P030-3503. Sadly, there seems to be no-one alive with the facility to match those ICI colour references to modern paint shades.

If ever I find a method of doing that, most of our paint colour conundrums will be solved in an instant.

[jph]

For what it's worth, I have found that Ford Charcoal Green is about as good a match as I can get - I used to use a Renault dark metallic shade for BRM models but it was only when I bought a Ford Galaxy in Charcoal Green as the family wagon a few years ago that I noticed that this particular shade had that slight slight greyish tint that (to my eyes at least) distinguishes the BRM colour. Even in 1/43 scale it doesn't look too metallic - as BRM Mick says, often the problem with using metallic paints at this scale is that the model looks like the real thing must have been painted in some vile matalflake shade.

For the Rover BRMs, all the photos and film that I have seen seem to suggest that the '63 car was the same shade as the GP cars, but the '65 car looked paler. I found that not applying a laquer coat to my model of the '65 car produced what looked to me like the right shade. But when it comes to colour, particulalrly on models, I guess there's no right answer and what looks right to one person may look totally wrong to another.

[Simpson RX1]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Barry Boor
[B]It is the 1963 car that I have a kit of.

Disaster at Halfords! I managed to match my Brumm BRM to a paint colour, pretty accurately too. Trouble is, the colour turned out to be an Isuzu shade and it's GREY! When I really looked closely at my Brumm model, it is indeed more grey than green.

This is all very frustrating.....

I don't know that particular Ford colour but I shall certainly check it out.

One thing I can definitely tell you is that the actual factory colour used in the 1960s was ICI reference P030-3503. Sadly, there seems to be no-one alive with the facility to match those ICI colour references to modern paint shades.

If ever I find a method of doing that, most of our paint colour conundrums will be solved in an instant.





I would've thought ICI themselves should be able to help, if not, try some well established bodyshops, often they have paint scheme books that reference back to the 60's.........I know the one I use does, so I'll have a look tomorrow.

[John-w]

Here is a Yardley BRM P160 model in scale 1/43th. I have built
this Scale Racing model some years ago and I hope to get a kit
in a larger scale.




John-w

http://www.john-w.de/models/

[Pedro 917]

Ha, I see you had troubles with the yellow windscreen too....
I've made the Rodriguez version of the French GP 1971 at Paul Ricard, his last GP:

[Barry Boor]

JPH, would you still have that Ford by any chance?

I had made some enquiries and drawn a blank.

Halfords need a code, the colour name is no use to them; while my local Ford dealer has found the colour but apparently his computer shows no paint code with it - just a 'style' code, which means little to either him or me.

Everyone immediately asks for the chassis number......

[Macca]

P578/1 of course.......................


I started out using (for hand-painting) BR loco green, which is very dark, but I then found a Humbrol military dark grey-green which looks right but is satin finish, so needs a coat of gloss.


I'll post a photo tomorrow............


Paul M

[Barry Boor]

Hand-painting? Not in this world, I say, NOT IN THIS WORLD!!!!!

[Simpson RX1]

Well Barry (and anyone else that's interested), that paint code is indeed a valid ICI code, it translates to a colour called Cavern Green and was produced from 1965 - 1971 for GM Europe.

Unfortunatly, it was only ever made using cellulose based paints, and ICI have discontinued their range, however, I do have a formula for that colour, so if you can find anyone that still deals in cellulose paint, you could be on a winner.

As for Ford Tourmaline Green, Halfords should have this on the shelf, their reference books should refer to it by name, but the Ford code is XSC2547.

Hope this helps.

[Barry Boor]

Tourmaline green is indeed on the shelf. I just looked at it not 2 hours ago. My view - way too dark for BRM.

I have a relative with a spray shop. He mixes paint there but I suspect all his cellulose stuff is now gone.

I would appreciate the formula, anyway, if that is possible. Thanks!

[Simpson RX1]

OK Barry, here goes:

P030 - 9932 INDIGO 726.40
P030 - 9962 LEMON 938.00
P030 - 9903 FAST BLACK 987.30
P030 - 9949 BLUE BLACK 1,006.80
P030 - 9900 WHITE 1,027.30


Not sure if those measurements are by weight or volume but your relative should know. As ICI don't do their Belco range anymore, you may have to go to another company and see if they can cross reference those codes, you may even get lucky and find a trade supplier that can make you up an aerosol as I'm sure you don't have air fed breathing apparatus in your workshop for using 2 pack!!!

By the way, that formula will make up 1 litre, making half a litre is not simply a case of halving the amounts, but then I'm sure your relative will know this.

Regards

Ian

[Barry Boor]

Thanks, Ian. I have mixed paint in the spray shop I mentioned before. I know that the numbers were cumulative using his system. I presume these are too?