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Max the racer


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#1 David M. Kane

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 00:36

Max Moseley raced in F2. Can anyone tell me the years he participated and what kind chassis he used? Did he score any respectable results? I have heard people over the years mention this, but they never say how he actually did in this class of car which was very, very competitive during
the time he raced in it.

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#2 fines

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 01:38

I hope it's complete:

1967 Meedspeed Racing, U2/Ford
Crystal Palace, DNS, too slow

1968 London Racing Team, Brabham/Ford BT23C
Hockenheim, 9th
Thruxton, ret
Nürburgring, DNA
Jarama, 9th
Zolder, 11th
Crystal Palace, DNS, too slow

1968 Frank Williams Racing Cars, Brabham/Ford BT23C
Hockenheim, ret
Monza, 8th
Zandvoort, ret
Pergusa, DNA
Hockenheim, DNA
Vallelunga, 14th

1969 Len Street Engineering, Lotus/Ford 59B
Thruxton, DNA
Hockenheim, DNA
Nürburgring, DNS, accident
Jarama, DNA

By then he got the message...

#3 bira

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 03:01

In Mosley's own words:

On April 7, 1968, at 28 years of age, Max found himself in his first Formula 2 race at Hockenheim, Germany, along with the stellar likes of Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jean-Pierre Beltoise, Derek Bell, Henri Pescarolo, Jo Schlesser and Piers Courage. In a tragic race that claimed Clark's life, Max finished 10th out of 18 cars in the first heat (and 9th overall in both heats), passing Graham Hill's Lotus in the process.

What does he remember of Jim Clark's accident on that fateful day? "I just remember seeing the ambulance parked off to one side of the track [and thinking that] someone had obviously gone into the trees. I also remember catching Graham Hill and overtaking him, which was one of the high points of my career. It was wet, the tires on the two Team Lotus cars were inferior to the ones I had, so it had nothing to do with skill: I was never any good. But I finished 10th and Hill finished 11th."

A year later, a shunt at the old 14.1 mile Nurburgring circuit in his privately owned Lotus F2 car brought Max's driving career to an end. Max describes what happened:


"As Lotuses were apt to do in those days, the front wishbone dropped off the suspension upright and caught in the wheel on the flat out fifth gear right-hander just coming out of the trees after Schwalbenschwantz (Swallowtail).

"The left front wheel stopped turning and I thought, 'This is trouble', and I ended up in the caravan park. Then I took [my customer F2 Lotus] back to Lotus and they fixed it. And I took it out to Snetterton to test it and the brake disc sheared off while I was braking; as you might imagine, it's very difficult to control the front of the car when the front brakes fail. I had had about enough then and I took the car back to the Lotus racing division and turned it back to Colin Chapman, who promptly sold it to some Germans. It was evident that I wasn't going to be World Champion."



http://www.atlasf1.c...eur/okeefe.html

#4 Ralliart

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 03:06

There was an article in F1 Racing a year or two back that had, I believe, Derek Bell and others describe the racing talents of Mosley, Eddie Jordan, Patrick Head and others now in administrative capacities whereas once they were race car drivers.

#5 David M. Kane

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 20:08

To walk away from any flat out in 5th gear crash is a blessing, so I have a
little more respect for Max. It sounds like he gave a pretty honest account of his efforts, for this I have to give him some more respect.

Thanks for the excellent information, it is much appreciated.

#6 Rob29

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 08:59

I seem to remember he was quite competitive in clubmans racing in '67. I have a photo of him at Brands that year. In 1968 he took his F2 Brabham to Pheonix Park forr the F.Libre race, drove one lap and went home claiming circuit too dangerous!

#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 09:37

Originally posted by fines
I hope it's complete:

1967 Meedspeed Racing, U2/Ford
Crystal Palace, DNS, too slow.....


Hmmm... let's see?

Originally posted by Rob29
I seem to remember he was quite competitive in clubmans racing in '67. I have a photo of him at Brands that year.....


Apparently not...

#8 Tumppi@BXL

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 09:49

Originally posted by fines
1969 Len Street Engineering, Lotus/Ford 59B


Which looks like this ;)

Posted Image

Not sure if the paintwork has been redone since Max's time, picture was taken at Zolder Historic GP last summer, and the vehicle description states it was driven by Max.

#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 10:21

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Hmmm... let's see?



Apparently not...


I think Michael was referring only to his F2 record. That Crystal Palace race would have been a very speculative entry, Ray. The U2 was a Clubman class sports/racing car, one or two Marks of which were built or adapted as single-seaters. There was a FJ version of the Mk2, a F3 version of the Mk3 and a F2 version of the Mk6. This last was built and campaigned in British national and a few European events by the car's creator Arthur Mallock, who was no spring chicken by then - he had been a competitor in the first British post-War event in 1945, the Filton Sprint.

Chances are Max saw that Arthur had done this, took the wings off his own car and gave it a go, only to find that he was in no way competitive - he probably only had the standard 1500cc twin-cam Ford engine in it.

Oh - did I mention that the U2 was front-engined?

Tumppi@BXL: interesting pic of the 59, but I'd have thought the Winkelmann paint job would indicate a claimed connection with Jochen Rindt and/or Graham Hill. Winkelmann Racing was a semi-works Lotus F2 team in 1969. But maybe it's Mosley's car made up to look like Rindt's ....

#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 10:41

I know well of Mallock, his exploits with his cars in openwheeler events and the U2 itself, Vitesse...

And the ID on that pic says 'Lotus 37'!

#11 Tumppi@BXL

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 11:14

Originally posted by Ray Bell
And the ID on that pic says 'Lotus 37'!


Errm, well, I kinda named the file lotus37.jpg, as it was a Lotus and has a number 37 on it. Indicates nothing more.

I have a photo of the car history leaflet home, and I am quite certain it says "Driven by Max Mosley" in it, as I tend to pick up thigs from our chairman's history - always an enjoyment at the office.

More details on the Lotus in the evening, the HGP event programme classifies it as "Lotus 59 FVA (1968)", according to my notes, so it should be at least the model Max ran in 1969.

#12 petefenelon

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 11:17

Originally posted by Ray Bell

And the ID on that pic says 'Lotus 37'!


grin - well, the 37 was a Clubmans' car wasn't it? :) (ISTR it was the ultimate racing development of the 7 - and didn't have much to do with Lotus at all, really?;)

pete

#13 VDP

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 11:23

The picture depict a Winkelmann car, chassis was 20 and 19
Mosley ran chassis 21 for Len street
Source" l'autombile"

Robert

#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 11:37

Originally posted by Tumppi@BXL

More details on the Lotus in the evening, the HGP event programme classifies it as "Lotus 59 FVA (1968)", according to my notes, so it should be at least the model Max ran in 1969.


Err, well ....

No argument that if it's a F2 Lotus it's the type Max ran in 1969. Or that it would have had an FVA.

However, if it's a F2 car it's a 59B, not a 59, which was the F3 version as campaigned by GLTL and several privateers. It's not a 1968 car, but a 1969 model - the 1968 F2 Lotus was the 48, which had first run in the 1967 Tasman Series.

VDP: any idea who these "Germans" were who bought c/n 21?

#15 Eric McLoughlin

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 12:49

I was watching some old video tapes I recorded in 1985 last night and came across the BBC "100 Great Sporting Moments" which featured a "Team Managers" race from 1971 held at Brands Hatch. Taking part in the race were Colin Chapman, Ken Tyrell, Jack Brabham, John Surtees, Frank Williams and Max Mosely. They were all driving identical Ford Escort Mk1 Mexicos and the race was won by Jack Brabham. Chapman had taken the lead on the last lap only for his engine to blow up coming around Clearways for the last time. Mosely was nowhere. Does anyone know if this was Moseley's last ever race and does anyone have an exact date for the event?

By the way, the BBC commentator was the recently deceaed Barrie Gill and his resident "expert" was Graham Hill. Best comment from the race was:

Gill: Chapman is pushing Brabham so hard now that Jack must be spending all his time looking in his mirrors"
Hill: "Jack has never been known to use his mirrors".

#16 Tim Murray

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 17:22

'Twas a supporting event to the F1 Victory Race in October 1971 when poor Seppi lost his life. I remember the Mexico race as a good one, definitely no holds barred, but can't recall much about Mosley's performance. :rolleyes:

#17 Alan Cox

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 17:28

Although it is true that Max failed to shine in F2, he was a contender in Clubmans in 1967 racing with the Meadspeed U2 (I'm pretty sure that this is the correct spelling of Meadspeed). Not one of Clubmans' greatest years but I can remember his protagonists including luminaries such as Howard Heery with the Midland Garages Chevron and the Lotus 7 of John Moulds.

I also note that he came up against an entry for John Carden (Chevron) in an Oulton Park round - am I correct in thinking that Carden was the only guy, apart from de Portago, to have raced both cars at Aintree and also ridden in the Grand National?

#18 Pete Stowe

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Posted 11 March 2003 - 19:11

Originally posted by Vitesse2


......... Arthur Mallock, who was no spring chicken by then - he had been a competitor in the first British post-War event in 1945, the Filton Sprint.


OT, but in the interests of historical accuracy, the first British post-war event was the Naish Hill climb in August 1945, Filton was the second car event.

#19 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 March 2003 - 22:13

Ooops! :blush:

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#20 Cirrus

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 08:55

Hill: "Jack has never been known to use his mirrors".




Maybe not for seeing with, but they have other uses - ask Chris Amon

#21 Tumppi@BXL

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 18:02

Originally posted by Tumppi@BXL

More details on the Lotus in the evening, the HGP event programme classifies it as "Lotus 59 FVA (1968)", according to my notes, so it should be at least the model Max ran in 1969.


Darn, it took a while to find the other photo. This is what the vehicle description said:

Car no. 37 Lotus 59B powered by FWA engine

Built 1969

This car was originally run by Roy Winkelmann Racing for Max Mosley, Graham Hill and John Miles. The team also ran a car for 1970 World Champion - Jochen Rindt.

Owned and Driven By: Richard Spielberg - who finished 5th in Class at the FORCE Silverstone International Trophy Race in 2001.

Car Prepared by Peter Denty.



Is that then correct or not - that one I leave for you to decide.  ;)

#22 David Birchall

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 03:35

I have just been offered the "Ex Mosely" Mallock U2 clubmans car. still with 1500 cc twin cam and still with the original Cortina rear axle etc.. . The question is: does having Max Mosely as a previous owner help the value or harm it ? I note that every Mallock ever offered for sale is the car that "Arthur Mallock drove in F2".

#23 ensign14

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 20:33

Originally posted by David Birchall
The question is: does having Max Mosely as a previous owner help the value or harm it ?

:rotfl:

#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 April 2003 - 10:45

Originally posted by David Birchall
.....still with the original Cortina rear axle etc.....


Immediate cause for suspicion...

The Cortina rear end was very heavy, most used the BMC A-Series axle.

#25 David Birchall

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Posted 21 April 2003 - 16:53

Thanks Ray, that ought to bring the price down a bit eh?

#26 dbw

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Posted 21 April 2003 - 17:47

ha! i love the commentary...anyone that has owned or raced a lotus as delivered knows all too well the joy of critical bit coming adrift at the most unexpected time! :eek:

#27 clarko1230

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 12:24

Hi all:
I am desperate looking for a photo of Max Mosley´s Lotus 59 "Len Street Engineering" that reced at III Gran Premio Madrid Jarama in 1969
Can someone help me?
If is a photo of another race,no matter

#28 sterling49

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 12:27

I think he raced a Brabham BT 23 but started off in Clubmans Formula in I think a U2 (1600 pushrod Ford Engine) I saw him regularly at Brands.....which Is why I dislike his antics in F1 now, they have short memories when they have high office...........

#29 clarko1230

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 12:33

Thanks for your info I am pretty sure he also drove a lotus ....if only I could guess its colour......

#30 sterling49

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 12:39

will look in old MotorSports...........another guy I saw thats fades with time.......... :rotfl:

#31 Rob29

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 13:00

Originally posted by clarko1230
Thanks for your info I am pretty sure he also drove a lotus ....if only I could guess its colour......

He did.Sorry only info I have for Jarama GP;13/4/69,M.Mosley race#16 Lotus-FVA 59B,entrant; Len Street (Engineering) Ltd,pt.1-38.3;retired lap15(injector trumpet)
Nurburgring,27/4/69;#21 chassis #21 ns(practice damage)

Chasis#21 seems to have then been retuned to the 'works'RoyWinkelmann team-driven by Ronnie Peterson at Albi,and John Miles at Vallelunga.

#32 RS2000

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 13:43

I am not a great fan of Mosley's more recent FIA performance (but we must remember just what he inherited in earlier days and turned around). I am even less impressed by recent TV film of some of his youthful political appearances long before any motorsport involvement.
What I do recall though is the almost monotonous regularity with which I used to read in the weekly motorsport press of winning performances in the U2. Regardless of how well funded that cluman formula programme was, it still takes a driver and the record I recall was impressive.

#33 sterling49

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 14:17

Originally posted by RS2000
I am not a great fan of Mosley's more recent FIA performance (but we must remember just what he inherited in earlier days and turned around). I am even less impressed by recent TV film of some of his youthful political appearances long before any moptorsport involvement.
What I do recall though is the almost monotonous regularity with which I used to read in the weekly motorsport press of winning performances in the U2. Regardless of how well funded that cluman formula programme was, it still takes a driver and the record I recall was impressive.

agreed, he had good competition from the likes of Howard heerey, Aurthur mallock, and other names which escape me, Jack Murrel....D.R.W.?

#34 Mallory Dan

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 14:44

RS2000, as I recall world motorsport was fairly healthy when Max M inherited it. As far as I'm concerned any 'turning round' he's done has been for the worst. What were his earlier and youthful political appearances??

#35 sterling49

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 14:50

I think he had a notorious uncle that wore a uniform consisting of Black Shirts................. :eek:

#36 MrMacca

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 15:13

That was actually his father.............as he said, with that legacy he couldn't go into politics, so motor racing benefitted from his political skills instead..........

:down:

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#37 sterling49

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 15:33

and ever since our cup has runneth over.............what heavenly joy :clap:

#38 roger ellis

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 13:24

I think MM has always been very honest about his level of competence behind the wheel, and IIRC, a remark of his that when racing he found the straights quite easy - it was the corners that were difficult !

#39 LotusElise

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 14:39

I never knew that Max ever raced until now - you learn something new every day. :)

Does anyone else find it odd that he never changed his name, considering who his father was?

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#40 David M. Kane

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 14:41

U2s and F2s are serious cars, so let's give him credit on that; it's his total lack of sense that bothers me. Having said that, he sure beats the guy he replaced!

#41 sterling49

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 14:53

Originally posted by David M. Kane
U2s and F2s are serious cars, so let's give him credit on that; it's his total lack of sense that bothers me. Having said that, he sure beats the guy he replaced!



Was that Jean Marie Balestre? :kiss: if so, he was always about as popular as a fart in a space suit! :lol: What the FIA and the CSI got up to.....it turned into a soap opera, FICA,FOCA, drivers lock ins in South Africa.....this was really aboutthe time I considered that my sport was becoming lost on me.....................now I do not even turn the set on to watch the start....................

#42 Sharman

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 15:55

That was not very difficult to do David, M. Balestre was completely unpredictable unless any decision concerning France was required. Don't forget that M. Chauvin was also French.
JF

#43 scheivlak

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 16:48

Originally posted by Sharman
That was not very difficult to do David, M. Balestre was completely unpredictable unless any decision concerning France was required. Don't forget that M. Chauvin was also French.
JF

:rolleyes:

Don't think the British are above chauvinism - or, in fact, people from any other nation.

And his worst decision was not punishing Senna for Suzuka 1990!

#44 sterling49

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 18:06

I really do not know whose fault it was, but as a youngster I never could quite work out how the works Mini's and Lotus Cortinas were disqualified from, I think the top 3 or 4 places....until you see the winner was after these exclusions....a Citroen DS21! They pulled the Brits up on their headlights, but it all appeared a bit spurious to me.......I like to think that sport is sport and wins are "fair and square". I think they really had some over zealous eligibility scrutineers and sadly it has left me with this view. Not forgetting the the Abingdon Minis had won in '64 and '65 also!

#45 sterling49

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 18:13

Sorry, that was reference the Monte Carlo Rally!!!! :rolleyes: