12 replies to this topic

[Dennis Hockenbury]

I have read many accounts of the meeting between the British constructors and the CSI/FIA which established the 3-liter engine formula to commence in 1966.

As most are aware, the British constructors wanted a change in the regulations to increase the displacement limit from the existing 1.5 liter to a 2.0 liter formula. At a meeting with the CSI in Paris, and using a bit of liar's poker, the constructors requested a change to 3 liters anticipating a compromise down to the desired 2 liters.

Much to the surprise of the constructors, the CSI promptly agreed, much to the dismay of the constructors.

While this account is found in many books, the date of this meeting is rarely provided. In fact, I can find only two sources, and they do not agree.

A first person account of this meeting is provided by Tony Rudd in his wonderful, "It was fun!" (pgs. 224-225) and he goes into much detail regarding this meeting. The British constructors were represented by Rudd, Chapman, and Brabham. The meeting takes place on the birthday of Tony Rudd's daughter, 27 November, 1964.

Another account of this meeting is provided by Doug Nye in his outstanding "Autocourse History of the Grand Prix Car" (pgs. 20-25). In DCN's account, the date of this meeting is 22/23 November, 1963.

Can anyone point me in the right direction to resolve my confusion?

[Don Capps]

It was the weekend that President John Kennedy was assasinated in Dallas, so the 22nd....

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Thanks Don. I was also thinking of the Kennedy assocation which would be valid IF the 1963 date is accurate.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

I had always been under the impression that there was some linkage between the date of this meeting and the genesis of the F1CA/FOCA.

As I am now roughly 50% through "Bernie's Game", it appears that much of my previous understanding was in error, and the book offers no new information on the date in question.

It has however, raised many new questions for me pertaining to my understanding of the formation of the F1CA. A very difficult story to uncover.

[Don Capps]

FOCA came into being in the Spring of 1964. Whether it was a response to the announcement of the new formula or not is open to question, but it was perhaps more due to the payment schemes negotiations than anything else.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Don Capps
FOCA came into being in the Spring of 1964. Whether it was a response to the announcement of the new formula or not is open to question, but it was perhaps more due to the payment schemes negotiations than anything else.

Early February. The founder members were Brabham, BRM, Cooper and Lotus. Membership was open to any compnay or organisation from any country fulfilling the following definition of racing car constructor: (a) A constructor who builds all of his car completely, or (b) builds a racing car without using a substantial number of parts from another constructor's products and further © has completed one season of racing with such a product and (d) has had his application for membership approved by the individual members of the association.

I assume clause (d) meant that they could admit who they wanted.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Don Capps
It was the weekend that President John Kennedy was assasinated in Dallas, so the 22nd....

Are you sure, Don?

Autosport on 22nd November said the new formula would be decided by the CSI on 28-29th November. On 29th November they were speculating about the new formula, and on 4th December they reported the decision.

[Doug Nye]

First secretary of the F1CA upon its formation was my late friend Andrew Ferguson who took on these duties in addition to operating as coordinator/manager for Team Lotus. He also added secretaryship of the related Formula 2 Constructors' Association for his pains.

DCN

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
The founder members were Brabham, BRM, Cooper and Lotus.

First, my thanks to Roger, Don, and Doug for their information.

I have always shared the same understanding re: the original F1CA member teams. However, in "Bernie's Game" the author states (pgs.56-57) as follows:

"It was in these uncertain days that gave birth to what over the next two decades would become the most powerful force in Formula One - the Formula One Constructors Association (F1CA). It was modelled on the Formula 2 Association, which was formed in late 1963 to represent the interests of English constructors Lotus, Brabham, and Cooper, who had agreed to compete the following year in the Grands Prix de France, a series of Formula Two races organised by the French motor-sports body, the Federation Francaise du Sport Automobile (FFSA), to take place at Pau, Reims, Rouen, Clermont-Ferrand and Albi. It worked sufficiently well to prompt the constructors to form a similar association for Formula One, which, for reasons related to personalities, did not include in those days Louis Stanley's BRM or Enzo Ferrari's team, the former being considered too demanding and latter too disdainful. Its adminstration was carried out by Ferguson, who, at Colin Chapman's invitation, agreed to look after its affairs in return for an annual fee of 15 pounds per year. Two years later, in 1966, it was being run from Ferguson's home, a cottage adjoining Chapman's splendid Carleton Manor, at East Carleton, Norwich."

If I have interpreted this passage correctly, I assume the following:

The original F1CA members did not include BRM. This contridicts everything I have read on this subject.

I'm not quite sure whether the passage ascribes the date of origin of late 1963 to the F1CA or F2CA.

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Autosport on 22nd November said the new formula would be decided by the CSI on 28-29th November. On 29th November they were speculating about the new formula, and on 4th December they reported the decision.

Is this 1963? I assume yes, however this contridicts Rudd's account.

Originally posted by Don Capps
FOCA came into being in the Spring of 1964. Whether it was a response to the announcement of the new formula or not is open to question, but it was perhaps more due to the payment schemes negotiations than anything else.

Don, there is a passage in "Managing A Legend; Edwards; Pg. 285" that seems to support an early 1964 date:

“ At the beginning of 1964, the Formula 1 Constructors Association came into being. FOCA, as it is now commonly known, was set up by Cooper, Brabham, BRM, and Lotus. It was the ‘Paris Agreement’, cooked up by the British-based car makers which pointedly and very effectively ended any aspirations which the BRP has of being a serious manufacturer……….Applications for membership were announced at the beginning of 1964……In the summer of 1964 the BRP informed the powers that be that they were ready to comply with the requirements and offered their cars for inspection.”

According to Mr. Lovell, the original function of the F1CA in its inital form until 1972 (enter Bernie) was for collective bargaining for the four aforementioned teams transportation arrangements with the event organizers.

This differs from my original understanding in that the collective bargaining by the F1CA was broader in scope to include starting and prize monies, etc.

As referenced by a prior DCN post shown below, these teams had some prior collobration in advance of the offical formation of the F1CA:

http://www.atlasf1.c...4206#post734206

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The F1CA negotiated regularised start, prize and travel monies with GP organisers really from 1962-63ish forwards. They participated in The London Agreement and The Paris Agreement on financial terms, and constructors - as in Lotus, BRM, Cooper and newcomer Brabham - had more clout than private entrants, which included BRP.

To expand upon my original thoughts in post 4, the linkage I referred to was whether the formation of F1CA was a direct result of the four teams getting together to bargain with the FIA over the engine rules, which then led them to consider forming the F1CA. Or were they independent events.

While I have read Rudd's account of this, has Jack Brabham ever commented on this subject? The others have now sadly departed.

Again, my thanks to all and apologies for the lengthy post.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

In trying to find the answer to my question of the date of the Paris meeting, a Google points to an article by our own Don Capps.

Rear View Mirror - Three of Three: A Tale of the Life and Times of the Grand Prix World, 1966 to 1968

"After the initial surprise of the announcement of the Commission Sportive Internationale (CSI) of the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) in November 1963 concerning the new Grand Prix formula to into effect in January 1966 started to wear off, the discussion started. The 2:1 ratio of the maximum displacements of unsupercharged to supercharged engines - 3,000cc to 1,500cc - caught almost everyone by surprise. The three litres was not so much a surprise as that there was an option for supercharged engines."

Don, do you have any references for this date, or do you know where I can obtain same?

[Dennis Hockenbury]

The plot thickens......

From - "Back to the Future: The FIASCO War by Don Capps"

"....From its formation in November 1964 , FOCA began to exercise more and more influence on how things were run in the world of Grand Prix racing."

[Don Capps]

Dennis, the 1964 date is an error. It should have been 1963, when the intent to formally organize was first taken. I am still leafing through my notes for a date other than the weekend of the 22nd for the CSI meeting. Somewhere in the chaos of my notes there is an article from Comp Press or some other Race Rag as to the date of the FIA meeting. It is not beyond the pale that I am in error -- I have rarely found Roger incorrect.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Don, my thanks. While not attempting to point out any error, I feel like the hamster running on the wheel. Everytime I begin to think I'm getting close to the answer, another question emerges.

Alas, I already know that I am a masochist, I do play a lot of golf after all.