Maserati 8CM & 6C/34
#1
Posted 26 January 2003 - 20:33
I was wondering if anyone has come up with a complete (well, reasonably complete giving the subject matter!) chassis history for the closely related 8CM & 6C/34 models, including their present whereabouts and states?
Here is a brief rundown of chassis history as I understand it, including first owners and present locations: -
8CM 3005 (Taruffi)
Recently raced by Robert Brooks
Now in Dutch Motor Museum/Private Ownership?
8CM 3006 (Zehender)
Chassis used for 8CM 3020
8CM 3007 (Nuvolari)
Chassis used for 8CM 3016
8CM 3008 (Ruesch)
???
8CM 3009 (Braillard)
Recently restored by Sean Danaher in the UK
8CM 3010 (Etanelin)
Now in Mulhouse Museum in France
8CM 3011 (Straight)
Also Prince Bira Car
Now owned by Peter Giddings in the USA
8CM 3012 (Straight)
Converted to a sportscar by Straight
Now back to GP trim in USA?
8CM 3013 (Howe)
Currently for sale at DK Engineering UK
8CM 3014 (Pedrazzini)
Written off in fatal crash
8CM 3015 (Braillard)
Body incorporating headrest and radiator chrome cowl
Now in Italy?
8CM 3016 (Straight)
Written off in Hugh Hamilton fatal crash
8CM 3017 NOT BUILT
8CM 3018 (Nuvolari)
Now in Donington Collection UK
8CM 3019 (Villapadierna)
???
8CM 3020 (Villapadierna)
Fitted with pre-selector gearbox as a modern mod?
Now with Stephen Rettenmaier in Germany
8CM-6C/34 3021 (???)
???
8CM-6C/34 3022 (Ruesch)
Written off in Bradzil fatal crash
6C/34 3023 (Rovere)
Rebuilt in recent years by Bill Summers/David Black
Now with Tony Merrick UK?
6C/34 3024 (Ruesch)
Written off by Paul Pietsch in 1937 Masaryk GP crash?
Engine used in German hillclimb car
Engine now with 3023?
6C/34 3025 (Scuderia Subalpina)
With experimental torsion bar suspension
Recovered from Brazil by Maserati factory in 1950s as chassis only
Now being restored in Germany, as detailed in recent thread?
6C/34 3026 (Scuderia Subalpina)
???
8CM 3027 (Taruffi)
???
There is also the recent 6C/34 sportscar recreation containing original parts but with a new chassis frame. Does this have an original engine?
I hope this thread provokes some renewed interest in these fantastic, powerful cars.
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#2
Posted 28 January 2003 - 13:22
Another question (if anyone is there!); were the pre-selector gearboxes used in some of these cars (including the Whitney Straight chassis 3011 & 3012) built specially, or were they "off the shelf" items?
I believe Nuvolari bought one off Straight to use in his car after he had broken a leg in a racing accident with his 8CM 3007. However, I believe that he did not like the gearbox, or indeed pre-selectors in general.
This seems strange as apart from complaints regarding the extra weight of the units, all other drivers of the period seem to praise them?
#3
Posted 28 January 2003 - 14:27
#4
Posted 28 January 2003 - 17:26
#5
Posted 28 January 2003 - 17:38
Originally posted by Steve L
8CM 3016 (Straight)
Written off in Hugh Hamilton fatal crash
Are you sure? I saw pictures of the crashed car and it did not look THAT bad after the crash. Considering that, I'm not sure if the car has not been restored.
#6
Posted 28 January 2003 - 18:26
As far as 3016 (aka 3007) goes, the Hugh Hamilton crash must have been at least its second serious shunt - I believe Nuvolari stuffed it pretty comprehensively into the scenery at one point.
Considering the infamous strength (or lack of it) of the frame design, it would have taken someone very brave to have raced it again!
As a point of interest, how many other 8CMs had their chassis "boxed" apart from 3007,11 & 12?
Another 8C Maserati link - I believe a privateer bought a Maserati engine to use in his Bugatti T35/51 chassis in the 1930s. I wonder if this has survived?
#7
Posted 30 January 2003 - 12:22
http://www.barchetta...N.Tipo.8.CM.htm
= = = = =
Question :
Orsini/Zagari quote 256 centimetre for the wheelbase of the 8 CM, and 265 centimetre for the 6 C 34.
Is this correct, or should it be 256 (resp. 265) in both cases?
= = = = =
Pre-selector box :
The "off the shelf" Wilson boxes were classified according to the torque which could be transmitted. If an "off the shelf" unit was used, was the box choosen exactly according to the effective torque or was it possible to choose a smaller one, because of the uniformly distributed torque of the 8-cylinder?
#8
Posted 23 February 2003 - 17:05
Do we all agree that chassis 3004, mentioned 7 times by Sheldon (3 times for Straight/Hamilton
and 4 times for Sommer ) in fact did not exist?
Were all three Straight cars rebuilt and pointed white/blue?
#9
Posted 23 February 2003 - 20:29
C/nos 3001 and 3002 were wide-bodied cars of the type usually called 8C-3000Originally posted by Leif Snellman
Do we all agree that chassis 3004, mentioned 7 times by Sheldon (3 times for Straight/Hamilton
and 4 times for Sommer ) in fact did not exist?
3003 was an engine only
3004 was the experimental front-wheel-drive car similar to 3001 and 3002, though it may well have been converted to rear-wheel drive, which means Sheldon's records could be right. An 8C-3000 numbered 3004 exists to this day (though I'm not saying it's the same car...)
The first 8CM (monoposti) were 3005 and 3006, which had slightly offset seating; indeed, both later raced as two-seater sportscars
#10
Posted 27 February 2003 - 09:34
Noteworthy too as the Maser that attracted Nuvolari in 1933-34, and on which he conducted major surgery before racing with it -- and winning three times on the trot.
#11
Posted 27 February 2003 - 10:03
Was it perhaps the oldest car and the youngest driver there?
#12
Posted 27 February 2003 - 10:13
#13
Posted 27 February 2003 - 10:20
#14
Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:42
#15
Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:51
I think he bought it already in 1935 from Nelly Braillard.
#16
Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:04
Just spotted this, but it was not the oldest car by far...Originally posted by Ray Bell
Pardon my ignorance... but how old was Harry then?
Was it perhaps the oldest car and the youngest driver there?
#17
Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:15
Originally posted by Michael Müller
Are you talking about the Hartmann car?
I think he bought it already in 1935 from Nelly Braillard.
I am not talking about the Hartmann car. I am talking about the Festetich car.
I wrote a few things in the Hartmann topic recently
#18
Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:12
#19
Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:57
The 8CM is to be seen occasionally in European historic races these days, now painted red (which I guess is understandable) but regrettably with a painted radiator surround - just like every other 8CM - rather than the chrome surround which I understand had been on it right from the days of first owner Villapadierna
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#20
Posted 05 March 2009 - 11:18
THe car was sold to Switzerland early in 2008. Currently under restoration.Originally posted by Michael Müller
Are you talking about the Hartmann car?
I think he bought it already in 1935 from Nelly Braillard.
Ciao!
Walter
#21
Posted 05 March 2009 - 11:46
#22
Posted 06 March 2009 - 09:04
#23
Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:34
We went into this a while agoOriginally posted by Dutchy
Are we sure the chassis of 3006, the Zehender car was used for 3020? The reason I ask is the list does not include the 2 seater which was raced by Sean Danaher and later Chris Drake and more recently hillclimbed by Will Stone. I had always believed this car to be 3006.
http://forums.autosp...&threadid=63983
some of the photos have disappeared but you'll get the idea
#24
Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:49
I hadn't seen the earlier thread as I wasn't a reader of the forum then.
#25
Posted 06 March 2009 - 13:14
#26
Posted 06 March 2009 - 18:14
DCN
#27
Posted 06 March 2009 - 18:25
#28
Posted 06 March 2009 - 18:35
DCN
#33
Posted 07 March 2009 - 20:37
DCN
#34
Posted 07 March 2009 - 22:39
#35
Posted 15 August 2010 - 12:58
And now, for my (first) questions :
How is it possible for Soffietti to have bought an ex-Braillard car (3009) for the last races of 1934 and the following years, most notably 1935, when Ecurie Braillard was still racing two 8CMs in 1935 ? They even raced together, see for instance Pau, Tunis or Peronne.
Either Soffietti's car was not bought from Braillard, either Ecurie Braillard bought another car in 1935 to race alongside the one they kept.
Soffietti's 8CM had a chrome radiator-cowl, as did the Braillard cars. As far as I know, only the Villapadierna cars had the same treatment. Maybe something to explore ?
Villapadierna is credited with two cars, 3019 and 3020 (both dated june 1934 in Orsini). In the whole 1934 season, I have never find two 8CMs entered by Villapadierna in one race. In 1935, we have to wait for the Comminges GP on august 4 (Villapadierna and Lehoux, I have no picture) and the Nice GP on august 18 to find two spanish Maseratis. (EDIT : see correction below : 2 Masers on june 30)
Nice is interesing since Lehoux's car can be seen in Louche's "Un siècle de grands pilotes français". The car could very well be yellow (much lighter than the red Alfas and lighter than Sommer's blue Alfa). It has no chrome radiator-cowl, but the radiator often seen on 6C-34 cars, that is with a vertical division in the middle. On the same page in Louche book, Lehoux is seen driving what seems to be the same car (at least same front treatment) at the 1935 Dieppe GP. Some sources credited Villapadierna with a 6C-34 chassis 3028 from september 1935. Could it be this car ?
To sum up, we have :
- in 1934, Villapardierna supposed to have two 8CMs but only racing one
- in 1935, Ecurie Braillard supposed to have one 8CM (the other said to be with Soffietti) but racing two and Villapardierna supposed to have two 8CMs racing one and what could be a 6C-34.
Any ideas ?
Edited by ERault, 15 August 2010 - 15:28.
#36
Posted 15 August 2010 - 15:28
#37
Posted 15 August 2010 - 16:49
http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=1801169
I've also seen an American press report suggesting TASO had made inquiries about racing at Indianapolis in 1939 ...
#38
Posted 15 August 2010 - 18:02
I don't think Mathieson ever got around to using his car in competition, but it appeared with other owners in a handful of 1940s UK events before enjoying a successful career in New Zealand from 1954. It is now part of the Rettenmaier brothers' extensive Maserati collection in Germany
#39
Posted 15 August 2010 - 21:30
David, I had considered the same idea but I had doubts since I had never found a photo of a wide 8CM with Villapadierna. But now I have, so you may very well be right : in its very first race, the 1934 Penya Rhin, Grupo Vipal had a wide 8CM for Palacio. See here : http://hemeroteca.el.....acio maserati
Back to the narrow car. It was apparently still with Villapadierna for the 1935 Marne GP on july (photos of Lehoux shows a car that fits the bill), and maybe later. As Maag died on august 1934, how could he be in the chain of ownership ?
All of this however seem to indicate that Soffietti's 8CM (narrow chassis with chrome radiator cowl) could not have been one from Villapadierna, because the first one was indeed a wide chassis car and the second one was still in use with the spanish team.
Last but not least, I did some more digging. As I said, I think Villapadierna had a 6C-34 by mid-1935 which he entered for Lehoux (from photos at least Nice and Dieppe). I found some confirmation here, in a preview for the 1935 spanish GP : http://hemeroteca.el.....serati alpina
The general idea being as I understand it that since Etancelin and the V8RI were both unavailable (because of their Monza crash), Villapadierna's 6C-34 entered for Lehoux will then be entered under the Scuderia Subalpina colors. So Villapadierna indeed had a 6C-34, and according to Orsini it must be chassis 3028.
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#40
Posted 16 August 2010 - 17:15
Penya Rhin 34, and the two VIPAL cars (remember VI for Villapadierna and PAL for Palacios) standing on the box :
Monaco 1935, some images of the Villapadierna car
with Soffietti...
and then back to Penya Rhin, but in 1935...
#41
Posted 16 August 2010 - 17:21
Villapadierna is also happy. He could not have (available) for this race the 3 litres (engine-size) that Maserati was going to deliver, as they did with Palacios. That is why he raced with the 2,400 that, although being lighter, was notably less powerful.
And being this his first Grand Prix race and having finished quite honourably, he is happy. He expects to do better next year.
#42
Posted 16 August 2010 - 17:25
A first round of infos courtesy of Jose Luis Otero that has cross-checked Alberto Mallo & Monkhouse, plus the help of Javier del Arco´s "Montjuïc, 40 years of Motor Racing History at the Park Circuit" and Pablo Gimeno´s "The International Penya Rhin Grand Prix" yields as follows :
-He made his debut in 1934 at the V Gran Premio de Penya Rhin (17 june). Associated to Joaquín Palacio Power in what was called "Escudería Vipal" (obviously VI-llapadierna PAL-acio) they entered the two Maseratis 8CM that Villapadierna had bought (3019 delivered 11th june and 3020 delivered 16th june!)
Well, this is not agreed...Javier del Arco mentions that the second 8CM was not delivered on time, and that Maserati did lend Villapadierna a 4CM, the one that Taruffi has driven in Monaco (2012).
[3020 was sold by him at the end of 1934, whilst 3019 remained for much longer. According to Pablo Gimeno "In 1939 the engine was fitted to a speedcraft and the car is currently in a British citizen´s private collection]
#43
Posted 16 August 2010 - 18:38
Penya Rhin 1934 is now well covered, and indeed especially by TNF several years ago. For Penya Rhin 1935, thanks to your last photo, we can now state that Villapadierna raced his new 6C-34. That means Lehoux raced one of the team 8CMs the same day at Nancy. If 3020 was indeed sold at the end of 1934 as stated above, then it must have been the wide-chassis 3019.
#44
Posted 16 August 2010 - 18:44
#45
Posted 10 May 2011 - 10:50
#46
Posted 19 November 2022 - 16:56
The Winter, 2023 issue of Rare & Unique Vehicles magazines features the story of #3015
You can see a little preview here:
https://ceautoclassi...erati-8cm-3015/