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June 10th 1957


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#1 D-Type

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Posted 03 March 2003 - 23:03

In Archie and the Listers Robert Edwards says that on June 10 1957 at Crystal Palace Stirling Moss tried out the Lister-Jaguar and includes a photo of Stirling and Archie in MVE 303. He goes on to say that Stirling was entered to drive a Cooper-Porsche in the Norbury Trophy. However My cars, My Career has no section covering the Cooper-Porsche and the results table is blank for the period between the Nurburgring 1000km on 26 May57 and Le Mans on 22/23 June 57. The results table in Edwards's biography of Moss is similarly blank which is not surprising as it draws heavily on DCN's table in My cars, My Career .

This raises several questions:
1. Who built the Cooper-Porsche
2. Was it a bobtail sports car or was it a Formula 2 car?
3. Did Stirling Moss ever drive it or race it?
4. Would Moss take a month off in mid-season without a race?

Can anybody shed any light?

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#2 jarama

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Posted 03 March 2003 - 23:49

D-Type,

I know of one Cooper-Porsche, listed in the book "Porsche Specials", though maybe there were more than one:

"Frequently to be seen in South Africa in the mid-1950s was a Cooper chassis with a Porsche 1500 S engine. With this car, Ian Frazer-Jones recorded a number of wins in important races. Of the original Cooper, only the nose remained unmodified."

Extracted form "Porsche Specials", by Lothar Boschen and J├╝rgen Barth.

2) This was a Formula car, nor a bobtail sports.

Carles.

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 00:07

There was Pete Lovely's "Pooper" in the US as well, but it won't be that either. No mention of Moss being at the Palace in the meeting report in Motor Sport, but there is a picture of Archie in MVE303, numbered 63. I don't have "Archie and the Listers": does that tie in with the photo you mention?

#4 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 00:11

Stirling Moss had been billed to appear in the Norbury Trophy event, and no doubt many people had turned up to watch the British Champion drive Ken Miles's Porsche-engined Cooper. But they were doomed to disappointment, for the car had not yet arrived from the United States.

From Autosport June 14, 1957

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 00:14

1 hour 8 minutes, 10000 miles ..... :D

#6 Wolf

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 02:05

D-Type, re. 4- apparently so, because table at the end of All But My Life has the same 'hole'...

#7 antonvrs

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 05:57

Ken Miles' "Pooper" was built by/for John Von Neuman who was the Porsche and VW distributor in southern California at the time. The 550 that Miles had been driving for Von Neuman wasn't competitive with the Cooper 1500(single cam Climax) that Bob Drake was driving for the Cooper importer so they stuffed the 550 motor in a Cooper. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
However, when Porsche in Germany got wind of it- it was quite a bit quicker than the 550- they convinced Von Neuman he shouldn't race it any more if he wanted to continue selling Porsches and VWs. Then they sent him an RSK.
At least, that's the legend here in SoCal.
Anton

#8 cabianca

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 17:06

Antonvrs,
Your von Neumann story is partially true. Porsche did put pressure on, but there's no way under American law they could have pulled the distributorship. The VN Pooper was run at the end of 1956, long before the RSK existed, so that wasn't its replacement. The VN team returned to its original spyders and simply updated them to keep them competitive.

#9 Felix Muelas

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 20:42

Originally posted by Vitesse2
...No mention of Moss being at the Palace in the meeting report in Motor Sport, but there is a picture of Archie in MVE303, numbered 63. I don't have "Archie and the Listers": does that tie in with the photo you mention?


Sorry for the intermezzo, but here goes the picture, Richard
Looks like they BOTH were there...;)
Posted Image

#10 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 20:52

Originally posted by D-Type

4. Would Moss take a month off in mid-season without a race?

Can anybody shed any light?


If you look at Moss' 1957 racing record it is clear that he drove fewer cars than he did in other years. Apart from the MG record braking runs in august, he restricted himself to Formula 1 and championship sprotcar races until after the Italian Grand Prix. Is it possible that his Vanwall contract restricted his driving in other events? If it did, Vandervell must have been even more annoyed that he injured himself water skiiing.

It is also possible that he was occupied with preparations for his wedding, building a house in Nassau, and opening a hamburger restaurant.

#11 Doug Nye

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 22:03

The figure beside Moss, apparently wearing Archie Scott-Brown's crash helmet, in the prototype Lister-Jaguar was actually a schoolboy named Peter Clements, from Henley, who had won a competition in the Eagle comic. He had a choice of prizes - either a flight with World Air Speed Record pilot Peter Twiss, or a sail with the great contemporary racer Uffa Fox, or a drive with SM. Good lad, he chose the latter - perhaps, one suspects, with some parental urging? Had he been my son I'd have bundled him into the boat with Fox, and kept him well away from those dangerous aeroplanes and racing cars.

SM had rationed his racing appearances - he was deeply involved timewise with his first wife Katie -he did go water skiing on the Riviera, shipped an excess of sea water at high pressure up his nose, contracted sinusitis and then missed the year's French GP at Rouen too. There was also the troubling time he was having with Maserati - the brake pedal assembly which had snapped off in the Mille Miglia, the spanner which was left lying in the engine, tangled with the throttle return springs at Le Mans...

DCN

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 22:13

Which beggs the question...

How different would Rouen have been had he been there?

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 22:25

Originally posted by Roger Clark


If you look at Moss' 1957 racing record it is clear that he drove fewer cars than he did in other years. Apart from the MG record braking runs in august, he restricted himself to Formula 1 and championship sprotcar races until after the Italian Grand Prix. Is it possible that his Vanwall contract restricted his driving in other events? If it did, Vandervell must have been even more annoyed that he injured himself water skiiing.

It is also possible that he was occupied with preparations for his wedding, building a house in Nassau, and opening a hamburger restaurant.


Well, GAV might have been a bit annoyed, but as DSJ/CP point out, under the terms of his contract, Moss actually forfeited quite a lot of money for missing those two races for Vanwall. And of course it meant that Stuart Lewis-Evans got a chance to greatly impress the old man, which he did superbly. Lewis-Evans got a Vanwall contract out of it and GAV completed his all-British team.

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Had he been my son I'd have bundled him into the boat with Fox, and kept him well away from those dangerous aeroplanes and racing cars.


:lol: :lol: :rotfl: :rotfl: :p