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Marrakech F3 1968


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#1 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 03 June 2003 - 20:51

Anyone who has any information about a F3 race held in Marrakech, Morocco, April 14 1968?
The winner was Daniel Gache, but thats about all I have!

Stefan

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#2 jarama

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Posted 04 June 2003 - 21:04

Stefan,

1st, Daniel Gache, Brabham, 59'35"3 @ 95.044 kmh
2nd, Obrist, Brabham
3rd, Fête, Cooper

According to "Sport-Auto", Gache would be french, while the rest were Moroccan drivers.

Regards,

Carles.

#3 Gert

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 10:22

Can't help you with the results, but I think that Daniel Gache is the father of Philippe.
(seen in Formula 3000 some years ago, and at Le Mans)

#4 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 16:33

This is a very curious event and I'm not sure it is what we think it is.

 

Daniel Gache did have a F3 Brabham in French hillclimbs early in 1968 but then, according to a later interview, had some customs issues and had to sell the car.  He doesn't make many appearances that season.  Obrist with a Brabham would be Swiss driver Hans Obrist with his 1-litre ex-Formula 2 Brabham BT16, not a F3 car at all.  The F1 Register report that "Bueb" was fourth in another Brabham and I think that would be the ageing Brabham BT9 of fellow Swiss Arthur Bueb who ran it with either 1100cc or 1000cc engines in very minor events in 1967 and 1968.  

 

I won't attempt a guess at Fete or Lassus.

 

In the ten years since the original enquiry, has anyone else unearthed information on this race?



#5 The Mountaineer

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 16:20

Hello Stefan

 

I can confirm the Brabham BT16 SCA for Hans Obrist, and R. Lassus or Lassis was a Moroccan driver.

 

I don't know anything more about that 1968 event, but I have the entry list for a race in Casablanca (Circuit de la Corniche) on =ctober 22th, very probably in 1967, with international (Swiss and French) participation. Interested in that?

 

There seemed to be a Moroccan "Formule Nationale" with enginees up to 1000 or 1100cc without further limitation, so the F2 Brabham BT16 of Hans Obrist fits.



#6 Allen Brown

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 19:50

Yes please! I would be very interested to see that entry list.

#7 Frank Verplanken

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 21:55

R. Lassus/Lassis is Robert Lassus, mentionned as "Champion du Maroc 1967" in this 2009 interview. Famous for his "Racer des Sables" bitza : see http://www.bmway.org...s_histoire.html and http://www.bmway.org...e/rs_mecan.html


Edited by Frank Verplanken, 22 December 2013 - 21:55.


#8 The Mountaineer

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 09:21

Entry List Circuit de la Corniche, Casablanca, Oct. 22nd, 1967

 

1    J. Berenger, Casablanca, Renault 1000

2    Robert Lassus, Marrakech, Cooper-BMC F3

3    Arthur Bueb, CH, Brabham F.Libre

4    Fritz Heini, CH, Cooper-Honda 800

5    Hans Obrist, CH, Lotus 20 F3

6    Hans Uhlmann, CH, Lotus 20 F.Libre

7    Eduard Wahl, CH, Lotus 27 F3

8    Paul Fellay, CH, Brabham F3

9    Bruno Wernli, CH, Saab 850 (a KitCar from Quantum)

10  Fritz Riesen, CH, Brabham F3

11  H. Gelibert, Rabat, Renault F. Nationale

12  Claude Ballot-Lena, F, Lotus F3

 

I don't know anything about the race, but from the Swiss contingent, Heini, Obrist and Riesen didn't make it to Casablanca, so DNA for them. 



#9 Allen Brown

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 13:00

Thanks very much for that. 

 

Arthur Bueb (Hinterkappelen) had an old 1964 BT9 and usually ran a 1100cc engine, presumably left over from Formula Junior, so I'm not surprised to see it as a libre car here.  As BT9s were relatively rare in Switzerland, I would speculate that this was the ex-Manfred Mohr/Willy Franz car, the chassis number of which is unknown.

 

Fritz Heini raced a Brabham-Honda, not a Cooper-Honda, in Swiss events so I wonder if this is a typo.  His car was the ex-Silvio Moser BT6, chassis FJ-17-63, equipped with a Honda 800 engine. 

 

The F3 Brabham of Paul Fellay (Sierre) is an interesting piece of motor racing history.  Assuming Fellay only had the one Brabham, he had started racing it in August 1966, the final season of the 1000cc Formula 2, when it was described as a F2 Brabham.  So maybe a one-year-old BT16 but more likely a two-year-old BT10 as we know where nearly all the BT16s were in August 1966.  He continued in the 1100cc class in 1967 but towards the end of the year, the car moved into the F3 class and started to be described as a BT15.  This is the car he brought to Casablanca.  In 1968, he moved back into the 1100cc class which implies he had either refitted the old F2 engine or he was simply running the F3 engine without the restrictor.  At the end of 1969, this car was bought by Peter Sauber and used as the basis of his first Sauber C1 sports car, a car which was powered by a 1000cc Cosworth SCA ex-F2 engine.  My suspicion is that this car was actually a 1964 BT10 with a Cosworth SCA all along and my hunch is that it was the ex-Jo Schlesser car.  But this is speculation piled upon speculation and will probably turn out to be wrong :)

 

Coincidentally, Zürich's Bruno Wernli would later race a Brabham BT15, possibly ex-Gaggio, which would be used as the basis of the sister C1, powered by its original Cosworth MAE.

 

The car of Fritz Riesen (Gasel) was less exciting, a 1966 Brabham BT15.  Eduard Wahl's regular Lotus 27 remains similarly unidentified.  I have no idea what Claude Ballot-Lena had entered as he'd been using a Brabham BT18 in F3 that year.



#10 The Mountaineer

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 17:59

Hello Allen

I've read your interesting theories about the Swiss cars entered at Marrakech, but some of them need further explications.

 

Let's start with the Cooper-Honda of Fritz Heini. That car existed, but it was first called the FH-Fiat (600), then FH-Honda with 600cc again, and in 1967, that car did at least one race with the 800cc engine which was for 1968 transplanted into Brabham BT 6 FJ-17-63.

 

The origins of Fellay's car aren't quite clear to me, but it certainly wasn't a BT16 and it never had an SCA mounted. From Fellay onwards, its history is clear. Fellay sold it MAE-powered to Wernli, and engine, gearbox, suspensions and wheels became in 1970 parts of Sauber C1-002, Wernli's car. Bruno Wernli was the man who built the two Sauber C1 together with the boss himself. For C1-001, Peter Sauber's car, they bought a second Brabham chassis i don't know where, and this became the SCA-engined car.

 

I don't have any additional information about the other cars mentioned 



#11 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 20:50

I have seen many different stories about the two Brabhams that were used as the basis of the two Sauber C1s and I would love to get to the bottom of that.  Even Sauber's only stories are not consistent from one decade to the next. Pierre-Yves Gaggio's name often comes up, as does Fellay's.  One of the Brabhams would surely have been Wernli's own 1969 F3 car but the origins of the other remain a puzzle to me.

 

Why are you so sure Fellay's car wasn't a BT16 and did not have a SCA?  Also, could you tell me how you determined that it went from Fellay to Wernli - that would be a very useful piece of the jigsaw.



#12 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 20:59

I have just realised who I'm talking to.  Hello Urs!  Now I realise why "The Mountaineer" is so well informed :)

 

Did I bring you up to speed with my discoveries on the Habegger Brabhams?  I found an exceedingly useful photograph...



#13 ChrisM

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 21:03

I don't know if Daniel Gache is still around, he was a 'garagiste' from Avignon, but his son Philippe was last heard of living in Cannes, and had a sportscar team SMG based at Ledenon. 

If anyone can find a contact, he might know some of his dad's history.



#14 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 09:17

Probably already known, but there's a vast topic about racing in Morocco over at Forum Auto (in French):

 

 

http://www.forum-aut...sujet378082.htm

 

 

It's full of interesting stuff (also on Marrakech, although nothing specifically about 1968 as far as I can see), but beware as it's one big hodge-podge...



#15 The Mountaineer

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 13:54

Hello Allen

 

Yes, I've seen that picture of the Habegger Brabham. It helped a lot.

 

And I am sure about the Fellay-Wernli deal because I have talked to both of them. They tell an identical story.

 

The SCA engine in Peter Sauber's C1 most probably was the spare engine of Walter Flückiger of Ginetta G12 fame.

 

What follows now is pure speculation: I don't really believe in the Gaggio theory. I rather think someone confounded two Italian names starting with G: Gaggio and Giovanoli. Edi Giovanoli was an underfinanced Formula V racer who worked for a short time with Jürg Dubler. He was well-known in the Zurich racing community and always eager to make some quick money to finance his own racing. And from 1970 onwards, he disposed of at least two Brabham chassis he used to build his own Rebell Formula V cars. So I think he got one Brabham from Dubler, sold it to Sauber and took back chassis and bodywork from this one and also from Wernli's car. But as I said, it's just speculation. Wernli doesn't know anything about that, Giovanoli has died some years ago and Jürg Dubler doesn't remember. 



#16 ensign14

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 14:20

This is a sobering thread to those who complain about contemporary Autosport.  There seems to have been a heck of a lot of racing going on back in the glory days that didn't seem to make the Hallowed Pages - even in the off-season...



#17 Allen Brown

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 15:06

So they both confirmed that the Fellay car went from Fellay to Wernli and became a Sauber?  That's very useful.  Was Fellay able to tell you where he got the Brabham from?  Did he race the same car from 1966 to 1968?  If so, I'd be curious why it was called a F2 car and why he ran it in the 1100cc class.  Did you discuss that with him?



#18 The Mountaineer

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 17:35

There is a rather wild, wonderful story about that car and its early years. There is even some reason to call it F2, but not in connection with an SCA engine. But whatever angle I am looking from, there is a problem coming up. Give me enough time, I'll try to sort it out. 



#19 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 18:22

I don't know if Daniel Gache is still around, he was a 'garagiste' from Avignon, but his son Philippe was last heard of living in Cannes, and had a sportscar team SMG based at Ledenon. 

If anyone can find a contact, he might know some of his dad's history.

 

It seems the same Philippe Gache whose SMG team will start Dakar Rally on Saturday, with Carlos Sainz driving one of his buggies. The start is at Rosario, 300 km from here, n Buenos Aires, but unfortunately I will not be there.