This is a question for Britons with long memories. I am interested in Canadian drivers who raced in the Britain before 1975. I can think of five postwar drivers:
Bill Sadler raced his Sadler-Chev in the U.K. in 1957 while working for Tojeiro
Peter Ryan had a tragically brief run in Formula Junior in 1962
John Cannon raced an F2 March in Britain and on the continent in 1971
David McConnell had an abbreviated F2 season in 1973
Rod Bremner raced in Formula Ford in 1974-75
There's also the mysterious Spike Rhiando (was he really a Canadian?) who raced midgets in the '30s and 500cc F3s postwar. I've read that Kay Petre was born in Canada, but have no idea how long she lived here.
Were there any others, before or after World War II?
Mike
Canadian drivers in the U.K.
Started by
m.tanney
, Apr 11 2003 06:16
70 replies to this topic
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#2
Gerr
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Posted 11 April 2003 - 07:09
Max Aitken and Peter Aitken ?
#3
RJH
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Posted 11 April 2003 - 08:09
Alan Hebb is a Canadian who raced a variety of Formula Ford 1600's, (Brabham, etc), FF2000 (ASD) and Formula Four cars from the late 60's onwards. He still keeps his hand in with long distance Kart races.
#4
David McKinney
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Posted 11 April 2003 - 10:20
Their father was born in Canada but were they?Originally posted by Gerr
Max Aitken and Peter Aitken ?
#5
Vicuna
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Posted 11 April 2003 - 10:21
Why so few Canadians from the 50's and 60's??
#6
Vitesse2
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Posted 11 April 2003 - 10:33
Originally posted by Vicuna
Why so few Canadians from the 50's and 60's??
Name a Canadian circuit of the 50s!
Point made?
Road racing hardly existed there at the time AFAIK - any Canadians who wanted to race went south, not east. I don't think there was a permanent road circuit in Canada until Mosport opened in the 60s.
#7
m.tanney
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Posted 11 April 2003 - 14:35
Originally posted by Gerr
Max Aitken and Peter Aitken ?
Max Aitken was born in Montreal in 1910. Peter was born in England in 1913. Apart from his birth, I don't think that Max had much contact with Canada. Describing him as a Canadian would be a stretch. I think it may have been the same with Kay Petre.
#8
m.tanney
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Posted 11 April 2003 - 15:38
Originally posted by Vitesse2
I don't think there was a permanent road circuit in Canada until Mosport opened in the 60s.
Westwood, in British Columbia, was the first purpose-built road course in Canada. It opened in 1959. For years people in central Canada had talked of building a proper circuit. It's said that Westwood's opening embarassed them into taking action, which resulted in the creation of Mosport (1961) and St. Jovite (1964).
Name a Canadian Circuit of the 50s!
Actually, there were quite a few of them. They were all airport courses. For the most part, they were disused airfields, wartime training facilities. Most of them were permanent, racing-only facilities, they just weren't purpose-built racing circuits. In Ontario alone there were four such tracks: Edenvale (1950), Harewood Acres (1956), St. Eugene (1957), and Greenacres (1959). There was also a temporary circuit at Carp Airport which held one meeting a year from 1952 through 1955.
...any Canadians who wanted to race went south, not east.
In the '50s and '60s Canadian (and American) road racers looked to Britain as their spiritual home. They were devout readers of Autosport and Motorsport. "Sports cars" meant British cars. The driving force behind road racing in Ontario was the British Empire Motor Club (founded in the '30s as a motorcycle club). It is odd that Sadler and Ryan seem to have been the only Canadians who went to race in the U.K.
As for Canadian road racers in the U.S. - that would be a whole different thread.
Mike
I don't think there was a permanent road circuit in Canada until Mosport opened in the 60s.
Westwood, in British Columbia, was the first purpose-built road course in Canada. It opened in 1959. For years people in central Canada had talked of building a proper circuit. It's said that Westwood's opening embarassed them into taking action, which resulted in the creation of Mosport (1961) and St. Jovite (1964).
Name a Canadian Circuit of the 50s!
Actually, there were quite a few of them. They were all airport courses. For the most part, they were disused airfields, wartime training facilities. Most of them were permanent, racing-only facilities, they just weren't purpose-built racing circuits. In Ontario alone there were four such tracks: Edenvale (1950), Harewood Acres (1956), St. Eugene (1957), and Greenacres (1959). There was also a temporary circuit at Carp Airport which held one meeting a year from 1952 through 1955.
...any Canadians who wanted to race went south, not east.
In the '50s and '60s Canadian (and American) road racers looked to Britain as their spiritual home. They were devout readers of Autosport and Motorsport. "Sports cars" meant British cars. The driving force behind road racing in Ontario was the British Empire Motor Club (founded in the '30s as a motorcycle club). It is odd that Sadler and Ryan seem to have been the only Canadians who went to race in the U.K.
As for Canadian road racers in the U.S. - that would be a whole different thread.
Mike
#9
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 April 2003 - 22:04
Maybe Canadian circuits could be a different thread too?
Looks as if, from what you've said there, that racing never took place on public roads. Was there some sort of an impediment to that nationally? Or was it a provincial prohibition?
If the latter, was it ever broken... for instance in the earlier part of last century, when Regal Underslungs were still in vogue and being built in Toronto or Montreal or wherever they were built? Or what about in the twenties and thirties, when Henry had factories north of the border pumping out T-models and A-models, V8s and other iron, matched by GM's and Studebaker's plants that did the same to enable them to export more economically to countries in the British Empire?
The airstrip phenomenon of the post WW2 years seems to parallel what we had here in Australia, but we had some history because of Phillip Island and those other some-time and even semi-permanent arrangements to race on public roads.
We probably had a wider base for the airstrips too, as our shores looked pretty defenceless and encompass such a great proportion of our inhabited areas.
What about public park roads, too, which might have given opportunities had authorities been of a mind to allow such things?
Looks as if, from what you've said there, that racing never took place on public roads. Was there some sort of an impediment to that nationally? Or was it a provincial prohibition?
If the latter, was it ever broken... for instance in the earlier part of last century, when Regal Underslungs were still in vogue and being built in Toronto or Montreal or wherever they were built? Or what about in the twenties and thirties, when Henry had factories north of the border pumping out T-models and A-models, V8s and other iron, matched by GM's and Studebaker's plants that did the same to enable them to export more economically to countries in the British Empire?
The airstrip phenomenon of the post WW2 years seems to parallel what we had here in Australia, but we had some history because of Phillip Island and those other some-time and even semi-permanent arrangements to race on public roads.
We probably had a wider base for the airstrips too, as our shores looked pretty defenceless and encompass such a great proportion of our inhabited areas.
What about public park roads, too, which might have given opportunities had authorities been of a mind to allow such things?
#10
Vitesse2
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Posted 11 April 2003 - 22:51
Mike, I think you've proved my point anyway. Of the Ontario tracks you mention, the only one which rings even a vague bell is Harewood Acres - and that from a TNF posting I think. I must confess to not having paid a lot of attention to the Westwood thread - had I done so, I'd have realised it predated Mosport.
And surely cost and the sheer logistical difficulties of operating 4000 miles from home must have played a major part in discouraging Canadians from coming to Europe? After all, even Americans were few and far between in the 50s: those who did come tended to be associated with - for example - Cunningham, Ferrari or NART: Ginther, Gurney, Hill etc. 'Arry Schell doesn't really count. Mackay Fraser I think came under his own steam, but I'm now racking my brain to think of others ....
And surely cost and the sheer logistical difficulties of operating 4000 miles from home must have played a major part in discouraging Canadians from coming to Europe? After all, even Americans were few and far between in the 50s: those who did come tended to be associated with - for example - Cunningham, Ferrari or NART: Ginther, Gurney, Hill etc. 'Arry Schell doesn't really count. Mackay Fraser I think came under his own steam, but I'm now racking my brain to think of others ....
#11
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 April 2003 - 23:06
What's wrong with you, Richard?
That was one of the most interesting threads we've seen recently... mentioning circuits, cars and personalities in a setting almost totally unknown to us...
That was one of the most interesting threads we've seen recently... mentioning circuits, cars and personalities in a setting almost totally unknown to us...
#12
TEJ
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Posted 12 April 2003 - 04:50
To expand on Mike Tanney's list of Canadian Racing circuits in the 1950s ( hi Mike) I just happen to be writing a book which covers what we then called sports car racing (now road racing) in that era in Western Canada.
Firstly, Westwood Racing Circuit, Canada's first purpose built road circuit was located near Vancouver and opened July 26, 1959. Westwood was owned and operated by the Sports Car Club of British Columbia (SCCBC). Prior to Westwood, SCCBC held races at Abbotsford Airport possibly as early as 1949, and Cassidy Airport near Nanaimo in 1952 as well as Bellingham WA Airport (actually in the USA but some regard it as an effective suburb of Vancouver, others do not, but it is close).
Other 1950s circuits were. Lincoln Park, Shepard and Airdrie near Calgary, Pearse in Southern Alberta, Clairsholm and Rimby in Central Alberta and Edmonton in the North. In Saskatchewan the Sports Car Club of Saskatchewan started their long running Davidson Races in 1957. Manitoba had races at Netley, Dauphin and Carberry.
Many of these circuits were, as has been mentioned, abandoned WWII air training airports, not all.
In 1939 Canada signed an agreement with the UK, Australia and New Zealand to create the Commonwealth Air Training Plan that went on to be Canada's major contribution to victory in WWII. The plan trained over 130,000 air crew by 1945. The construction of over 100 airfields and other training sites is reputed to be, to this day, the largest construction project in Canadian history, bigger than the St. Lawrence Seaway and bigger than either of the transcontinental railroads. All of this is effectively forgotten today. The motor racing history became an unlikely legacy of the BCATP.
The entire cost to Canada for construction and training (other counties contributed as well) exceeded two billion 1940 Canadian Dollars. Want to guess what that would equate to today?
As far a other Canadian drivers in the UK prior to 1975: Wayne Mitchell of Winnipeg F3, Frank Allers of Vancouver FF, Bob McLean of Vancouver did a few school races in the 1960s, I am sure there were others.
Sorry to ramble on but as you can guess I have been researching this subject for over a year, effectively full time.
Prior to WWII there was plenty of motorsport in Canada going back to 1901.
Nostalga Forum members might find our recently set up Canadian Forum interesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cmshg/ will get you there.
Tom Johnston from West Vancouver
Firstly, Westwood Racing Circuit, Canada's first purpose built road circuit was located near Vancouver and opened July 26, 1959. Westwood was owned and operated by the Sports Car Club of British Columbia (SCCBC). Prior to Westwood, SCCBC held races at Abbotsford Airport possibly as early as 1949, and Cassidy Airport near Nanaimo in 1952 as well as Bellingham WA Airport (actually in the USA but some regard it as an effective suburb of Vancouver, others do not, but it is close).
Other 1950s circuits were. Lincoln Park, Shepard and Airdrie near Calgary, Pearse in Southern Alberta, Clairsholm and Rimby in Central Alberta and Edmonton in the North. In Saskatchewan the Sports Car Club of Saskatchewan started their long running Davidson Races in 1957. Manitoba had races at Netley, Dauphin and Carberry.
Many of these circuits were, as has been mentioned, abandoned WWII air training airports, not all.
In 1939 Canada signed an agreement with the UK, Australia and New Zealand to create the Commonwealth Air Training Plan that went on to be Canada's major contribution to victory in WWII. The plan trained over 130,000 air crew by 1945. The construction of over 100 airfields and other training sites is reputed to be, to this day, the largest construction project in Canadian history, bigger than the St. Lawrence Seaway and bigger than either of the transcontinental railroads. All of this is effectively forgotten today. The motor racing history became an unlikely legacy of the BCATP.
The entire cost to Canada for construction and training (other counties contributed as well) exceeded two billion 1940 Canadian Dollars. Want to guess what that would equate to today?
As far a other Canadian drivers in the UK prior to 1975: Wayne Mitchell of Winnipeg F3, Frank Allers of Vancouver FF, Bob McLean of Vancouver did a few school races in the 1960s, I am sure there were others.
Sorry to ramble on but as you can guess I have been researching this subject for over a year, effectively full time.
Prior to WWII there was plenty of motorsport in Canada going back to 1901.
Nostalga Forum members might find our recently set up Canadian Forum interesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cmshg/ will get you there.
Tom Johnston from West Vancouver
#13
Ray Bell
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Posted 12 April 2003 - 08:37
Don't be bashful, Tom...
Start a thread about those circuits, especially those dating back before WW2... tell us what kind of circuits they were, how they came into being and who raced there in what.
I mean, what's a few hours between friends?
Start a thread about those circuits, especially those dating back before WW2... tell us what kind of circuits they were, how they came into being and who raced there in what.
I mean, what's a few hours between friends?
#14
David Holland
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Posted 12 April 2003 - 09:34
A couple more Canadians in Europe:-
Peter Broeker converted his Stebro to F2 spec and raced at Pau, Reims, Vienna, Berlin and Rome in 1964 or 65.
Ludwig Heimrath competed at Pau, but I don't know which year.
Also of the 11 Canadian championship GP drivers, 5 were "borrowed" from abroad.
Cannon and Pease were born in England, Ryan and Broeker in the USA and Eppie Wietzes is from the Netherlands!
Peter Broeker converted his Stebro to F2 spec and raced at Pau, Reims, Vienna, Berlin and Rome in 1964 or 65.
Ludwig Heimrath competed at Pau, but I don't know which year.
Also of the 11 Canadian championship GP drivers, 5 were "borrowed" from abroad.
Cannon and Pease were born in England, Ryan and Broeker in the USA and Eppie Wietzes is from the Netherlands!
#15
m.tanney
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Posted 12 April 2003 - 14:28
Originally posted by Ray Bell
Maybe Canadian circuits could be a different thread too?...Looks as if, from what you've said there, that racing never took place on public roads. Was there some sort of an impediment to that nationally? Or was it a provincial prohibition?... If the latter, was it ever broken... What about public park roads, too, which might have given opportunities had authorities been of a mind to allow such things?
We are veering O.T. here, but since you asked, Ray: an annual road race was held on the open roads outside of Winnipeg, Manitoba from 1904 through 1906. Those are the earliest known road races in Canada. They also seem to be the last road races of any kind anywhere in Canada until 1949. I don't know of any legal prohibition against such events (it would have been a provincial matter), or against the use of public parks for racing. There were a few motorcycle races on public roads and provincial parks in the '30s and '40s, but there don't seem to have been any automobile races until the emergence of the street circuits beginning with Trois Rivieres in 1967.
And you're right, Ray, another thread would be a good idea.
#16
m.tanney
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Posted 12 April 2003 - 14:56
It's funny how two people can look at the same information and come to different conclusions. Yes, Canadian road racing was rather primitive in the 1950s. It was an amateur activity in both the best and worst senses. But you would think that those very limitations would have spurred some enterprising young men to pursue the sport on a higher level by going abroad.Originally posted by Vitesse2
Mike, I think you've proved my point anyway.
If the limitations of the Canadian racing scene held them back in the 1950s, how do we explain the 1960s, when Canada had three excellent permanent circuits?
Cost and logistics would seem to be an even bigger problem for the Aussies, but there have always been Australian drivers in the U.K. Not just in the postwar period, but between the wars, and (I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong) even before WW1.And surely cost and the sheer logistical difficulties of operating 4000 miles from home must have played a major part in discouraging Canadians from coming to Europe?
#17
m.tanney
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Posted 12 April 2003 - 15:40
Moving back on topic...Thank you, David for reminding me about Broeker and Heimrath. And thanks to Tom for adding Mitchell, Allers and, to some extent, McLean to the list.
Jimmy Piget's record book shows a Jack Smith, who is identified as a Canadian, winning some British Formula Libre races at Silverstone and Snetterton driving a Brabham-Climax. He's also in Jimmy's necrology: killed at Snetterton on July 2, 1972 at the wheel of a BT23B-Climax. David Hodges' A-Z of Formula Racing Cars shows "Canadian Jack Smith" as the managing director of Huron Auto Race Developments c.1970-71.
Is there a prize for three consecutive posts? If so, does it involve a smack in the head?
Jimmy Piget's record book shows a Jack Smith, who is identified as a Canadian, winning some British Formula Libre races at Silverstone and Snetterton driving a Brabham-Climax. He's also in Jimmy's necrology: killed at Snetterton on July 2, 1972 at the wheel of a BT23B-Climax. David Hodges' A-Z of Formula Racing Cars shows "Canadian Jack Smith" as the managing director of Huron Auto Race Developments c.1970-71.
Is there a prize for three consecutive posts? If so, does it involve a smack in the head?
#18
ghinzani
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Posted 12 April 2003 - 20:09
I used to work with a guy called Thornton Mustard who raced FF nationally in the early 70s and he was Canadian. He went on to race URS FF2000, Class B F3 and was Maranello Ferrari Champion in 1994 IIRC.
#19
Vitesse2
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Posted 12 April 2003 - 20:45
Originally posted by ghinzani
I used to work with a guy called Thornton Mustard ...
Military man?
Mike: I was going to make the point that in the 50s both New Zealand and Australia there were active groups and individuals who were prepared to finance young drivers to race in Europe. The NZ Driver to Europe scheme sent us a World Champion.
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#20
TEJ
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Posted 12 April 2003 - 21:33
One more Canadian driver
A driver by the name of Rob Finch turned up at western Canadian circuits in the very early 1960s with front engined Gemini Formula Junior. Finch operated out of Winnipeg. I am quite sure he had recently returned from Europe, or the UK where he had been stationed with the Royal Canadian Air Force. Finch had brought the car back to Canada with him and I think he had raced over there (wherever there was). The reason I remember is because it was the first "real" racing car I had ever seen.
Tom from West Vancouver
A driver by the name of Rob Finch turned up at western Canadian circuits in the very early 1960s with front engined Gemini Formula Junior. Finch operated out of Winnipeg. I am quite sure he had recently returned from Europe, or the UK where he had been stationed with the Royal Canadian Air Force. Finch had brought the car back to Canada with him and I think he had raced over there (wherever there was). The reason I remember is because it was the first "real" racing car I had ever seen.
Tom from West Vancouver
#21
Ray Bell
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Posted 12 April 2003 - 21:44
Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....in the 50s both New Zealand and Australia there were active groups and individuals who were prepared to finance young drivers to race in Europe. The NZ Driver to Europe scheme sent us a World Champion.
Not so...
New Zealand led the way with this, and stayed ahead too...
McLaren and Hulme were among their successes.
The first such scheme in Australia was probably modeled on the NZ scheme, but it was started by the great Geoffrey Percival Frederick Sykes, to whom motor racing in Australia owes a very great debt.
He arranged funding to the extent of $2000 from Smith's Industries and the two winners (that I can think of, at least) were Brian Muir and Jim Sullivan. But the first announcements came in 1964... not in the fifties.
Later, starting in 1969, IIRC, the Formula Ford series had a 'Driver to Europe' prize attached to it, and this continued into the nineties if not to the current time. Ford Australia and airline TAA were the original backers.
Originally posted by m.tanney
Is there a prize for three consecutive posts? If so, does it involve a smack in the head?
I can only suggest you ask Keir...
#22
Gerr
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Posted 13 April 2003 - 00:54
Mike,
Back to the original topic.
Horst Kroll raced at Brands Hatch in 1969.
And a question. Why would a Canadian driver want to race in Britain in the 50's ?
Back to the original topic.
Horst Kroll raced at Brands Hatch in 1969.
And a question. Why would a Canadian driver want to race in Britain in the 50's ?
#23
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 13 April 2003 - 00:59
Thinking cap in place. Hmmmmmmm...
Back in the early to mid 70's, Canada had a premier Formula Ford series in the 'Shopper's World FF Championship'(1971) and the Bulova FF Championship from 1972 thru '76. Winners of the season long championship, run exclusively at Mosport, would be partially financed in a quasi 'Driver to Europe' programme to compete in British FF events for a full season. Dave Loring(USA)won the Shopper's title in 1971 but to the best of my knowledge, did not go to Britian. Luke de Sadeleer was a Bulova winner one year, IIFC, but did not go. Danny Burritt was a Bulova FF champ that did take up the offer and some moderate success. From what I heard later, he had a devil of a time adapting to the 'Torino' tires(sorry, tyres)used in Britian. These were essentially a street-spec variety of tire, I understand. Here in Canada, we ran racing tires, slicks from '72 onward. Dave White won the Bulova FF crown in 1976 but declined the offer to go to England for 1977. Apparently, he went to England to investigate the doability of the whole deal and came to the conclusion that he wouldn't have anywhere near enough financial backing, prize or no.
As for other Canadians to compete in England, Bertrand Fabi was on-line to do some F3 events but was killed in testing shunt in Britian. That was back in the mid-80's, IIRC.
Allen Berg did a reasonable job in F3 back in 1983(?). Did he not go up against the likes of Senna and Brundle with some creditable performances? Stand to be corrected here on the year and remembrance but he definitely did a season of F3 in that period. He went on to do some F1 work in the Oscella. Say no more.
A young fellow that I competed against in amatuer FF events in 1977 at Mosport and Shannonville went to Britain for a few events in '78. Name of Mike Walker, IIRC. (Not sure on the 'Mike', actually)
There's a couple more that come to mind but have to go...
Back in the early to mid 70's, Canada had a premier Formula Ford series in the 'Shopper's World FF Championship'(1971) and the Bulova FF Championship from 1972 thru '76. Winners of the season long championship, run exclusively at Mosport, would be partially financed in a quasi 'Driver to Europe' programme to compete in British FF events for a full season. Dave Loring(USA)won the Shopper's title in 1971 but to the best of my knowledge, did not go to Britian. Luke de Sadeleer was a Bulova winner one year, IIFC, but did not go. Danny Burritt was a Bulova FF champ that did take up the offer and some moderate success. From what I heard later, he had a devil of a time adapting to the 'Torino' tires(sorry, tyres)used in Britian. These were essentially a street-spec variety of tire, I understand. Here in Canada, we ran racing tires, slicks from '72 onward. Dave White won the Bulova FF crown in 1976 but declined the offer to go to England for 1977. Apparently, he went to England to investigate the doability of the whole deal and came to the conclusion that he wouldn't have anywhere near enough financial backing, prize or no.
As for other Canadians to compete in England, Bertrand Fabi was on-line to do some F3 events but was killed in testing shunt in Britian. That was back in the mid-80's, IIRC.
Allen Berg did a reasonable job in F3 back in 1983(?). Did he not go up against the likes of Senna and Brundle with some creditable performances? Stand to be corrected here on the year and remembrance but he definitely did a season of F3 in that period. He went on to do some F1 work in the Oscella. Say no more.
A young fellow that I competed against in amatuer FF events in 1977 at Mosport and Shannonville went to Britain for a few events in '78. Name of Mike Walker, IIRC. (Not sure on the 'Mike', actually)
There's a couple more that come to mind but have to go...
#24
m.tanney
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Posted 13 April 2003 - 17:49
Excellent post, Manfred. IIRC the "Driver to Europe" award was rather a paltry one, so much so that few of the "winners" could afford to accept it.Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
Back in the early to mid 70's, Canada had a premier Formula Ford series in the 'Shopper's World FF Championship'(1971) and the Bulova FF Championship from 1972 thru '76. Winners of the season long championship, run exclusively at Mosport, would be partially financed in a quasi 'Driver to Europe' programme to compete in British FF events for a full season.
Whatever the details of the Australian and NZ schemes, Vitesse rightly points out that our antipodean friends have always been better at supporting their young drivers efforts abroad. With the exeption of Player's driver development program in the mid '90s (which did not send drivers overseas), Canada has rather a poor track record when it comes to supporting its young racers. Billy Asaro would have been a real threat in British F3 this year, but had the sponsorship rug pulled out from under him. David Rutledge missed the whole of the 2002 season while "working on a deal", and doesn't seem to be racing this year, either.
I guess for the same reasons they have now: to experience the sport on a higher level, to measure themselves against intense competition, to accelerate their development in a hot-house atmosphere, to pursue the dream of Formula 1.Originally posted by Gerr
Why would a Canadian driver want to race in Britain in the 50's?
Perhaps someone with a set of Formula Junior record books could tell us if Rob Finch raced in Europe or the UK. Tom's reference to the RCAF reminded me of another Canadian who raced on the continent. Wayne Kelly started racing in 1959, while stationed in Germany with the RCAF. He was successful enough to attract Porsche factory support. The relationship with Porsch continued after Kelly's return to Canada. He became a constructor and built the Kelly-Porsche, a two litre sports racer which first appeared in 1964. Horst Kroll used it to win the Canadian championship in 1968. Kelly went on to build a line of successful FVees. He died in a horrendous FF accident at Mosport in 1971.Originally posted by TEJ
I am quite sure that he had recently returned from Europe or the UK where he had been stationed with the Royal Canadian Air Force.
As an aside, when Kroll was asked about winning the national championship, he said "all I got was a busted trophy and a handshake".
#25
Pete Stowe
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Posted 13 April 2003 - 18:50
I've just come across a reference in an old Autocar which reckons that Rhiando was an American, but had a Canadian licence.Originally posted by m.tanney
There's also the mysterious Spike Rhiando (was he really a Canadian?) who raced midgets in the '30s and 500cc F3s postwar.
#26
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 13 April 2003 - 19:20
...picking up where I left off...
Wayne Kelly: Could have guessed that he did some racing on the continent but wasn't sure. Do recall that he was based at either Trenton or Ottawa with the RCAF. His Kelly-Porsche was, and I stand to be flamed on this, a Lotus 23 with Porsche 4-cylinder power. First of its kind, AFAIK, pre-dating George Follmer's famous model. Wayne's car was a sickly tourquoise colour and I saw it action a number of times. It even shows up briefly in one of those retro sports car shows done on ESPN. It's the Watkins Glen USRRC event from either '64 or '65 with the Chaparrals featured. Wayne did build a number of FV's, one of which I drove for two seasons in the mid-70's. I was spectating from the pit straight gstand at the infamous Canadian GP at Mosport in 1971 when Wayne crashed fatally in corner one. Killed instantly. Shunt was on the second lap. Race stopped. Cop car joined the track about 15 minutes after race stopped - didn't clue in to the significance of it. Announcement came about an hour later. Bugger.
John Graham, 'King of Wankers', has certainly done some overseas racing with some Le Mans starts but don't think he actually raced in England. Lucky Brits.
A name I recall from long ago as racing out of Toronto with the Deutscher Auto Club gang is one Bert Kuhne. He ran some Porsches for a short while and I was amazed to hear later that he ended up in the UK testing for some F2 builder! Wouldn't bet the farm on that one, tho.
Wayne Kelly: Could have guessed that he did some racing on the continent but wasn't sure. Do recall that he was based at either Trenton or Ottawa with the RCAF. His Kelly-Porsche was, and I stand to be flamed on this, a Lotus 23 with Porsche 4-cylinder power. First of its kind, AFAIK, pre-dating George Follmer's famous model. Wayne's car was a sickly tourquoise colour and I saw it action a number of times. It even shows up briefly in one of those retro sports car shows done on ESPN. It's the Watkins Glen USRRC event from either '64 or '65 with the Chaparrals featured. Wayne did build a number of FV's, one of which I drove for two seasons in the mid-70's. I was spectating from the pit straight gstand at the infamous Canadian GP at Mosport in 1971 when Wayne crashed fatally in corner one. Killed instantly. Shunt was on the second lap. Race stopped. Cop car joined the track about 15 minutes after race stopped - didn't clue in to the significance of it. Announcement came about an hour later. Bugger.
John Graham, 'King of Wankers', has certainly done some overseas racing with some Le Mans starts but don't think he actually raced in England. Lucky Brits.
A name I recall from long ago as racing out of Toronto with the Deutscher Auto Club gang is one Bert Kuhne. He ran some Porsches for a short while and I was amazed to hear later that he ended up in the UK testing for some F2 builder! Wouldn't bet the farm on that one, tho.
#27
TEJ
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Posted 13 April 2003 - 19:37
I have heard the all of the stories about Alvin "Spike" Rhiando including references to his holding a Canadian racing licence. Who in Canada could or would have the "authority" to issue a Canadian competition licence before the Canadian Automobile Sport Clubs (CASC) being formed in 1951. Prior to that there was no group equivalent to what we today refer to an ASN, or was there? Perhaps the Canadian Automobile Association took on both roles (touring and competition) as did the AAA in the US or RAC did and still does in the UK.
Even after CASC was formed, for several years, Canadians who received FIA International Licences were actually issued RAC licences (I had one), this went on until CASC became an independant FIA member rather than being represented by the RAC.
So if Spike had a Canadian licence who issued it? It is possible that he had a ordinary road drivers licence issued by a Canadian province which may have been sufficient for some pre-war midget racing but surely the 1948 F3 race at the first post war British Grand Prix that Spike is reported to have won would have required more than a road drivers licence, or??
Even after CASC was formed, for several years, Canadians who received FIA International Licences were actually issued RAC licences (I had one), this went on until CASC became an independant FIA member rather than being represented by the RAC.
So if Spike had a Canadian licence who issued it? It is possible that he had a ordinary road drivers licence issued by a Canadian province which may have been sufficient for some pre-war midget racing but surely the 1948 F3 race at the first post war British Grand Prix that Spike is reported to have won would have required more than a road drivers licence, or??
#28
m.tanney
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Posted 13 April 2003 - 23:48
Re: Spike Rhiando. Excellent observation, Tom. Brian Pratt has a post a while back that showed Spike racing midgets in Britain in 1937. I don't know of any authority issuing competition licences in Canada in the '30s. The Canadian Automobile Association didn't. As far as I can see, its sole involvement with motorsport was as the host to visiting American organizations such as the AAA and the IMCA. Quite the enigma, Mr. Rhiando.
The Kelly-Porsche looked like a Lotus 23, but wasn't. I suspect that Kelly lifted the molds for its fiberglass bodywork from a Lotus 23. The wheel arches were bigger, to accomodate larger tires, but otherwise it was pure Lotus. The chassis had an adjustable rear suspension similar to a Lotus or Brabham BT8 and Lotus axles, but the rest of it was Kelly's own design.
The Kelly-Porsche looked like a Lotus 23, but wasn't. I suspect that Kelly lifted the molds for its fiberglass bodywork from a Lotus 23. The wheel arches were bigger, to accomodate larger tires, but otherwise it was pure Lotus. The chassis had an adjustable rear suspension similar to a Lotus or Brabham BT8 and Lotus axles, but the rest of it was Kelly's own design.
#29
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 14 April 2003 - 12:25
m.tanney:
Interesting notes on the Kelly-Porsche. It was, of course, instantly recognizable as a Lotus 23 but I had no idea that it was largely Wayne's own chassis with Lotus coachwork. Still, maybe that's not all that surprising because...
The Kelly FV that I drove for a couple of seasons was a 1968 model. I still have the nose badge kicking around here some place. The word on Wayne's early FV creations was that they were virtual carbon copies of an American builder and IIRC, there was some threat of legal action by that builder. Dont' think that anything ever came of it, though.
Interesting notes on the Kelly-Porsche. It was, of course, instantly recognizable as a Lotus 23 but I had no idea that it was largely Wayne's own chassis with Lotus coachwork. Still, maybe that's not all that surprising because...
The Kelly FV that I drove for a couple of seasons was a 1968 model. I still have the nose badge kicking around here some place. The word on Wayne's early FV creations was that they were virtual carbon copies of an American builder and IIRC, there was some threat of legal action by that builder. Dont' think that anything ever came of it, though.
#30
oldtransamdriver
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- 228 posts
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 04:36
I happened to be looking thru the Autosport Canada March 77 issue when I came across a 4 page interview with Rod Bremner, a Canadian from Toronto. I'm surprised that no-one remembered Rod racing in the UK in FF. I knew him in the late sixties when he was a successful Mini driver at Mosport.
Rod was the runnerup in the Mosport FF championship in 74 and was given the "Driver to Europe" sponsorship from CRDA when Luke DeSadeleer turned it down. If I remember it was worth about $10,000 Cdn.
His first season was 75 with 6 wins and several top 3's. He took a 3 yr. old Crossle to 4th in the British Air Ferries FF series and actually won the FF Festival, but was penalized 10 sec. for "jumping the start" which he denies. (sounds like a "homer" decision?) He had no crew, just himself and his wife.
In 76 he won the British DJM FF series, with 15 wins, including one on the continent, again in a Crossle that belonged to the factory and the engine was loaned from Minister - Rod paid the running costs.
I would have to say this is by far the most impressive racing performance by a Canadian in the UK. In those days the very best FF drivers came to the UK to compete.
Sadly, it all went nowhere for Rod. He wanted to do F3 but couldn't find the sponsorship and came back to Canada and managed only a few FA rides - again with little sponsorship. I remember also he raced a TR7 a few times.
If ever a guy deserved a chance I would have thought Rod did. I've lost track of him, but I'm out on the west coast so am not up to date with the Mosport scene.
Robert Barg
Rod was the runnerup in the Mosport FF championship in 74 and was given the "Driver to Europe" sponsorship from CRDA when Luke DeSadeleer turned it down. If I remember it was worth about $10,000 Cdn.
His first season was 75 with 6 wins and several top 3's. He took a 3 yr. old Crossle to 4th in the British Air Ferries FF series and actually won the FF Festival, but was penalized 10 sec. for "jumping the start" which he denies. (sounds like a "homer" decision?) He had no crew, just himself and his wife.
In 76 he won the British DJM FF series, with 15 wins, including one on the continent, again in a Crossle that belonged to the factory and the engine was loaned from Minister - Rod paid the running costs.
I would have to say this is by far the most impressive racing performance by a Canadian in the UK. In those days the very best FF drivers came to the UK to compete.
Sadly, it all went nowhere for Rod. He wanted to do F3 but couldn't find the sponsorship and came back to Canada and managed only a few FA rides - again with little sponsorship. I remember also he raced a TR7 a few times.
If ever a guy deserved a chance I would have thought Rod did. I've lost track of him, but I'm out on the west coast so am not up to date with the Mosport scene.
Robert Barg
Edited by oldtransamdriver, 04 September 2010 - 13:44.
#31
David McKinney
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 06:03
I remember he was on my "men to watch" list at the time
Don't recall the DJM Championship, but there were around a dozen FF1600 series running in the UK by then, so his success in that might not mean as much as it sounds
Don't recall the DJM Championship, but there were around a dozen FF1600 series running in the UK by then, so his success in that might not mean as much as it sounds
#32
Tim Murray
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 07:13
The DJM championship was the BARC series sponsored by DJM Records, which would, I think, have ranked fourth or fifth in importance, behind the RAC National, MCD Townsend Thoresen, European and possibly the Silverstone Brush Fusegear championships. The driver Bremner just beat to take the BARC (DJM) championship was Derek Warwick.
#33
RJE
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 08:39
Re the Wayne Kelly Porsche Special
I worked for Al Pease around the time Kelly built his car and as I recall Wayne 'borrowed' the Al's Honest Ed Lotus 23 and virtually copied it with the exception of some changes around the area of the engine bay where the Porsche unit was to be fitted. Through Al, Wayne got hold of a number of Lotus components, rear uprights, dampers, wheels etc. and of course the bodywork. Wayne was always proud of the fact that he had obtained a 'flat fan' Porsche engine through contacts he had at the factory and which he claimed at the time was the only such unit outside the works teams. I think Wayne had spent some time in Germany with the Air Force and had made some contacts while there.
As previously suggested for its time the car was painted a rather lurid blue/green. On the rear cover of Dave Friedman's book Pro Sports Car Racing in America 1958 - 1974 there is a picture of the car lined up at Mosport which as I recall gives a fair representation of its colour.
Although the car was quite good it was not really a match for a well sorted and driven Lotus 23 with a twin cam in or for the Elva Porsche and BMWs of the day and was nowhere near as successful as the 23 Porsche of George Follmer, although it must be admitted that Follmer was a much more highly rated driver than Kelly.
Does anybody know what happened to the car and engine?
I worked for Al Pease around the time Kelly built his car and as I recall Wayne 'borrowed' the Al's Honest Ed Lotus 23 and virtually copied it with the exception of some changes around the area of the engine bay where the Porsche unit was to be fitted. Through Al, Wayne got hold of a number of Lotus components, rear uprights, dampers, wheels etc. and of course the bodywork. Wayne was always proud of the fact that he had obtained a 'flat fan' Porsche engine through contacts he had at the factory and which he claimed at the time was the only such unit outside the works teams. I think Wayne had spent some time in Germany with the Air Force and had made some contacts while there.
As previously suggested for its time the car was painted a rather lurid blue/green. On the rear cover of Dave Friedman's book Pro Sports Car Racing in America 1958 - 1974 there is a picture of the car lined up at Mosport which as I recall gives a fair representation of its colour.
Although the car was quite good it was not really a match for a well sorted and driven Lotus 23 with a twin cam in or for the Elva Porsche and BMWs of the day and was nowhere near as successful as the 23 Porsche of George Follmer, although it must be admitted that Follmer was a much more highly rated driver than Kelly.
Does anybody know what happened to the car and engine?
#34
Bloggsworth
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 08:49
Are you all forgetting Paul Sleeman, certainly the most successful Canadian driver ever to have raced in the UK, winner of the Autosport Golden Helmet two years running. (I'm pretty sure he was born in Canada)
#35
Tim Murray
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 09:04
He was born in England, according to this post from his fiancée in the 'Formula Ford Festival memories' thread:
English origin! Lived, went to school and raced in Canada, but has spent far more time in the UK.
#36
Bloggsworth
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 11:57
He was born in England, according to this post from his fiancée in the 'Formula Ford Festival memories' thread:
I plead a senior moment...
#37
David Birchall
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 15:47
This is a timely return of this thread. Does anybody have any history for Ray Smith of Kamloops BC, Canada who raced a Brabham BT16 in F3 in "Europe"?
That is the car that Adriver, who started the "Healey Lane' thread is now the owner of and is trying to learn the history of.
That is the car that Adriver, who started the "Healey Lane' thread is now the owner of and is trying to learn the history of.
#38
oldtransamdriver
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 16:02
Are you all forgetting Paul Sleeman, certainly the most successful Canadian driver ever to have raced in the UK, winner of the Autosport Golden Helmet two years running. (I'm pretty sure he was born in Canada)
If Paul Sleeman raced in Canada, anyone know what years and which series? The name is not familiar to me.
Robert Barg
#39
Tim Murray
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 16:31
Not at all, not at all. I was just pleased that my aged memory managed to remember Ann1e's post from back in February.I plead a senior moment...
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#40
Tim Murray
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Posted 04 September 2010 - 16:57
Paul's racing CV (in the UK) can be found here:If Paul Sleeman raced in Canada, anyone know what years and which series? The name is not familiar to me.
Robert Barg
http://www.elva.com/elva-driver.html
He says he started racing in October 1972, but his UK results don't start until 1976. I should therefore guess that he was racing in Canada from 1972 to 1975.
#41
oldtransamdriver
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Posted 06 September 2010 - 19:22
The DJM championship was the BARC series sponsored by DJM Records, which would, I think, have ranked fourth or fifth in importance, behind the RAC National, MCD Townsend Thoresen, European and possibly the Silverstone Brush Fusegear championships. The driver Bremner just beat to take the BARC (DJM) championship was Derek Warwick.
I find it amazing that there were all these FF series. I would like to find some Autosport or Motoring News reports of those different series races to try and compare the drivers and series. Any of those results posted somewhere?
If the DJM series was only ranked 4th or 5th, what was Derek Warwick doing in it? I understand lots of variables came into play - schedule, budget, start money, prize money, etc.
Robert Barg
Edited by oldtransamdriver, 06 September 2010 - 19:23.
#42
Tim Murray
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Posted 06 September 2010 - 19:33
The top FF drivers would probably contest at least two of these championships in any one year. Derek Warwick apparently spread himself a bit thin by contesting nearly all the major championships, which could explain why he didn't win any of them.
#43
Rupertlt1
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Posted 18 November 2014 - 22:33
Murray Shill from Toronto raced a Lotus Eleven in England in 1959:
http://forums.autosp...n/#entry6576097
Does anybody know anything further?
RGDS RLT
#44
D28
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Posted 19 November 2014 - 01:05
A couple more Canadians in Europe:-
Peter Broeker converted his Stebro to F2 spec and raced at Pau, Reims, Vienna, Berlin and Rome in 1964 or 65.
Ludwig Heimrath competed at Pau, but I don't know which year.
Also of the 11 Canadian championship GP drivers, 5 were "borrowed" from abroad.
Cannon and Pease were born in England, Ryan and Broeker in the USA and Eppie Wietzes is from the Netherlands!
Oft time Canadian champion Ludwig Heimrath also emigrated to Canada from Germany. His Pau F1 debut was in 1962, thus he became the 2nd Canadian F1 driver, after Peter Ryan (1961)
The Green Acres airport circuit near Goderich On was discussed in the obit feature on Al Pease. He as well as Heimrath, Ryan, Sadler and all the quick runners raced here around 1960.
I don't believe anyone has mentioned George Eaton, who did a season with BRM F1 in 1970.
Edited by D28, 19 November 2014 - 02:21.
#45
Rupertlt1
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Posted 19 November 2014 - 02:16
Green Acres ran 1958-1962:
http://www.racingspo...reen Acres.html
The circuit was situated about ten miles north of Goderich, near Port Albert, off Highway 21.
Little remains today.
RGDS RLT
#46
raceannouncer2003
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Posted 19 November 2014 - 07:24
Murray Shill from Toronto raced a Lotus Eleven in England in 1959:
http://forums.autosp...n/#entry6576097
Does anybody know anything further?
RGDS RLT
Found one result from 1961:
http://www.racingspo...03-11-5750.html
And apparently he was back in Canada (Toronto) by 1965, entered in the Shell 4000 Rally, car #105:
http://shell-4000-ra.../1965_guide.pdf
Vince H.
Edited by raceannouncer2003, 19 November 2014 - 07:35.
#47
Rupertlt1
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Posted 19 November 2014 - 12:28
Murray Shill at B.A.R.C. 44th Members' Meeting at Goodwood 1961:
"Shill threw away the first 5-lap Handicap when he spun his Lotus at Woodcote on the last lap, after leading all the way. Peter Boshier-Jones went through to win for Lola, 2.8 sec. ahead of Keens' similar Lola-Climax, Shill restarting to take third place, ahead of Beckwith's Lotus Eleven, which had received new bearing shells shortly before the start."
http://www.motorspor...odwood-re-opens
The registration number of Shill's Lotus-Eleven Climax believed to be 5 PPH. Does anybody know the history of this car?
P.S. Shill also entered event #3 at Crystal Palace, 2 September 1961:
#45 M.R. Shill Lotus-Climax, Yellow (not BRG as previously), 4 Cylinder, 1098 c.c.
RGDS RLT
Edited by Rupertlt1, 19 November 2014 - 13:56.
#48
group7
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Posted 19 November 2014 - 22:16
RLT, you might try here http://www.lotuseleven.org they may be able to offer something
Mike..group7 in Canada
#49
La Sarthe
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Posted 20 November 2014 - 18:36
I find it amazing that there were all these FF series. I would like to find some Autosport or Motoring News reports of those different series races to try and compare the drivers and series. Any of those results posted somewhere?
If the DJM series was only ranked 4th or 5th, what was Derek Warwick doing in it? I understand lots of variables came into play - schedule, budget, start money, prize money, etc.
Robert Barg
Because it was the BARC series it would have its fair share of races at Thruxton, Warwick's home track, so I guess it was mainly for convenience and lower travel costs.
#50
Rupertlt1
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Posted 23 February 2015 - 22:07
Two Canadian drivers - Alan Finney and Alex James - from Victoria, British Columbia, raced in England in 1959.
They campaigned an MGA Twin-Cam in club events for Team Beaver, including entry in the Autosport Championship.
Reference: Canada Track & Traffic, September 1960, Pages 17, 38.
(This article makes no mention of Murray Shill from Toronto, and his Lotus Eleven, an exact contemporary.)
See #2: https://revslib.stan...log/pt276xt8117
Also #3: https://revslib.stan...log/yy074fp3601
Does anybody have entry list for Silverstone MGCC, 16 May 1959.
Puzzling why same car has two different race numbers?
RGDS RLT
Edited by Rupertlt1, 24 February 2015 - 10:12.
