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Rolls-Royce Legalimit V8


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#1 marion5drsn

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 00:08

http://www.darkforce.com/royce/v8.htm

Note the extremely unusual position of the intake and exhaust valves on the outside of the head. This is the only engine I have ever seen that has this feature. This would lower the Center of gravity of the engine and also put the exhaust in a position on the outside of the head just like the other V-8s of that day but would not put an excessive amount of exhaust piping on the inside of the block. Ala de Dion-Bouton and Ford in 1932. Also notice the gearbox on the front of the engine so there must have been two camshafts, one on each side of the engine. Plus five toothed wheels-gear (1) pinions (2) and idlers (2).
Notice the four horizontal spark plugs, this at a time when this type of spark pug was in its infancy. Didn’t Lodge or Bosch just invent this almost at the same time that this engine was built?

Almost 100 years ago, Bosch presented the first spark plug . The company was subsequently awarded its patent in January 1902.
I cannot find any definite time when Lodge made their first claim on the sparking plug.

Can anyone ascertain whether or not this engine was an overhead valve or was it a side valve engine?
My guess would be it is a side valve as the valve springs are on the outside bottom area of the block and in the open as were many springs in that era.

As we do not have any information on the crankshaft style I am going to assume it is a 180-degree crankshaft and which we all know has very bad Secondary Shake characteristics. This is complicated by the fact I cannot determine from the picture whether it is a 90-degree block or 135-degree or what angle. It did have one thing going for it and that is the short stroke of 3.250” (82.55mm). We also do not know the important length of the conrods, a large contributor to the Secondary Shake if too short.
Note the intake manifold shows every appearance of being siamesed. One can easily see this by noticing just how close the intake passages must be to the spark plugs. Also notice how close together the Spark plugs are. All of this must make for a very low compression ratio! This is one miserable intake/exhaust manifold layout. A detachable head would have cured much of these problems but at this time head gaskets were still a big problem. I believe that the basic was valid but the execution was poor because of the very early time at which it was designed. Just notice that the use of dual camshafts and positive driven valves was good. Did they try to make the engine too low in the chassis and sacrificed good design to achieve this?
The bottom “rail” is much lower than the crankshaft centerline this allowing the camshafts to operate in a place on the “level” with the crankshaft

M.L. Anderson

http://home.earthlin...EGALIMITV-8.JPG

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#2 Geoff E

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 07:12

Originally posted by marion5drsn
This is complicated by the fact I cannot determine from the picture whether it is a 90-degree block or 135-degree or what angle.


Did you have any particular reason for doubting the text:- "Engine : 8 cylinder 90 degree V configuration"?

#3 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 08:20

Where did I read that it was 135 degrees, Marion?

Was that from a website, or did you tell us that on the V8 crankshaft thread in the Tech Forum?

#4 marion5drsn

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 15:57

June 26-2003
Did you have any particular reason for doubting the text:- "Engine : 8 cylinder 90 degree V configuration"?

Since I have not a way of definitely going to the picture and rotating it and definitely determining the cylinder angle I presented that as what may be called a rhetorical presentation.
As you may well know there is a lot of poor information in all books and a lot of it on the net. See the address below for an example of this. I even e-mailed but have never received an answer as to why he claims the Legalimit has such an engine and where did he get his information? Where did the information on the bore and stroke come from?

Below is one bad information address!

http://www.rolls-roy.../legalimit.html

I notice that neither of you made a comment about the missing items at the lower valve area this is due to the restricted vertical length to allow a sufficient length of the valve spring There just is not enough room for a “Normal” spring valve, cam follower the little parts for the adjustment etcetera. More work to follow. Yours, M.L. Anderson

#5 VAR1016

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 16:10

I have alsways been curious about the Legalimit, and was very interested to see the drawing.

I would describe the valve configuration as inclined side-valve.

I would imagine that since the engine probably ran at no more than a few hundred rpm, that balance issues were unlikely to be a problem; in fact I would not have been surprised that fine engineer that he was, Royce would have solved the balance calculations and made a 90-degree crankshaft (he was probably not too bothered about the exhaust manifolds' extractive qualities :) )

PdeRL

#6 marion5drsn

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 21:41

Your comment about the 90-degree cranks has been made by several people and is with some president. However one must remember that it took a lot of people at General Motors to design the 90-degree cranks. When I first read of it I just figured that it wouldn’t take a lot of calculations to do this. But the more I mess around with the two different cranks the more admiration that I have for the engineers at G.M. who did this. When they did this it looks relatively simple to achieve but remember this is back in 1923. Ader and Levavassuer did the first V-8 engines in the late 1800s and did not achieve any real success until around 1902 or when they applied for patents. Remember even Frederick William Lanchester must have known about the vibration during WW-1 when he was in the British War office.
The Hispano-Suiza was made in England At the factories of Wolseley and even he has no record of doing anything about it. They even applied a full set of eight primary counterweights to the cranks so we must again conclude that the vibration was well appreciated even at that time. So I must conclude it was more difficult than we today think to achieve. It looks so simple but it must not have been so! Would not someone have done it much earlier if it were so easy? Just look at the men who were hand and foot into engines and especially V-8s who did not do it. I certainly wouldn’t call any of them either just lucky or dumb by any standards.
Also look at the gap between the first V-2 engine and the first fairly successful V-8s.Twenty years is a long time for that gap and then another 20 years until the 90-degree crank.
The V-12 engine must have been a piece of cake as both Sunbeam and Packard were so close that it was a case of WW-1 interfering in it.
Yours M.L. Anderson

#7 VAR1016

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 23:29

Yes, it is obvious that a lot of thought went into this And much later , mistakes were still being made: see Tony Rudd "It was Fun" as to how BRM added counter-balance wieghts to counter-balance the counter-balances on the 1.5 litre 90 degree V-8 - and kept breaking crankcases and gearboxes as a result (the error was spotted by Harry Mundy).

And then they went onto the flat-plane crank engine (as did Coventry Climax) and made the same mistake again! This time it was spotted early on. The BRM V-8 could run at 12000 rpm and was pretty reliable - and very powerful.

Has anyone approached R-R about the Legalimit? I suppose they must have done; perhaps it's a subject that R-R prefers to forget!

PdeRL

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 23:41

Originally posted by VAR1016
.....Has anyone approached R-R about the Legalimit? I suppose they must have done; perhaps it's a subject that R-R prefers to forget!


As all the cars were recalled (IIRC), it's presumably very difficult to get anything out of R-R about them...

A black spot in the life of Rolls-Royce's fine automotive design history.

#9 VAR1016

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 08:48

Originally posted by Ray Bell


As all the cars were recalled (IIRC), it's presumably very difficult to get anything out of R-R about them...

A black spot in the life of Rolls-Royce's fine automotive design history.


Yes I'm sure that's correct; what a prize though of a set of engine drawings could be found.

Imagine: a six-litre car governed to a maximum of 20mph!

PdeRL

#10 marion5drsn

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 16:00

V8 Legalimit
(1905-1906)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Years in production : 1905 - 1906
No. made : 3

Engine : V-8 90 degree block

Bore & stroke 3 1/4" x 3 1/4" (82.55mm X 82.55mm)

215.69 cubic inches (3.535 Liters)

Transmission : Cone type clutch, 3 speeds and reverse

Chassis : Pressed steel, semi-elliptic springs front

Dimensions : Wheelbase 106 "


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Performance At low governor setting 1st gear 8 mph (12.9km/h), 2nd gear 13.5 mph (22.5 km/h), 3rd gear 21.5 mph (34.6 km/h); at high governor setting a top speed of 26 mph (41.8 km/h) could be achieved thus exceeding the legal speed limit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Rolls-Royce Legalimit V-8, was to be as silent as an electrically powered town car. The crucial feature was a gearbox layout restricting the top speed to the legal limit of 20 mph. This task added to the work of the already overworked Royce who was suffering from declining health due to having been burdened with far too much work over the recent years.
Because ever-higher power and speed was already being expected from motor cars, expectations for the project were not promising. Although some really brilliant technical solutions graced the V8 engine, only three Rolls-Royce Legalimits were produced and the model is the only one amongst all the Rolls-Royce types of which none has survived.

Below is a sketch of the Legalimit that is identified with what I believe to be the indentification of the assembled items.

http://home.earthlin.../Legalimit2.JPG

M.L. Anderson

#11 VAR1016

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 20:45

Originally posted by marion5drsn
V8 Legalimit
(1905-1906)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Years in production : 1905 - 1906
No. made : 3

Engine : 8 cylinder 90 degree V configuration

Bore & stroke : 3 1/4" x 3 1/4"

c.c. : 3,535

Transmission : Cone type lutch, 3 speeds and reverse

Chassis : Pressed steel, semi-elliptic springs front

Dimensions : Wheelbase 106 "


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Performance At low governor setting 1st gear 8 mph (12.9km/h), 2nd gear 13.5 mph (22.5 km/h), 3rd gear 21.5 mph (34.6 km/h); at high governor setting a top speed of 26 mph (41.8 km/h) could be achieved thus exceeding the legal speed limit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Rolls-Royce Legalimit with its 8 cylinder engine, the cylinders being in a vee, was to be as silent as an electrically powered town car.The crucial feature was a gearbox layout restricting the top speed to the legal limit of 20 mph. This task added to the work of the already overworked Royce who was suffering from declining health due to having been burdened with far too much work over the recent years.
Because ever-higher power and speed was already being expected from motor cars, expectations for the project were not promising. Although some really brilliant technical solutions graced the V8 engine, only three Rolls-Royce Legalimits were produced and the model is the only one amongst all the Rolls-Royce types of which none has survived.

Below is a sketch of the Legalimit that is identified with what I believe to be the indentification of the assembled items.

http://home.earthlin.../Legalimit2.JPG

M.L. Anderson


Mnay thanks Marion; very interesting.

PdeRL

#12 marion5drsn

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 23:23

A view of the combustion chamber viewed from above. Notice that the valves do not look as elliptical as on an ordinary old flathead engine. Also the spark plug goes in the "wrong way".

M.L. Anderson :D

http://home.earthlin...EGALIMITV-8.JPG

#13 marion5drsn

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 19:20

A view of the siamesed intake area. This same bad feature was used on the 1914 Hispano-Suiza aircraft engine used in WW-1 in many French, English and American aircraft including the S.P.A.D. and the English S.E.-5. Also the length of the intake manifold is far too short for a motorcar of this type.
M.L. Anderson :D

http://home.earthlin...LEGAGLIMIT3.JPG

#14 VAR1016

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 22:29

Originally posted by marion5drsn
A view of the siamesed intake area. This same bad feature was used on the 1914 Hispano-Suiza aircraft engine used in WW-1 in many French, English and American aircraft including the S.P.A.D. and the English S.E.-5. Also the length of the intake manifold is far too short for a motorcar of this type.
M.L. Anderson :D

http://home.earthlin...LEGAGLIMIT3.JPG


Yes, true it is a bad feature, although since Royce was expecting <10 BHP/litre I doubt that it was an issue.

However, what baffles me iis that this bad feature is to be found on the BMC A series engine as used in the Mini. And with a cast-iron head, two siamesed inlet ports and a siamesed exhaust port for Nos 2 and 3, tuners have been getting over 100BHP/litre for years. I wish I could do that on my Lancia engine.

And the Legalimit had seperate exhaust ports!!

PdeRL

#15 marion5drsn

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 01:12

A view of the firing order and firing pattern since I am fully convinced that it had a 180 degree crankshaft. M.L. Anderson :wave:

http://home.earthlin...IMITV-8F.P..JPG

#16 marion5drsn

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 22:59

A 720-Degree circle to show the effect of the Tee shaped siamesed intake ports and the firing at 180-degree instead of 360 degrees apart. With such an interference at each port combined with a very short intake manifold one can only imagine the effect on the idling and smoothness :down: of the engine operation for a car as Rolls-Royce. M.L. Anderson. :)

Edit below July-02-2003.
An explanation of the reason for my concern about the adjacent cylinders being only 180 degrees apart in the firing order and yet they are Tee Siamesed in the intake ports. By using the two sketches of the firing orders both in circular and plan form one can determine the problem of the lack of a separation of the ports an their interference of each other in idling and smooth operation as a Rolls-Royce is expected to be as this was not an engine for high performance as in a racing engine. This is only one of the features that are not in the R-R going to a Tea Party Social function type of motorcar.

One must remember that the Silver Ghost was in development at this same time period and since it turned out to be a superior motorcar for the R-R clientele they just dropped the Legalimit V-8 as just being a superfluous addition to the already limited production facilities of R-R.

Just whether or not R-R would have been able to develop the V-8 to a 90-degree crankshaft is doubtful in my mind considering the brainpower it took G.M./Cadillac to do the same altho G.M. was engaged in far greater numbers of motorcars per year as compared to R-R.

M.L. Anderson


http://home.earthlin...-8F.P.CIRC..JPG

#17 corniche

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 18:04

This is a rather aged thread - so I don't know if there's anyone still interested in this subject... and/or if those who posted here are still looking & interested... but I just found this thread by chance - and the early Rolls-Royce V8 is of interest to me. Here are a few points:

- it is a matter of fact that the Legalimit V8 (along with the V8's used in the "Invisibles") was configured at 90 degrees. (There are head-on drawings that you can measure to verify. There survives a picture of the chassis and a couple the Legalimit itself - no pictures of an Invisible.)

- the original conception was to create a petrol powered car to compete with electric powered cars (that looked just like carriages) - a preference of the rich because they were quiet and didn't smoke (an unfortunate feature of early cars without proper oil-feed lubrication). So the car had to be quiet and smokeless - the selling point: the petrol car will have a far greater range.

- to accomplish this, this V8 was made to be set under the driver of the carriage up front - thus, the "V" configuration, to save space. It had an advanced oil-feed system the kept the motor from smoking and ran very quietly. The models were called "Invisible" because the engine was out of sight - there was no hood.

- the Legalimit was introduced, using the same chassis as the "Invisible", based on the strong patronage of Lord Northcliffe, who championed the idea of a car that would not exceed the speed limit of the time. The car was designed with a "normal" configuration.

The engine had some teething problems, but ran, by all accounts, smoothly and quietly. Rolls-Royce settled on the 6 cylinder as it was generally accepted to be the best configuration - at a time when more the two cylinders was considered to be "showing off". It was clear that the 6 cylinder 40/50 "Silver Ghost" was going to be a smash - for that and other reasons, Rolls-Royce adopted a "single model" policy - all the other models were discontinued along with the V8.

This is a short bit on the subject - naturally there's more out there, but not much. As it turns out, every production model Rolls-Royce made has at least one example surviving to our time, except this one - there are no V8's. Many of the advances engineered into that V8 were "read over" to the Silver Ghost (such as the oil-feed system). Had it survived, it may have stolen some of GM/Ford's thunder...

#18 VAR1016

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 19:17

I have taken an interest in this thread because the Legalimit always fascinated me - even given the "fluid" conditions of design at the time, with the benefit of hindsight it seems an extraordinary idea.

However, Corniche, I think that Marion Anderson was trying to point out that whilst yes, the engine was a 90 degree Vee, it had a 180 degree crankshaft.

I have to add that I am certain that Royce's engineering talent would very quickly have led him to conclude that for smoothness a 90-degree crankshaft was preferable, and then, as you say GM's thunder may well have been stolen.

Nevertheless, since the Legalimit was governed to a maximum of 20 mph I assume that it was unlikely to have run at above 1500 rpm, so balance considerations were probably fairly insignificant.

PdeRL

#19 corniche

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 21:26

Thanks for the reply (wow!, that was quick!) I'm so glad that there's still at least one set of eyes still on the subject. With regards to the substance of your reply - I should have read more carefully, I missed where the hairs were being split (and if you have as few hairs as I do, where hairs are split can be important!) Taking another look, it does seem that the 180 degree crankshaft comes from deduction, rather than a direct source (if not, I'd love to know the source.)

Speaking of sources - there were several picture links herein, which don't seem to work (no doubt due to age). I think they were all Mr. Anderson's ~ I hope there can be way they could be re-activated... I have pictures I believe would be of interest... unless they've already been seen of course (as there aren't many out there.)

On another note, while it is often stated that the V8 cars were geared not to exceed 20 m.p.h., as far as I know, the company literature only claimed this feature for the actual Legalimit, not the "Invisible" towncar.

** Searching with a far greater preference to learn than to be right - please, one and all, correct me where I'm wrong... question where it looks like a may be... **

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#20 Terry Walker

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 02:31

It's possible that The Henry Royce Foundation, The Hunt House, Paulerspury, UK, has some material, as all the old archival stuff went there from R-R. Maybe a drawing still exists showing the design of the crankshaft, which could settle the issue.

Googling Rolls-Royce Enthusiasts Club should find them.

#21 VAR1016

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 17:02

Originally posted by corniche
Thanks for the reply (wow!, that was quick!) I'm so glad that there's still at least one set of eyes still on the subject. With regards to the substance of your reply - I should have read more carefully, I missed where the hairs were being split (and if you have as few hairs as I do, where hairs are split can be important!) Taking another look, it does seem that the 180 degree crankshaft comes from deduction, rather than a direct source (if not, I'd love to know the source.)

Speaking of sources - there were several picture links herein, which don't seem to work (no doubt due to age). I think they were all Mr. Anderson's ~ I hope there can be way they could be re-activated... I have pictures I believe would be of interest... unless they've already been seen of course (as there aren't many out there.)

On another note, while it is often stated that the V8 cars were geared not to exceed 20 m.p.h., as far as I know, the company literature only claimed this feature for the actual Legalimit, not the "Invisible" towncar.

** Searching with a far greater preference to learn than to be right - please, one and all, correct me where I'm wrong... question where it looks like a may be... **


The "invisible" is new to me; presumably one of the Legalimits? I knew of the Legalimit and also the fact that apparently only three were built - and I possibly read somewhere that R-R bought them back.

Interesting about the six-cylinder business: the 30HP was really not very nice as far as I understand; all of course was "sorted out" for the 40/50.

PdeRL

#22 corniche

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 19:48

I should have checked Morton’s book (A History of Rolls-Royce Motorcars), there is a bit in the section about the V-8’s that talks about the crankshaft – the layout was the same as the 4 cylinder R-R, 180 degrees (the 3 & 6 cylinders were at 120 degrees.)

The “Invisible” was truly the first conception of the chassis with a V-8 (The 1906 company catalogue shows three versions: a “Landaulet par Excellence” a “Landau” open car and a “Touring” open version.) Since it was to be, essentially, a horse-drawn carriage with an engine, the V-8 was used to save on height, as the driver would be sitting above the engine. That same chassis was used for the Legalimit. With high-speed internet (because of download times otherwise), one could view a few pieces I wrote on the subject – early on in looking at the subject, compiled together in a PDF file at: http://rroc.alsw.com...?SID=1&UKEY=557 . The content of those bits reflect the beginning of a journey of inquiry.

I’m sure there are things in the closets of the RREC’s Hunt House that would be fun to see… but that’ll have to be something to be investigated with an arranged visit…

There are no good pictures of a completed Invisible (no pun intended.) However, at the time, Rolls-Royce announced that a V-8 would be used in an “inspection program” – traveling out to customers and in checking up on their cars, they would gather data for the factory regarding the performance (and wear) of the cars in service.

Looking forward to reading more input!

#23 Henk

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 19:34

PDF file of Henry Royce’s patent application related to the Legalimit engine:

http://v3.espacenet....QPN=GB190523557

#24 corniche

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 13:00

That was a great link & great info! Thx! (The drawings appear in Morton's book...)

#25 Henk

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 13:41

……. and the distributor:

http://v3.espacenet....QPN=GB190523556

#26 corniche

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 15:31

Thanks! That's great! I guess I need to see about using that site to search too. Very many thanks for taking the time to look & put that link on.

#27 corniche

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 14:46

Hi All,

At the risk of sounding like I should get a life ~ I was hoping for some more posts... (before the subject slipped into the back pages of all these threads) this is (obviously for me) an interesting thread, but what's more is that there were picture links herein that are of special interest - as there are so few. (I think it was "Marion5drsn" that posted all of those links... are you out there?... would you be sympathetic towards posting those pictures again??...)

Thanks to all for your kind attention!

#28 Terry Walker

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 16:29

Hi Corniche...

Some pics, all published in The Autocar in 1905. Question ... is this the first ever catalogued V8 passenger car? I've not seen an earlier one.

Posted Image

Posted Image

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#29 corniche

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 03:33

Thanks for the pictures! The "V" format wasn't a new thing when R-R made the Legalimit... but I'm not sure at the moment what they were otherwise - i.e., were they 8's or 6's or 2's... good question!

#30 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 04:18

Marion Anderson's your expert on those things...

But I'm fairly sure there was a French one before R-R got on the case. Probably de Dion Bouton as mentioned by him in the first post.

#31 Terry Walker

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 06:56

De Dion's first catalogued V8 was 1910. 6.1 litres. There were other V8 engines before 1910, mostly I think aviation.

#32 dbw

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 07:47

darracq certainly had a V8 in 1906ish...ohv no less; and in a vehicle....glenn curtiss made "airship" V8's around '07..one appeared at ormond beach with 2 wheels , ray harroun ran a 4 wheeler V8 there in '07 as well....along with the well engineered hissos of the wwI era i think pre- OX5 curtiss aero V8's existed earlier than 1914...the OX5 of course was a 90 degree engine but with all the monkey motion valve gear and a giant mag resting proudly right on top ,wasn't made for low bonnets.

#33 Henk

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 09:41

By combining two of his V-4's, the first V-8 engine applied in an automobile was built by Clément Ader in 1903. Three Ader V-8’s were entered in the Paris-Madrid event.

The Darracq V-8 record car was a contemporary of the Legalimit.

See: http://www.darracq-v8.co.uk

#34 corniche

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 17:55

The following is from the 1966 second edition of Bird & Hallow’s “The Rolls-Royce Motorcar” {pg. 63}:

“There was, of course, nothing new in the V-shaped engine, as the famous Daimler V-twin had powered all Panhard and Peugeot cars from 1891 to 1895; Emile Mors had used an advanced V-4 engine in 1897 and a remarkable V-12 unit for motor boats was marketed by Craig Dorwald in 1904. There was also the Adams Eight, which appeared at about the same time as Royce’s design, which had a V-8 engine based upon the Antoinette used by Santos-Dumont in his airship. But Royce’s V-8 was so neat and compact, with such admirably planned accessories, that it might wall have been designed in 1930 rather than 1905.”

The interesting point (if I got it right) from Terry’s post is – is the Legalimit the first passenger V8 (and I’ll add “production” – because although less than a handful were made, there were two models and the intent was clearly for long-lived production, which was cancelled (along with all other R-R models), to assume a 1-model production for the 40/50 h.p. “Silver Ghost” – a wise choice.)

I am not familiar with the “Adams Eight” mentioned above – but all I’ve seen so far, prior to 1905, were other V’s and one-off or racing V8’s, but nothing intended for production. Can anyone come up with a passenger-production V8 older than the Legalimit?

#35 VAR1016

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 18:14

Off-topic I know, but Corniche's mention of Craig Dorwald rang a bell.

How lovely it WAS to have a memory. I recall that when I first bought "Motor Sport", there used to be a series called "Fragments on Forgotten Makes" by WB of course. And the first one I saw concerned the Craig Dorwald - I have forgotten a) the details and b) all subsequent "Fragments".

I doubt if the Craig Dorwald cars had V8 engines...

PdeRL

#36 dbw

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 19:03

with all due respect to RR and those close to the marque, didn't mercedes have a car in ,say '03-'04 that actually looked and drove like a car of many years later?....while i can appreciate an engine of advanced design [but come on, decide just what plane your stuff is in..angled cylinders and vertical pushrods and valves ?..a strange combustion chamber indeed..] why did it have to be clothed to look like the coronation coach?...or perhaps this was the paradigm set by rolls way into it's production life; a car visually arrested in the late teens.

btw..i used to have an '08 cadillac single cylinder touring..basically the same model that won the dewar prize...where was rolls royce then??

#37 m9a3r5i7o2n

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 19:54

The address below might help all of us to find the oldest V-8 engine of record.
The engine here is an aircraft and boat engine I do not know if anyone put one in an automobile. But we must remember that Darraccq did put one of the most mammoth V-8s in a race car. And for that time a very good one at that.

http://www.tecsoc.or...y/2002/dec2.htm

The picture at post # 28 is a big help in finding that the engine was very definably of 90 degree bank angle. All one needs to see this clearly is a 90 degree edge of an ordinary sheet of paper applied in the proper manner to the edges in the sketch.

The one “damning” item that seems to very definitely indicate a 180 degree crank is that R-R did not keep on making the Legalimit after only making three (?) of them is the fact that a R-R was supposed to be a smooth riding smooth driving car for the wealthy going to tea crowd and therefore any roughness was not to be tolerated.
The 180 degree crank without the Oakland-Pontiac Secondary Shake Dampener just didn’t get it. This item wasn’t invented until much later and added to the expense of the car. Something that R-R probably wouldn’t have cared about anyway. Look at the trouble and lawsuits with F.W. Lancaster about the Torsional vibration dampener on the sixes.

Unfortunately I cannot resurrect the old sketches as they were put on an old format of 3.5” floppies which I do not have on my new computer.

More on the odd combustion chamber and its somewhat resemblance to the Oakland -Pontiac combustion chamber.
Yours, M. L. Anderson :)

#38 corniche

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 20:51

Thanks Mr. Anderson & to all who posted. The engine definitely had a 180 degree crank – that’s a matter of record. However, the “Legalimit” (a car made not to go above 20 mph) and it’s horse-carriage looking kin (the “Invisible” with the engine hidden under the driver of the carriage), with horse-carriage looking cars going out of fashion, these elements held a dark fait over these cars more than anything else. But as it turns out, it was a board decision to produce one model – so the V8, the 4 cylinder (which was wining races) – all were discontinued so the company can produce only the 40/50 h.p. “Silver Ghost”. There are reports of issues with the V8’s cylinder heads, but all accounts were that it ran smoothly (which makes sense at the speeds it would have been running.) In the December 2, 1905 Autocar, they took the landaulet version (an “Invisible”) out for a test drive and reported: “It appears to us to be quite an ideal town carriage, as smooth-running as an electric vehicle, and almost as quiet.” And “The car would run in perfect smoothness behind a crawling cab on the top speed, and then, with a touch of the throttle, make for an opening in the traffic…” I'm not clear on how to upload images... will have to figure that one out...
Best to all!

#39 Terry Walker

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 10:34

According to Georgano, Adams introduced a 32 hp V8 in 1906, based on the Antoinette V8. It didn't stay in production much longer the Rolls-Royce V8.

Antionette themselves showed a 32 hp V8 engined car at the 1906 Paris Salon. They offered a larger V8 the same year, but nothing seems to have come of either of these offerings and Antionette stayed in the aviation engine business. So it's still R-R as first to offer a V8 car to the public, by a very short head. Is there another contender sneaking up the inside on the rails?

and just a comment on dbw's comment,

btw..i used to have an '08 cadillac single cylinder touring..basically the same model that won the dewar prize...where was rolls royce then??
]
Well, making highly refined, smooth, smokeless, near silent 7 litre six cylinder cars rather than single cylinder cars. And earning the title bestowed on them by The Times as the best car in the world. (A highly aurguable accolade, of course. The Times was not exactly cosmopolitan in outlook.)

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#40 dbw

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 18:14

well...the dewar was based as i recall on parts interchangibility...a rather modern automotive concept no?...while i can't compare henry leland to the RR folks i do know that cadillac went on to produce a production V8 in 1914 that was the ancestor of cad V8's in continous production to today's northstar....indeed ,at least in the states, cadillac became the "rolls royce" of cars.;)

#41 VAR1016

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 18:36

Originally posted by corniche
Thanks Mr. Anderson & to all who posted. The engine definitely had a 180 degree crank – that’s a matter of record. However, the “Legalimit” (a car made not to go above 20 mph) and it’s horse-carriage looking kin (the “Invisible” with the engine hidden under the driver of the carriage), with horse-carriage looking cars going out of fashion, these elements held a dark fait over these cars more than anything else. But as it turns out, it was a board decision to produce one model – so the V8, the 4 cylinder (which was wining races) – all were discontinued so the company can produce only the 40/50 h.p. “Silver Ghost”. There are reports of issues with the V8’s cylinder heads, but all accounts were that it ran smoothly (which makes sense at the speeds it would have been running.) In the December 2, 1905 Autocar, they took the landaulet version (an “Invisible”) out for a test drive and reported: “It appears to us to be quite an ideal town carriage, as smooth-running as an electric vehicle, and almost as quiet.” And “The car would run in perfect smoothness behind a crawling cab on the top speed, and then, with a touch of the throttle, make for an opening in the traffic…” I'm not clear on how to upload images... will have to figure that one out...
Best to all!


Yes I agree (indeed I previously wrote!) that at the likely engine speeds employed by R-R in the Legalimit, balance problems were probably not a factor - and of course it was anyway likely to be very smooth in comparison with other cars of the time givem R-R's craftsmanship and attention to detail - even the original 2-cylinder was praised at the time for its smoothness.

As for the bodywork, criticised above, well a matter of fashion I suggest - and anyway, R-R didn't build bodies until after the second world war. The Mercedes alluded to was probably the Canstatt Daimler which dated I think from 1901, front radiator, four cylinders, gate change gearbox etc.

Meanwhile more recently, Ferrari seems to have no trouble with its 180-degree-crank V8 engines running at up to 8,800 rpm! (F355, F360 etc.) although it is noteworthy that when Lancia built the Thema 8.32, the Ferrari-based V8 was fitted with a 90-degree crankshaft.

PdeRL

#42 corniche

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 19:37

Very interesting point about the Ferrari 180-degree-crank V8 engines!...

Also - absolutely right about coachwork - R-R did not make a full car until after WWII, only chassis! (Even then, the Silver Wraith was made as a chassis for coachwork.) But, the Legalimit and the Invisible chassis were different to the extent that all the dash, throttle, and steering components were different because of their placement - the Legalimit, like a modern car, had a hood - but the Invisible was made to only have carriage bodies, so the all the above items were placed above the engine - so the actual chassis were different (you could not use an Invisible's chassis for a Legalimit's coachwork.)

The Cadillac has an all-important place in auto history!! ~ all through the century to today. I've always loved the V16's of the classic era! - and, if anyone has seen the experimental "Sixteen" - if Cadillac would make that one, they would stand a very good chance of ruling the super-car market! - a very handsome car indeed! See: http://images.google...images&ct=title

#43 VAR1016

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 20:13

Thanks for the the link Corniche; what an amazing thing (goes OT again - sorry).

Did it work, and I wonder whatever must it have cost GM to produce?

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#44 corniche

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 22:09

Yes, it does work - so I'm told - I saw it at the 2003 Detroit Auto Show. I also saw the new Phantom there too. The Phantom looks far better in the flesh than it does in pictures (and is GREAT to drive). This Cadillac, however, looks great in pictures and will blow you away in person - it is just that good. I'm told that the 1,000 horsepower 16 cylinder engine it has ripped apart the transmission it was hooked up to in the test vehicle. The fit and finish is everything you would expect from an ultra luxury automobile. Cost? Had to be a few MM's - and there was gossip that Cadillac was looking into making it (but that sort of buzz is always leaked.) They should do it - it's too beautiful not to make. (Side note: what's "OT"? - I'm not that sharp on those...)

An extra word on the subject of the thread - before I get too far off track - beyond the aforementioned differences between the two V8 R-R chassis, the "Invisible" had a square structural extension above the engine where the coachwork for the driver would be placed - that structural extension was (obviously) not necessary on the Legalimit, which would just have had a standard hood that would extend down to the chassis proper. So this is another important difference between the two models.

#45 corniche

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 23:46

Here's a try to show a drawing of an Invisible & a photo of the chassis of an Invisible

This is a photo of the chassis of an "Invisible" car with it's V8 (note the structure above the engine to structurally support the body to be placed as below.)

http://img230.images...72dpilr19nz.jpg

This is a drawing of the "Landaulette par Excellence" version of the V8 powered "Invisible" Rolls-Royce, from the 1906 catalogue (no photo exists).

http://img144.images...72dpilr12da.jpg

Have you seen this car - the real car - in a photo? There was at least one made, as there are reports of C.S. Rolls having one for perusal by the press at the Olympia show and one was put on a tour of the U.K. in an inspection tour, visiting customers, looking at their cars and in providing service, gaining info. for the factory of the product's performance...

If you think you have seen this car in a photo, post it!

Best to all!