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Leyburn 1949... Graham's question


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#1 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 22:33

In his splendid account of the 1949 Australian Grand Prix at Leyburn, Graham Howard makes no mention of entry number 27.

And, unfortunately, poor proofreading has allowed this entry to be detailed incorrectly. So we'll correct it:

27. Cyril Tritton (Qld) Wolseley Special 3440cc

Those with AGP 50-race history books should make this correction now...

Now, with all that was going on that weekend, the biggest race meeting (by far!) ever held in Queensland, the furthest one had ever been held from Brisbane, the most crowded, the most fraught (as the QRDA didn't even have a circuit three months before, and they were committed to running the event), the most logistically unweildy and all of that... it's no wonder that the odd competitor might have been missed in the melee... if he didn't start the race.

Here's one car which didn't start, but it did practise! What's more, it practised with a 'riding mechanic', and this 'riding mechanic' is still around today and remembers it well. Bill Kelly had laboured beyond normal working hours to complete the car, and Tritton's promise to him was that he could be 'riding mechanic' in the AGP.

Anyway, here's the car:

Posted Image

Now, I am just busting to know if anyone has a Leyburn snapshot that has this car in the background (or foreground, for that matter...). It would probably be practice day, but the car was still there race day, so you never know...

Without going into more detail in this post, the question to which I refer in the thread heading is this one:

The first three rows of the grid, as compiled by Graham and confirmed by photos and the colour movie I have:

Posted Image

Note that vacancy in the second row? Now Graham poses this question...

Posted Image

Now, I am in now way trying to deride Graham's efforts in sorting this out. I guess I was really lucky to find out that this car practised, because Tritton said he wasn't there!

But somebody else mentioned that Bill Kelly was there and is to be seen in a photo of a lineup of MGs in Toowoomba that accompanies Graham's report, and that Bill was there in the Wolseley... and Bill Kelly was happy to talk about it.

It seems that Tritton's family wouldn't allow him to race, but to honour his promise to Kelly he allowed John Pike to run the car. But after practice, with the loose stones on those wide airstrips that made up the 4.3 mile course, the brand new paint was copping a hammering. Pike withdrew from the race.

So they practised, and obviously would have set a time.

Graham mentions Pearse and Whatmore as practising and having bothers, but they both started the race too. The list of DNFs includes Pearse on lap 2, Whatmore on lap 10... so they would logically have taken up whatever grid position they earned with whatever time they set. If they had problems, it's understandable that their times may have put them at the back of the grid.

Pike, however, had no problems with the Wolseley... it just copped too much stone damage for his liking.

Now the potential of the car to set such a time must come into this... did it have power? Yes, abundant power! Kelly told me, "Kleinig came up behind us onto the main straight and I watched him, once we were on the straight he didn't catch us at all. But he flew past us when we braked for the corner at the end."

So the car on pole was no faster up the straight... it seems quite reasonable to me that this car was eighth on the grid. And it's a more logical answer than Pearse or Whatmore.

Edited by Ray Bell, 19 May 2011 - 23:56.


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#2 john medley

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 04:52

Ray, There may be a way of eliminating ONE of the possibilities in your puzzle -- by contacting George Pearse who I last spoke to at the Uralla round the houses GP 4 or 5 years ago. At that time he was operating an art gallery ( I think) in or near Dorrigo or Taree: it shouldnt be too difficult to locate G E Pearse in the phone book

#3 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 07:48

Of course, John, it's possible that George could tell me something. But when he was at Uralla (I spoke to him there the first year) he was, as I recall, moving to the South Coast. Or was it the other way around?

But do I need to worry?

I mean to say, the man practised and started the race, surely he would have taken up his proper starting position. That he had problems indicates that he might not have set a good time anyway.

On the other hand, Pike practised and didn't start... and, once he fixed the bonnet, where it was being sucked into the carburettors, he was getting some real speed out of the Wolseley engine.

Of course, we could ask if someone has the practice times...

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 22:06

John...

Checked with an art gallery in Dorrigo... George did move from there 'years ago'... the woman said he went down the South Coast, 'maybe around Gosford'(?!?)... but my recollection is that it was actually to the South Coast.

No phone number to be found... what was his wife's name?


Or better still, Ross or somebody else would be in touch, no doubt. Can you ask them?

#5 275 GTB-4

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 10:13

Great picture of the airfield (and I assume the triangular track) here:

http://www.ozatwar.c...urnairfield.htm

No thread dedicated to Leyburn....typical TNF :rolleyes:

#6 David McKinney

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:11

You're perfectly entitled to start one yourself :)

#7 cooper997

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 12:03

One can imagine the effort Graham put into getting the information together, in the pre-internet days. He must have had some good phone bills.

Just had a quick look at the published entry list in the book versus the race programme.
Appears to be an omission of the lone Victorian entrant.

Leo Johnson Lea Francis #14 11min 30sec (handicap). I haven't looked for a reason why, but he was clearly a non-starter. His details are heavily marked out. As too, is the Tritton entry.

Ken Tubman was originally #16 and became #34, his handicap was originally 11min 30sec and became 17 min. There was other changes too.

Stephen

#8 275 GTB-4

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 11:21

One can imagine the effort Graham put into getting the information together, in the pre-internet days. He must have had some good phone bills.

Just had a quick look at the published entry list in the book versus the race programme.
Appears to be an omission of the lone Victorian entrant.

Leo Johnson Lea Francis #14 11min 30sec (handicap). I haven't looked for a reason why, but he was clearly a non-starter. His details are heavily marked out. As too, is the Tritton entry.

Ken Tubman was originally #16 and became #34, his handicap was originally 11min 30sec and became 17 min. There was other changes too.

Stephen


Excuse me...what was Tubman in again???? I can't see any of the original pics from 2003, just the little boxes with red crosses, another TNF gripe of mine :wave:

#9 Tim Murray

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 11:39

The dreaded red crosses are no fault of TNF. They happen because the photo in question is no longer available, either because people who have uploaded their photos to their own websites find that due to space requirements they have to delete their older photos to make room for new ones, or if the photo is hosted on one of the image-hosting sites such as Imageshack, these sites often automatically delete photos which have not been accessed for some time.

#10 275 GTB-4

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 11:50

You're perfectly entitled to start one yourself :)


:wave:

#11 275 GTB-4

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 11:53

The dreaded red crosses are no fault of TNF. They happen because the photo in question is no longer available, either because people who have uploaded their photos to their own websites find that due to space requirements they have to delete their older photos to make room for new ones, or if the photo is hosted on one of the image-hosting sites such as Imageshack, these sites often automatically delete photos which have not been accessed for some time.


and I have said in the past that in these days of cheap memory and hosting it dosen't have to be....move along now, nothing to see here!! (literally!!!) :lol:

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 12:20

Wisecracking without foundation, the dreaded Mick comes to haunt us again...

The reason for the non-appearance of photos is a combination of TNF being locked away from us editing our posts after a time and my webspace provider changing its name.

If Twinny got into the post and changed each 'www.austarmetro' to 'members.iimetro' then the photos would reappear. They're still in cyberspace.

For the record, Imageshack doesn't delete pictures if you merely register with them. I avoided registering for some time, but finally I did it and I now have no fewer than 3,000 pics with them for use on various fora.

Stephen... was it not Les Johnson? The story of the race includes the information that he arrived without his car, but brought beer, did you see that bit?

Mick... what on earth has Tubman got to do with pictures? He's in none of them, IIRC.

It's a shame I didn't see that this thread had been reopened yesterday evening so I could have nipped some of this in the bud earlier.

And as for your aerial photo, it could have taken its place on the thread devoted to that subject. But seeing as it's here and it's relevant, the top left corner of the circuit is not the piece that goes down to a curve to return up the main straight, but it's the straight connecting road.

That curve is actually in swampy ground and would, I suspect, have been pretty much unusable except in drought (which was present for much of WW2, as I recall), so it was better left unused.

By the way, is it possible that this circuit was theoretically the fastest road racing circuit ever used?

#13 cooper997

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 13:06

Ray,

The AGP programme entry list has "L Johnson" (crossed out), but in the driver profile section of the programme it mentions him as Leo Johnson... from Cowes. He is described as "...a very experienced motor engineer..." A quick check of AMS October 49 and it looks like Leo is indeed incorrect. With the AGP report mentioning "Les Johnson" having trailer issues and arriving too late, with "...some of the boys thoroughly enjoying the Melbourne liquid refreshment he brought up."

Another programme slip-up relates to Ken Tubman. Correctly mentioned in the entry list, but under the driver profile he's down as "Ken Tuleman." For Mick's info he ran an MG Magna, but going by the driver profile intended to run a "...100mph, ear-splitting K3 MG..." but strike hold-ups saw a change of plan.

MGs played a large part in the entries for this event.

Stephen

#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 13:13

And is Tritton's car correctly named in the programme?

That one really nailed me when I found out, I thought how simple a mistake of a handwritten name it was...

#15 cooper997

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 13:22

Yes indeed he is in the entry list - "C Tritton, Qld Wolseley Spec 27 17mins" Heavily crossed out, too. But no mention in the driver profiles section.

Stephen

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 13:39

Okay, I can bring you up to speed with that...

Cyril, like many of the competitors, went away to WW2. On his return he found his wife had been unfaithful, but stuck out the marriage due to family pressures. I believe that building the car was his 'relief valve' and he had a coachbuilder in Brisbane (or in Fortitude Valley, more likely) do the job.

The car was built on an Armstrong-Whitworth chassis, the rear end of which was inverted to undersling the back axle. Because Cyril had fond memories of the songs sung by the Vauxhall 30/98, he used one of these gearboxes. This, of course, was remotely mounted from the engine and we now have the makings of quite a long car.

The Wolseley engine came into play because his family had a 25hp Wolseley and he was impressed by its power, but because the old Wolseley weighed so much, he figured that his sports car would be a lot quicker and would need a taller rear axle ratio. A Dodge rear end was thus fitted.

At the front, for some totally unknown reason, he used a '36 Chevrolet live axle. So front and rear wheels had different fixing and you will see if Twinny fixes the pics that it had two spares. Well, let's not wait for Twinny:

Posted Image

Cyril bowed further to family pressure as the AGP loomed large and, as mentioned previously, elected not to drive. But the work Bill Kelly had put in on the strength of Cyril's promise to let him be riding mechanic meant that he had to find someone to drive it and John Pike was selected.

Later Cyril competed in various sprints etc. He told me he was 'electrically timed' at about 140mph at Southport in the car. He also got out of that first marriage and was with a rather more friendly lady when I met him thirteen or so years ago. Unfortunately both have since died.

#17 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 13:56

And seeing the thread is about a question... here's the question again:

Posted Image

#18 Tim Murray

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 19:15

The reason for the non-appearance of photos is a combination of TNF being locked away from us editing our posts after a time and my webspace provider changing its name.

I don't think there's currently any time restriction on editing of posts. IIRC when the new software was introduced two years ago the mods removed the restriction for a trial period, and have yet to reintroduce it. I can certainly edit all my old posts.

Edited by Tim Murray, 19 May 2011 - 19:26.


#19 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 23:58

Thanks, Tim...

Fixed the opening post.

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#20 Catalina Park

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 06:22

Ray, I will say this once again, Imageshack will delete photos. About 10% of mine have gone from my imageshack account.
It is strange that some of the ones missing are in the same threads as some that are still showing. So it can't be related to the number of views in a time period.
When I go to my Imageshack page I have blank spaces where the thumbnails used to appear.

#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 10:29

I know there are some go missing, Michael...

But when you go to your Imageshack page and find blanks, try clicking on them and see if they're still there. I would doubt that any more than 1% of mine are missing.

#22 Catalina Park

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 10:33

I click them and they are gone.

#23 cooper997

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 11:32

There must be photos kicking around somewhere that helps, confirm the rear of the grid. The AMS report was submitted by Brisbane Telegraph's motoring editor, Les Vowles and all 3 photos used in the report are attributed to this newspaper. No pressure, but with David Shaw being a master of finding obscure photos on the net, maybe when he has a spare moment he might find something on Leyburn.

Looking at the AGP book's photo of Sefton's Strathpine (Ford V8) special (top of page 142) and in the background is George Pearse's #22 MG. The placement of it looks suitable to be the "not identified" grid spot listed on page 147. It still doesn't account for placing Whatmore, Johnson & Maguire though.

Stephen

#24 David Shaw

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 13:37

I can't find any photos, but I have found some background on Tritton.

His name was John Cyril Tritton, son of Frederick Tritton who founded F Tritton Pty Ltd. who were a furniture company.

Frederick died in 1947, leaving Cyril along with his brother Roy as directors. This would explain the family pressure to not compete in the AGP. At the time of Frederick's death, the company had some 500 employees.

Cyril had been competing in quarter-mile sprints as early as 1933 in a Riley 9.
[url="http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1147114?searchTerm="j"]http://trove.nla.gov...11...rchTerm="j[/url] c tritton"&searchLimits=l-title=The+Courier-Mail+%28Brisbane%2C...%7Ctitleid%3A12


#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 13:40

Sorry to hear that, Michael...

Stephen... frankly, I don't think there's much to be gained by chasing down what Graham wanted to see. What would be interesting would be to see pics of the Wolseley in the background of pits shots.

#26 cooper997

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 02:26

Thanks for looking David and the extra information on Tritton. The furniture industry was obviously a lot more prolific in the 40s than what it is now. Five hundred employees would just about cover the whole local industry (factory floor) now.

We can live in hope that there's still dusty Leyburn photos lying around waiting to be found. But with the floods in Qld (recent and past), we maybe shouldn't hold our breath.

Stephen

#27 275 GTB-4

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 10:39

National Film and Sound Archive Canberra
Title No: 428879
Title: [MORRIS, A.K. : MOTOR CAR RACING, C1950 : HOME MOVIE]
Production Date: c. 1950
Produced as: Home movies/recordings
Media: Film
Summary: Motor car racing events believed to be at Leyburn Queensland c1950
Country of Origin: Australia
Language: English

http://bishop.slq.ql...mp;usePid2=true

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 23 May 2011 - 11:22.


#28 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 11:44

Any idea how we can get a look at that, Mick?

Is it interesting stuff?

#29 275 GTB-4

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 22:51

QLD State Library
Morning Bulletin (Rockhampton, Qld. : 1878-1954)
Monday 19 September 1949

Posted Image

#30 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 02:49

A plea...

Is there some way we can view that film Mick's linked?

Please help me out here.

Edited by Ray Bell, 23 May 2011 - 11:37.


#31 275 GTB-4

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:33

Leyburn Today....

Posted Image

Posted Image

I can now die happy :-)

#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:30

Please, Mick...

Don't die yet!

At least not until you tell us how to access that movie referred to above. I certainly can't get it!

#33 Option1

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 15:27

Ray, try going here: http://colsearch.nfs...pe=;resCount=10

If that doesn't work go to http://colsearch.nfs...uery=;resCount= and enter "Morris, A.K." (without the quotes and NO space between the A. and the K).

Neil

Edited by Option1, 10 December 2012 - 15:27.


#34 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:46

Neil, all that leads me to is a site where I can request to be able to view it...

I filled in my request and was told that if I drive to Brisbane I might be able to see it at the State Library. That would amount to a full day out of my life!

Mick is constantly putting up links to things that can't be viewed. The first link leads to a page that says the session has timed out, it's hopeless to follow his links.

I now want to see this clip... how do I do that?

#35 275 GTB-4

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:34

Neil, all that leads me to is a site where I can request to be able to view it...

I filled in my request and was told that if I drive to Brisbane I might be able to see it at the State Library. That would amount to a full day out of my life!

Mick is constantly putting up links to things that can't be viewed. The first link leads to a page that says the session has timed out, it's hopeless to follow his links.

I now want to see this clip... how do I do that?


You're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Twilight Zone!

You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension: a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into... the Twilight Zone.

#36 The Chasm

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:28

Can anyone assist with an entry list for the supporting races at Leyburn in 1949 ? - I am keen to see if car number 37 is there - driver Miss C. Jordan

Posted Image

Edited by The Chasm, 23 May 2013 - 11:32.


#37 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 12:32

Straight from the programme...

C. JORDAN, Qld M.G.T.C 37

Is that good enough?

#38 The Chasm

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 21:25

Thanks Ray.

She actually had a TA, not a TC. Does it mention the event she entered in ?.

I would post another, much better photo, but it is too large for imageshack.

There are more photos from Leyburn to come - still to be sorted.

#39 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 21:49

Dowload Irfanview... run it and accept all options so all your pics will open in Irfanview...

Open the photo in Irfanview...

Posted Image
With your left button on the mouse, scribe (or drag) across to show the area of photo you want to retain.

Posted Image
Click on 'Edit' and click on 'Crop selection'

Posted Image
Click on 'Image' and click on 'Resize/Resample'

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Type the appropriate pixel size into the box with the number highlighted in blue. Touch nothing else, click OK.

A good size for normal horizontal or landscape format pics is about 700 pixels. A vertical format pic usually shouldn't be that wide, I generally go for somewhere between 450 and 550 pixels wide for these depending.

Then save the pic with a new file name or in a different folder (so you don't lose the whole size of the original), upload it without using any Imageshack resizing garbage and post it.

I'm very keen to see any more Leyburn pics... especially if the Regal and the Wolseley Special are involved!

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#40 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 21:56

Sorry... Connie was entered in the 'Formula B Scratch Race'...

This was an 8-lapper prior to the Grand Prix. She was also in the 8-lap 'Leyburn Handicap' which Rex Law so handsomely led in the Regal after the Kleinig Hudson lost its brakes. She's not in the entry list for the Grand Prix.

The use of the term 'Formula B' indicates that this might well have been the first time an International Formula was used for a race in Australia... I had previously thought the two races at Woodside in 1951 had that honour.

#41 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 22:13

Originally posted by cooper997
Ken Tubman was originally #16 and became #34, his handicap was originally 11min 30sec and became 17 min.


Originally posted by cooper997
.....Another programme slip-up relates to Ken Tubman. Correctly mentioned in the entry list, but under the driver profile he's down as "Ken Tuleman." For Mick's info he ran an MG Magna, but going by the driver profile intended to run a "...100mph, ear-splitting K3 MG..." but strike hold-ups saw a change of plan.


Originally posted by cooper997
We can live in hope that there's still dusty Leyburn photos lying around waiting to be found. But with the floods in Qld (recent and past), we maybe shouldn't hold our breath.


Well, Stephen, it's only been a couple of days over two years since you posted this... and look what's happened!

The information about Tubman's entry certainly seals the deal on the photo of No 34.

#42 The Chasm

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 23:46

This is not the Tritton car - but a "brand new" 500cc at Leyburn ?.

Posted Image

David McKinney has identified this car as the "Warburton".

Edited by The Chasm, 23 May 2013 - 23:48.


#43 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 00:16

I'd take odds that this pic was taken at Whites Hill...

Maybe Strathpine, though, but definitely not Leyburn or Lowood.

Did you see my post about photo sizing on the previous page of this thread?

Edited by Ray Bell, 24 May 2013 - 00:24.


#44 The Chasm

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 00:46

Yes, thanks Ray - I will learn your re-sizing method.

My brain is not ready for educating today - a bit fuzzy !.

Could this be at Leyburn, or Strathpine or White's Hill ?.

Posted Image

I know the image is big, but when the background could be more /helpful/interesting, I don't want to crop it.

Edited by The Chasm, 24 May 2013 - 00:49.


#45 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:14

No need to crop it... resizing a little wouldn't hurt, but it's okay...

Are you scanning these pics? I don't use a scanner any more, but I sit the photo on the floor of my verandah (out of direct sunlight) and photograph it with a digital camera.

I'll take this pic and repost it with some 'post-processing' to see if we can get more quality out of it. See how it works out, in the interim, it looks very Strathpine to me.

#46 The Chasm

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:19

The pics were supplied to me on a CD from a researcher in Sydney - he is doing a book on Connie Jordan, so they are high res scan tiffs.

#47 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:40

Not much I could do with it...

Posted Image

The car to the right with the '4' on its flank would undoubtedly be Snow Sefton's car as he ran at the AGP at Leyburn (two gearboxes, one Ford V8 engine). There's discussion somewhere here about SS100s, I think you might have overlapped the photos from that discussion with this one as that looks like the Thallon car in the middle of it all. That Wolseley isn't the Tritton car, however.

#48 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:45

Originally posted by The Chasm
The pics were supplied to me on a CD from a researcher in Sydney - he is doing a book on Connie Jordan, so they are high res scan tiffs.


So you are changing them to jpgs?

The programme says of Connie:

No. 37. - CONNIE JORDAN, the only lady driver in to-day's race, is not competing in the Grand Prix, but in the Leyburn Handicap with her 1937 M.G.T.C. Con. is a qualified aircraft engineer with Qantas, has a "B" commercial flying licence, and competes regularly in Q.M.S.C. racing events.



#49 austmcreg

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:34

Could this be at Leyburn, or Strathpine or White's Hill ?.
Posted Image

I know the image is big, but when the background could be more /helpful/interesting, I don't want to crop it.


Initially I thought this was two SS100s. but the radiator seems different on the closest car. We had some discussion about Queensland SS100s on the Australian photos thread a month or so back, there may be some overlap. Strathpine 1948 as a starting point? The background seems similar. I will dig out the AMS references tonight, but Terry McGrath will have a good idea.

I have looked at David's suggestion of the Warburton for the aircooled car, and agree that is very likely.

Rob Saward

#50 terry mcgrath

terry mcgrath
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Posted 24 May 2013 - 03:36

A superb photo but until we can sort out actual location and or date it will be difficult to add much.
The 2 cars on the left are certainly 2 SS100's and the first is the Walter Mathison car the second has to be to Thallon car
Mathison owned his 2.5 litre car from at least august 1946 through to nov 1949 and whilst Trove notes he brought the first XK120 in Qld he never actually did.
Thallon owned his 3.5 litre car from dec 1947 through to nov 1949
My records show only 2 occasions where both cars were at the same meeting.
20 june 1948 Lowood entry numbers #11 #19
8 august 1948 Strathpine Thallon #5 Mathison entry # not known.
I do have a record of Mathison at Strathpine on 11 August 1946 as entry #7 which appears to be the number on the grille of the car on left?
terry



Initially I thought this was two SS100s. but the radiator seems different on the closest car. We had some discussion about Queensland SS100s on the Australian photos thread a month or so back, there may be some overlap. Strathpine 1948 as a starting point? The background seems similar. I will dig out the AMS references tonight, but Terry McGrath will have a good idea.

I have looked at David's suggestion of the Warburton for the aircooled car, and agree that is very likely.

Rob Saward


Edited by terry mcgrath, 24 May 2013 - 03:37.