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Lotus 48 F2


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#1 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 02 February 2003 - 04:32

I just finished a reply to Doug Nye's "Ethical Question" thread in which a number of replies had mentioned the wreckage of Jim Clark's Hockenheim car. This was interesting because after seeing a picture of Jackie Oliver's 48 (at the Nurburgring in 1967), I had just spent a couple of hours trying to locate more detailed information about this model of Lotus. About all I was able to determine was that there 4 Lotus 48's built and that they were raced by the works (or works supported) team in 1967 and 1968 and at least one was raced independently in 1969. There appears to be at least one still in existence presumably competing in vintage events.

Does anyone know where specific information can be found about the history of this model? I would like to know who raced which chassis when and what the current location and ownership of the surviving examples. (I have always assumed that what little remained of Clarks car was suitably disposed of after the investigation was completed.)

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 02 February 2003 - 08:03

Yes there were four 48s, RW
Two of them were raced by Team Ireland in 1969 and one of those has recently returned to the circuits. Not in vintage racing though - in this part of the world that is restricted to pre-1931 cars ;)
I don't have any record of the third surviving car racing after its time with Team Lotus
IIRC Autosport gave chassis numbers in some at least of its contemporary race reports

#3 Chris Townsend

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Posted 02 February 2003 - 19:24

Of the four Lotus 48s built, three debuted in the 1967 season. The main drivers in F2 for Lotus that year were Hill and Clark
but with Oliver getting an upgrade from the Lotus 41 when Clark wasn't available, and with occasional rent a drivers.
The chassis numbers for these cars in '67 are not altogether certain when it comes to determining who used what.

1968 saw a fourth chassis, debuted by Clark at Barcelona. Chassis numbers are a little more certain from here on because
some magazine reports give them, to support F1 Register data. 48 [4] was the car in which Clark was killed at Hockenheim. It did
not appear again. 48 [3] does not appear in the season, and appears to have been written off after Oliver's accident
at Vallelunga in '67

1969 The two surviving chassis are sold to Kinnane's 'Team Ireland'. Both John Watson and John Pollock seem to have used
48 [1] whilst only Pollock drove 48 [2].

1970 48 [1] goes to Barrie Smith [on the basis that his car is described as 'ex Clark' and Clark didn't drive 48 [2] if F1R
is to be believed] 48 [2] as the other surviving car is sold to Frank Keane.

1971 48 [1] appears to go to Eric Ewin.

After that the cars disappear from racing into the mists of reconstruction.
I have full results for '67 to '69 F2 if you'd like them. 1970 the cars appeared in various libre races.
Ewin's car seems to have been used in libre and a few British F.Atlantic races, but I'm still looking for information
on those races myself.

#4 Egon Thurner

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Posted 02 February 2003 - 19:56

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
I have full results for '67 to '69 F2 if you'd like them. 1970 the cars appeared in various libre races.

Chris, I'm highly interested in the history of the type 41. Can you post theses mentioned results here or mail it to me, please? I'm also interested in 1966, if that is possible :blush: .

Do you (or anybody else) know, where the 41s have gone ?

E.T.

#5 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 02 February 2003 - 19:58

:up: David and Chris,

Thanks for the info. My curiousity has been satisfied.

Regards,

Bob Mackenzie

#6 Chris Townsend

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Posted 02 February 2003 - 21:21

Egon

Do you mean Lotus 41s or 48s?

48s I can do,

41s were so numerous and in so many different formulae that it's nearly impossible.
I know the contemporary history of Oliver's 41, which went hillclimbing after 1967, and a few
F3s. I'm trying to put together a record of F.Atlantic and FB and know the identity of precisely one car
in the USA in the late '60s.

Is there a specific car you are trying to trace?

41s in F2 are as follows:
1966 none. [Mainly F3, used by Harold Krech and Joe Starkey in USA FB]
1967
41-FL-29 Walter Habegger
41-FL-30 Lotus Components for Jackie Oliver
1968
41-FL-29 Habegger and Bruno Frey [according to F1Register]
41B-FL-46 Manfred Behnke [this car reappears in 1970 driven by Richard Weber]

#7 2F-001

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Posted 02 February 2003 - 22:04

So is there any reliable history to the 48 that was entered in the (rather unhappy) Glover Trophy at the Goodwood Revival in er... what was it, '99?

#8 Bernd

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Posted 02 February 2003 - 22:11

Didn't the 48 debut, when it was brought out by Graham Hill to Australia for the tail end of the Tasman Series in 1967?

#9 Chris Townsend

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Posted 02 February 2003 - 22:45

Yes, Graham Hill drove it in the Australian GP [19 Feb]
That would be why Hill and Oliver race chassis 2 and 3 in the March '67 F2 races. Chassis 1 was still on the boat back!

#10 Ted Walker

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 16:25

A Second 48 survives in a very private collection in the uk in a totally un restored condition

#11 David Beard

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 18:59

Originally posted by Ted Walker
A Second 48 survives in a very private collection in the uk in a totally un restored condition



Hello Ted...please appear here more often!
Perhaps you might have a photo or two...?

I probably know the collector you mean. Has (or had) lots of Lotii.

#12 Bernd

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 22:48

J.D.D?

#13 David Beard

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 22:52

Originally posted by Bernd
J.D.D?


A great Lotus collector, but not who I meant.
Didn't mean to initiate a quiz. Nuff said, sorry.


#14 Chris Townsend

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Posted 03 February 2003 - 23:03

So that looks as though both of the Team Ireland cars made it through the last 30 years.
Any guesses on who got which car? Who owned the one that ran at Goodwood in '99?
Or would they both be ex-Clark by now?

#15 Ted Walker

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Posted 04 February 2003 - 16:04

The 48 that ran at Goodwood is the ex Herts & Essex Aero Club car raced by Jackie Oliver It ended up with "wellknown racing car dealer" Bobby Howlings in Manchester in the 70s,was sold to a collector in the midlands who kept it until the 90s. He sold it to John Harper who i turn sold it to its present owner. It was restored by Simon Hadfield.

#16 Chris Townsend

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Posted 04 February 2003 - 19:57

If F1 Register and magazine reports are to be believed, the ex Oliver car is 48 [1], the one raced by Hill in Australia.
This is also a car that F1 R say was used by Hill [Eifelrennen] and Clark [Zolder; Rheims; Rouen; Jarama; Karlskoga;
Keimola; Albi] in '67, then Oliver [Montjuich; Thruxton; Eifelrennen; Jarama; Zolder; Palace; Hockenheim; Tulln Langenlebarn;
Zandvoort; Rheims; Hockenheim [October]; Albi; and the Temporada] in '68. Watson [Thruxton]; Pollock [Vallelunga]

So the secret squirrel car is probably 48 [2], primarily Hill's car in 67 and 68.

Didn't every car sold in Britain in the '70s pass through Bob Howlings hands? I thought it was compulsory.

#17 Vrba

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Posted 04 February 2003 - 20:50

Originally posted by R.W. Mackenzie
....(I have always assumed that what little remained of Clarks car was suitably disposed of after the investigation was completed.)


I think that Team Lotus transporter managed to sneak through borders and customs and secretly bring the remains of Clark's wrecked car back to Britain immediately after the accident on Chapman's order. It was never a subject of investigation by German officials.
What happened to it later, I don't know.

Hrvoje

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 February 2003 - 21:45

Just to clarify...

The 48 that came to Australia only ran at Warwick Farm. It was a special deal made by Geoff Sykes to get Hill on the grid. Graham had been at the Farm for every 'International 100' except 1962, as I recall, and he was well loved by the AARC.

#19 Bernd

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Posted 04 February 2003 - 22:32

That's one expensive cameo! Hill wanted to test the car in racing conditions.
How he got Chunky to agree to ship it out to Sydney for one race beats me.

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#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 February 2003 - 22:38

Like I said... Warwick Farm thought it was worth it and paid the price.

He looked good in it too!

Mary thought so as well... and he put it on the front row of the grid. I think he broke the gearbox in the race, though... didn't it have a Mk 5 or something?

#21 Bernd

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Posted 04 February 2003 - 22:47

The gearbox gave up in practice so Hill went eel fishing. The famous picture of this made Autocourse that year.

The mechanics got it back together but it gave out on lap 25 of the race. Can you remember the sound Ray? Apparently it sounded magnificent.

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 February 2003 - 22:52

Not at all unlike an unmuffled BDA 1600, which, of course, is more or less what it was...

The following year there was a similar sound from Piers Courage's McLaren, which carried on in the hands of Niel Allen. But to that time we'd not heard the FVA before, and it did sound magic.

#23 Bernd

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Posted 04 February 2003 - 23:04

I've heard FVA's before in Historics but they've always been saddled with those terrible mufflers. It really strangles the sound.
Fortunately I've had the pleasure of unfettered DFV though. A harsh, guttural yet glorious sound.

Did you get my email Ray?

#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 February 2003 - 23:11

No... no e.mail... raybell@ramojan.com is the only one I have access to at the moment...

And yes, the mufflers do some damage all right...

#25 2F-001

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Posted 05 February 2003 - 00:50

Thanks for the info on the ''Goodwood'' 48, Ted. I don't have the programme to hand, but I seem to recall it was entered by Bob Tabor... is he the current owner? I'm sure I've seen that name associated with a few other notable cars.

#26 stuartbrs

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Posted 05 February 2003 - 00:59

Im no expert on any of this but didnt some independant expert on avaiation incidents do a thorough investigation on the Clark 48 at Chapmans request?? To exonerate the team, and more importantly Chapmans grief striken conscience? Or was that Rindt`s 72?

#27 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 05 February 2003 - 08:32

Peter Jowitt, Senior Engineer of the Experimental Aircraft Department at Farnborough, specialising in military prototype aircraft accidents, did the examination of Clark's car along with Keith Duckworth who did the engine strip examination and Chris Parry, of Firestone, who looked principally at the tyres.

Jowitt also investigated Rindt's accident.

#28 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 February 2003 - 16:01

Originally posted by stuartbrs
Im no expert on any of this but didnt some independant expert on avaiation incidents do a thorough investigation on the Clark 48 at Chapmans request?? To exonerate the team, and more importantly Chapmans grief striken conscience? Or was that Rindt`s 72?


Stuart: you might find this thread of interest in this regard -

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=44108

:)

#29 Giraffe

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 19:29

The 48 that ran at Goodwood is the ex Herts & Essex Aero Club car raced by Jackie Oliver It ended up with "wellknown racing car dealer" Bobby Howlings in Manchester in the 70s,was sold to a collector in the midlands who kept it until the 90s. He sold it to John Harper who i turn sold it to its present owner. It was restored by Simon Hadfield.


The Bob Tabor owned 48 will be raced by Simon Hadfield at Silverstone this weekend.


#30 bill p

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 14:43

Turned up these photos of 48/2 driven by John Pollock - both Copyright W Patterson

1969 Phoenix Park
Posted Image

1969 Kirkistown - note earlier high wing configuration
Posted Image






#31 bill p

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 16:45

Turned up another photo of 48/2 driven by John Pollock - both Copyright W Patterson

1969 Kirkistown
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#32 EDWARD FITZGERALD

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 20:59

Turned up another photo of 48/2 driven by John Pollock - both Copyright W Patterson

1969 Kirkistown
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Ptterson senior watching the camera man in action

#33 Simon Thomas

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 21:18

Ptterson senior watching the camera man in action

I know there is a thread about Gerry Kinnane, he really was one the most approachable people in Irish motor racing. He did not put a lot in print about his racing but I have a brief letter detailing his racing cars. Fred Smith rebuilt the Lotus 48 John Watson wrecked and also the FVAs for the team. I do not think Kevin Murphy ever drove his Lotus 48 remembering he had actually raced before WW2.
Simon
PS I sat in one of the 48s in Gerry's garage in Beechmount Avenue off the Falls Rd in Belfast in 1969.

#34 Giraffe

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 15:00

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=4372238

The car that Wattie pranged.

Lotus 48 - 1 owned by Bob Tabor, and raced by Hill, Oliver and of course Jim Clark on several occasions before John Watson famously stuffed it at Thruxton.

Edited by Giraffe, 10 June 2010 - 15:09.


#35 David McKinney

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 15:54

Lotus 48 - 1 owned by Bob Tabor, and raced by Hill, Oliver and of course Jim Clark on several occasions before John Watson famously stuffed it at Thruxton.

Or, perhaps more clearly:
Lotus 48 - 1: Raced by Hill, Oliver and of course Jim Clark on several occasions before John Watson famously stuffed it at Thruxton. Now owned by Bob Tabor



#36 Giraffe

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 09:24

Or, perhaps more clearly:
Lotus 48 - 1: Raced by Hill, Oliver and of course Jim Clark on several occasions before John Watson famously stuffed it at Thruxton. Now owned by Bob Tabor


Presumably the equivalent of a red cross on the margin of my exercise book. :well:

#37 bill p

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 09:38

Presumably the equivalent of a red cross on the margin of my exercise book. :well:


Maybe someone will soon divulge how and where 48/1 was rebuilt??  ;)

#38 EDWARD FITZGERALD

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 09:48

Maybe someone will soon divulge how and where 48/1 was rebuilt?? ;)


indeed , and no one has made comment on the subtle change to the Chapman design .

#39 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 10:11

indeed , and no one has made comment on the subtle change to the Chapman design .



I would be very interested myself in the subtle change! We restored the car some 15 odd years ago,replacing the Irish made single curve outer skin (which we still have), finding the original ZF gearbox to return the car to - as near as modern safety rules allow, taller roll hoop, bigger fire extinguisher, proper seatbelts etc - its 1967 spec. The point should be made this car has never been anything other than 48 - 1, the steering wheel is the one Jimmy (and Graham, and Jackie and John ) touched, the gearlever, the pedals etc etc all have remained absolutely as they were. It was a privilege to be asked to restore it and an even bigger one to to be entrusted to drive it.

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#40 Simon Thomas

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 14:11

I would be very interested myself in the subtle change! We restored the car some 15 odd years ago,replacing the Irish made single curve outer skin (which we still have), finding the original ZF gearbox to return the car to - as near as modern safety rules allow, taller roll hoop, bigger fire extinguisher, proper seatbelts etc - its 1967 spec. The point should be made this car has never been anything other than 48 - 1, the steering wheel is the one Jimmy (and Graham, and Jackie and John ) touched, the gearlever, the pedals etc etc all have remained absolutely as they were. It was a privilege to be asked to restore it and an even bigger one to to be entrusted to drive it.

From memory, the Watson crash in April removed two wheels and twisted rather than dented the monocoque. The repairs in Belfast took around four months and the car reappeared at Bishops Court in September, with John L'Amie, looking none the worse. There was talk Fred Smith had used the workshop of Belfast Corporation Bus Company on the Falls Road in Belfast to fabricate the new monocoque and this came out one bit at a time! Probaly true.
Simon

#41 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 14:25

The monocoque was repaired, not replaced and the only panel replaced was the outer skin on the damaged side. The good Fred had no access to a wheeling machine and so it was made with a single curve only - we replaced it with a correct double curved 'skin. Interestingly all of this repair was confirmed by Bob Birrell who although then a serving British Army officer was allowed safe passage down the Falls Road owing to his friendship with the motorsporting fratenity in Northern Ireland, in particular with Gerry Kinnane. In addition to the "repair of the repair' we also put a structure into the seat back area to properly locate the roll hoop and the seat belts - basically as we got the car the 'hoop and 'belts simply bolted to slightly stiffened tub skins.

#42 Simon Thomas

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 15:01

The monocoque was repaired, not replaced and the only panel replaced was the outer skin on the damaged side. The good Fred had no access to a wheeling machine and so it was made with a single curve only - we replaced it with a correct double curved 'skin. Interestingly all of this repair was confirmed by Bob Birrell who although then a serving British Army officer was allowed safe passage down the Falls Road owing to his friendship with the motorsporting fratenity in Northern Ireland, in particular with Gerry Kinnane. In addition to the "repair of the repair' we also put a structure into the seat back area to properly locate the roll hoop and the seat belts - basically as we got the car the 'hoop and 'belts simply bolted to slightly stiffened tub skins.

Simon
Did not mean the monocoque was replaced, it was definitely only repaired. Fred did have access to a wheeling machine in the bus depot repair shop. Mackies Engineering on the nearby Springfield Road was also of assistance to Team Ireland on occasions too. Gerry and Fred, who lived in a street opposite Beechfield Ave, had many local contacts.
Simon

#43 arttidesco

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 23:43

Would anyone like to comment on this Lotus 48 pic that has appeared on facebook :- 

 

https://www.facebook...&type=1

 

Who is obvious, but what about the where and when ?



#44 Vitesse2

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:16

Can't see the picture, Ralph. Is it perhaps in a private group?

 

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#45 arttidesco

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:03

Apologies, could be Richard try this one :- http://s5.postimg.or...595563059_n.jpg



#46 pete53

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:28

Apologies, could be Richard try this one :- http://s5.postimg.or...595563059_n.jpg

Presumably sometime in 1967 - pre GLTL colours. From the photo alone it's hard to identify where though.

 

Hill did race at Rouen that year carrying race number 8.


Edited by pete53, 25 June 2014 - 09:37.


#47 2F-001

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:44

I think that might be Pau.
That 'stucco' (or pebbledash?) on the low wall behind - and the race number 8 - seem to fit

#48 mariner

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 17:15

I dont know where it is but I pretty sure that's young Bob Dance studying the gearbox.



#49 PeterElleray

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 18:05

I dont know where it is but I pretty sure that's young Bob Dance studying the gearbox.

Billy Cowe, not Bob Dance ( i think...)



#50 arttidesco

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 21:12

There was a suggestion that the photo in the link in post #45 was taken at Kyalami but thanks to Tony post #47 everyone seems to agree Pau is more likely :up: