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#1 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 10:51

Can anyone give me a 'history 101 for young dumb americans' on this race/series? I am vaguely aware of its past existence but thats about it.

For a rather odd and complicated reason im involved in securing the title sponsorship for the upcoming CART GP at Brands this May and Daily Express popped into my mind for some reason. Also anyone know what the sponsor of the last time CART/Indy/USAC/whoever ran Brands?

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:04

That was a Formula One race, an annual event through the late fifties to the early seventies, I would think.

There are posts on this forum about the time the USAC guys ran at Brands... try search. I'd say it was about '69, but I'm purely guessing.

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:09

The International Trophy was one of the two British non-Championship races (the Race of Champions at Brands Hatch was the other) which provided a traditional curtain-raiser to the season. From the early 60s it was usually only attended by the British teams (although Ferrari sometimes entered and turned up occasionally!). Like all non-Championship races it gradually declined and eventually died. :(

Results on Quintin's site.

What else d'you need to know about it?

#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:13

USAC at Brands was 1978, sponsored by the Daily Mail. The race at Silverstone was sponsored by the Daily Express.

And the International Trophy goes back to 1949, Ray - 1951 was the famous wet race abandoned after 4 laps with Parnell leading in an Alfa.

#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:19

One of two?

And yes, Richard, I was afraid I was being a bit conservative with years...

In the early sixties there was a pre-season race at Silverstone and another somewhere else, but not the Race of Champions... that was a later introduction. There was also the odd F1 event at Goodwood through the fifties and early sixties... if I had my Monkhouse book here I could iron all this out. There was probably something at Aintree...

Wasn't the Race of Champions a late-season event?

#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:33

Originally posted by Ray Bell
One of two?

Yep - on successive weekends - end of September IIRC.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
And yes, Richard, I was afraid I was being a bit conservative with years...
In the early sixties there was a pre-season race at Silverstone and another somewhere else, but not the Race of Champions... that was a later introduction. There was also the odd F1 event at Goodwood through the fifties and early sixties... if I had my Monkhouse book here I could iron all this out. There was probably something at Aintree...


Usually the Aintree 200 and the Glover Trophy at Goodwood in the late 50s, but in the 60s there was also the Gold Cup at Oulton Park, races at Snetterton and even one at Mallory Park! Race of Champions started in 1964 and essentially replaced the Glover Trophy in the calendar.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Wasn't the Race of Champions a late-season event?

There were occasional late-season F1 races at Brands, notably the tragic 1971 event, which was meant to be a celebration of Stewart's second Championship, but was where we lost Seppi. But the big two, IT and RoC, were usually round about Easter every year.

And the Race of Champions was sponsored by the Daily Mail too - the Mail and Express are traditional rivals!

#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:49

Yeah, I knew there was a bunch of them... but Snetterton was only run once or twice, wasn't it?

I left the Oulton Pk race out of my listing because I thought we were talking about 'curtain raiser' events at the start of the season like the International Trophy was...

#8 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:53

Yes, Oulton was in August, Bank Holiday weekend, sometimes clashing with Solitude or the German GP.

#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:59

Though it dropped off the list early, as I recall... maybe 1965?

#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 12:20

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Though it dropped off the list early, as I recall... maybe 1965?


1954/5: F1
1956: F2 (before it existed!)/sports
1957: F2
1958: sports
1959/63: F1
1964/5: F2
1966: F1
1967: F1/2
1969/72: F1/5000
1973/5: F5000

After that it became a round of the various British national F1/G8 series, then Historic in 1981 (Surtees in a 250F), national F1 in 1982, then five years of Thundersports, F3 in 1988, then F3000, then Touring Cars and now back to Historic again! Phew!

And before Roger jumps in - yes, I know it wasn't always August! :)

#11 David Beard

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 12:42

Please have a look at this earlier thread, too....

Silverstone International Trophy

#12 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 12:48

The Race of Champions was first held in 1965, not 1964. At first, it was held on alternate years, when the Grand Prix was held at Silverstone.

The International Trophy was traditionally, but not always, held the week before the first European Grand Prix of the season. I well remember 1961 standing in the pouring rain, seeing Moss lap the field in ridiculously short time. A week later he won that race at Monaco.

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 12:55

Originally posted by Roger Clark
The Race of Champions was first held in 1965, not 1964. At first, it was held on alternate years, when the Grand Prix was held at Silverstone.


Sorry - that was a typo :blush: But the only year it missed was 1966, I think because it was felt there wouldn't be enough cars ready at the start of the new formula.

#14 bill moffat

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 15:11

Originally posted by Roger Clark

The International Trophy was traditionally, but not always, held the week before the first European Grand Prix of the season. I well remember 1961 standing in the pouring rain, seeing Moss lap the field in ridiculously short time. A week later he won that race at Monaco.


The International Trophy often fell victim to the typically atrocious "Spring" weather in the UK.

IIRC it actually snowed during the race one year..has snow fallen during an F1 race before or since ??

#15 bill moffat

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 15:36

..and the race provided two World Champions with their first and last F1 wins respectively.

Keke Rosberg won in appalling conditions in 1978. He was driving the unfancied Theodore (there is a Teddy Yip thread running at present) in only his 2nd GP race ! Suspect this helped the furtherance of his career somewhat....

Graham Hill's final GP win was at this race in 1971 in the "lobster claw" Brabham BT34. What a pity he didn't call it a day then. After Graham's death the race was given his name for the following year.

#16 Rob29

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 17:00

Originally posted by Roger Clark
The Race of Champions was first held in 1965, not 1964. At first, it was held on alternate years, when the Grand Prix was held at Silverstone.

The International Trophy was traditionally, but not always, held the week before the first European Grand Prix of the season. I well remember 1961 standing in the pouring rain, seeing Moss lap the field in ridiculously short time.

Yes I remember that one well-last apearance of a Vanwall.
for the record; 1949-51 F1
52-53 F2(acting F1")
54-60 F1
61 ICF
62-76 F1
77 F2
78 F1
79-84 F2
85-9? F3000
Anyone know whether the trophy is still presented to the winner of the F3000 race at Silverstone? The title seems to have been last used when it was last a stand alone event.

#17 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 19:57

Originally posted by Rob29
79-84 F2

IIRC in 1980 it was a round of the British F1 Championship, and was dominated by Salazar and de Villota in Williams FW07s

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 22:02

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Sorry - that was a typo :blush: But the only year it missed was 1966, I think because it was felt there wouldn't be enough cars ready at the start of the new formula.


Maybe that's a convenient fact, Vitesse, but I think Roger's right... it was to give Brands a Formula One race in the years they didn't have the GP. At least initially...

#19 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 22:39

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Yes, Oulton was in August, Bank Holiday weekend, sometimes clashing with Solitude or the German GP.


And before Roger jumps in - yes, I know it wasn't always August!



Well I refrained as long as I could...

I don't think the Gold Cup was ever in August, certainly not Bank Holiday weekend and never clashing with the German races which were late July and early August. The Gold Cup was usually held in late September, after the Italian Grand Prix.

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#20 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 23:16

We were very fortunate with our diet of non-Championship Formula 1 races as season-openers in the early 1960s. From 1962-64 the schedule opened with the Snetterton race which usually had a meagre field, blasted-heath weather with freezing rain and the seagulls coughing into the fog - then the Easter Monday Goodwood meeting with its International '100' for the Glover Trophy would follow, then the BARC's northern event, the Aintree '200', and that would be followed by the Silverstone May Meeting with the BRDC 'Daily Express' International Trophy as its feature event. The Championship-opening Monaco or Dutch GP would then follow. I think 1963 was the best year for non-Championship early-season F1 races, with Snetterton, Goodwood, Pau, Aintree, Syracuse, Imola, Naples (maybe clashing with Monaco, so later then??? - can't check right now???) and May Silverstone all in fairly rapid succession - plus the later season races as at Mallory (or was that only '62???), Crystal Palace on Whit-Monday, the Mediterranean GP at Enna, Sicily, the Solitude GP at Stuttgart, Roskilde in Denmark, Karlskoga in Sweden....oh happy days....

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#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 23:21

Not to mention Brussells... as we're reminded in your new quiz thread.

I thought Oulton was later than August... but I have zero reference material here with me to check. Shame on you, Vitesse!

Doug... those coughing seagulls, send them down to Phillip Island for a bit of curative Aussie sunshine.

...mixed with horizontal rain, Bass Strait winds, etc.

#22 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 23:28

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Not to mention Brussells...


Did not run beyond 1962, mate....

#23 Geoff E

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 23:40

Originally posted by Roger Clark




Well I refrained as long as I could...

I don't think the Gold Cup was ever in August, certainly not Bank Holiday weekend and never clashing with the German races which were late July and early August. The Gold Cup was usually held in late September, after the Italian Grand Prix.


You are probably right about it never clashing with the other races. I'm just making the rather pedantic point that in the 60s August Bank Holiday was the FIRST Monday in August.

#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 23:47

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Did not run beyond 1962, mate....


I realise that... but 1961 and 1962 were in the 'early sixties'...

Now, how about those seagulls?

#25 Roger Clark

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 00:31

Originally posted by Geoff E


You are probably right about it never clashing with the other races. I'm just making the rather pedantic point that in the 60s August Bank Holiday was the FIRST Monday in August.


I hope I didn't write anything that suggested otherwise.

#26 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 00:42

Okay - guilty as charged ..... except






















1954, when it was held on Saturday August 7th (Bank Holiday weekend)

#27 Roger Clark

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 07:19

I'd overlooked 1954. But August Bank Holiday was the 2nd that year.

#28 Rob29

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 08:01

Originally posted by Tim Murray

IIRC in 1980 it was a round of the British F1 Championship, and was dominated by Salazar and de Villota in Williams FW07s

Thanks Tim,I should have remembered that one! BRDC did not apply for a EuroF2 date at Silverstone as they expected to have a FOCA F1 non -champ race(it was their turn) However Bernie decided to support no non-champ events so they ended up with Aurora F1.

#29 JohnS

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 20:33

I have a terrific reference book on these non-championship events (which was actually recommended to me on this forum). It's at

http://www.editions-...tatistiques.htm

and it's well worth buying.

John

#30 Rob29

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Posted 02 March 2003 - 08:50

Originally posted by JohnS
I have a terrific reference book on these non-championship events (which was actually recommended to me on this forum). It's at

http://www.editions-...tatistiques.htm

and it's well worth buying.

John

Are these french language versions of the Sheldon black books?