37 replies to this topic

[m.tanney]

  Last week I received a copy of Jimmy Piget's wonderful booklet of single seater race winners (http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=52765). On p.36, Jimmy has a list of US Formula Libre races from 1940-1964. Two of them, Glendale in 1955 (Nov. 13) and Riverside in 1957 (Nov.17), were won by a driver named Terry Hall driving a Talbot-Lago T26C. Another race, held at Pomona in 1956 (Jun.24), was won by Ignazio Lozano at the wheel of Hall's Talbot. Does anyone know any more about these races (what was the competition like?), or about Terry Hall? All I've been able to find is this: www.austin7club.org/Talbot%20Lago.htm
  The list shows another Talbot-Lago, owned by Indy and sprint car entrant Bob Estes, winning races at Santa Barbara in 1958 (Jun.11) with Ken Miles driving, and at Palm Springs in 1960 with Estes himself at the wheel. Would anyone know anything about the Estes car?
  Jimmy also lists some other California Libre races with unknown winners:
  1955: Santa Barbara (Sept.4), Palm Springs (Dec.4)
  1956: Torrey Pines (Jan.15), Pacifico (Jul.22)
  1957: Pomona (Oct.27), Palm Springs (Nov.3), Paramount Ranch (Dec.8)
  1959: Santa Barbara (May 31), San Diego (Jun.21)
  1960: Riverside (Apr.3), Pomona (May 6), Santa Barbara (May 29)
Can anyone fill in any of the winners names?

Mike

[Marcor]

The history of the Talbo-Lago T26C is well-documented during his GP career thanks to Pierre Abeillon who had written some great articles in Le Fanatique de l'Automobile, Auto-Passion and more rencently in Automobile Historique (in 2001). The list of results of 110054 are complete until Etancelin sold the car. So I just knew the car came to USA and is still there...

[Milan Fistonic]

The results in Road & Track of the Santa Barbara races in September 1955 do not show a Formula Libre event as such.

Race 11 was listed as "Unlimited Event, 9 laps 19.8 miles."

The winner was Geo. Beavis driving an Offy Special (1750) in a time of 17m 50s.

2. John Fox, Cooper-Norton, 18.00
3. Jim Trimble, Cooper Mk VI, 18.09
4. Dr. Becker, Cooper Mk V, 18.23
5, Terry Hall, GP Talbot (4500), 19.09

[Milan Fistonic]

There is a report of a race meeting at Torrey Pines in the January 1956 edition of Road & Track but it does not give a date. It can't have been Jan 15 as R&T took months to get their reports out.

Race 5 was Formula Libre and 500cc.

Only two finishers.

1. Johnny Fox, Cooper, 67.4mph
2. Harry Morrow, JBS

[Milan Fistonic]

Results of the Unrestricted and 500cc race at Glendale on Nov 13, 1955. 10 laps.

1. Terry Hall, Talbot GP, 73.8mph
2. R.J. Moore, Austin-Healey 100S
3. M.Balchowsky, Doretti-Buick

1. Leon Becker, Cooper Mk V
2. Harry Morrow, Cooper Mk VI
3. J. Trimble, Cooper Mk VI

[Milan Fistonic]

The Formula Libre race at Palm Springs reported in Road & Track in March 1956 was won by Ernie McAfee driving a Ferrari Monza.

[Milan Fistonic]

There was a Formula Libre race at a meeting held at Beverly on July 6 and 7, 1956. It was won by George Weaver driving his Maserati.

[dretceterini]

I don't think Harry Morrow ever drove a JBS, as he was an agent for Cooper...and one of the founders of Road and Track magzine. He later had a book store in Burbank, California (which still exists!!)

I think Dr.Becker's first name is Lynn, not Leon...

[cabianca]

Terry Hall was a professional ice skater of some note. These races were rare in the US because of so few single seaters on the ground here. American road racing was all about sports cars. Occassionally, however, a race for single seaters was run. These went under titles like "Unrestricted", "Unlimited" or Formula Libre. The SCCA actually had a class for them for a while, but so few were around that it went away. The races were lightly contested, with small entries. John von Neumann also drove the Talbot-Lago once, at Santa Barbara in Aug 58. By then it was owned by Otto Zipper.

[Frank S]

Milan Fistonic

There is a report of a race meeting at Torrey Pines in the January 1956 edition of Road & Track but it does not give a date. It can't have been Jan 15 as R&T took months to get their reports out.

OCTOBER 22 AND 23, 1955:
Program

Race report from the other magazine lists a few more finishers:
Torrey Pines

Frank S

Edited by Frank S, 02 August 2009 - 18:00.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
.....3. M.Balchowsky, Doretti-Buick.....

Now that sounds like a lovely thing...

Anyone got details or pictures?

[Frank S]

Ray Bell:

Now that sounds like a lovely thing...

Anyone got details or pictures?

Palm Springs 4

The bottom picture shows a tiny Doretti. A fellow who had owned it contacted me about two years ago. He said he'd never had so much fun with a car, but it was so fast he was sure he'd kill himself if he kept it, so . . .

I don't see how anyone could throw such a thing away. It must still be around somewhere.

Frank S

Edited by Frank S, 02 August 2009 - 17:59.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by cabianca
Terry Hall was a professional ice skater of some note. These races were rare in the US because of so few single seaters on the ground here.

Michael,

Would this have been the same Terry Hall who dominated Showroom Stock when it first started in the early 70's? All I know is that he was described as a veteran and he raced out of Mammoth Lakes, California.

I do recall seeing the name Terry Hall in Cal Club results for many years.


Jim Thurman

[O Volante]

Slightly OT, nevertheless ... it is not mentioned in the various publications by Abeillon, but apparently the most interesting race appearance of a Talbot Lago T26C in California occured on 28/29 June 1958 at Riverside!

As said elsewhere, I'm trying since some time to find out more about Grand Prix cars racing in the US - due to no access to period US sources unfortunately with rather mixed results. But sometimes everybody has a little luck: Imagine my surprise when I was looking through my recently aquired copy of Preston Lerner's Scarab book, finding that the brand-new Scarab competed in the Riverside Sportscar race on 28/29 June 1958 against a pure Talbot GP! No doubt - pictures show it had not even cycle-wings, and the very distinctive, non-standard "potato-chipper" front grille identifies the car as T26C 110005 - known to have been owned during that time by Otto Zipper!

And what's so interesting about that, except that Californians interpreted rules apparently not too strict? The driver is nobody else than Ken Miles! So 110005 seems to have given this great Anglo-American Sportscar driver his first (and only?) race start in a Formula 1 car!

Does somebody have a report and/or results of this Riverside event? Or know about Ken racing other Grand Prix cars??? (I'm aware he raced and developed the Dolphin Formula Junior car!)

[O Volante]

Oh, I should have added that I have for Santa Barbara, June 11, 1958 not Ken Miles, but Otto Zipper himself as the driver - otherwise my post above does not make much sense! Is there a race report on hand to confirm either way?

Apart, from Michael Lynch's "American Sportscar racing" (Hallo, hallo!) I can add that John von Neumann used 110005, entered by Otto Zipper, to win the Formule libre race at Santa Barbara on 30/31 August 1958. Interestingly, Abeillon notes that Otto Zipper owned the car, but does not mention any of these 1958 events in the race record of 110005. For its "life" in California he has only (as already mentioned) Bob Estes, with race #350, on 23/24 June 1960 at the SCCA Palm Springs meeting, no result given.

The other Californian car was T26C 110054: Owned by Terry Hall from 1955 to c. 1957, still in GP car form, then 1957/58 (exact date not known, possibly even before 1957 season) rebuilt by Conrad Scott and Jack Sutton with Sportscar body, sold to Jack Eubank, who owned it later apparently in company with Phil Carter and possibly others!

[Frank S]

There is a Formula race, including Libre, listed on the schedule of events for June 1, 1958 at Santa Barbara, but the only Formula cars I see on the entry list are F-III. Must have been a late entry, no? Miles is shown as an entry in the Zipper Estes Porsche.
Santa Barbara Program, May/June 1958


Art Evans' The Fabulous Fifties - Sports Car Races in Southern California has a small race report that mentions the Scarab and other sports car contenders, but nothing about the Talbot.

Frank S
San Diego CA
USA

Edited by Frank S, 02 August 2009 - 17:58.

[O Volante]

Many thanks, Frank - but it seems high time for new glasses ;) ! Have a look under #350 ...
Unfortunately no real help!

[Frank S]

O Volante:

Many thanks, Frank - but it seems high time for new glasses ! Have a look under #350 ...

You are welcome, and correct. The little old glasses-maker is in for some repeat trade.

While I'm here, which car do you suppose this infamous John Day five-branch-exhaust model represents?



I have this, and an unbuilt kit of the same car, but it came with only four wheels.

Frank S

[cabianca]

Regarding the 28/29 July 58 Riverside Race inquiry, Miles did indeed contest the same race as the Scarab.
Results of the Main Event on Sun were:

1. Bob Oker, Aston DBR2
2. Richie Ginther Ferrari 860 Monza
3. John von Neumann Ferrari 250 TR
4. Ken Miles Talbot-Lago
Miles was two laps behind the three leaders.

In the Sat. prelim, I only have results to third place and Miles wasn't among them. He did win the Formula Libre class, however.

[dretceterini]

the John Day model is supposed to be the LeMans winner. Easy enough to remove the exhaust sytem, add a piece of aluminum tube and a little putty and correct the problem. There are better models of the LeMans car though...and also of the GP car.

[O Volante]

Thought this thread may interest Hse 289 ....

[David Birchall]

Peter Giddings, formerly of Walnut Creek, California, owned both the Talbot Lagos in question and still owns one I think but he has moved to NZ I hear. Peter's chief mechanic/friend/co-driver/historian is John DeBoer also of Walnut Creek who would probably have history on these cars. Co-incidentally it was John's father Jarl who coined the phrase "Etceterini" He talked of registering it at one point! We should try to get john DeBoer on TNF.

[Ray Bell]

How could a Lago Talbot thread go by without this graphic reminder that one made its presence felt in Australia?



And this reminder that it was not out of place?



Oh, and here's the line out of that Santa Barbara programme, by the way...



Wonder what that Chrysler looked like?

[dretceterini]

David: John, Jarl and I have had many discussions as to which of us actually coined the term "etceterini". Personally, it doesn't matter to me. The 3 of us, along with Peter Zobian and a couple of others have become pretty much the "experts" on the subject. We all get along well... OK, Peter is more than a little difficult to do business with

[David Birchall]

I was trying to get a response and I succeeded! I'm afraid I don't know Peter Zobian. How are John and Jarl? They used to stay with me in Vancouver when they came up to race at Westwood.
Can you get John onto TNF?

[dretceterini]

I haven't seen or spoken to either John or Jarl in about a year. John answers his e-mail...eventually. I told both about this site, but I don't think they have ever posted here.

Another etceterini guy that does post here is Tony Kravanek (AntonVRS) who does restorations and has restored more Siata/Fiat 8Vs than anyone...

Peter Zobian is in central California, and owns a number of etceterinis including the "Goldmanini", plus some French equivalants

[dretceterini]

Just bringing the thread back to the top so David sees my response....

[David Birchall]

Many thanks for the email addresses but the info you sent me has disappeared! I presume "they" edit out other peoples information?

[dretceterini]

I'm not quite understanding what you are saying. It appears that John DeBoer's IICAR site no longer exists. It remained pretty much the same for about 2 years before it disappeared. I don't know if either e-mail works, as I haven't e-mailed John or Jarl in some time...

[Frank S]

Another F-Libre Talbot sighting in California: Pomona, January31/February 1, 1959 program listing, still No. 350.



Entry list page 3

There were no other F-Libre entries. I have no idea if the No.350 car was entered in the Formula race (Two F-IIs and a number of F-IIIs signed up).

The formula and ladies races may have been combined, as they often were; however, that circumstance was usually reflected in the Schedule Of Events, and it is not, here. The separate or combined Ladies' races are on most previous and many subsequent events' schedules.

January 31/February 1, 1959 Pomona Road Races Program


Frank S

Edited by Frank S, 02 August 2009 - 17:56.

[O Volante]

Many thanks, Frank!
... but who is Linda Scott?

[Ray Bell]

Can I start the guessing?

In California... hmmm... lemme see... Randolph's daughter?

Actually, if she was the driver, would she have been the only ever female driver of a Lago Talbot?

[David McKinney]

Linda Scott had a big hit in 1961 with "I've Told Every Little Star"

[Ray Bell]

Why hasn't she told me?

Aren't I sweet enough?

[dretceterini]

I believe the owner of the Lago at the time of the Linda Scott entry was Otto Zipper, who was involved with Porsches and had a Porsche dealership at a later date.

[Frank S]

A change of Entrant, a change of number, a change of class:
Talbot-Lago at Hourglass Field, June 1959


You reckon they bolted-on the 'wings' and had a go?

Is it a different car?

Who are those guys?



Frank S

[O Volante]

Well done again, Frank!
However, this is indeed a different car - the Zipper car, with it's very distinctive, non-standard potato-chipper front grille is s/n 110005, while the one you have found this time is the ex-Hall car, s/n 110054.
The guys: amateurs from California, I would think; can't add anything special ...

[ron6827]

To add to the complication of this thread is the fact that there were three Talbot-Lagos racing in Southern California during this time
period.

Bob Estes - Otto Zipper GP drivers: Estes, Ken Miles, Linda Scott

Bob Estes - Otto Zipper two seater ex Le Mans Levegh car, drivers: Otto Zipper, Linda Scott

Terry Hall GP after racing the car as a open wheeler, Hall had this car converted to a sports car with Sutton body
Drivers: Hall, Eubanks and several others

Ron Cummings, California