Emeryson
#1
Posted 28 January 2003 - 18:02
I know next to nothing about this machine...but I would like to hear from those that do
Advertisement
#2
Posted 29 January 2003 - 00:24
#3
Posted 29 January 2003 - 16:57
Jenks had bought the car so that he could reunite the Duesenberg engine with the Duesenberg that is now at Brooklands.
Originally the car ran in several forms - at one time it had a supercharged Lagonda Rapier engine, the engine is still around.
When sold at auction it had a Jaguar engine in place and was a rolling chassis, e.g. there was a chassis with suspension on and Jag engine & gearbox in place and very little bodywork. It probably stirred up more interest than any other lot in the auction (certainly there were a lot of people prepared to buy it for the estimated price).
It is being restored by Cyril & Mark Linstone, Cyril worked with Paul Emery and worked on the car when it was new. They are using as much as possible of the original car.
The original Duesenberg engine is being rebuilt by Crostwhaite & Gardiner who were able to copy it, so it will be exactly as original but will be new (apparently Duesenberg only made 2 of these engines).
The guy who wrote to Motor Sport seems to have some gripe about the car, but it seems to be misplaced since there is no doubt about the history of the car and the original builder is rebuilding it, using as many original parts as possible, to original specification - which is more than can be said about most restorations.
#4
Posted 17 September 2005 - 09:46
this car built by paul Emery, and raced by himself, colin chapman (1954) and roberta conwell (born as a man and died as a woman) has rear disc brakes, front alfin drum, de dion suspension...
crystal palace, goodwood, caen, cadours, silverstone, 1956 british grand prix....
this car have an important race entries !
what do you know about this car - any photos ?
#5
Posted 17 September 2005 - 11:55
#6
Posted 17 September 2005 - 12:16
#7
Posted 17 September 2005 - 12:37
How about the 1963 USGP Canadian entered Stebro 105E - stroked and bored to 1500cc .........Originally posted by David McKinney
If the Emeryson was "important" I can't think what would be described as unimportant
#9
Posted 17 September 2005 - 13:50
http://forums.autosp...74759
In fact use the "search BB" function. You only have to type Emeryson.
#10
Posted 18 September 2005 - 12:10
Originally posted by qualibre
the Emeryson F1 engined by Alta, Aston Martin and Jaguar will be sold on auction the 25-9-2005 by osenat-fontainebleau (france).
this car built by paul Emery, and raced by himself, colin chapman (1954) and roberta conwell (born as a man and died as a woman) has rear disc brakes, front alfin drum, de dion suspension...
crystal palace, goodwood, caen, cadours, silverstone, 1956 british grand prix....
this car have an important race entries !
what do you know about this car - any photos ?
The problem is when it raced in International events it had an Alta engine, it only did a couple of races with the Jaguar engine (none were international) and then hillclimbs, that means it isn't acceptable for historic races with the Jaguar engine (maybe Goodwood would accept it since it ran there, but not Monaco etc. as implied by the auctioneers).
With the Alta engine it wasn't a bad car, being quicker than 250Fs etc., it was also the only car that Colin Chapman raced in an F1 race. Of all Paul Emery's F1 efforts it was the most promising, and would make a nice car for historic events.
When it was restored the original chassis was replaced, apparently not totally accurately, and the bodywork doesn't look much like the original. But the original chassis should come with it and the bodywork will need changing to fit the correct engine anyway so that could be corrected.
Recently it has had a Jaguar gearbox fitted which is also wrong (and the Jag engine should have fuel injection not carbs) and will need changing as well.
The problem seems to be the owner's valuation of the car, many years ago he turned down an offer around 2/3rds the current asking price - that is probably still a realistic valuation bearing in mind all the changes that need to be made to make the car acceptable.
Unfortunately if someone believes the auction blurb, saying the car is acceptable at every major historic event, then they might buy it thinking they have a bargain - not realising that it is only acceptable after considerable expenditure.
As a previous owner of 1961 Emeryson F1, 1963 Scirocco & current owner of 1966 Shannon it would fit my garage rather nicely but not at the current price!
There is a pretty good histroy of the car on 8W.
#11
Posted 19 September 2005 - 21:35
the emeryson-jaguar is a formula 1 with fia paper so where is the problem to race with the others formula 1 with fia paper in the historic monaco grand prix (or the others grand prix) ? for me there is no problem !
in the car period, as you know, the world championship is only 8 to 11 races ! but there are a lot of non-championship races ! this races are very important because the cars and the racers are important (maserati, ferrari, vanwall, connaught... moss, trintignant, hayworth,....)!
so what are the races that there are not "international" ? for me all the races are "international" !!
the jaguar engine is the last engine used in the car (before paul emery used aston martin and alta engines) so why stopping to race with the jaguar engine, we can not change the story of the car !
the car is fitted with 3 weber carburators beacause the injection is quiet impossible to go ok with the engine. the original env gearbox is with the car (as the original engine and injection).
you think that this can not be accepted at every major historic event ! i think that you make a big mistake to thinking that because your raisons are not acceptable
you want the car, but if you cannot pay the right money for this car, it seems that this car will be not for you.
it's a nice car with an interesting story (colin chapman), for a new enthousiast who will enjoyed it !
#12
Posted 20 September 2005 - 04:56
It's not Peter Morley who's being unsupportive, but the race organisers
And rightly so, in my opinion
Whether or not the car has FIA papers is irrelevant
#13
Posted 20 September 2005 - 09:21
Originally posted by qualibre
to peter morley
the emeryson-jaguar is a formula 1 with fia paper so where is the problem to race with the others formula 1 with fia paper in the historic monaco grand prix (or the others grand prix) ? for me there is no problem !
in the car period, as you know, the world championship is only 8 to 11 races ! but there are a lot of non-championship races ! this races are very important because the cars and the racers are important (maserati, ferrari, vanwall, connaught... moss, trintignant, hayworth,....)!
so what are the races that there are not "international" ? for me all the races are "international" !!
the jaguar engine is the last engine used in the car (before paul emery used aston martin and alta engines) so why stopping to race with the jaguar engine, we can not change the story of the car !
the car is fitted with 3 weber carburators beacause the injection is quiet impossible to go ok with the engine. the original env gearbox is with the car (as the original engine and injection).
you think that this can not be accepted at every major historic event ! i think that you make a big mistake to thinking that because your raisons are not acceptable
you want the car, but if you cannot pay the right money for this car, it seems that this car will be not for you.
it's a nice car with an interesting story (colin chapman), for a new enthousiast who will enjoyed it !
This will basically reinforce what David has just said.
FIA papers don't guarantee entry of a car into a race meeting, in fact they don't mean very much at all - and they will cease to be vaild in the near future, everyone will have to get the new style FIA papers for their cars.
Most race organisers want cars that are as they raced at the time and in FIA meetings that means how they raced in an international event - this is not always fair because there are a lot of important cars that did not race internationally so aren't allowed to race historically.
To put it simply this car never did a Grand Prix in its current form, it did a minor event and hillclimbs - there are a lot of ex-F1 cars that went hillclimbing in much improved form (bigger engines, different aerodynamics etc) but you have to convert them back to F1/original spec. before you can circuit race them.
Monaco are very particular about the originality of the cars they accept, and since the numbers they can accept are very small the chances of them accepting this car as it is are very small (maybe a famous driver or personality might be accepted but it would take more than the car itself).
The fact is simply that if you want to race this car in the major European race meetings (I think they are more realistic in America for example) you need to fit an Alta engine (or possibly an Aston Martin).
Also fitting 3 Webers would quite possibly give the car a performance advantage over a diesel based fuel injection system, most race organisers would not be happy about this modification either, they would probably suggest that SUs are more appropriate (if they accepted the Jag engine). And the Jag gearbox is much cheaper to run than a pre-selector which could also upset other competitors/organisers.
My reasons for saying this car will not be accepted are based on my experience of owning and running many historic race cars (including around 10 Formula 1 cars), I know that it will not be accepted at major events in its current form - as do the many other people who have looked at buying this car in the past.
I also know exactly how much an Alta F1 engine costs, because the 1955 Connaught F1 that we are running at the moment has such an engine (actually the Connaught engine is a more advanced version, but I know enough about the other version to value it).
I do not have a problem paying the right money for this car, but its value is less than the owner wants (I was offered it some time before it was entered for this auction, and even the dealer knew it was too expensive).
What is very worrying is that someone might buy this car thinking they have found a very cheap way of entering some important races, if they do that they will be very disappointed (and the auction house could find themselves in trouble because their description is incorrect).
This has happened several times before, where someone has bought a car thinking they have found a great car, only to discover that they haven't been told everything about it - it is very rare in this world to find a real bargain, especially one that is widely advertised.
(Examples are the Lotus 16 bought (by a very well known enthusiast - probably not cheap either) as an F1 car that was only ever an F2 car, a 70's F1 car that is currently for sale looks very cheap - but it has an unusual Hewland gearbox etc. etc.).
Hopefully someone will buy the car, restore it to the correct specification and race it, which would add another interesting car to the grids, but they must realise that the finished cost of the car will be far higher than the current price - and for a similar amount of money they could buy a 'better' car.
Best wishes
Peter
#14
Posted 25 September 2005 - 11:28
as you known to have an elligible with fia paper is not a guarantee to be invited to the monaco grand prix : you are right of course !
but when you have an elligible car you can ask !
a lot of car are elligible and not all are accepted to race !
#15
Posted 25 September 2005 - 11:39
Originally posted by Peter Morley
FIA papers don't guarantee entry of a car into a race meeting, in fact they don't mean very much at all - and they will cease to be vaild in the near future, everyone will have to get the new style FIA papers for their cars.
Do you know if a date has now been set for this, Peter?
#16
Posted 25 September 2005 - 14:39
Are you connected with the sale of this car? Either as owner, dealer or auctioneer? Don't get me wrong, I've no problem if you are, and apologize for asking if you are not - but full disclosure is always good
Thanks
#17
Posted 25 September 2005 - 16:25
Originally posted by David Beard
Do you know if a date has now been set for this, Peter?
No, but the way time seems to fly these days it could be on us before we realise!
(I have a (very) vague notion that it is end of 2006? But will no doubt be postponed as the system develops teething troubles!)
By the way I heard from the auctioneers.
They say that the Emeryson's race at Goodwood was International (therefore the car is acceptable), but Goodwood never held International single seater races - there is a linguistic issue here, a race might have included international drivers but if it was not ran under an international permit it does not count in the eyes of the FIA.
But they did also say the car has previously been accepted by the HGPCA, so it should be again?
Hard to know what to do - if the car turned out to be very quick with a Jag engine you can be sure the entries will dry up, it really does need an Alta engine............
#18
Posted 25 September 2005 - 17:05
Does this imply that they think it had a Jaguar engine at Goodwood? I'm fairly sure it had an Alta.Originally posted by Peter Morley
By the way I heard from the auctioneers.
They say that the Emeryson's race at Goodwood was International (therefore the car is acceptable), but Goodwood never held International single seater races - there is a linguistic issue here, a race might have included international drivers but if it was not ran under an international permit it does not count in the eyes of the FIA.
#19
Posted 25 September 2005 - 21:24
Originally posted by Roger Clark
Does this imply that they think it had a Jaguar engine at Goodwood? I'm fairly sure it had an Alta.
It raced at Goodwood 7th April 1958 when it had been fitted with the Jaguar engine, then it went hillclimbing with Robert(a) Cowell.
The injected Jaguar engine & ENV gearbox are still in the original chassis which comes with the car, presumably it was easier to replace than rebuild them.
Advertisement
#20
Posted 26 September 2005 - 06:32
You're quite right. I was confused by statement on another tread that it had a Jaguar engine at Goodwood in 1957.Originally posted by Peter Morley
It raced at Goodwood 7th April 1958 when it had been fitted with the Jaguar engine, then it went hillclimbing with Robert(a) Cowell.
The injected Jaguar engine & ENV gearbox are still in the original chassis which comes with the car, presumably it was easier to replace than rebuild them.
#21
Posted 09 March 2006 - 08:50
#22
Posted 09 March 2006 - 14:41
I presume the car is Paul Emery's first GP Emeryson which was initially fitted with a blown Lagonda Rapier motor (it was entered for the 1948 Silverstone Grand Prix but I'm not sure it started in the race) and later the 4 1/2 litre motor from the ex Whitney Staright Duesenberg Brooklands outer circuit car but minus the supercharger.
The Dusie engine was reunited with the original car in the later years of Jenks' ownership and is now in the Brooklands museum.
I recall reading an article a couple of years ago about plans to make a new Dusie engine to put in the Emeryson.
#23
Posted 09 March 2006 - 16:42
#24
Posted 09 March 2006 - 17:50
#25
Posted 09 March 2006 - 17:52
#26
Posted 09 March 2006 - 19:25
#27
Posted 10 March 2006 - 07:59
#28
Posted 10 March 2006 - 08:28
#29
Posted 10 March 2006 - 09:03
The Jaguar-powered car was a much newer one
#30
Posted 10 March 2006 - 09:41
-"Specials" by John Bolster, published in 1949: "With the advent of Formula B, Baird could see little future in a blown eleven-hundred, so he decided to have the Emerys convert it into a full-scale Grand Prix Formula car. The Rapier engine was removed, and the chassis was rebuilt during the winter of 1947 round the famous 4.5-litre, short stroke, Duesenberg, unsupercharged engine.".
-"Motor Racing Car Review 1949" by Jenkinson: "The tubular chassis frame of the Emeryson was replaced by a longer one, giving a wheelbase of 9ft as against the previous 8ft 4in.and the Duesenberg engine was installed, together with an ENV type 110 pre-selector gearbox. Front and rear suspension from the 1100cc car was used and larger brakes were fitted...However the car will continue to appear in Formula A events and meanwhile the supercharged 1100cc engine is being built into a new and lighter frame with a new form of suspension, to be used by Baird in those events in which blowers are permitted on 1100cc cars.".
-"Motor Sport March 1985": "Then Emery came across the straight eightb 4.5 Duesenberg engine from the ex-Whitney Straight car. This was bought, the compression ratio was raised and eight Amal carburettors added, raising the engine's output to around 400 bhp (sic!). The chassis of the Emeryson was modified to accept the engine but no transmission could be found to handle the power.".
-"Directory of Historic Racing Cars" by Jenkinson, published in 1987. "Paul Emery acquired the straight-eight Clemons engine from the Brooklands Duesenberg and used the original Emeryson Special as the basis for a Formula 1 car. The chassis was lengthened and the Clemons-Duesenberg engine installed, with a bigger and stronger ENV gearbox...When Baird changed his allegiance to Grand Prix Maseratis the Emeryson-Duesenberg was sold to his compatriots. They used it in Irish hill-climbs and airfield races for a number of years, during which time the chassis was shortened and the Singer IFS was removed and replaced by 2.5-litre Riley whisbones and torsion bars. It was more or less run to death and then taken apart and finally returned to England in a box. The engine was salvaged and put back in the Duesenberg chassis, from which it had been taken, while the remains of the Emeryson Special were "hung up in a roof" as one of racing's curios.".
Now believe what you want!
#31
Posted 10 March 2006 - 10:02
At the time the Singer front suspension was replaced with more substantial suspension (possibly Riley based), so the front suspension on this car could have come from that.
Cyril worked at the time with Paul Emery and knows his brother Peter (who is still alive, unfortunately Paul died), Peter gave him a lot of information about the car - it was originally Peter's project but Paul became involved when they he out of money (oddly - if I was short of money Paul wouldn't have been the most obvious call!).
Peter confirmed that they modified the chassis and suspension.
Even if they did build a new chassis for the Duesenberg (and there is no reason to believe they did) this car can't be the earlier version because it is a small tube frame (more like a space frame) - the original Emeryson had a ladder chassis (as was normal practice at the time) with large tubes.
Bobby Baird did build the Baird Griffin after the Emeryson, which was Maserati based, but that car is apparently in America so it presumably couldn't be that car either.
#32
Posted 10 March 2006 - 11:30
There is another car in existence which has some relevance to this discussion - there is a blown Rapier special known as The Emeryson Special. Presumably this is the engine from the first incarnation of the Baird Emeryson in yet another chassis?
I shall consult my copy of the Register and add what I can on Monday
#33
Posted 10 March 2006 - 12:03
Originally posted by Dutchy
The plot thickens!
There is another car in existence which has some relevance to this discussion - there is a blown Rapier special known as The Emeryson Special. Presumably this is the engine from the first incarnation of the Baird Emeryson in yet another chassis?
I shall consult my copy of the Register and add what I can on Monday
Forgot to mention that apparently several people have what is apparently the original blown (2 stage) Rapier engine!!
I'd love to hear more about this Emeryson Rapier special.
By the way the person who owns the ex-Jenks Emeryson has bought the later Emeryson that ran with an Alta engine and now has a Jaguar engine.
#34
Posted 10 March 2006 - 12:36
#35
Posted 10 March 2006 - 14:41
#36
Posted 10 March 2006 - 15:32
My connection is really with the later cars - Cyril & Mark Linstone rebuilt my 1961 Emeryson F1 car (no. 1004, which had been converted to a sports car by Robin Smith), that is now owned by Brian Ashby who is driving it at Monaco.
Since then I've had a 1963 Scirocco (no. 2 - which came from Robin Smith!) which was the result of Tony Settember taking over Emeryson and building a V8 car, that is now owned by John Hanson and Brian Redman is driving it at Monaco.
And I now have the 1966 Shannon which was Paul's last F1 project (with the Climax FPE V8 engine stretched to 3 litres), hopefully the engine will be sorted this year so it can be running fairly soon.
During my research into those cars I've come across various people who were involved with Paul Emery and his cars (both at the time and more recently), and have heard much about all of his cars.
I was at the auction when they sold the Jenkinson car - but (like many other people) was disappointed when it went beyond my budget! But through Mark & Cyril (and more recently the owner) I've heard about the car as the restoration progressed.
I was interested in the later car for a long time but the price was always un-realistic - it would have cost even more than our 1955 Connaught F1 car by the time it was finished! I assume the current owner knocked the price down to a more realistic level!
Originally the 2nd car had a 4 cylinder Aston Martin engine (can't remember if it was a prototype or 2/3rds of a 6 - then it was fitted with an Alta and eventually went to Robert/Roberta Cowell with a fuel injected Jaguar engine.
When it was restored in the UK (70's or 80's) by a 'Jaguar specialist' they made a new chassis (as people tended to do in those days) - but the original chassis remained with the car, still fitted with the injected (injection from a diesel) Jaguar engine and some suspension.
The current owner is restoring the car using the original chassis, it joins the Duesenberg engined car for which they have made the 8 cylinder 4½ litre engine!
Both of these early cars have very clear and continuous histories, including some very well known owners.
Even the later cars (which are more numerous) are pretty well known - somehting like 1 maybe 2 of the Juniors has disappeared, and at least one of the ENB F1 cars seems to have been scrapped but that is about all - I don't know much about 500s but one of them now has a body that is different to the original.
As you say none of them had great success, so 'discovering' a long lost Emeryson is not something that many people would get over-excited about!!!
I tend not to bother with the text in books, or people's memories, I prefer to rely on period photographs - on several occasions I've been able to produce period photographs (thanks to people like Ted Walker) that contradict what someone remembers or wrote.
It will be interesting to see the 48 Manx Emeryson photos (do you have any prior to it being modified?), given that we are talking about something that happened nearly 60 years ago you can't rely on someone's memory - and as someone who has had many obscure cars I know you can't rely on a journalist having spent much time paying any attention to my end of the grid!!
Since it is unlikely that Paul missed an opportunity to make money it is most likely that he found a way to 'recycle' the original front suspension when they changed it - did John Reece buy the car/parts from Paul or Bobby Baird or was there an intermediate owner?
When I last talked to Cyril (very recently) he told me that Mark had just heard from someone who had the original Rapier engine - there are quite a lot of supercharged Rapier engines but the person who has this one is fairly high profile and has had it for some time, and there won't be many engines that have the same combination of blowers, so it should be easy to tell if it is right or not.
I know that Barrie Gillies built a blown Rapier engine for a customer sometime ago (90's probably), so they are still being made.
Duncan Rabagliatti will have an amazing amount of information on the early Emerysons, have you been in contact with him?
#37
Posted 10 March 2006 - 16:02
#38
Posted 10 March 2006 - 16:45
#39
Posted 10 March 2006 - 17:45
#41
Posted 11 March 2006 - 08:38
#42
Posted 11 March 2006 - 10:44
The history of the Duesenberg car is pretty simple:
Bobby Baird got it from the Emery's and ran it with the Duesenberg engine.
When Jenkinson was rebuilding the Duesenberg he bought it for the engine, which he fitted back into the Duesenberg.
Jenkinson then gave the car to Duncan Rabagliatti who sold it at auction to the current owner.
I'm sure Mark & Cyril will be able to work out how much was taken from your car to build the Duesenberg car.
Barrie Gillies has a lot of Lagonda knowledge since his partners are big Lagonda fans, I'm sure he should be able to help with an engine - but as I said before Mark has heard from someone who might well have the original engine.
As Ted says photos of your car are eagerly anticipated, since finding missing cars and sorting out histories is one of the most interesting aspects of historic racing.
Peter
#43
Posted 11 March 2006 - 12:23
#44
Posted 11 March 2006 - 14:30
RL
#45
Posted 11 March 2006 - 15:51
#46
Posted 11 March 2006 - 16:53
I will post my photos , once my digital is back, I have already stated this fact and when my partner decides to do it as I am dont know how to do it properly. The one I have already put on in the Alta section only comes up when the link is clicked.
If you would be so kind to put on your photos as you obviously have them available, ( without charge) I presume of the 48 Dussie in 48 and as it is now in 2006, if you have any, as I have asked now twice, then you could solve any misunderstandings and your sense of smell may return.
.
#47
Posted 11 March 2006 - 16:58
#48
Posted 11 March 2006 - 17:15
You dont have any photgraghs? Do I smell a Ferret here.
Nice isnt it?
#49
Posted 13 March 2006 - 11:16
The engine number is only recorded on the bulkhead plate which of course is easily removed from the car so unless an engine change is recorded at the tiime it will become forgotten. The register only list complete cars so engines fitted to other chassis sadly aren't recorded.
The only other interesting snippet I found, and this may be a red herring, is a 2 seater special Rapier was constructed in the Emeryson works in 1950 from new original parts by a man named Dobbs. This car was called the DD Special and was registered GBL 780 in December 1950 in Berkshire.
As far as the 2 1/2 litre car is concerned I understand it was originally built in 1953 as a Formula 2 car with an Aston Martin LB6 i.e. DB2 engine linered down to 2 litres. Parts were obtained from a scrap dealer friend who bought Aston's sub standard parts! Not surprisingly relaibility was a problem and the car was renengined with an Alta for the new Formula 1 in 1955. I'm not sure when the jaguar engine was fitted but I supect the Alta was removed when Emery took on a pair of B Type Connaughts in 1958.
#50
Posted 13 March 2006 - 18:05
I wrote to Motor Sport a couple of years ago, can't remember exactly, quoting these details from a letter I have written by Baird himself.