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Grand Prix de la Sarre 1949


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#1 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 12 March 2003 - 22:23

It was won by Harry Schell, indeed, but who were the losers ? What distance ? What kind of track ?
And what about the ban on Germany ? (Because Saar was under French control ?)

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#2 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 06:00

Jimmy - I can check in my few magazines for you. Was this a F II or F III event? Can you provide a more precise date than 1949?

#3 Egon Thurner

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 07:02

Most probably you are speaking of the sportscar race at Sarrebruck
Date: 18.9.1949

It was not a FIA sanctioned race.

Class over 2000cc:
1. - Harry Schell (Talbot Monoplace Decalée) s/n 90130
2. - Veuillet (Delage D6.70)
3. - Haser (Delage D6.70)

Winner's average speed: 112,450 km/h

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 07:30

Same day as the Delahaye won the Australian Grand Prix at Leyburn...

Maybe you should include this one, Hans?

#5 Egon Thurner

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 07:32

Ray, you don't have a digitalized picture of the Delahaye, do you ?

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 07:36

I'm sure there's one or two posted around here... have you checked the threads on Lobethal (John Snow driving) or Leyburn?

Here's Snow now...

Posted Image

#7 Egon Thurner

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 07:43

Great, Ray!

I couldn't find any pic of it with the keywords 'Delahaye' and 'Leyburn' in the search utility.

Do you know it's (europeen) pre-owners ?

#8 uechtel

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 08:24

Egon,

my results, extracted from an article in "der Motorsport" are slightly different regarding second place:

Formula Libre race:

1. Harry Schell - Talbot
2. Eugene Martin - Jicey-BMW
3. Auguste Veuillet Delage

also started:
Helmut Polensky - Monopol-BMW
Petermax Müller - Pertrix-VW

Sports cars up to 2 litre:

1. Armand Philippe - Veritas RS
2. Ralph Roese - Veritas RS
3. Huschke von Hanstein - BMW 328
4. Theo Helfrich - Veritas RS
5. Helmut Weißenberger - BMW Eigenbau

also started:

Walter? Schlüter ("Retülsch"?) - Eigenbau-BMW?

Sports cars up to 1.5 litre:

1. Helm Glöckler - Veritas RS
2. Heinz Mölders - Veritas RS
3. Eduard Gräske - Veritas RS

So where do you have your information from?

And concerning the ban on Germany: I don´t think the Saar region was regarded as part of Germany at that time. The area was under French control, but no integral part of their occupation zone. For example as late as 1954 the "Saarland" contested the World Football (Soccer) Championship qualifiers with an own "national" team!

#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 09:16

Egon...

Unfortunately, all I have is a note that it was an ex-Le Mans car and that Snow had finished fourth in the 1938 Antwerp GP in it.

John Medley would be able to tell you. It's undoubtedly detailed in his Bathurst book, but I don't have that here with me right now.

#10 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 09:42

MOTOR Rundschau, No. 19, p.456 – October 10, 1949
The Saar-Uferstrecken-Rennen in Saarbrücken took place on September 18 with participation of numerous German drivers. In the smallest racing car class, the DKW driver Lauer from Eppelborn was victorious, in the 1100 cc-class the German champion Petermax Müller and in the sports car class up to 1500 cc the German champion H. Glöckner on Veritas. In the 2-liter-sports car class the German champion Roese from Düsseldorf on Veritas came second behind Frenchman Armand also on Veritas…

#11 uechtel

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 09:53

...In the smallest racing car class, the DKW driver Lauer from Eppelborn was victorious...



Posted Image

Sorry for omitting the results of the minor classes, but I have to look them up first.

#12 alessandro silva

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 17:41

Something messed up about this race! Let's try to sort it out.
Pierre Abeillon in the Talbot-Lago book vol I page 233 says there were different races for spots cars and racing cars.

Sports unlimited
1. Schell Talbot MD 90130
2. Veuillet Delage
3. Haser (who's he??) Delage

Formule libre:
1. Schell Cisitalia
2. E. Martin Jicey-BMW
3. Veuilletr BMW???

Did Schell still have the Cisitalia?

#13 uechtel

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 21:47

Ok, I´m at home now, so I am able to re-read the article in "der Motorsport".

First of all I have to correct myself as the article does indeed report about the French drivers being threatened with a ban ("disqualification") because of their partcipation in this event! In addition to that the German drivers seem to have had some passport difficulties so many of them arrived too late for practise.

The article begins with a short description of the track: "Without doubt the track has some difficulties under wet conditions, but it is very interesting in the sporting sense, it has a long straight, uphill and downhill passages and some very interesting and also difficult corners. Alas practise time has been a little bit too short, but this is understandable regarding the fact, that the track runs through three villages."

"The race of the sports car has been a clear matter because of the strong German participation, as there have been enough cars in all three classes. This first meeting with the French drivers has been very interesting for us [remember: at that time the euphoria about pre-war silverarrows supremacy was still very much alive in Germany], but we have to admit, that not all of the fastest foreign cars have been there."

"The 2 litre category had a superb entry. And there was a great surprise. The field was lead by Roese, behind him the young Mannheim-resident Helfrich in his blue Veritas was able to stay in second position for many laps, but near the end of the race he began to drop back because of a tyre damage. Roese, who by the way suffered much from a tooth-ache, now saw a blue car coming up in the last laps and of course he thought, that this was Helfrich, who was already a lap down. Only when the blue car passed him he recognized Frenchman Armand Philippe, who was able to cross the line a meter ahead of Roese. Helfrich came in third in front of Weißenberger, with von Hanstein bringing up the rear after Retülsch´s retirement."

"In between there was also a race for the big French sports cars, which was won by Harry Schell in the 4.5 litre Talbot, which he uses also for Grand Prix events. Second place was Frenchman Auguste Veuillet on Delage and third - the race director of the event - Valentin Hauser, Saarbrücken-resident, in another Delage, which had been kindfully handed over to him by a French driver."

"The last event was a 'race for everybody'. First there was some confusion, as there was a mess of sports cars and race cars and nobody was able to understand how the grid positions were awarded. Even Petermax Müller took part again. The best chances of the German drivers had Helmut Polensky, but he had to retire to avaoid a damaged engine bearing. The race was again won by hazardously driving Schell in front of the best and most beautiful car, the Jicey-BMW with Martin at the wheel, who in our opinion has been the winner of that race.
With 14 drivers taking part this last race has been a little bit too much for the track and the hand-made timekeeping..."

Result lists:
Sportscars 1100 cc:
1. Petermax Müller, VW, 44:06 = 97,95 km/h
2. Josef Kulzer, Fiat, 44:24 = 97,29 km/h
3. Paul Dübbers, AF, 46:10 = 93,57 km/h
4. Fritz van Erp, AFM, 46:57 = 92,01 km/h
5. Boyer, Fiat, 47:01 = 91,88 km/h
6. Henry Granget, Cisitalia "Mille Miglia" sport, 50:48 = 88,61 km/h

Sportscars 1500 cc:
1. Helm[ut] Glöckler, Veritas, 47:54 = 109,44 km/h
2. Theo [should read "Heinz"!] Mölders, Veritas, 49:00 = 105,72 km/h
3. Eduard Gräske, Veritas, 49:11 = 105,40 km/h

Sportscars 2000 cc:
1. Armand Philippe, Veritas, 46:35 = 111,24 km/h
2. Ralph Roese, Veritas, 46:36 = 111,24 km/h
3. Huschke von Hanstein, BMW
4. Theo Helfrich, Veritas, 1 lap down
5. Theo Weißenberger, BMW Eigenbau [the ex Schöpflin car], 1 lap down

Sports cars unlimited:
1. Harry Schell, Talbot, 38:25 = 112,45 km/h
2. Auguste Veuillet, Delage, 39:02 = 110,67 km/h
3. Valentin Hauser, Delage, 44:06 = 97,96 km/h

Free Formula:
1. Harry Schell, Talbot
2. Robert [rather Eugene!] Martin, Jicey-BMW
3. Auguste Veuillet, Delage

Further cars mentioned in the article are a 1750 cc Alfa Romeo of Primo Bizarri and a 1500 cc Simca-Gordini driven by Loyer.

And in addition to that here I am able to proudly present pictures of two of the winners...

Schell in the Talbot:

Posted Image

and this is Philippe in the Veritas:

Posted Image

And finally a shot of von Hanstein in his borrowed BMW 328 at the same event:

Posted Image

#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 22:10

Originally posted by uechtel
.....and this is Philippe in the Veritas:

Posted Image


So is this a 'Barquette' or a 'Barchetta'?

Or is there some complicated German name for it?

And is this very flat cornering or is he in a nice little slide?

#15 David McKinney

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 22:16

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
Do you know it's (europeen) pre-owners ?


The Australian Delahaye, c/no 47190, was raced by Paris/Mongin in the 1935 Le Mans 24hrs (5th) and the 1936 ACF Grand Prix (2nd), by Mongin in the 1936 TT (DNF) and in 1937 by Chaboud/Tremoulet in the Le Mans 24hrs (DNF), ACF Grand Prix (6th) and Marne GP (6th).
Snow raced it at Crystal Palace 2/4/38 without being placed, and at Antwerp 22/5/38 (4th)

#16 uechtel

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 23:21

So is this a 'Barquette' or a 'Barchetta'?



Nick-names for that (kind of) car in Germany were: Badewanne ("bathtub"), Aerosaurier ("aerosaur"), or with a little bit more respect: Ponton ("pontoon") or simply Stromlinie ("streamliner").

The Veritas RS, the first attempt for a production series competitive sports car, to be followed by Formula 2 cars. The Veritas RS was THE dream sports car and of course also the most expensive publicly offered car in those years in Germany, so in fact some parallel to Ferrari, of course with a totally different outcome in the end.

#17 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 March 2003 - 07:05

Originally posted by David McKinney
The Australian Delahaye, c/no 47190, was raced by Paris/Mongin in the 1935 Le Mans 24hrs (5th) and the 1936 ACF Grand Prix (2nd), by Mongin in the 1936 TT (DNF) and in 1937 by Chaboud/Tremoulet in the Le Mans 24hrs (DNF), ACF Grand Prix (6th) and Marne GP (6th).
Snow raced it at Crystal Palace 2/4/38 without being placed, and at Antwerp 22/5/38 (4th)


There is some comment about its fate after the 1951 Australian Grand Prix, Egon... not sure where, but I'm sure that in the last few months the fire, the rebuilding etc have been mentioned.

#18 Egon Thurner

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Posted 14 March 2003 - 09:28

Originally posted by David McKinney
The Australian Delahaye, c/no 47190, was raced by Paris/Mongin in the 1935 Le Mans 24hrs (5th) and the 1936 ACF Grand Prix (2nd), by Mongin in the 1936 TT (DNF) and in 1937 by Chaboud/Tremoulet in the Le Mans 24hrs (DNF), ACF Grand Prix (6th) and Marne GP (6th).
Snow raced it at Crystal Palace 2/4/38 without being placed, and at Antwerp 22/5/38 (4th)

Thanks, David. I know the history of the car a bit. It was one of the two with central headlamp (the other was one of the Schell-cars.) so not hard to identify in its earlier life. It was crashed two times in 1936 and one time in 1937. Chaboud did some rebuilding work in 1937, but I don't know, when it lost the centrale lamp, 1937 or 1936.

But what I wanted to know is, who owned the car, before it was sold to Chaboud in the end of 1936? 'Paris' or Mongin or somebody else?

BTW I doubt the 1935 LM car of Paris/Mongin to be the same. I think, they drove a modified 18CV (with shorter wheelbase, chassis of an 12CV?) in 1935 and their 135CS was all new, when it appeared in the 3 Hours of Marseilles on May, 24 in 1936.
Is anyboudy around here who can post a pic of the Le Mans car no #7 in 1935 ?

Originally posted by Ray Bell
There is some comment about its fate after the 1951 Australian Grand Prix, Egon... not sure where, but I'm sure that in the last few months the fire, the rebuilding etc have been mentioned.

Ray, do you mean 'mentioned' here in TNF or elsewhere, f.e. in some australian magazine ? That would be of some interest for me.

#19 Egon Thurner

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Posted 14 March 2003 - 09:35

... ah, and uechtel, very good stuff that about Sarrebruck :up:

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#20 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 March 2003 - 10:01

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
Ray, do you mean 'mentioned' here in TNF or elsewhere, f.e. in some australian magazine ? That would be of some interest for me.


http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=52339

:)

#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 March 2003 - 10:32

Egon... I'm sure you need to have a copy of The Official 50-race History of the Australian Grand Prix...

It seems to cover many of your interests.

#22 Egon Thurner

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Posted 14 March 2003 - 10:50

You are quite correct, Ray, ....

... but there is a lot of interests ...
.. and such a lot of books, too ....
...where should I begin ? :lol:

BTW, I sent you a mail with a very odd question some days ago, didn't you get it ?

#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 March 2003 - 11:18

I only access my regular e.mail one week in four at the moment... I should do something about it...

How about a PM? Odd questions arouse my curiosity...

#24 Yves

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Posted 14 March 2003 - 16:32

Originally posted by uechtel And concerning the ban on Germany: I don´t think the Saar region was regarded as part of Germany at that time. The area was under French control, but no integral part of their occupation zone. For example as late as 1954 the "Saarland" contested the World Football (Soccer) Championship qualifiers with an own "national" team! [/B]


Following WWI and german defeat, the Sarre land is separated by the treaty of Versailles from Germany and placed under the authority of a gouvernemenntal commision of the "Société des Nations". France ask for accession (for historical reason, Sarre has been part of France after the french revolution) but only obtain property of coal mining.
A referendum won by 90% of the voters in 1935 lead to reunification with Germany. During WWII, this is the french departement of Mosell that was annexed to the "Gau Westmark".
After the war, a constitution for autonomy and economic union with France was voted by the population and parlement the 5th october 1947.
So it was the statut when this race took place.
After that, long negociation took place between Germany and France to set up a european status but it was rejected by referendum in 1955.
The land has been reunified to Germany by the Luxemburg treaty in 1956 and completed in 1959 when the deutsch mark replaced the french franc.
This land is historically linked in many ways with France : one of the land president name is Oskar Lafontaine, whose family emigrate to Germany from France under Louis XIV as lots of protestants.

Y.

#25 fines

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Posted 15 March 2003 - 19:19

Originally posted by Yves
Oskar Lafontaine, whose family emigrate to Germany from France under Louis XIV as lots of protestants.

You can have him back... :cat:

#26 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 15 March 2003 - 20:42

Thanks everybody for the information.
I must understand that Harry Schell won in a Talbot Lago, not in a Cisitalia.
And that it was a formula libre event, not a F2.

#27 Egon Thurner

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Posted 15 March 2003 - 20:51

Jimmy, it was a sportscar-race ! Otherwise Harry had for sure removed the mudguards and the lights. He changed that details, how he needed them.

#28 uechtel

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Posted 15 March 2003 - 21:37

Egon, the event itself was rather a sports car event, but the last race of the day was definitely Formule Libre! No way for the Jicey monoposto to comply to sports car rules!

It is not clear whether the picture was taken in the sports car race, so it is still possible, that Schell had removed the wings after his first start. Or perhaps he did not have enough time to do so after the finish of his first race.

#29 Egon Thurner

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Posted 15 March 2003 - 21:54

Hm, the Talbot was no monoposto? Remember: 'Monoplace decalée' ! In french sportscar-races often 'Monoplaces' where raced, just fitted with mudguards and headlights. Or do you refer to a central seating position of the Jicey ? (And about the Jicey: Did it start at Sarrebruck - or where you speaking of Polensky's Monopol ?)

And I always thought, that Harry at Sarrebruck started in one race only? Have I missed soemething ?

#30 uechtel

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Posted 16 March 2003 - 10:33

Egon,

please re-read my post No. 13:
After the various class races of the sports cars there was a final race "for everybody" at the end of the day. In that it was allowed to bring everything to the start, single seater race cars of sports cars of whatever engine capacity.

Schell won both, his sports car class and this final Formule Libre race, so this might be the cause for some of the confusion, but definitevly two races!

And I did not say, that the Talbot was a two-seater. All I said was that the Jicey was definitevly not a sports car to prove, that there were central seated single seater race cars allowed (only in that final race of the day), so that this particular race must not be regarded as a sports car event.

To confirm that, here a picture of Martin´s Jicey (but taken earlier that season at Angouleme):

Posted Image

And, yes, the report confirms the start of the Jicey including the statement, that this was the most beautiful car with the best finish at that event. So I do not doubt that.

alles klar?

But what does indeed make me wonder is the fact, that the 750 cc race car category is completely omitted in that article! Was the reporter still in bed when it took place? I think the rest of the report is rather authentic.

#31 Egon Thurner

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Posted 16 March 2003 - 17:40

Thanks for correcting and enlighten me, uechtel. Seemingly I had a bad day yesterday. :