Jump to content


Photo

Romania 1938 & Hans Stuck's Auto Union


  • Please log in to reply
93 replies to this topic

#51 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 February 2003 - 13:58

Originally posted by Vitesse2


But what did the rest of it look like?


Quite disappointing for you I´m afraid. Just a standard BMW 328 stripped. Will post some pictures this evening when I have returned from the office.

In the BMW archive there is only this single picture from 1938 when the car still was quite unmodified, taken at Villa Real / Portugal in 1938:

Posted Image

Advertisement

#52 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 28 February 2003 - 14:00

That archive contains some stunning pictures! I'll post some of them in a new thread.

#53 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 February 2003 - 17:49

Originally posted by uechtel

But alas, no sign of the Auto Union. Only the car in the background of the second picture seems to be of Saxonian origin. An Audi?

Perhaps I should leave that to our Auto Union experts here


I was impressed by the pictures, that I didn't saw the question :blush:

It's a Wanderer W 24. Not an Audi 920. No a Wanderer, look like a protype of the 1940 series.

#54 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 February 2003 - 17:57

As promised:

Collection of Cristea pictures from 1939:


Posted Image

Chimay

Posted Image

Nürburgring (race won by Cristea against all the NSKK/works-cars!)

Posted Image

Nürburgring again

Posted Image

Schotten

In sports car trim he used these cycle-wings. I think he removed the mudguards for better visibility. If it was for lightweight only, then he could have done that at the rear, too.

#55 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 February 2003 - 18:01

It's a Wanderer W 24. Not an Audi 920. No a Wanderer, look like a protype of the 1940 series. [/B]


Anyway, at least a strong indication, that they had indeed been there. Certainly not a part of the BMW team...

#56 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 28 February 2003 - 20:09

Originally posted by uechtel


Anyway, at least a strong indication, that they had indeed been there. Certainly not a part of the BMW team...


Thought it was an Audi Front 225, but Holger's right. The windscreen wipers are a giveaway, they're below the windscreen on the Front and attached to the roof on the Wanderer.

But I wouldn't conclude from this that AU was there. I just compared the pictures and it looks more like a 1938 model to me. Might have been someone who just happened to live (and park) there.

#57 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,052 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 28 February 2003 - 21:58

As I follow this with interest, totally fascinated in fact...

Who is this Cristea? Why haven't I heard of such an ace before? Did he race post-war?

#58 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,774 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 February 2003 - 22:51

Originally posted by Ray Bell
As I follow this with interest, totally fascinated in fact...

Who is this Cristea? Why haven't I heard of such an ace before? Did he race post-war?


An example of a big fish in a small pond, I suppose. OTOH, when he did venture out of his pond, he proved he could mix it with the even bigger fish. He and Jean Calcianu were just about the only Romanians who hit the road to race elsewhere pre-war and both gave good accounts of themselves in 1938-9. The picture of his BMW and de Vassal's car (anyone know anything about that? It has a bit of a look of Delahaye about it) is dated 1948, so he certainly raced after the war, but there don't seem to be any further details on that Romanian site. Romania was pretty much a closed country post-1945, so he wouldn't have had much chance of racing abroad.

Perhaps rtcoman can tell us more (and maybe translate a bit more of that website :) )

#59 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 March 2003 - 00:57

But I wouldn't conclude from this that AU was there. I just compared the pictures and it looks more like a 1938 model to me. Might have been someone who just happened to live (and park) there.



Simons tells of a convoi, and a "native" car parking there seems to be too much of coincidence to me. I said "indication" not "proof".

An example of a big fish in a small pond, I suppose. OTOH, when he did venture out of his pond, he proved he could mix it with the even bigger fish. He and Jean Calcianu were just about the only Romanians who hit the road to race elsewhere pre-war and both gave good accounts of themselves in 1938-9.



I really think he must not be underestimated! At the Eifelrennen he beat the whole German sports car elite (including the NSKK team with Paul Greifzu, Uli Richter and Willi Briem, probably also von Hanstein) plus "Mr. Frazer Nash" John Aldington in quite similiar - or even better prepared - cars, and I think at least some of them were quite more familiar to the "Ring" than him!

Advertisement

#60 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,774 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 March 2003 - 01:12

Originally posted by uechtel
I really think he must not be underestimated! At the Eifelrennen he beat the whole German sports car elite (including the NSKK team with Paul Greifzu, Uli Richter and Willi Briem, probably also von Hanstein) plus "Mr. Frazer Nash" John Aldington in quite similiar - or even better prepared - cars, and I think at least some of them were quite more familiar to the "Ring" than him!


Agreed! His Monte record and the other results which he recorded on his few forays abroad are an indication he was much better than average. He was a DNA in the 1936 Magyar Nagy Dij in a Ford Special - Sheldon is rather dismissive of that - but you don't take a class win at La Turbie on your first appearance without being pretty good.

It's interesting to speculate on how he might have performed if he'd got hold of a competitive voiturette.

#61 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,052 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 01 March 2003 - 02:05

Another who can say, "But for Hitler and the war I could have..." eh?

But it must have been a tremendous accomplishment to have outdone the Germans on their home circuit, all the same...

#62 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 01 March 2003 - 10:28

Originally posted by uechtel


Simons tells of a convoi, and a "native" car parking there seems to be too much of coincidence to me. I said "indication" not "proof".


Well, I've parked my dirty old Audi behind a shining fast BMW more than once :lol:

But you're right, it's a good indication.

BTW, I've found a very interesting article on this subject on http://www.theautomo...DF/01_11_20.pdf!

#63 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,774 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 March 2003 - 12:00

Originally posted by Brun
BTW, I've found a very interesting article on this subject on URL=http://www.theautomobile.ndirect.co.uk/PDF/01_11_20.pdf]http://www.theautomo...DF/01_11_20.pdf[/URL]!


No worky! And I don't have time to navigate round The Automobile's "search engine" :rolleyes:

As it's a PDF, you've presumably downloaded it, Brun - you have my email I think .... :D

#64 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 01 March 2003 - 14:24

I've done even better: corrected the link :-) It's working now.

#65 dmj

dmj
  • Member

  • 2,250 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 06 March 2003 - 16:54

http://www.atlasf1.c...hlight=Romanian

Seems to me that both sites were from same source...

#66 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 08 March 2003 - 21:20

Originally posted by dmj
http://www.atlasf1.c...hlight=Romanian

Seems to me that both sites were from same source...


Yes, seems to me too, butn interesting is that the Stuck picture is signed by Hans (Stuck)..., so it has some official character.

#67 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 10 May 2003 - 10:56

I checked the whole 1940 Swiss "Automobile Revue" about some races in Romania. There was the idea to have a hillclimb in October, but, it seems after reading the "AR", there was no race in 1940.

#68 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 26 June 2003 - 11:32

@ Brun.

Than you didn't find anything about Hans Stuck in Romania?

#69 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 27 June 2003 - 08:57

Nothing... which is puzzling, since it was an NSKK-event to have German teams take part there. Mind you, Romania 1940 was one of the two items on my to-check list, so I did look quite specifically for anything that could give a clue, including hotel bills, telegrams etc.

#70 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 09 July 2003 - 15:14

Holger wrote to the BMW archives to ask them about it. I've translated their reply to him.

Hagen Nyncke, historian at BMW Mobile Tradition:

I'm not surprised that you can't find anything to this race in
Romania, since it never took place! The Royal Automobile Club had
invited drivers to take part in the Kronstadt GP on September 1,
1940. This wasn't a GP as we know it, but a sportscar race. Compare
it to the French sportscar-GPs in those days. Back then, several
countries used these races to exclude the always-winning Germans.

Still, it seems unlikely that an Auto Union took part in a demo run
or in a race at Kronstadt in 1940. The three works-BMWs and a private BMW
sportscar drove there by themselves and I have heard that they lapped a
few training rounds. But there never was a race, due to the fact that
Hungarian troops crossed the Rumanian border in those days and toppled the
government. The political turmoil that followed kept the German drivers in
Rumania for a while. Later, they managed to find their way home, although
it was quite an adventure to get there..

A second race which also was called Grand Prix was due to take place in
Bucarest a few weeks later. It had been the intention to take part with
BMW sportscars. I am not sure if this GP also offered a race for other
categories, although I vaguely remember something about that. But I might
be confused here. I'll look into it and let you know.


Nyncke's answer, a few days later:

Looking in our archives, I conclude that the report from Romania must be
the 1939 Bucarest GP. I hardly think that by 1940, it was possible for AU
to be there too. You see, in that year, the roads had deteriorated to a
miserable condition. Even the BMW roadster couldn't be transported there
and had to drive to Romania on its own wheels. The trip took them 5 days!
To me it seems that by that time, an Auto Union transport convoy to
Romania was as much an impossibility as the BMW transport convoy was.


#71 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 09 July 2003 - 19:51

@ Brun: dank je well.

#72 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 11 July 2003 - 07:46

Originally posted by uechtel
More Kronstadt pictures from the BMW archive:

But alas, no sign of the Auto Union. Only the car in the background of the second picture seems to be of Saxonian origin. An Audi?

Perhaps I should leave that to our Auto Union experts here


@ Uechtel. Which year?

#73 karlcars

karlcars
  • Member

  • 660 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 11 July 2003 - 08:12

HIOH -- Hugely Impressed of Hawkedon here... Great stuff.

I TRANSLATED the Simon book from the German and didn't remember these references!

#74 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 11 July 2003 - 13:26

Originally posted by Holger Merten


@ Uechtel. Which year?


The BMW archive says it´s 1940. And the cars in front are clearly the Mille Miglia roadsters, which had not yet existed in 1939. So 1940 should be correct.

#75 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 11 July 2003 - 13:48

Interesting. :drunk:

#76 Hans Etzrodt

Hans Etzrodt
  • Member

  • 3,188 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 12 February 2004 - 09:14

Originally posted by anjakub
...Petre G. Cristea
rallies and races results:...
1936
1st in Bucharest Grand Prix (sports cars),
1st in Poiana Brasov hillclimb (overall).
1937
1st in Brasov Grand Prix (sports cars),
1st in Sibiu Hillclimb (sports cars),
1st in Poiana Brasov hillclimb (record),
1st in Sinaia Hillclimb (sports cars).
1938:
1st in Bucharest Grand Prix (racing cars and sports cars),
1st in Sinaia Hillclimb (racing cars, record),
2nd in Schwarzenberg Hillclimb, Romania (racing cars)...

Andrzej - I would very much appreciate if you can please provide dates, distance and other pertinent information (as it appears on the list of hill climb winners) for the above events or at least the hill climbs. I am still busy with my present update of the hill climb list and would like to include those above events -not yet part of the list-. I am expecting to finish the present update this month. It is larger than expected and dragging along for too long.

#77 Mihai

Mihai
  • Member

  • 171 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 03 March 2004 - 13:44

Kronstadt = Brasov

You see, in Brasov are living many German ethnics (colonised throughout history by the Hungarian rulers of Transilvania). They are called 'Sachsen'. And for Brasov they say Kronstadt. All your German sources are mentioning Kronstadt, just keep in mind that Kronstadt = Brasov.

#78 Hans Etzrodt

Hans Etzrodt
  • Member

  • 3,188 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 03 March 2004 - 22:41

Originally posted by Mihai
...just keep in mind that Kronstadt = Brasov.

Mihai - thanks for the tip. :D

#79 Henk Vasmel

Henk Vasmel
  • Member

  • 779 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 14 April 2007 - 21:20

Let's revive an old thread. I recently acquired the book Renntransporter, by Mathias Braun and Alexander Franz Storz. On page 22/23 there is a nice picture of the BMW and AU teams "picnicking" by the roadside. The details are pretty vague, but there are three "racing" cars visible, one with the number 16 (hood opened). the third one seems to be an open-wheeler, but almost certainly not an Auto Union. The caption says that it is the German teams returning from Kronstadt (Brasov), late August 1940. I didn't believe that date, almost a year into the war, so I searched the BB and found this thread. So it seems to be correct after all, except that it may have been early September, if we have to believe that it took the teams weeks to get home again.
It would be extremely irritating if the AU transporter in the picture actually contains the AU hill climb car that we would desperately like to see.
Another thing, the atmosphere in the picture appears to be pretty relaxed, not at all like people on the run. So they must be in a relatively safe area. There is only one silhouette suggesting a uniformed person, which I consider a bit surprising. I would have expected this to be almost a military expedition.

Anyone have any comment?

Regards,

Henk Vasmel

Advertisement

#80 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:52

Henk, would be great you can post the picture here into this thread, so we can give our comments.

#81 Henk Vasmel

Henk Vasmel
  • Member

  • 779 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:10

Posting the picture is a bit tricky. It is to big for my scanner and over two pages of the book as well, so that's the technical problem. The other one is that it is from a recent book, and since the book relies on pictures like this to be interesting, I am afraid we run into copyright problems here. They might well consider that this is not a teaser to make the book more popular, but in fact a publication outside the context of the book which might make it less interesting.

Regards,

Henk Vasmel

#82 Hugo Boecker

Hugo Boecker
  • Member

  • 702 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 30 January 2008 - 11:44

Originally posted by anjakub
From BMW Archiv:

Brasov Grand Prix 1940

The BMW work team cars took part in the practice session, but did not start the actual race due to the war situation.
In Brasov were Huschke von Hanstein - BMW 328 "Mille Miglia" Bügelfalten-Roadster (reg. IIA-52114, #15), Wilhelm Briem - BMW 328 "Mille Miglia" Touring Roadster (reg. IIA-43269, #16) and Walter Bäumer - BMW 328 "Mille Miglia" Touring Roadster (reg. IIA-43379, #17).

Details: www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de

Do we know if this was "only" a car event or or a combined motorcycle car race as so often in those days.
And if it was combined with bikes was there international participation?

#83 coco

coco
  • Member

  • 166 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 30 January 2008 - 14:52

Originally posted by anjakub
From BMW Archiv:

Brasov Grand Prix 1940

The BMW work team cars took part in the practice session, but did not start the actual race due to the war situation.
In Brasov were Huschke von Hanstein - BMW 328 "Mille Miglia" Bügelfalten-Roadster (reg. IIA-52114, #15), Wilhelm Briem - BMW 328 "Mille Miglia" Touring Roadster (reg. IIA-43269, #16) and Walter Bäumer - BMW 328 "Mille Miglia" Touring Roadster (reg. IIA-43379, #17).

Details: www.historischesarchiv.bmw.de

uups...never heared that my uncle drove in that event. What was the date? Any photo available?

Ciao!
Walter

#84 Alexander M

Alexander M
  • Member

  • 112 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 05 November 2009 - 11:17

Bringing this old thread back to life, but hope it would be interesting.

Here is a picture of a 328 Touring Mille Miglia which is reported to be taken in USSR, supposedly in late forties. Man to the right from the car is Alexey Podkutov, taxi and racing driver and a proud owner of the car, which came to him in 1947, after it has been taken from Germany by Soviet army. Podkutov had some intentions of racing the car in USSR, but after a big accident with a captured Auto Union car in summer 1948, when 18 people were killed during a record attempt, in winter that same year racing foreign machinery was prohibited, and Podkutov used this car at least to drive to the races and back. To be more precise, the text (http://avtomir.com/c...andparent/4701/) says he didn't use this car in all-Soviet competitions, so there is still a tiny possibility that the car could have been raced somewhere during 1947-1948, although these are only my thoughts.

Posted Image

Interesting that it still has racing numbers (#15, just like during this Brasov race! - thanks to Uechtel for pointing my attention to this), and in case it was not raced it seems twice interesting. So, what you think, could this picture be taken in Romania in 1940 (I don't know Podkutov's face, but still the whole atmosphere like clothes, nature etc. looks rather Soviet for me) or maybe the racing numbers could just remain on the car after Brasov race? Did this machine race anywhere else after Brasov?

:wave:

Edited by Alexander M, 05 November 2009 - 11:20.


#85 Michael_Delaney

Michael_Delaney
  • Member

  • 41 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 05 November 2009 - 15:43

Bringing this old thread back to life, but hope it would be interesting.

Here is a picture of a 328 Touring Mille Miglia which is reported to be taken in USSR, supposedly in late forties. Man to the right from the car is Alexey Podkutov, taxi and racing driver and a proud owner of the car, which came to him in 1947, after it has been taken from Germany by Soviet army. Podkutov had some intentions of racing the car in USSR, but after a big accident with a captured Auto Union car in summer 1948, when 18 people were killed during a record attempt, in winter that same year racing foreign machinery was prohibited, and Podkutov used this car at least to drive to the races and back. To be more precise, the text (http://avtomir.com/c...andparent/4701/) says he didn't use this car in all-Soviet competitions, so there is still a tiny possibility that the car could have been raced somewhere during 1947-1948, although these are only my thoughts.

Posted Image

Interesting that it still has racing numbers (#15, just like during this Brasov race! - thanks to Uechtel for pointing my attention to this), and in case it was not raced it seems twice interesting. So, what you think, could this picture be taken in Romania in 1940 (I don't know Podkutov's face, but still the whole atmosphere like clothes, nature etc. looks rather Soviet for me) or maybe the racing numbers could just remain on the car after Brasov race? Did this machine race anywhere else after Brasov?

:wave:

I agree on this! Seems that this shot was taken in Russia and the car had still its race-no. from Brasov on its sides! Photos from the BMW-site confirms this no. to H.v.Hanstein in that event.

Regards

MD


#86 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 05 November 2009 - 16:05

There was definitively no further race by Germans with this car. The Brasov race was already during the war and the circumstances of the race show, that this was already very critical.

To me it would be also plausible, that nobody removed the number after the last race. There are many other cars found on scrapyards decades after their last race and still with the numbers on it.

Of course all this is no indication towards when the picture was taken.

#87 Mihai

Mihai
  • Member

  • 171 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 04 October 2010 - 19:07

Since you are talking about the Brasov Grand Prix, I found the layout of the track, as used between 1935 and 1951 :

Posted Image

Just a note: 'Sosire' means 'Finish' in Romanian.

#88 O Volante

O Volante
  • Member

  • 309 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 11 October 2010 - 09:32

Hi Mihai,
same question as posted in the Feleac thread: Any detailed results of the Brasov races in this book? What about pictures?

Edited by O Volante, 11 October 2010 - 09:33.


#89 Bramgoro

Bramgoro
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 11 September 2013 - 13:49

Feleac 1938
Categora curse:
1. Hans Stuck , Zwickau, ( Auto-Union) Timp 2m. 56,89 sec. ( media 142, 461 km/h)
2. Petre Cristea, Bucuresti ( BMW) Timp 3m. 37,63 sec. ( media 115.793 km/h)
3. Jean Calcianu, Bucuresti (Hotchkiss) Timp 3m. 49,38 sec ( media 1O9,861 km/h)

Categoria sport:
1. Petre Cristea, Bucuresti , ( BMW) Timp 3m 44,52 sec. ( media 112, 239km/h)
2. Jean Calcianu, Bucuresti ( Hotchkiss) Timp 3m. 52,56 sec. ( media 1O8,359km/h)
3. Adolf Reichenwallner , Munchen , ( Fiat) Timp 4m. 21,7O sec. ( media 96, 293km/h)



 



#90 Bramgoro

Bramgoro
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 11 September 2013 - 13:51

Feleac 1938
Categora curse:
1. Hans Stuck , Zwickau, ( Auto-Union) Timp 2m. 56,89 sec. ( media 142, 461 km/h)
2. Petre Cristea, Bucuresti ( BMW) Timp 3m. 37,63 sec. ( media 115.793 km/h)
3. Jean Calcianu, Bucuresti (Hotchkiss) Timp 3m. 49,38 sec ( media 1O9,861 km/h)

Categoria sport:
1. Petre Cristea, Bucuresti , ( BMW) Timp 3m 44,52 sec. ( media 112, 239km/h)
2. Jean Calcianu, Bucuresti ( Hotchkiss) Timp 3m. 52,56 sec. ( media 1O8,359km/h)
3. Adolf Reichenwallner , Munchen , ( Fiat) Timp 4m. 21,7O sec. ( media 96, 293km/h)



#91 TimRTC

TimRTC
  • Member

  • 1,282 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 11 September 2013 - 16:08

Since you are talking about the Brasov Grand Prix, I found the layout of the track, as used between 1935 and 1951 :

circuitbrasov.jpg

Just a note: 'Sosire' means 'Finish' in Romanian.

 

Does anyone know if the roads used for this race are still present, I was in Brasov a few years back and wonder if I walked on any part of this course?



#92 Comgar

Comgar
  • New Member

  • 16 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 11 September 2013 - 18:18

Grand Prix Brasov 1939 - Otto Pfennings ( Zündapp / KS 600 )

OttoPfenningsAroPalace.jpg



#93 Comgar

Comgar
  • New Member

  • 16 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 11 September 2013 - 18:24

GP Brasov 1939

Marele-Premiu-al-orasului-Brasov-Fritz-W

http://www.amsonline...tea-13-08-1939/



#94 Comgar

Comgar
  • New Member

  • 16 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 13 September 2013 - 15:30

Hans Stuck - Romania, Cluj 1938

Hans_Stuck_Feleac1.jpg

http://oradecluj.ora...ort/2012/06/14/