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Pau winners?


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#1 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 01:24

I knew this street race had been around for a while, but was surprised to see in one of the press releases Nuvolari and Fangio listed in the wins column. Can someone give me Pau History 101 and as complete a list of winners as is reasonable?

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#2 Don Capps

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 02:15

Ross, to give you some idea as to how old Pau is, I watched Alberto Ascari race a Lancia D.50 there in 1955. Pau has been around since about 1933 in its present form, an earlier circuit also being laid out in the outskirts for the 1930 GP de l'ACF. It is set in the Parc Beaumont and quite a place. The last GP/F1 event there was 1963.

More to follow....

#3 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 02:37

2003 Pole sitter Ryan Briscoe Dallara-Opel 1'12''528
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F3000 in 1993/4(?) Gil De Ferran
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Imo Pau was the best in F3000. Nice big powerful cars. F3s drive too much like vacuum cleaners.

#4 Leif Snellman

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 06:28


1933 Lehoux	   Bugatti 

1935 Nuvolari	 Alfa Romeo

1936 Étancelin	Maserati 

1937 Wimille	  Bugatti

1938 Dreyfus	  Delahaye

1939 Lang		 Mercedes-Benz 

1947 Pagani	   Maserati   

1948 Pagani	   Maserati  

1949 Fangio	   Maserati   

1950 Fangio	   Maserati   

1951 Villoresi	Ferrari 

1952 Ascari	   Ferrari

1953 Ascari	   Ferrari

1954 Behra		Gordini

1955 Behra		Maserati  

1957 Behra		Maserati 

1958 Trintignant  Cooper

1959 Trintignant  Cooper

1960 Brabham	  Cooper

1961 Clark		Lotus

1962 Trintignant  Lotus

1963 Clark		Lotus

1964 Clark		Lotus 

1965 Clark		Lotus 

1966 Brabham	  Brabham

1967 Rindt		Brabham 

1968 Stewart	  Matra

1969 Rindt		Lotus

1970 Rindt		Lotus

1971 Wisell	   Lotus

1972 Gethin	   Chevron

1973 Cevert	   Elf

1974 Depailler	March

1975 Laffite	  Martini

1976 Arnoux	   Martini

1977 Arnoux	   Martini

1978 Giacomelli   March

1979 Cheever	  Osella

1980 Dallest	  AGS

1981 Lees		 Ralt

1982 Checotto	 March

1983 Gartner	  Spirit

1984 Thackwell	Ralt

1985 Danner	   March

1986 Thackwell	Ralt

1987 Dalmas	   March

1988 Moreno	   Reynard

1989 Alesi		Reynard

1990 van de Poele Reynard

1991 Gounon	   Ralt 

1992 Naspetti	 Reynard

1993 Lamy		 Reynard

1994 de Ferran	Reynard
and so on...

#5 esorniloc

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 09:04

Pau Grand Prix Winners

No Year Formula Driver Car Engine
1 1901 FL Maurice Farman Panhard 24CV Panhard
2 1933 GP Marcel Lehoux Bugatti T51 Bugatti
3 1935 GP Tazio Nuvolari Alfa Romeo Tipo-B Alfa Romeo
4 1936 GP Philippe Étancelin Maserati V8RI Maserati
5 1937 SC Jean-Pierre Wimille Bugatti T59S Bugatti
6 1938 GP René Dreyfus Delahaye 145 Delahaye
7 1939 GP Hermann Lang Mercedes-Benz W163 Mercedes-Benz
8 1947 F1 Nello Pagani Maserati 4CL Maserati
9 1948 F1 Nello Pagani Maserati 4CL Maserati
10 1949 F1 Juan Manuel Fangio Maserati 4CLT/48 Maserati
11 1950 F1 Juan Manuel Fangio Maserati 4CLT/48 Maserati
12 1951 F1 Luigi Villoresi Ferrari 375 Ferrari
13 1952 F2 Alberto Ascari Ferrari 500 Ferrari
14 1953 F2 Alberto Ascari Ferrari 500 Ferrari
15 1954 F1 Jean Behra Gordini 16 Gordini
16 1955 F1 Jean Behra Maserati 250F Maserati
17 1957 F1 Jean Behra Maserati 250F Maserati
18 1958 F2 Maurice Trintignant Cooper T43 Coventry Climax
19 1959 F2 Maurice Trintignant Cooper T51 Coventry Climax
20 1960 F2 Jack Brabham Cooper T45 Coventry Climax
21 1961 F1 Jim Clark Lotus 18 Coventry Climax
22 1962 F1 Maurice Trintignant Lotus 18/21 Coventry Climax
23 1963 F1 Jim Clark Lotus 25 Coventry Climax
24 1964 F2 Jim Clark Lotus 32 Ford
25 1965 F2 Jim Clark Lotus 35 Ford
26 1966 F2 Jack Brabham Brabham BT18 Honda
27 1967 F2 Jochen Rindt Brabham BT23 Ford
28 1968 F2 Jackie Stewart Matra MS7 Ford
29 1969 F2 Jochen Rindt Lotus 59B Ford
30 1970 F2 Jochen Rindt Lotus 69 Ford
31 1971 F2 Reine Wisell Lotus 69 Ford
32 1972 F2 E Peter Gethin Chevron B20 Ford
33 1973 F2 E François Cevert Elf 2/A367 Ford
34 1974 F2 E Patrick Depailler March 742 BMW
35 1975 F2 E Jacques Laffite Martini MK16 BMW
36 1976 F2 E René Arnoux Martini MK19 Renault
37 1977 F2 E René Arnoux Martini MK22 Renault
38 1978 F2 E Bruno Giacomelli March 782 BMW
39 1979 F2 E Eddie Cheever Osella FA2/79 BMW
40 1980 F2 E Richard Dallest AGS JH17 BMW
41 1981 F2 E Geoff Lees Ralt RH6/81 Honda
42 1982 F2 E Johnny Cecotto March 822 BMW
43 1983 F2 E Jo Gartner Spirit 201 BMW
44 1984 F2 E Mike Thackwell Ralt RH6/84 Honda
45 1985 F3000 Int Christian Danner March 85B Cosworth
46 1986 F3000 Int Mike Thackwell Ralt RT20 Honda
47 1987 F3000 Int Yannick Dalmas March 87B Cosworth
48 1988 F3000 Int Roberto Moreno Reynard 88D Cosworth
49 1989 F3000 Int Jean Alesi Reynard 89D Mugen-Honda
50 1990 F3000 Int Eric van de Poele Reynard 90D Cosworth
51 1991 F3000 Int Jean-Marc Gounon Ralt RT23 Cosworth
52 1992 F3000 Int Emanuele Naspetti Reynard 92D Cosworth
53 1993 F3000 Int Pedro Lamy Reynard 92D Cosworth
54 1994 F3000 Int Gil de Ferran Reynard 94D Judd
55 1995 F3000 Int Vincenzo Sospiri Reynard 95D Cosworth
56 1996 F3000 Int Jörg Müller Lola T96/50 Zytek Judd
57 1997 F3000 Int Juan Pablo Montoya Lola T96/50 Zytek Judd
58 1998 F3000 Int Juan Pablo Montoya Lola T96/50 Zytek Judd
59 1999 F3 Benoit Treluyer Dallara F399 Renault
60 2000 F3 Jonathan Cochet Dallara F399 Renault
61 2001 F3 Anthony Davidson Dallara F301 Mugen-Honda
62 2002 F3 Renaud Derlot Dallara F302 Renault

FL = Formula Libre
GP = Grand Prix
SC = Sports Car
F1 = Formula 1
F2 = Formula 2
F2 E = European Formula 2
F3000 Int = International Fomula 3000
F3 = Formula 3

#6 Alan Lewis

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 09:41

I believe the 1901 race was the first in motorsport history to use the title "Grand Prix".

Leif and Colin are both right in their winner's lists! I've seen plenty of references to a 1933 start and plenty that include the 1901 race.

Whether 1901 counts towards the series or not depends upon whether you accept the 1895-1903 Paris races as Grands Prix de l'ACF and so forth (incidentally, the 1930 GP de l'ACF was held at Pau, but I've never seen it listed in the Pau GP records as well - rightly so).

APL

Ah...Don mentioned 1930 earlier. Read the postings, Lewis.


#7 ensign14

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 15:37

The 1938 was perhaps the most extraordinary result...Dreyfus in a glorified sports car beating Caracciola's Merc (handed over to Lang) on strategy (no refuelling stop). Although Dreyfus was as fast during practice.

#8 esorniloc

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 20:50

There are 2 races in the Euro F3 series at Pau this year, so there are 2 races in this years Pau GP. I don't know if they will go down as race numbers 63 and 64 or 2* 63.

Anyone any thoughts on this?

Just to update the list, Ryan Briscoe (Dallara F303-Opel) won todays race, the other race is tomorrow.

#9 Rob29

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 07:20

Seems we have a problem here. The banner on the podium said '63eme Grand Prix de Pau' Seems the title belongs to the meeting rather than any one (or two) race(s) Maybe the winner of the Supertourisime race has just as much right to claim he won the PauGP?

#10 esorniloc

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 09:17

Just to make it even more complicated there are 2 Supertourisime races (one yesterday won by Collard and another today).

There is also
GT race
French Formula Renault race
Formule Campus race (what ever that is??????)
Coupe 206CC race

Surely the F3 race though is the proper GP de Pau?

#11 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 10:24

Originally posted by esorniloc

Formule Campus race (what ever that is??????)


Bottom rung of the ladder in French single-seaters. :)

#12 BRG

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 11:11

Originally posted by ensign14
The 1938 was perhaps the most extraordinary result...

Maybe, although Montoya lapping the entire F3000 field in 1998 (?) must come close!

#13 D-Type

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 11:13

To be pedantic
There was never a Mercedes Benz W163 car. The 163 designation referred to the revised 1939 engine, I think designated M163.
So in the 1939 GP Hermann Lang would have been driving a Mercedes-Benz W154. The engine could have been a Mercedes-Benz M154 or M163, most probably the latter.
Can one of the more knowledgable TNF-ers confirm the engine type?

#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 11:45

Not pedantic at all. We've discussed this one before (several times!) The M163 was the two-stage supercharged motor, but I believe that they were still using the M154 at Pau. Whatever, W163 is not, AFAIK, an official Mercedes Benz designation.

I've also seen the 1939 engine referred to as an M163K (Kompressor? - seems rather redundant, as it didn't run unsupercharged ...)

#15 Leif Snellman

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 12:50

A few comments and corrections:

During the 1939 season the team used ten of the old M154 engines, known as the "H" series, and just four of the new M163 engines, known as the "K" series. Note that there was two stage variants of both the M154 and the M163, so you CANNOT say that M154 = 1 stage supercharger and M163 = two stage!
What engine configurations was used when and where is a bit tricky but at least at Pau they used M154, one stage supercharger with the new body.

#16 esorniloc

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 13:29

Just to update my list more:

2nd race was won by Fabio Carbone (Dallara F302 - Renault).

I guess Carbone and Briscoe will go down as co-winners of the 63rd Grand Prix de Pau!!!!!!!!!!!

#17 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 14:30

Originally posted by esorniloc
Just to make it even more complicated there are 2 Supertourisime races (one yesterday won by Collard and another today).

There is also
GT race
French Formula Renault race
Formule Campus race (what ever that is??????)
Coupe 206CC race

Surely the F3 race though is the proper GP de Pau?


Formula Campus is the series with Nicolas Prost in it ;)

#18 D-Type

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 22:15

I'd forgotten about Dreyfus in 1938. In its own way as much of an achievement as Nuvolari's more famous win.
Apart from that, Nuvolari at the 'Ring in 1935 and Chiron at Montlhery in 1934 were there any other occasions when the Silver Arrows were defeated?

#19 Marcor

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 23:27

No, also
AVUS 34: 1- Moll (Alfa Romeo), 2- Varzi (Alfa Romeo), 3- Momberger (Auto Union)
Barcelona 36: 1- Nuvolari (Alfa Romeo), 2- Caracciola (Mercedes)
Budapest 36: 1- Nuvolari (Alfa Romeo), 2- Rosemeyer (Auto-Union)
Milano 36: 1- Nuvolari (Alfa Romeo), 2- Varzi (Auto Union)
Coppa Ciano: 1- Pintacuda / Nuvolari (Alfa Romeo), 2- Brivio (Alfa Romeo), 3- Dreyfus (Alfa Romeo), 4- Rosemeyer / Stuck (Auto Union)
South-Africa 37 (Handicap race), 5- Rosemeyer (Auto Union), but fastest of all.
Rio de Janeiro 37: 1- Pintacuda (Alfa Romeo), 2- Stuck (Auto Union)
Milano 37: 1- Nuvolari (Alfa Romeo), 2- Farina (Alfa Romeo), 3- Ruesch (Alfa Romeo), 4- Hasse (Auto Union).

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#20 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 23:40

Posted Image :) :up:

#21 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 19:14

Pau is talking to Pook about CART. That would be an awesome but ridiculously crazy race. Pau also is trying to get DTM and/or EuroSport SuperRace Weekends (FIA GTs, Super Renaults, etc)

#22 Egon Thurner

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 19:58

Originally posted by Alan Lewis
I believe the 1901 race was the first in motorsport history to use the title "Grand Prix".

Whether 1901 counts towards the series or not depends upon whether you accept the 1895-1903 Paris races as Grands Prix de l'ACF and so forth (incidentally, the 1930 GP de l'ACF was held at Pau, but I've never seen it listed in the Pau GP records as well - rightly so).


Looking up some facts about the Pau track I stumbled over this. Now I really want to know it:

Was the race in 1901 really called 'Grand Prix de Pau' - contemporary ? :eek:

#23 robert dick

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 08:12

“La France Automobile”, February 1901 : Le Circuit du Sud-Ouest
(circuit has to be understand in the French sense).

#24 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 10:20

Kent Karslake in Racing Voiturettes (Publ. 1950) has "Circuit de Sud-Ouest".
All others of my secondary sources refer to it as "Grand Prix de Pau"
as was quoted by Gerald Rose in A Record of MOTOR RACING (Publ. 1909),
same as in the 1904 edition of Der Motorwagen, as quoted in Kirchbergs book on p95.
No real help, I know, still lacking primary sources that early. :(
But Roland King-Farlow in GRAND PRIX RACING Facts & Figures has "South West Circuit".

#25 robert dick

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 08:00

La France Automobile, February 1900 :
under the title “La semaine de Pau” : “... la grande course, le circuit du sud-ouest, comportait l’itinéraire suivant : Pau, Tarbes, Riscle, Aire, Souprosse, Saint-Sever, Dax, Magendie, Saint-Étienne de Bayonne, Peyrehorade, Orthez et Pau. Au total 335 kilomètres...

La France Automobile, March 1901 (results) :

Course des touristes, Pau-Peyrehorade-Pau, 140 km :
Prix de la Presse – 1) Barbereau (De Dietrich) ;
Prix du Commerce Palois – 1) H. Farman (Darracq) ;
Prix des Cercles – 1) Rudeaux (Darracq) ;
Prix de l’Automobile Club Béarnais – 1) Bergeon (De Dietrich) ;
Prix de l’Automobile Club de France – 1) (1 place) Demeester (Gladiator) – 1) (2 places) Edmond (Darracq) ;
Prix ud Palmarium – 1) Cormier (De Dion).

Circuit du Sud-Ouest :
Grand Prix de Pau – 1) M. Farman (Panhard), 2) Girardot (Panhard) ;
Grand Prix du Palais d’Hiver – 1ère catégorie de 400 à 650 kg, 2 places – 1) H. Farman (Darracq), 2) Edmond (Darracq) / 2ème catégorie jusqu`à 400 kg, 1 place – 1) L. Renault (Renault) ;
Prix du Béarn – 1) Osmont (tri De Dion).

= = = =

Pierre Souvestre in L’Histoire de l’Automobile/Paris 1907 : “... dans le Circuit du Sud-Ouest, à l’occasion du meeting de Pau... ”
= = = =

Conclusion :
The event as a whole was called Semaine de Pau or Meeting de Pau. The meeting was divided in a race 1) for tourists, 2) for cyclists and 3) for pure racing cars. The pure race (3) was called Circuit du Sud-Ouest. The winner of the category for heavy cars (still unlimited in 1901) was the winner of the Grand Prix de Pau.
“Grand Prix” in this sense is rather different from GRAND PRIX as used in Grand Prix de l'ACF.

#26 Egon Thurner

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 08:10

Thanks Robert, your knowledge (and your access to french primary sources about the earliest motorracing) is fantastic!

So, if I understand correct, to name the race as '1. Grand Prix de Pau' is simply wrong. Now I wonder, if it would be correct to name the 1930 race this way and it was the 24. GP de l'ACF and the 1. GP de Pau at the same time ?

Or the 'count up' began in the year 1933?
:confused:

#27 Egon Thurner

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 09:03

Talking about Pau ....

From Leif's Site : Pau was back in the race calendar in 1933, now with a Monaco inspired track in the city center. The track is one of the most curious and twisty in the GP history and has remained more or less unchanged into the 90s .

From Darren's Site : ... but in 1933, during February snow, a race was held inside the city. Except for the second World War and 1956, racing has been held here uninterrupted, and without any track alterations .

Digging ab bit and collecting data about the Pau race, I found some suspect discrepancies about raclength and (consecutiv) tracklength in the postwar-periode:


Year  Laps   tl	Sheld.   Mo.

-------------------------------

1947   110  1,721  189,27   190

1948   110  1,721  189,26   187

1949   110  1,761  193,71   187

1950   110  1,761  193,71   191

1951   110  1,760  193,6	188

1952   3h   1,761		   172

1953   3h   1,761			  

1954   3h   1,714			  

1955   110  1,714  188,54   193

1957   110  1,714  188,54   188

1958	50  1,615   85,75	86

1959	80  1,761  140,88   137

1960						154

1961						171

1962						171

1963						171
expl. (alltogether in miles) :
tl = tracklength
Sheld. = racelength by Sheldon
Mo. = racelength by Monkhouse / King-Farlow


Sheldon's 1,721mi could simply be a typo, but Monkhouse's racelength-data seem to indicate some slight track-modifactions over the years?

#28 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 17:50

Robert –Thank you for your erudite explanation.

Can we then take for granted that the 25 February 1900 race at Pau was held on the same 335 km Circuit de Sud-Ouest and that the 1900 winner René de Knyff (Panhard 16 hp) also won the Grand Prix de Pau?

The 212 km Pau race on 25 March 1899, won by Albert Lemaître (Peugeot) was however held on a shorter course, not termed a circuit, AFAIK, but nevertheless using Bayonne as a turning point. Reference of a Grand Prix de Pau is not mentioned for this 1899 event in my secondary sources, therefore probably the Pau-Bayonne-Pau title for this race.

#29 robert dick

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 09:06

In 1900 a “Grand Prix de Pau” is not mentioned in La France Automobile (at least I did not find it). Distance in 1900 was 335 km.

The designation “Grand Prix de Pau” did not appear until 1901 when the 650 kg class was introduced. In 1901, the winner of the heavy class was the winner of the Grand Prix de Pau, and the winners of the 650 kg and 400 kg class were the winners of the Grand Prix du Palais d’Hiver, in the first (650 kg) and in the second (400 kg) "catégorie". The overall winner (which was not necessarily the winner of the heavy class = Grand Prix de Pau) was the winner of the Circuit du Sud-Ouest.

To use the designation “Grand Prix de Pau” for the 1901 race as a whole is misleading, it was only a class win and hence should only appear if the different classes are specified, in combination with Grand Prix du Palais d’Hiver and Prix du Béarn.

Without context the designations/titles
“Pau-Bayonne-Pau” for 1899,
and “Circuit du Sud-Ouest” for 1900 and 1901
would be a good solution.

#30 eldougo

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 10:48

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Pau is talking to Pook about CART. That would be an awesome but ridiculously crazy race. Pau also is trying to get DTM and/or EuroSport SuperRace Weekends (FIA GTs, Super Renaults, etc)


______________________________________________

:rotfl: Surely the are not serious about running CART cars there . The double yellows would
be given a hard time .Pitty the flagies? Great track however not for those cars.

#31 fines

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 19:49

Btw, do we have complete (or, nearly complete...) results for the 1899 Pau - Bayonne - Pau? So far I have:

Cars:
1 Albert Lemaître, Peugeot, 3:57'36"
2 ? Barbereau*, ?*
R Étienne Giraud, Amédée Bollée Jr.

Cycles:
1 ? Vasseur**, Phébus
2 ? de Gras, ?
3 Henri Béconnais, ?***
R ? Geo, ?

* possibly Barbereau-Bergeon
** possibly Levasseur (probably not Jimmy Vasseur...;))
*** possibly Aster

Anyone with more?

#32 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 05:36

There is more to be found here.

#33 gerrit stevens

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Posted 27 December 2003 - 13:54

Originally posted by robert dick
The designation “Grand Prix de Pau” did not appear until 1901 when the 650 kg class was introduced. In 1901, the winner of the heavy class was the winner of the Grand Prix de Pau, and the winners of the 650 kg and 400 kg class were the winners of the Grand Prix du Palais d’Hiver, in the first (650 kg) and in the second (400 kg) "catégorie". The overall winner (which was not necessarily the winner of the heavy class = Grand Prix de Pau) was the winner of the Circuit du Sud-Ouest.


So, in fact there was a GP de Pau and a GP du Palais d'Hiver but only as part of the Circuit du Sud-Ouest.

I have also an additional result for this GP de Pau (= heavy cars) which is not mentioned in Rose's book.

3. Bergeon. Car and time not given.
Source Nederlandsche Sport 970 (21 February 1901)

From the same source other Pau Speedweek results.

14 February 1901 – Pau-Lescar-Orthez-Peyrehorade-Pau, 140 km
Prix du Commerce
1 Henri Farman (Darracq 12 hp.) 2:20'30"
2 Laffitte
3 Guillemin


Prix des Cercles
1 Rudeau (?? 12 hp.) 2:34'57"


Prix de la Presse
1 Bergeon (?? 10 hp.) 3:50'05"


Prix de Bearn (motocycles) 17 February 1901, 332 kn
1 Osmont 5:24'35"
2 Gaste 5:25'25"
3 Henri Beconnais 5:35'50"
Did not start
Demester (Gladiator)


Gerrit Stevens