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Another mystery car to identify


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#1 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 19:39

Can anyone tell me what this is? It is taken from Paul Johnson's photo albums (with permission, of course) and he believes it was taken at Langhorne in the early 60s.

Posted Image

It looks very familiar to me but I can't place it.

Allen

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#2 dbltop

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 20:13

It kind of reminds me of the Mickey Thompson Indy car. Maybe its a prototype?

#3 antonvrs

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 20:29

The nose looks very Lotus 22 like to me and it's got a small block Chevy in it.........
I know there were numerous Lotus/Lola/Brabham "copies" built in the early 60's. Having had one of the early Thompson cars in my shop for restoration in the late '80s I'd be willing to say it's definitely one of those.
Anton

#4 fines

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 16:28

You don't see terribly much, but to me it looks like the 1963 Ray Mann Special, built by someone called Burnett (probably not T. Bone B.;)). But I can't see it running with #2, and as late as 1965 at Langhorne, which was dirt before that. Actually, I don't think it's Langhorne at all, since the railing there looked quite different (it didn't touch the grounds, for starters). Maybe early testing somewhere else?

#5 eldougo

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 23:14

;) Check out the seat belt he is wearing ------------ Early 60,s may be not. :up:

#6 Walter Zoomie

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 00:53

Posted Image

Except for the Ford power in this sled, I think the cars' designs are very similar. This is Eddie Sachs at Indy, 1964. Note the suicide fuel tanks! :eek:

BTW...that Paul Johnson guy is a mangy Yank cur, a shifty character if there ever was one! ;)

#7 antonvrs

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 01:34

It appears to me that the upper radius rod in the rear on the Sachs car runs to hub center level and the similar link on the first car runs to a point above hub center level.............?
Anton

#8 Gerr

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 03:27

I agree with Fines, the only (lousy) photo I have of the Burnett-Chev looks very, very similar, but it is a 3/4 view from the front, taken at Trenton in 1963.
Same seatbelt mounts, nose, tall tyres, bolt-on wheels, huge steering wheel, the angled forward stays on the rollbar, dark colour, the pipe running length-wise on the fuel-tank and the engine.
But the roll-hoop is a little higher, and has #87 on the nose (driver Chuck Rodee's traditional number).
A later photo of the same car?

The only other car that looks even to close to it is Len Sutton's Vollstedt-Offy of 1964ish. Same general shape, similar roll-hoop, also a tube frame and also had that pipe running along the fuel-tank. I'm going to speculate a little here. If the Burnett, in Burnett-Chev is Seattle's Stan Burnett, could this car been refined into or copied (and improved) by Rolla Vollstedt (from Portland, Oregon) and his fabricator, Grant King (from Victoria, BC) for 1964? A Pacific North West design conspiracy?

Walter, the picture you have shown is a Halibrand. It's not a tube-frame chassis.

Eldougo, what's wrong with the seatbelt?

#9 eldougo

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 07:10

:confused:
quote GERR.

Eldougo, what's wrong with the seatbelt?
----------------------------------------

I thought it was a bit early for them what year did they start wearing them in INDY racing.

:blush:

#10 fines

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 11:05

Originally posted by Walter Zoomie
Except for the Ford power in this sled, I think the cars' designs are very similar. This is Eddie Sachs at Indy, 1964.

:confused: I don't see any similarity between those two cars! Must be my eyes...

Ah, I see: both have four wheels... :rolleyes:

Re Gerr, yes, the roll-over bar is different. Maybe they modified it after early testing? It was the time that safety consciousness was beginning to take a grab on car's designers - remember the roll-cage on the Vince Conze Special? I believe it was built the same year - the first roll-cage on an open-wheeler ever?

There was another car that looked pretty similar to this one, the Ralph Taylor Chevrolet of 1965.

Eldougo: seat belts in Indy Cars? Late Fifties, I'd guess. By the early sixties they were universally adopted.

#11 bobbo

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 14:16

Originally posted by Walter Zoomie
Posted Image

Except for the Ford power in this sled, I think the cars' designs are very similar. This is Eddie Sachs at Indy, 1964. Note the suicide fuel tanks! :eek:

BTW...that Paul Johnson guy is a mangy Yank cur, a shifty character if there ever was one! ;)


Walt:

IIRC, that thing that looks like a fuel tank is actually an oil tank. I sort of recall that a lot of the Roadsters (front engined Indy cars) had external oil tanks and a few of them there newfangled rear engined ones did, too.

Damn! I'm starting to be :blush: :blush: one of those "nit-pickers" I dislike so much!! Hopefully someone can confirm/refute this.

Bobbo

#12 Walter Zoomie

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 14:30

Originally posted by fines

:confused: I don't see any similarity between those two cars! Must be my eyes...

Ah, I see: both have four wheels... :rolleyes:


I had high hopes that this site wouldn't be another 7th grade (7th Gear). Guess I was wrong on more than one account. Who are you, Willy friggin' Messerschmidt? :confused: :( ;) :blush: :cry: :mad: :kiss:

#13 fines

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 15:21

Bobbo, don't you think this is just a tad oversize for an oil tank?;)

Originally posted by Walter Zoomie
I had high hopes that this site wouldn't be another 7th grade (7th Gear). Guess I was wrong on more than one account. Who are you, Willy friggin' Messerschmidt? :confused: :( ;) :blush: :cry: :mad: :kiss:

:confused:

Ahem, sorry if I stepped on your toes, that wasn't my intention! I was really confused by your comment - if you look close, you'll see that there's really not much likeness between these two cars.

Maybe I should have forgotten about the :rolleyes: smiley... Sorry! BTW, who's Willy Messerschmidt???

#14 Walter Zoomie

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 15:28

Fuh-get about it. No blood, no foul. Willy was a famous German aerospace engineer/designer. My attempt at sick humor. ;)

I still think the cars look very similar, at least outer skin-wise, windscreen, steering wheel placement, driver orientation, etc. But that was, and still is, par for Indy cars. They copy each other like crazy.

#15 bobbo

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 15:40

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fines
[B]Bobbo, don't you think this is just a tad oversize for an oil tank?;)


Yeah, I thought so, too, but I found some old car mags and they have similar shots of other Champ cars and they (the tanks) were labelled as OIL tanks. However the cars were all Offenhauser powered. I will have to look deeper in my junk.

You know, this TNF stuff not only keeps me honest, it forces me to improve my knowledge base.

Maybe that's the whole idea!

THanks fines! :up: :up:

Bobbo

#16 Ted Walker

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Posted 23 February 2003 - 17:17

Alan It COULD be the Canadian built SADDLER ?????

#17 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 February 2003 - 23:07

Originally posted by Ted Walker
Alan It COULD be the Canadian built SADDLER ?????

Ted

Really!? I don't suppose you have a picture of the Saddler do you?

Allen

#18 Don Capps

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Posted 24 February 2003 - 03:10

Posted Image

When I saw this photo, bells started going off. I couldn't figure it out despite the Burnett and Rodee references. Then it finally hit me -- 1963 Trenton 200. The side oil tank was painted and the number was Rodee's "87," but the wheels and everything else matches, so it should be the Burnett - Chevrolet. As to where this particular picture was taken, if it was 1963, then it certainly wasn't Langhorne since it was still dirt then. Possibly taken at a shakedown run at ??

#19 eldougo

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Posted 24 February 2003 - 07:05

;) Regarding bobbo words on the OIL tanks ,i agree with him the BIG tanks would have been used to extend the life of the oil at high RPM ,an as you can see it has fin,s on the side to cool
the oil,the theory being the longer time away from the motor the tempeture drops down.to held
the MOTOR last the distance. :up:

_____________________________

Thanks FINES late 50,s i never thought they had them until mid 60,s.

______________________________

Cheers .eldougo.

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#20 Gerr

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 13:34

I ran across a tiny picture of the 1962 Zink turbine car. It has a lot of similarities to this car and the Burnett/Ray Mann car. Does anyone else have any photos of the the turbine that they can compare to Allen's photo?

#21 Don Capps

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 13:49

Originally posted by Gerr
I ran across a tiny picture of the 1962 Zink turbine car. It has a lot of similarities to this car and the Burnett/Ray Mann car. Does anyone else have any photos of the the turbine that they can compare to Allen's photo?


I am sure I have at least a few of the Zink turbine somewhere in my materials. Not sure how good they are, but I will try to take a look as soon as I can.