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The Monza banking


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#1 cabianca

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Posted 12 February 2003 - 16:01

What is the present status of the banking at Monza. Has the proposed teardown ever taken place?

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#2 David M. Kane

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Posted 12 February 2003 - 16:10

Several years ago there was movement led by some Englishmen to save the banking, but I haven't heard lately how successful they were. At the time, it seemed like a fairly well-organized effort.

#3 joe twyman

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Posted 12 February 2003 - 16:25

The banking was still there in September, when i was at the Italian Grand Prix. I managed to walk through the woods and get up onto the banking at the exit of the Parabolica. Apart from a few marshals I was the only one there. Due to the elevation, the position where i was standing enabled me to see the cars exiting the Parabolica and motor all the way down the pit straight.

#4 tonicco

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Posted 12 February 2003 - 23:40

David M. Kane wrote: Several years ago there was movement led by some Englishmen to save the banking, but I haven't heard lately how successful they were. At the time, it seemed like a fairly well-organized effort.




As far as I remember, the campaign to save the Monza banking goes back to the Summer of '98 and was led by Chris Balfe, ex-Planet F1 and now Pitpass.com owner/editor.

#5 TODave2

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Posted 13 February 2003 - 22:00

There's a bit in this month's F1 Racing that says...

"...and a section of the original circuit's banking still survives"

(my bolding). This lead me to believe that most of it had actually been taken down. Is that not the case then...?

#6 WGD706

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Posted 13 February 2003 - 23:08

Here's a link to a Japanese site that has some photos of the banking from last year; from the looks of them, I'd say they're right past the pits.
http://www.news-pub....pt/02r15_1.html

#7 gdecarli

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 21:20

Originally posted by TODave2
There's a bit in this month's F1 Racing that says...

"...and a section of the original circuit's banking still survives"

(my bolding). This lead me to believe that most of it had actually been taken down. Is that not the case then...?

Old Anello Alta Velocità (High Speed circuit) is still there. I have been there on June 22nd with my camera and I took several photos; they are on my website - www.gdecarli.tk (go to Tracks - Italy - Monza).

Original layout of chicanes built on 1965 is disappeared and entrance of Curva Nord Alta Velocità (North high speed curve, the first one) is covered by a tribune. Bankings are abandoned, opposite straight has a wonderful tarmac because they made some test for the road circuit some years ago.
All Monza history is still there but old high speed track (destroyed in 1938) and Curve in porfido (porphiry bends), canceled in 1955 when Parabolica and new High Speed oval were built.

Ciao,
Guido

#8 Gary C

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 21:21

as far as I know (and I was atlast year's Italian GP) nothing has been taken down at all

#9 Gary C

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 21:22

..............apart from the shops behind the pits, which a bit of a shame in itself

#10 911

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Posted 26 July 2003 - 04:19

If & when I ever get to Europe, one of the places I want to go is Monza just to see the bankings. I was very young when I saw the movie Grand Prix, and those bankings have always made an impression on me.

#11 wildman

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 05:44

Was at Monza for the World Superbike round in May, and the banking is still there and steep as ever. And despite the construction of the new pit lane complex and new souvenir shops behind the paddock, some of the old garages at the north end of the paddock still survive.

#12 Frank S

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 16:06

Teemu Mottonen has been at it again, with his usual plethora of photos from Monza.

A big selection of Old Banking views is included.

Teemu's Monza

#13 Mawerick

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 16:35

Satellite photo of Monza, during this years race:

http://www.euspaceim...monza-Itlay.jpg

#14 eldougo

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 01:19

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mawerick
[B]Satellite photo of Monza, during this years race:

:wave: Great pic ther Mawerick ,It sure has bought back memories of 1976 i rode a Vespa around it while we where waiting for parts to arrive from UK. I guess i did about 3 laps it is SO STEP in places you can't even walk you have to crawl to get to the armco rail at the top UNREAL
that they used to drive round there The surface is very rough it tyre noise must have been quite high . GREAT FUN :up: Then in 79 i had a125 yamaha to use so in for a few more laps GREAT but
this time a friend joined me on his honda and it was in the dark using the lights Even better FUN.

#15 Wolfie242

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 11:24

Originally posted by Mawerick
Satellite photo of Monza, during this years race:

http://www.euspaceim...monza-Itlay.jpg



Very nice picture. Do you know if there are similar pictures from other tracks as well?

#16 JDeRosa

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 11:43

Originally posted by gdecarli
Old Anello Alta Velocità (High Speed circuit) is still there. I have been there on June 22nd with my camera and I took several photos; they are on my website - www.gdecarli.tk (go to Tracks - Italy - Monza).

Original layout of chicanes built on 1965 is disappeared and entrance of Curva Nord Alta Velocità (North high speed curve, the first one) is covered by a tribune. Bankings are abandoned, opposite straight has a wonderful tarmac because they made some test for the road circuit some years ago.
All Monza history is still there but old high speed track (destroyed in 1938) and Curve in porfido (porphiry bends), canceled in 1955 when Parabolica and new High Speed oval were built.

Ciao,
Guido


great site!!
Grazie

#17 gdecarli

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 11:44

Originally posted by Wolfie242
Very nice picture. Do you know if there are similar pictures from other tracks as well?

I agree, this is the best aerial ortho photo I know about Monza.

I like such photos and I'm looking for them as well and some months ago I started a thread about here on TNF.
On my website (direct link: click here) I have links to sites like Terraserver or Terradesk. If you know exact location of track yor are looking for, you can look for its photo.
Location can be found thanks to racingcircuits.net or - for some circuits - on my pages I added useful data (i.e. latitude and longitude) to input on such sites.

The best one is Terradesk, it has 3D photos of the whole Nederlands (so for us it means Zandvoort, Assen, ...) and about some foreign cities. Unfortunately it's in Dutch, but I could use it easily even if I can't speak a single word in Dutch.

Ciao,
Guido

#18 gdecarli

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 12:06

Originally posted by JDeRosa
great site!!

Thank you!

Posted Image
(Curva Nord Alta velocità, click on thumbnail for open page on my site where you can find all other photos)

Teemu Mottonen's photo are great as well!

Ciao,
Guido

#19 dolomite

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 14:11

Facinating pictures on your site, Guido, I hadn't realised there were so many old sections of Monza track still in existence.

I have a pre-war book called 'Motor Racing' by Earl Howe, published I believe in about 1939, which includes some maps and descriptions of various circuits at that time. Here is how he describes Monza (there is no map unfortunately) :-

"Monza is partly a track and partly a road circuit. The principal features of the track are large-radius bends with very low banking, which will not permit cars to go round at anything like the speed of which the modern racing car is capable. This opens out into a flat road circuit with a series of fairly sharp bends and corners, which are hardly super-elevated at all. For ten out of its fourteen kilometres the track proceeds through woods and the trees are fairly close up to the road; the result of this is, should the car leave the track, it is almost certain to hit a tree. I think I am correct in saying that Monza holds the unenviable reputation of having brought about the death of between twenty and thirty of the world's best drivers due to this cause.

The track is beautifully laid-out and its surroundings are most attractive. There have been many proposals for modifying the track and the races held on it, but so far as I am aware up to the present this has not been done.

The record lap speed of the track is not very high, being only in the region of 130 m.p.h. Like all tracks of this nature, when wet it becomes very slippery. The surface is a sort of very coarse tarmac.

I myself regard the insufficient banking on the two main bends of the track, and the fact that a large proportion of it runs through woods, as being its most dangerous features, and I believe that, if it is impossible to provide banking sufficient to take the most powerful racing car at the peak of its performance, it would be better if the banking were done away with altogether. Certain, however, is that any driver who enters for a race at Monza should be a man of great experience, otherwise the way to disaster is easy."



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#20 gdecarli

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 15:50

Originally posted by dolomite
Facinating pictures on your site, Guido, I hadn't realised there were so many old sections of Monza track still in existence.

As you can see, only old bankings, Vedano bends and olds chicane have been canceled. Old banking was destroyed in 1938 (I don't know why they didn't simply decide to remove them), Vedano bends in 1955, because this area is used for new banking.

I have a pre-war book called 'Motor Racing' by Earl Howe, published I believe in about 1939, which includes some maps and descriptions of various circuits at that time. Here is how he describes Monza (there is no map unfortunately)

It's an interesting description, as he says...

For ten out of its fourteen kilometres

Monza was never 14 km long, only original proposal but it was changed after some days and shortened to well known 10 km layout. Besides, in 1939 old bankings were already canceled, so of course...

There hane been many proposals for modifying the track and the races held on it, but so far as I am aware up to the present this has not been done.

this was not true in 1939. Maybe he was quite unluck :)
His comments about low banking are quite funny if you think new babking built in 1955... :)

Thank you very much for this article

With reference to "some maps and descriptions of various circuits" included in that book, is there something still unpublished?

Ciao,
Guido

#21 dolomite

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 18:24

Originally posted by gdecarli
As you can see, only old bankings, Vedano bends and olds chicane have been canceled. Old banking was destroyed in 1938 (I don't know why they didn't simply decide to remove them), Vedano bends in 1955, because this area is used for new banking.It's an interesting description, as he says...Monza was never 14 km long, only original proposal but it was changed after some days and shortened to well known 10 km layout. Besides, in 1939 old bankings were already canceled, so of course...
this was not true in 1939. Maybe he was quite unluck :)

I don't know the exact publication date of the book. It's possible the description was written in 1938, before the rebuild.

His comments about low banking are quite funny if you think new babking built in 1955... :)

Thank you very much for this article

With reference to "some maps and descriptions of various circuits" included in that book, is there something still unpublished?

Ciao,
Guido

I dug the book out initially to see if it had a map of Monza. Unfortunately there is no map, only the description I posted.
The maps included in the book are Monaco, Nurburgring, Avus, Le Mans, Berne, Montlhery, Brooklands, Donington, Crystal Palace, Ards, and the Mille Miglia.

#22 RTH

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 18:45

Fascinating set of photographs - thanks for bringing them to us .

#23 911

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 20:03

gdecarli,

Please check your PMs. thanks.

911

#24 Flying Panda

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Posted 20 September 2003 - 06:52

Originally posted by Wolfie242
Very nice picture. Do you know if there are similar pictures from other tracks as well?

DNQ's website - http://cfm.globalf1....erial/index.htm

#25 Vrba

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Posted 25 October 2003 - 19:56

Originally posted by Gary C
..............apart from the shops behind the pits, which a bit of a shame in itself

They were moved further towards the back straight. I visited Libreria Autodromo this year.

Hrvoje

#26 caneparo

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 02:27

Great pics G. De Carli. I would add my personal experience as I was in monza in 2000gp and had a ticket for the straight places; i remember that to go to parkings i had to drive into the anello alta velocità. A great experience. :D

#27 gdecarli

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 08:44

What was you best time? And your max speed on bankings? :lol:

It would be a record if your best time was less than a week: before complete a single lap, you have to remove some tribunes :lol:

More seriously, this could be an interesting use for the old high speed circuit, like at Nürburgring: drive on the legend! Maybe a little dangerous... :) but with some limitation (i.e. drive only on lower section of banking) could be OK.

Ciao,
Guido

#28 caneparo

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 17:45

It would be very good if that was open as historic gp. I have no knowledge about the circuit.
You are surely more xpert han me G. De Carli but there were rumors they want to destroy the anello.
Turning on funny mode i could take a timing only for half of the anello, i think it's fun but could turn dangerous with a non tuned car. I saw silly things like guys trying to climb the curve just by running. :D
Goodbye
Antonio

#29 gdecarli

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 02:35

Originally posted by nigel5 on Almost Moves -2 thread

Guido, I went to your site : Terrific.
But, why some people wants to destroy the Monza banking :eek: :eek: :eek: ? From my point of view, it's ridiculous.
Why these banking are not used to organise an Historical race ?

Well, today would be difficult to use old Circuito Alta Velocità because of first chicane tribune placed at the beginning of Curva Nord (nord banking). However track condition is quite terrible. It would be great to have a historical race or at least a parade!

They want to destroy it because Monza circuit is in a wonderful park and they want to use this area for new trees. I think trees are very important, expecially near Milano, but this is quite a ridiculous question: I don't think they are going to plant a new forest 10 meters wide and 3 km long! :)

I think the real question has nothing to do with circuit, trees and historical races, but it's only a political question. Monza had always had such problem (first time was in 1922, few days after initial works begun!) but it's one of the oldest circuit still in use and the one more similar to original layout: let's hope for its future!

Ciao,
Guido

#30 Thodore33

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 17:36

Originally posted by gdecarli
Well, today would be difficult to use old Circuito Alta Velocità because of first chicane tribune placed at the beginning of Curva Nord (nord banking). However track condition is quite terrible. It would be great to have a historical race or at least a parade!

They want to destroy it because Monza circuit is in a wonderful park and they want to use this area for new trees. I think trees are very important, expecially near Milano, but this is quite a ridiculous question: I don't think they are going to plant a new forest 10 meters wide and 3 km long! :)

I think the real question has nothing to do with circuit, trees and historical races, but it's only a political question. Monza had always had such problem (first time was in 1922, few days after initial works begun!) but it's one of the oldest circuit still in use and the one more similar to original layout: let's hope for its future!

Ciao,
Guido


Guido, thze Monza banking have all my support.
Monza really should organised an historical race like here in Monte-Carlo. I read the reason why thebanking may be destroyed but I hope people will support, perhaps thanks an associaton, these banking and the Nigel5 idea of an historical race is wonderfull.

#31 gdecarli

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 23:06

Théodore33, first of all happy birthday :clap:, even if I'm few minutes late!

As I have already written, I'd like to see an historical race or parade on the old circuits, but don't forget Monza is in Italy and we Italians are quite strange :)

The more important campaign for saving old track came from abroad (England, IIRC). I don't know if it could save it, but such decision are quite slow and for sure in future somebody else will ask again its demolition.

It seems here in Italy this is not an important question, there are to politics interest on the park, but don't forget that it was quite sure that Autodromo would have been closed at end of 1970s... let's hope!

Ciao,
Guido

#32 gdecarli

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 10:02

:up: :up: Latest news - from La Gazzetta dello Sport (Italian main sport magazine), February 2nd 2004

Salve le curve sopraelevate di Monza
La pista d'alta velocità lombarda non verrà abbattuta

MONZA - La pista d'alta velocità dell'autodromo di Monza con le sue due curve sopraelevate non verrà abbattuta. Sarà riportata all'antico splendore con un ripristino graduale, visto che i soprintendenti milanese e regionale si sono pronunciati per la conservazione. Di Francesco e Artioli hanno anche colto l'occasione per chiedere all'amministrazione monzese di rivedere il rapporto tra l'autodromo e il Parco per "pensare in modo diverso il rapporto".


This is a rough Google translation:

Old banked curves at Monza have been saved
High speed track will not demolished


MONZA - old high speed track at Autodromo di Monza and its two banked curves will not demolished. It will be brought back to the old splendor with a progressive restoration, as local supervisors agreed for the its conservation. Di Francesco and Artioli asked the local administration to change the relationship between the circuit and the Park in order "to think the relationship in a different way".
:clap: :clap: :clap: :up: :up: :up:

More info (in Italian) also on La Repubblica (one of the most important Italian newspaper)

Ciao,
Guido

#33 Vrba

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 10:13

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm really happy the banking will remain.

Hrvoje

#34 DOHC

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 13:05

Great news! Congratulations!

#35 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 13:23

Marvellous news! Now, if the French can just be persuaded to change their minds about Montlhery ....

#36 jj2728

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 13:35

excellent news!.....now i must go back for a grand prix..... :up:

#37 VAR1016

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 13:40

The Video "A Gentleman's Motor-Racing Diary (1955-1959)" contains one or two good sequences from the 1956 Italian Grand Prix, showing the likes of Fangio and Castellotti plus others on the Monza banking.

The shots of the two Lancia-Ferraris are especially thrilling - even if the soundtrack is rubbish....

PdeRL

#38 jonpollak

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 13:42

Great news...
I loved climbing all over the sopraelevate
It is damn steep as well...had to hang on to the armco at the top!!!

People still spray graffitti all over it as you can see on the old crossover

Jp

#39 FBi

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 19:06

Great that the old banking is saved,
Even better (When done ok) that it gets restored. :up:

People still spray graffitti all over it as you can see on the old crossover



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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#40 Cal

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 00:21

That is great news indeed. I really enjoyed walking the banking when I was there last year.

Cal.

#41 Svend

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 02:11

Awesome! I camped right next to it in 2001 for a week and it is just a magnificent contstruction :clap:

#42 SEdward

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 13:52

This is the best news I have read for a long time.

Mind you, having seen the Monza banking at very close quarters, I would have thought that it is beyond repair. Wouldn't fixing it destroy the romance of the thing?

Another thought. I live just down the road from Montlhéry, which I have also visited many times. On a wholly speculative and subjective basis and according to no more than my sensations when standing beneath both of these wonderful edifices, it seems to me that the banking at Montlhéry is considerably higher than the banking at Monza.

I managed to run to the top of the banking and grab the armco at Monza, but I have never succeeded at Montlhéry.

Does anyone have dimensions or statistics to back this up (pushing the TNF envelope)?

Edward.

#43 Racer.Demon

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 15:59

More news here:

http://www.pitpass.c...cfm?newsid=8548

BTW, it confirms what Doug recently said about Verstappen being time-warped a half-century into the future.

#44 panzani

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 14:09

There are 5 images taken yesterday on the Atlas Photo Gallery. The banking seems to be in good conditions bar the graffitti.

#45 MCH

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 15:40

That piece of "damon" grafitti has been on there for a pertty long time already.

#46 Doug Nye

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 18:13

Originally posted by SEdward
On a wholly speculative and subjective basis and according to no more than my sensations when standing beneath both of these wonderful edifices, it seems to me that the banking at Montlhéry is considerably higher than the banking at Monza.


Possibly because much of the Monza banking structure is half sunk below surrounding ground level and only half raised above it?

DCN

#47 MCH

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 12:51

Originally posted by SEdward Does anyone have dimensions or statistics to back this up (pushing the TNF envelope)?


Well, I stumbled across this Italian site a while ago, it has some cross section drawings of the Monza banking on it, including dimensions.

http://www.modelfoxb...opraelevata.htm

#48 SEdward

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 12:26

DCN,

That must be it. A case of missing the obvious, I'm afraid. The banking at Montlhéry is built from ground level upwards, while part of the Monza banking sunk is below ground level.

Edward.

#49 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 15:54

Originally posted by SEdward
On a wholly speculative and subjective basis and according to no more than my sensations when standing beneath both of these wonderful edifices, it seems to me that the banking at Montlhéry is considerably higher than the banking at Monza.

I managed to run to the top of the banking and grab the armco at Monza, but I have never succeeded at Montlhéry.

Does anyone have dimensions or statistics to back this up (pushing the TNF envelope)?


No stats Edward, but I am pretty sure Monthlery is/was (is it, yes/no?! :cry: ) far higher than the Monza one. I reached and grabbed the Monza Armco as well, Monthlery I wouldnt dare to even think...

#50 SEdward

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:34

Arjan,

Don't fret, it's still there...

Edward