220 replies to this topic

[Richard Jenkins]

With former Paris-Dakar competitor Mark Thatcher becoming Sir Mark Thatcher after the death of his father, I've wondering just how many titled drivers at any level motorsport has had/has now - there are three GP knights & numerous Barons, Princes & further back, Lords etc. that I can think of but I'm guessing that for some countries, their highest award would allow the recipient to be titled in some way?
I wonder if motorsport, often overlooked at Queen's honours in the UK has less than 100 Sirs, Lords & even Royalty in it's ranks through the years... Am I wrong?

I'd also like to know how many "titles" were awarded due to family history & how many for feats of accomplishment. Thatcher Jr was only ever going to get one by family, after all.....

Over to you guys..

(I have a feeling that something akin to this thread has appeared before but blow me if I can remember what it was called but feel free to merge this with the old one if this isn't a "new" thread..)

[BorderReiver]

Do official order count? Like MBE's and OBE's and other countries equivalents? In which case there are loads.

But off the top of my head.

Prince Birabongse Bhanuban
Sir Stirling Moss
Sir John Young Stewart
The Earl of Dumfries (Johnny Dumfries)
Count Gastone Brilli-Peri
Count Eliot Zborowski
Count Louis Zborowski

tons more. . . .

[Rob G]

Earl Howe
Count Wolfgang von Trips
Count Carel Godin de Beaufort
Marquis Antonio Brivio
Marquis Alfonso de Portago
Prince Gaetano Starrabba
Count Erno Festetics

[VAR1016]

And the Marquis de Portago and The Earl Howe - Baron Toulo de Graffenreid.

Graf Wolfgang von Trips, Carel de Beaufort.

PdeRL

[D-Type]

Sir Henry Segrave
Sir Malcolm Campbell
Sir Jack Brabham
Sir Frank Williams

Count Carel Godin de Beaufort (Ithink he was a count)
Sir Henry Birkin Bt
The Honourable Mrs Chetwynd (MG, Le Mans 1931)
Lord de Clifford (Lagonda, Le Mans 1934)
Sir Donald R Gunter Bt (Lagonda Le Mans 1935)
Lord Douglas Hamilton (Aston Martin, Le Mans 1935)
Earl Howe
Prince Nicholas of Rumania (Duesenberg, Le Mans 1933,1935)
Marquis Alfonse (Fon) de Portago
Lord Selsdon of Croydon
Prince von Schaumburg-Lippe (BMW, Le Mans 1939)
Lord Waleran (Lagonda, Le Mans 1939)
Graf Wolfgang von Trips (Is his title Count or Graf?)

[Alan Lewis]

The Hon. Brian Lewis (later Lord Essendon?)
Freddie March (later the Duke of Richmond and Gordon)
The Hon. Charles S. Rolls
Sir John Whitmore Bt
Le Chevalier Rene de Knyff
Jorge Bragation (Georgian royalty)
Alfonso (?) Orleans-de Bourbon (FIA Sportscar Championship, related to King Juan Carlos?)

APL

[Vitesse2]

Lord Avebury
Marquis de Belleroche

On the subject of Lord Avebury, does anyone know if the Lord Avebury who raced in the 30s was the 2nd or 3rd Baron and what his first name was? His surname would be Lubbock: the first Baron Avebury was the former Sir John Lubbock and the current (fourth) Baron Avebury was formerly the Orpington MP Eric Lubbock. There are endless references on the net to the first and fourth Barons, but none I can find to the second or third! I suspect it might be the third Baron, who died in 1971 - my local library's reference section doesn't possess "Who Was Who", which would tell me instantly! Any info gratefully received ....

[mp4]

Derek Bell OBE.
I remember seeing this on the side of his Rothmans Porsche 962.

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
With former Paris-Dakar competitor Mark Thatcher becoming Sir Mark Thatcher after the death of his father, ..

Please tell me you are kidding here !

[VAR1016]

I do not think that it is quite correct to include those who were honoured or enobled subsequent to theiir careers - e.g. Sir Stilring Moss.

However I would ask for the inclusion of 1960s English racing driver Roy Pierpoint in this august company.

No title as far as I am aware, but the fact that he came from Hurstpierpoint in Sussex does add a certain discreet cachet to the name don't you think?

By the way, did not Le Comte de Dion not compete in one of the cars bearing his name in the earliest days of motoring?

PdeRL

[Criceto]

Nope - totally correct. Sir Denis Thatcher was a Baronet, so it is now Sir Mark Thatcher, bt.

The ",bt" is important. That denotes the hereditary title rather than an "earned" knighthood.

Sir John Whitmore is a racing Baronet, among others.

[Ron Scoma]

Sir John Whitmore
Lord Ecclestone of Cash

Ron Scoma

[Ron Scoma]

Baron d'Erlanger.

There is a pretty strong connection between the d'Erlanger family and the USA, they donated a hospital in Memphis.
Also Bebe d'Erlanger was quite the socialite between the wars. I'm not sure of the family tree as that is in my "future to do" file.

Ron Scoma

[mickj]

Sir Gawaine Ballie.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Lord Avebury
Marquis de Belleroche

On the subject of Lord Avebury, does anyone know if the Lord Avebury who raced in the 30s was the 2nd or 3rd Baron and what his first name was? His surname would be Lubbock: the first Baron Avebury was the former Sir John Lubbock and the current (fourth) Baron Avebury was formerly the Orpington MP Eric Lubbock. There are endless references on the net to the first and fourth Barons, but none I can find to the second or third! I suspect it might be the third Baron, who died in 1971 - my local library's reference section doesn't possess "Who Was Who", which would tell me instantly! Any info gratefully received ....

Sir John Lubbock, born 1915, succeeded 1929 as 3rd Baron Avebury

[Uwe]

Originally posted by D-Type
Graf Wolfgang von Trips (Is his title Count or Graf?)

His full name was Wolfgang Graf Berghe von Trips.

Graf is german for count.
What I read in my dictionary is that there is a non-british 'count' but a british 'earl'. Could someone explain to me if 'count' as title is existing in UK and which are the other differences between earl and count? Confusing...

Uwe

[bill moffat]

Former British Hill Climb champion Sir Nick Williamson.

[2F-001]

Prince Leopold von Bayern? (former DTM driver).

[Ron Scoma]

Count Volpi of the Volpini fame
Count "Johnny" Lurani

Ron Scoma

[917]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Prince Leopold von Bayern? (former DTM driver).

Yes, his Bavarian nickname is "Poldi", he celebrated his 60th birthday last Saturday and his co-driver at the last Mille Miglia Storica was King Carl Gustav of Sweden.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Uwe

What I read in my dictionary is that there is a non-british 'count' but a british 'earl'. Could someone explain to me if 'count' as title is existing in UK and which are the other differences between earl and count? Confusing...
Uwe

It certainly is confusing, especially trying to compare titles between countries
In the UK, as I understand it, after royal princes and dukes the rankings of peerage are:
Duke
Marquis
Earl
Viscount
Baron
followed by Baronet (hereditary, but not peerage)
Knight (not hereditary)
the last two both being known as, eg, Sir Stirling Moss
To confuse matters further, many of the most senior peers have more than one title, and it is customary for one of these to be used by the heir. Thus the heir to the Duke of Richmond and Gordon is styled Earl of March (and his son Baron Settringham)
Any peer can be referred to as Lord, though this becomes less likely higher up the ladder you are
Some sons of (IIRC) earls and above are also styled Lord, though often Lord Forename Surname, and daughters are Lady Forename Surname (which is why it is incorrect to refer to the wife of a knight as eg Lady Susie Moss. She is Susie, Lady Moss). The names of other sons of high-ranking peers are preceded by 'Hon'
There is no title of 'count' in Britain, though the term is used for Continental nobles with similar titles (eg Graf)
And that's only a rough sketch

[Roger Clark]

Come the Glorious Day....

[Haddock]

Come the Glorious Day....

....... I'll join the grave dancer's union.....

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by David McKinney


Sir John Lubbock, born 1915, succeeded 1929 as 3rd Baron Avebury

Thanks David

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


Over to you guys..

(I have a feeling that something akin to this thread has appeared before but blow me if I can remember what it was called but feel free to merge this with the old one if this isn't a "new" thread..)

The Hon. Brian Lewis acquired another title later on didn't he?

[Frank de Jong]

Freiherr Karl von Wendt
Jonkheer Gijs van Lennep

[917]

The German Freiherr seems to be the equivalent of the British Baronet, so we can add Manfred von Brauchitsch and Huschke von Hanstein. But what about academic titles? There we have for example Dr Nino Farina or Dr. jur. (Doctor of Laws) Helmut Marko...

[Rainer Nyberg]

Hans Stuck jr von der Zugspitze

[Wolf]

I'm astonished noone has mentioned (admittedly, I may have overlooked while skimming through the posts). Sir Jack Brabham. And the is British 'gentry', despite being Aussie, right?

[Ren� de Boer]

In the German club racing scene, there are three counts in one team:

Markus Graf von Oeynhausen
Franz Graf zu Ortenburg
Christian Graf von Wedel

They are regular competitors in the Langstreckenpokal endurance race series at the Nürburgring-Nordschleife and the 24-hour race, while I believe that Graf Ortenburg is also doing some historic racing with a Jaguar E-Type. More information can be found on their website at www.3grafen.de

Also more or less in club racing is Fürst Albert von Thurn und Taxis, who raced in the ADAC Volkswagen Lupo Cup in 2001 and 2002 and is racing in the Trofeo Vodafone Maserati this season. Because he is 21, some people in Germany call him "the youngest gentlemen racer ever".

A certain Ranatkol Prutirat from Thailand, the 40th heir to the national throne, is racing in the German DTC saloon car series. He formerly competed in the FIA GT-championship and even once tried his luck in the DTM (ITC), driving a Mercedes in 1996. But after finding out in free practice at Diepholz that he was way to slow, he called it a day there and then.

In Belgium, the current King Albert once took part in the 24-hour race for Citroën 2CVs at Spa-Francorchamps with the most appropriate sponsor one can think of, a certain type of biscuit called "Prince de Beukelaer", or "Prinzenrolle" in German.

In The Netherlands, we had Baron Arthur van Dedem and jonkheer Ernst Berg racing touring cars.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Wolf
I'm astonished noone has mentioned (admittedly, I may have overlooked while skimming through the posts). Sir Jack Brabham. And the is British 'gentry', despite being Aussie, right?

Well Sir Jack was knighted after his racing career; I believe that the idea is to list those who already had titles whilst raciing.

As for the Hon. Brian Lewis, in England, the title "Hon," is short for "Honourable". This tital is known as a "courtesy title" and relates to sons and daughters of hereditary peers. The Hon. Brian Lewis would possibly have inherited a title; it would depend upon whether or not he was the eldest son and therefore in line to inherit.

The eldest son of a baron (the lowest rank in the British peerage" would be known as "The Honourable xxx. xxx". If his/her father were a Viscount ( the next rank) or higher (Earl, Marquess, Duke) then the eldest son would be "Lord xxx xxxx" or "Lady xxx xxxx" whilst his or her siblings would be "Hons". In England, "Marquis" is usually a courtesy title for the eldest son of a Duke, whilst "Marquess" is a rank of the peerage in its own right.

Sons and daughters of baronets (i.e. hereditary knights) receive no courtesy title.

PdeRL

[Vitesse2]

Count Carlo Felice Trossi
The Hon Peter Aitken

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Haddock


....... I'll join the grave dancer's union.....

Not me; long live the hereditary peerage.

PdeRL

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by mp4
Derek Bell OBE.
I remember seeing this on the side of his Rothmans Porsche 962.

Living proof that OBE doesn't always stand for "Other Blokes' Efforts"

Oh, and the Marquis de Belleroche was Welsh, although it's a French title!

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by VAR1016


Well Sir Jack was knighted after his racing career; I believe that the idea is to list those who already had titles whilst raciing.

Largely, but I was also interested in those who like Brabham, Stewart & Moss (and others mentioned already) were knighted for accomplishments (motorsport or not) as well..

[David McKinney]

Sir Jack has of course done a bit of racing since he retired from F1, so he makes the list on any count

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


Largely, but I was also interested in those who like Brabham, Stewart & Moss (and others mentioned already) were knighted for accomplishments (motorsport or not) as well..

Yes, I believe that Chris Nixon in "Mon ami mate" questioned why Mike Hawthorn, as Britain's first world champion received nothing in the 1959 New Year Honours.

PdeRL

[Wolf]

Originally posted by VAR1016


Yes, I believe that Chris Nixon in "Mon ami mate" questioned why Mike Hawthorn, as Britain's first world champion received nothing in the 1959 New Year Honours.

PdeRL

Don't know VAR1016, but Moss had to wait almost until the turn of millenium to recieve kis knighthood, being winner of 10 BRDC Gold Stars and arguably the best English, if not British, GP driver, so not recieving it one year after winning a WDC is not that surprising...

[Magee]

Was Lord Montagu of Beaulieu a driver as well as an author?

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Wolf


Don't know VAR1016, but Moss had to wait almost until the turn of millenium to recieve kis knighthood, being winner of 10 BRDC Gold Stars and arguably the best English, if not British, GP driver, so not recieving it one year after winning a WDC is not that surprising...

I'd have to look this up, but I believe that Moss received an award at that time - an MBE I think - which makes it all look like a deliberate snub to Hawthorn; perhaps he had upset someone with his pranks?

PdeRL

[Bladrian]

Does Commendatore Michael Schumacher count?

[David McKinney]

Here are a couple more names. The list is by no means onclusive, most are from older times, and some may already have been listed. Some titles are given in their own languages, others in English, and others will be in an incorrect language altogether.
The names are grouped in some sort of ranking, but this will not be completely accurate either

* means raced under two titles

King Hussein of Jordan

Prince Bertrand de Cystria
Louis Jérome Victor Emanuel Léopold Marie, Prince Napoléon
Prince Igor Troubetskoy
Prince Dmitrij Djordjadze
Prince Nicholas of Romania
Prince Georg Christian Lobkowicz, Duke of Raudnitz, Princely Count of Sternstein
Prince Antoine von Esterházy zu Galántha
Domenico-Ruggero Rosso, 12th principe di Cerami, barone della Torre e Medola etc
il Principe Gaetano Starrabba di Giardinelli
Prince G F Hohenlöhe
Prince of Hohenlöhe-Bartenstein
Prinz Alfons Maximilian Victor Eugen Alexander Maria Paul de la Santissima Trinidad y todos los Santos zu Hohenlöhe-Langenburg
Hermann Victor Maximilian 6er Prinz zu Leiningen, Count Palatine of Mosbach, Count of Dürn, Lord of Amorbach etc
Prinz Ferdinand Andreas Josef Maria von Liechtenstein,
Prinz Heinrich Reuß XXXlX OR Prinz Heinrich Reuß zu Schleiz XLV
Prinz Wilhelm Eugen Georg Constantin Maximilian zu Schaumburg-Lippe
Prince Wilhelm Werner von Sayn-Wittgenstein (“Werner Lindermann”)
Prince Narischkine

Herzog Ludwig Wilhelm Karl Norbert Theodor Johann im Bayern

Albrecht Maria Josef Leopold Ernst Georg, 5er Fürst zu Hohenlöhe-Jagtsberg
Ulrich-Ferdinand Adolf Antoine Bonaventura Maria, 10th Fürst Kinsky von Wchinitz und Tettau
Paul Alfons Maria Clemens Lothar Philippus Nevi Felix Nikodemes, 6er Fürst von Metternich-Winneburg, 5th Duca di Portella, Graf von Königswart, grandee of Spain

M

[David McKinney]

Don Pio Avati, Duke of San Pietro
John Charles William Fitzroy, 9th Duke of Grafton, Earl of Arlington, Earl of Euston, Viscount Ipswich, Baron Sudbury

Marquís de La Maire
Marchese Antonio Brivio Sforza
Marchese Cesar Carano ("Iris")
Marquis Gaston de Chasseloup-Laubat
Marquis Louis de Chasseloup-Laubat
Marquis de Auléncia
Dom Fernando Penalva Mascarenhas, Marques de Fronteira, Marques de Alorna, Conde da Torre, de Coculim and de Assumar
Antonio Vicente Blas Ángel Francisco Borgia Cabeza de Vaca y Leighton Carvajal y Are, Conde de Mejorada, 7th Marquis de Portago

Mark Everard Pepys, 6th Earl of Cottenham
William Rudolph Stephen Feilding, 11th Earl of Denbigh, 8th Earl of Desmond
John Colum Crichton-Stuart, Earl of Dumfries (later Marquis of Bute)
Francis Richard Henry Penn Curzon, 5th Earl Howe*
Frederick Charles Fordon-Lennox, Earl of March (later 9th Duke of Richmond, Baron Settringham, 9th Duke of Lennox, Earl of Darnley, Baron Torbolton, 4th Duke of Gordon and Earl of Kinrara, Duke d'Aubigny

Viscount Francis Richard Henry Penn Curzon* (later Earl Howe)
Viscount William Rudolph Michael (Rollo) Feilding (later 11th Earl of Denbigh, 9th Earl of Desmond)
-- Montagu, Viscount Mandeville

Freiherr Alexander Heinrich Ludwig Richard von Falkenhausen
Freiherr Ernst von Halle
Freiherr Alfred Michel-Raulino
Freiherr von Treutschler
Freiherr von Trutzschler-Falkenstein

[David McKinney]

Baron Philippe Georges de Rothschild ("Georges Philippe")
Baron Emmanuel Leo Ludwig von (later de) Graffenried
Baron Pierre de Caters
Baron Charles Victor Raymond André Evance de Tornaco
Baron Raymond de Tornaco
Barone Francesco Ciuppa
Barone Diego de Sterlich
Barone Bruno Sterzi
Sir John Lubbock, 3rd Baron Avebury
Angus Alan Douglas Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Clydesdale (later 15th Duke of Hamilton, Marquis of Douglas and Clydesdale, Earl of Angus, Arran and Lanark, Lord Avon, Polmont, Machanshire etc, 12th Duke of Brandon, Baron of Dutton)
Baron Leo d'Erlanger
Baron Maurice Arnold de Forest Bischoffsheim,
-- Plunkett, Lord Louth
Patrick William Malcolm (Peter) Mitchell-Thomson, 3rd Baron Selsdon*
William George Hood Walrand, 2nd Baron Waleran

Graf Engelbert Arco-Zinneberg
Graf Max Arco-Zinneberg
Graf Philipp-Constantin Eduard Siegmund Clemens Tassilo Tobias (‘Tim’) von Berckheim
Sten Graf Bielke
Graf Hugo Boos-Waldeck
Graf Hubertus von Dönhoff
Graf Wittigo Johann-Georg von Einsiedel
Gräfin Margot von Einsiedel
Graf von Hagenburg
Fritz Graf Huschke von Hanstein
Graf Max zu Hardegg von Settenberg
Graf Eckard Natango Friederich Ernst Egon von Kalnein
Graf Carl-Léon von der Mühle-Eckart
Graf Adam Orssich de Slavetich
Graf Oynhauser-Sierstorpf
Graf Maria Hugo-Damian Adelbert Josefus Hubertus von Schörnborn
Wolfgang Alexander Graf Berghe von Trips
Graf Rudi de Waldthausen
Graf Ernst Günther von Wentzel-Mosau

Comte Charles de Beaufort
Comte Georges d'Arnoux
Count Jacques de Wurstemberger
Comte d'Hendecourt
Count Innocente Baggio
Conte Carlo Biscaretti di Ruffo
Conte Giovanni Bonmartini
Conte Gastone Brilli-Peri
Conte Carlo Castelbarco
Conte Luigi Castelbarco
Conte Carlo Alberto Conelli
Conte Franz Conelli
Conte Giacomo Dusmet
Conte Vincenzo Florio
Conte Gian Oberto Gubinelli
Conte Filippo Hercolani
Don Giovanni Lurani Cernuschi, Conte di Calvenzano Patrizio Milanese
Conte Aymo Maggi
Conte Carlo Masetti
Conte Giulio Masetti
Contessa Vittoria Orsini
Conte Emilio Orti Marana
Conte Francesco Sirignano
Conte Carlo Felice Trossi
Count Stanislas Czaykowski
Countess Marie-Luise Kozmian
Count Stefan Ouvaroff
Count Maurice Potocki
Count William Elliott Morris Zborowski
Count Louis Vorov Zborowski
Count Benno Festetics von Tolna
Count Aleksandr Kolowrat
Count Tivadar Zichy
Dom Jorge Cardoso Pereira da Silva de Melo e Faro, Conde de Monte Real

[David McKinney]

Sir George Abercromby Bt
Sir Hickman Bacon Bt
Sir Gawaine Baillie Bt
Sir Henry Ralph Stanley (Tim) Birkin Bt
Sir John Bowen Bt
Sir John Michael Dillwyn-Venables-Llewelyn Bt
Sir Ralph St George Claude Gore Bt
Sir Algernon Arthur St Lawrence Guinness Bt
Sir Ronald Vernon Gunter Bt
Sir Alastair MacRobert Bt
Sir Leslie Lionel Marr Bt
Sir Francis Henry Bernard Samuelson Bt
Sir James Louis Fitzroy Scott-Douglas Bt
Sir John Henry Douglas Whitmore Bt

Sir Malcolm Campbell
Sir Henry O'Neale De Hane Segrave

P de Monès-Maury (later Marquis de Casa Maury)
Robin Carnegie (later Earl of Northesk)
Hon E H B (Eddie) Portman (later 9th Viscount Portman)
John Clotworthy Talbot Foster Whyte-Melville Skeffington (later Viscount Massereene and 6th Viscount Ferrard)
Hon John William Maxwell Aitken (later second Baron Beaverbrook)
Hon John Walter Edward Douglas-Scott-Montagu (later 2nd Baron Montagu of Beaulieu)
Hon Brian Edmund Lewis (later 2nd Baron Essendon)
Hon Peter Mitchell-Thomson* (later Baron Selsdon)
Hon Peter Rudyard Aitken
Hon Edward George Greenall
Hon Patrick Lindsay
Hon Charles Stewart Rolls
Hon Amschel Mayor James Rothschild
Hon D N Weir

[anjakub]

Titled drivers from Poland:
Franciszek hrabia Mycielski
Albert hrabia Suminski
Adam hrabia Potocki
Maurycy hrabia Potocki
hrabia = Count

[RTH]

Anyone tell me anything about Prince Nicholas Von Preusen, of the Prussian Royal family who drove British F3 in the early 70's and lived at the family home of Patmore Hall in Herts -- less than a mile from where I am sitting right now.

[David Beard]

I'm sure I can't really have thought of one that isn't in D.McK's extensive list..but here goes:

Count Stephen Ouvaroff

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Sir Leslie Lionel Marr Bt

David,
Firstly, thanks for a stunning comprehensive list!!

Secondly, Is this man any relation to the former Grand Prix driver, Leslie (Lynn) Marr?

[917]

David,
fascinating list! Though I think that you know nobility better than I, AFAIK Huschke von Hanstein was a Baron and not a Graf (Count). And it is Hohenlohe and not Hohenlöhe, but ä - ö - ü are not less confusing than the rules of British peerage.

By the way:
It knocks at the door of the hostel. The landlord shouts: "Who is there?"
Answer: "Frederick Charles Fordon-Lennox, Earl of March, Duke of Richmond, Baron Settringham, Duke of Lennox, Earl of Darnley, Baron Torbolton, Duke of Gordon and Earl of Kinrara, Duke d'Aubigny". Landlord: "Come all in!"