68 replies to this topic

[MCS]

Could anybody point me in the right direction ?

(Apologies if there's already something in TNF, but I couldn't find it - and I'm new anyway, so hopefully I'll be let off this time at least...)

MCS

[Gary C]

what do you want them for?? I have a collection, including some Formula 2 stuff

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by MCS
Could anybody point me in the right direction ?

(Apologies if there's already something in TNF, but I couldn't find it - and I'm new anyway, so hopefully I'll be let off this time at least...)

MCS

Hey MCS, nice to have you with us!

As for Crystal Palace pics I'm afraid I'm not going to be much use. . . .

[MCS]

Gary C

First saw Crystal Palace on tv as a boy - thought it was fantastic.

Been and seen whenever in the area since - bit depressing now though.

Did you see the "best film bit" from the Italian Job recently - some Best British Movie Award...?

MCS

[LittleChris]

If you're not aware of GPL here's your chance to simulate driving CP.

http://gplea.racesimcentral.com/

The Phillip Parfitt book is good, plus there are pics on the web. It's just a matter of finding them. I think there might actually be some on TNF so use the search facility

[WGD706]

Not much, but here's a few from 1970 Non-Championship F2 Race,London Trophy, Crystal Palace
May 25th, 1970...
http://www.motorraci...ro70crystal.htm

1972 European F2 Championship, Round 5, London Trophy, Crystal Palace
Round 4 John Player F2 Championship, May 29th, 1972
http://www.motorraci...ro72crystal.htm

[WGD706]

Go to http://www.sutton-images.com/
Click on 'History' on the left
Type in 'Crystal Palace' in the search box, you'll get 20 photos from various years. Make sure it's typed 'Crystal Palace' and not with small letters.

[Reyna]

Hola !!!

I have nearly 100 pics of the Crystal Palace F2 races. You can send me a message.

Rafa

[Barry Boor]

You will find a few fairly uninspiring ones on this page of my Images site:

http://members.atlas..._boor/three.htm

I have quite a few slides taken at one of the F2 races there, but having scanned them, I didn't feel they were good enough to put onto the Net. Maybe I'll have another look at them!

[Ray Bell]

Somewhere I have the video of that Gerry Marshall vs Escort and Camaro race... can't remember the names, but this was all discussed a while back... check out Gerry Marshall in 'search'...

[275 GTB-4]

Try
http://www.ten-tenth...=crystal palace

there also many other references to be found on (hushed tones ...ten tenths)

[HistoricMustang]

Wanted to revive this older converstion to add a site I came upon while searching for a unique circuit (more on that later).

Cheers!

Henry

http://gplea.rscsite...o/cpretro2.html

[Gerald Swan]

Here's some I took:

1969 http://f3history.co....s/cp69/cp69.htm
1970 http://f3history.co....s/cp70/cp70.htm
1971 http://f3history.co....s/cp71/cp71.htm

Gerald.

Lola Heritage

[taylov]

I attended almost all the CP races through the 1960s - bikes as well as cars. I know there are photos in the "archive" -a posh word for piles of junk. Please send me a PM and let me know what you are after.

I also have a set of photos taken at the Palace in 1938 and 1939 if your search goes back that far.

Tony

[Alan Cox]

Some news for those with an interest in Crystal Palace

LONDON'S OWN CIRCUIT TO HOST MOTOR SPORT AGAIN

Crystal Palace Park will again roar with the sound of historic racing cars in 2010 - that is the plan of Sevenoaks and District Motor Club. "The plans are all in place and we are ready to go; we now need to raise the funds to pay for repair work to the track surface and the building of safety barriers," said a spokesman for the club.

SDMC last ran a series of successful events at the venue in the late 1990s, but had to stop in 2000 to make way for a London Borough of Bromley millennium project. In 2006, they were approached by the London Development Agency to once again run motor sport in the park. The date for the first event is 30/31 May 2010.

The plans for the event are to make it a very special day out for the family in the heart of South London, taking the park back to its
heritage while supporting two local charities. The two-day event will include a sprint competition for both historic and modern racing cars, including classes for alternative fuel and electric vehicles, an old-style wall of death show, static displays (including the AA Heritage Collection), retail stands, hospitality and something very special for the kids.

In order to allow the event to take place, funding is required to repair one section of the track and to install safety barriers in other areas. The organisers are therefore seeking sponsorship.

A colour brochure - detailing the planned event plus a history of motor sport at the Palace - is available from http://www.motorsportatthepalace.co.uk.
Colin Billings
Mob: 07770 301675
Tel: 01732 847440
Email: cbtradinguk@aol.com

[sterling49]

This is fantastic news, I will pop in next time I am in the area, I missed going back in the day, much to my annoyance I will also check with my mates at 7 Oaks M.C. I have a fantastic book on racing at Crystal Palace, bought in an Antique bookshop in Stamford, it contains such emotive photographs

[Gregor Marshall]

I can't see on the website anything about the repairs and I did see this website about 2 months ago and e-mailed them but never had a response.
I was lucky (some might think unlucky!!) enough to go in '99 when (there's a good interview with my late father on youtube) there was the sprint and then to be taken round what remained of the track at great speed with running commentry, including expletives when a "new" wall seemd to be in the middle of where the track had been!!

[Barry Boor]

This is a wonderful idea.... and I for one will be there if it should ever happen, which I somehow doubt.

As many other Google Earthers will know the circuit from North Tower Crescent right round to just before South Tower Corner is still there, seemingly unchanged but the old start/finish straight is, for most of its length, no more. It re-appears about 70 yards before the left curve at North Tower.

I can't see the GLC or whatever they call themselves these days, allowing a new piece of road to be constructed just for the sake of a few old racing cars.

Then again, looking at it further, although South Tower Corner is gone, there is a piece of road that runs more or less where the old straight was, from the vicinity of South Tower and the gap from where that turns right to the existing piece of track before NTC is only a couple of hundred yards, so maybe it IS possible after all.

We can only hope.

[Rob29]

Don't think actual racing is planned Barry,only a sprint on the course last used around 10 years ago and 'fun for the kids' etc

[Barry Boor]

I never expected racing... but would have liked the idea of the whole track being available.

Kids??? Oh no!

[Alan Cox]

...... and 'fun for the kids' etc

Doesn't this prospect just make the blood of the averge motor sport enthusiast run cold?

PS Yes, before anyone thinks I'm serious, I do know that the bouncy castle syndrome is the only way this sort of event can ever hope to get off the ground

[alansart]

I paid a visit to the old place earlier this year.

These are the photos I took with the camera on my phone and posted at the time.

They've got a lot of work to do!

As seen on Google Earth with layout and corner names added:



The startline and pits circa 1971...


...a similar view 12.30pm 12/03/2009 (yesterday) - My apologies for the quality, these were taken with the camera on my mobile phone!


1971...


...2009


A view from towards the back of the grid. A short stretch has been grassed over.


Looking back towards the startline - the tarmac here looks like it could be all that's left from CP's racing days.


Heading towards North Tower.


North Tower in..


...North Tower out.


The Glade


Park Curve. This area was out of bounds for spectators. I never realised the houses were so close. No wonder there were complaints about the noise.


New Link.


Stadium straight. There is a little track by the blue boxes which I think maybe for radio controlled cars.


Stadium straight towards Ramp Bend. The Grandstand and offices now use part of the circuit.


Ramp Bend. I think the concrete wall on the left may have been around in racing days.


Anerley Ramp


Maxim Rise. The bridge from the station that went over the track has gone.


Finally heading into South Tower.

[F3Wrench]

Fantastic pictures Alan, much appreciated - and very saddening, I knew CP well back in '69 and '70. I regularly watch the infamous F3 race with Walker/Trimmer/Hunt/Morgan/thwack (thanks to AK), and I have a great affection for the old place. As you say, they have their work cut out to get the former circuit into any sort of shape for racing. I can't see it happening unless they move the stadium off the track !

I am a bit confused with one caption: you say that the view "Looking back towards the startline - the tarmac here looks like it could be all that's left from CP's racing days" which appears to have a field where the track once was, seems to be the same place as your first current picture which replicates the grid picture in the first 'old' picture? Bit confused where this 'field' is!

But thanks for all your efforts, at least I know what the old place looks like now and feel a bit gutted TBH.

John.

[alansart]

I am a bit confused with one caption: you say that the view "Looking back towards the startline - the tarmac here looks like it could be all that's left from CP's racing days" which appears to have a field where the track once was, seems to be the same place as your first current picture which replicates the grid picture in the first 'old' picture? Bit confused where this 'field' is!

The bit of track from the startline onwards for a couple of hundred yards has been filled in and grassed over. I've no idea why

[Alan Cox]

Thanks for those photos, Alan. Quality looked pretty good for a mobile phone, I thought.

Edited by Alan Cox, 12 August 2009 - 12:16.

[RTH]

Great set of pictures Alan, really tells the current story.

Other than some sort of slow motion parade ( and it will even mean a lot of expenditure for that ) This just is not going to happen is it ? Sadly !

I went to the last two meetings in 1972 and actuary drove a new Alfa Romeo in a convoy of the companies current products for 2 laps of the circuit in the 2nd to last meeting.

It was a great venue, at the time, safety was sighted as the reason for closure, no doubt unsilenced cars of the time was a major factor. I don't think realisically there is much hope anything competitive will ever happen there again.

Anyone got any disused airfields anywhere near them for new motor racing basic venues ?

[RTH]

Here is the "100 Great Sporting Moment" film of the 11. Sept 1971 Osram Saloon Car race round Crystal Palace with Gerry Marshall in The Vauxhall Viva GT vs a Camaro of Martin Thomas and Escort RS1600 of Mike Crabtree you see the track layout quite clearly



Then part 2 or the race

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Edited by RTH, 12 August 2009 - 11:53.

[alansart]

Great set of pictures Alan, really tells the current story.

I went to the last two meetings in 1972 and actuary drove a new Alfa Romeo in a convoy of the companies current products for 2 laps of the circuit in the 2nd to last meeting.

It was a great venue, at the time, safety was sighted as the reason for closure, no doubt unsilenced cars of the time was a major factor. I don't think realisically there is much hope anything competitive will ever happen there again.

I went to most meetings from 1969 until it closed. One of the few circuits I could get to easily on public transport.

I'm sure noise was an issue. I never realised how close the houses were to the track.

The surface at North Tower and the Glade isn't tarmac but some sort of hardcore. I'm not sure if it's possible to run race cars on it at any speed.

[RTH]

Palace circuit in 1964

http://www.youtube.c...k...=PL&index=8

[alansart]

Palace circuit in 1964

http://www.youtube.c...k...=PL&index=8

TNF'r Roydpg has posted a few of his films from CP as well.

http://www.youtube.c...=response_watch

[RTH]

TNF'r Roydpg has posted a few of his films from CP as well.

http://www.youtube.c...=response_watch

What brilliant films!

[F3Wrench]

"Anyone got any disused airfields anywhere near them for new motor racing basic venues ?"

Seeing as you asked RTH, check out Locking Airfield near Weston-Super-Mare:

http://maps.google.c...r...mp;t=k&z=14



Actually, part of it is still used by a helicopter company and there's a helicopter museum in the corner of the airfield, but it would still be a good basis for a sprint track. If Croft can do it...

Edited by F3Wrench, 12 August 2009 - 13:13.

[RTH]

Well, I really do feel now we are going to need some back to basics motorsport that can be afforded by competitors and spectators alike.

[Andrew Kitson]

Unfortunately RTH it is the cost of insurance for the circuits & organisers that pushes entry fees up. This modern H & S world we live in means even more expensive safety features. I doubt you could get a 'cheap' venue these days.
Suprisingly, a lot of meetings this year have higher spectator numbers than seen for a long time. Perhaps 'local' people are looking for days out nearby, rather than foreign holidays etc.

[bradbury west]

Seeing as you asked RTH, check out Locking Airfield near Weston-Super-Mare:

The last I heard, but I may be wrong, there were imminent plans for houses there.
Roger Lund

[Robin Fairservice]

I don't think that the occupants of the houses next to the Glade complained too much about noise. I remember flagging through there in the 1950's and 1960's, and everyone seem to be standing at the bottomof their gardens having a free show.

[Leigh Trevail]

I don't think that the occupants of the houses next to the Glade complained too much about noise. I remember flagging through there in the 1950's and 1960's, and everyone seem to be standing at the bottomof their gardens having a free show.

That was then, this is now!

[RAP]

I don't think that the occupants of the houses next to the Glade complained too much about noise. I remember flagging through there in the 1950's and 1960's, and everyone seem to be standing at the bottomof their gardens having a free show.

Crystal Palace had major noise problems when it reopened in 1953, resulting in a court injunction limiting racing to 6 days per year and no Sundays. Although the injunction lapsed in 1969 and, amazingly was not renewed, allowing somewhat greater use in the final years, the lack of Sunday racing was a major factor in he track's closing. Saturday races never made money, only the 3 bank holiday dates. The track was of course owned by the Greater London Council and they were not inclined to subsidise motor racing. Even with more Saurday races therefore, the finances simply didnt support the track work necessary to meet increasing safety standards.
See my book "A Record of Motor Racing at Crystal Palace" for the numbers and full details fro the GLC archives.
Richard Page

[RTH]

Unfortunately RTH it is the cost of insurance for the circuits & organisers that pushes entry fees up. This modern H & S world we live in means even more expensive safety features. I doubt you could get a 'cheap' venue these days.
Suprisingly, a lot of meetings this year have higher spectator numbers than seen for a long time. Perhaps 'local' people are looking for days out nearby, rather than foreign holidays etc.

There surely has to be some way of mitigating some of this madness with a bit of lateral thinking. Closed to the public events, members only, who have signed disclaimers against anyone in the event of any injury?

I know just recently a spectator was killed at a historic rally in open countryside, but rally spectators for some inexplicable reason will stand in the path of where cars are quite likely to end up, reckless stupidity has blighted rallying for decades.

I do wonder just how many insurance payouts there have been for killed or even injured spectators at motor race circuits in the last 25 years in Britain. Not saying it is impossible but can anyone even remember one where a car has gone in to the crowd in recent times with fatal consequences ?

[Rob29]

There surely has to be some way of mitigating some of this madness with a bit of lateral thinking. Closed to the public events, members only, who have signed disclaimers against anyone in the event of any injury?

I know just recently a spectator was killed at a historic rally in open countryside, but rally spectators for some inexplicable reason will stand in the path of where cars are quite likely to end up, reckless stupidity has blighted rallying for decades.

I do wonder just how many insurance payouts there have been for killed or even injured spectators at motor race circuits in the last 25 years in Britain. Not saying it is impossible but can anyone even remember one where a car has gone in to the crowd in recent times with fatal consequences ?

Not a car,but the only fatal incident in the past 100 years,was at Castle Combe a few years ago,when a wheel hit a guy aparently standing with his back to the action.As a result that circuit now has debris fences which it did not have when I was last there.

[Andrew Kitson]

Not circuit racing as such, but there was an elderly gentleman killed at Santa Pod Raceway a couple of years ago when a dragster's engine blew at the top end and he was hit by debris, whilst standing on the spectator bank.

[john winfield]

Great pictures, Alan, and as John adds, rather saddening. I suppose the dinosaurs are still there, lurking in the bushes.

Anyway, I was just leafing through a hardback copy of Graham Hill's 'Life at the Limit' which, opposite page 145, has David Phipps' photo of GH watching the detached wheel of his F2 Lotus overtake him up Maxim Rise on the way to South Tower. I assume it's Maxim Rise as I can see a bit of bridge, presumably the now dismantled station bridge referred to in Alan's photo notes.

Vitesse has already mentioned that the Lotus wheel in question had a chance encounter with Mr. B. Boor. I'd love to know more. Barry, were you spectating that day, marshalling or just collecting wheels? How did you manage to 'borrow' it without anyone noticing and do you still own it? Just curious. OK, nosy.

[Barry Boor]

The story has been chronicled before but it is far more mundane than anything suggested above.

When Peter Connew was working at Team Surtees, he had occasion to visit the Firestone factory in west London. He saw this old broken wheel laying in a corner and asked where it was from.

When they told him, he asked if he could have it. "Take it away" was the reply.

Not being interested in motor racing, he thought I might like it. It currently sits in a corner of my loft and has done for at least 24 years!

[john winfield]

The story has been chronicled before but it is far more mundane than anything suggested above.

When Peter Connew was working at Team Surtees, he had occasion to visit the Firestone factory in west London. He saw this old broken wheel laying in a corner and asked where it was from.

When they told him, he asked if he could have it. "Take it away" was the reply.

Not being interested in motor racing, he thought I might like it. It currently sits in a corner of my loft and has done for at least 24 years!

Thanks Barry. I visualised you scooping the wheel up at South Tower, tucking it under your arm and somehow carrying it across London before Mr. Chapman noticed it was missing. (If he attended the F2 races). By the way, any more detail on the Essex Formula Ford racer that your cousin mentioned?

[Barry Boor]

No, not a scrap of hint of recognition by anyone so far.

[Alan Cox]

A little more news concerning the proposed sprint meeting at Crystal Palace this May:

MOTORSPORT BACK AT THE PALACE!
It's been a long time coming, but Crystal Palace will once again play host to a national motorsport event. Motorsport at the Palace, sponsored by the Ancaster Group, have confirmed that a two-day sprint event will be run over the May Bank Holiday weekend (30-31 May 2010), reigniting the spirit of racing at the Park.

Organised by Sevenoaks and District Motor Club (Sevenoaks DMC), with the support of the London Borough of Bromley, the two-day event will allow visitors to enjoy the sights, sounds and smells of the legendary machines which powered the likes of Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart and Stirling Moss to victory.

Martin Chinnery, Chairman of Sevenoaks DMC, says: "Sevenoaks DMC is extremely pleased to announce the return of motorsport to Crystal Palace. Thanks to a lot of hard work and the support of our title sponsor, the Ancaster Group, we're delighted that fans will once again be able to experience racing at the Palace. The range of cars competing, coupled with additional events and displays, will make this a fantastic event for everyone, whether you're a motorsport fan or just after a fun day out."

Stephen Wood, Managing Director of Ancaster, added: "It's not every day you have the opportunity to become a part of history in the making. This event has South London roots older than our own. To see some truly fantastic pieces of machinery - old and new - will make these two days an event not to be missed."

Celebrating the rich history of motorsport at Crystal Palace, a host of modern and vintage cars will be competing for the accolade of fastest car at the Park. Many of these vehicles raced at the Palace decades ago, and spectators will have a unique opportunity to see these classic machines reacquainted with Britain's oldest purpose-built race track. There will also be a new category for electric and alternative-powered cars, providing visitors with a glimpse of things to come, both on the race track and the road.

Competitors will race along a section of the old track, incorporating Pond Hairpin, the Big Tree Bend part of the Terrace Straight and the infamous North Tower Crescent - in a bid to set the fastest time of the day.

Visitors seeking a break from the action will be able to stroll around the numerous display vehicles and open paddock, watching mechanics at work, chatting to the drivers and generally soaking up the racing atmosphere.

Competitors will each donate a minimum £10 in support of St. Christopher's Hospice and the Royal London Society for the Blind; exhibitors will also contribute, ensuring that Motorsport at the Palace provides a lasting benefit to the community.

Tickets are priced at £10 per day and advance tickets will be available at a discount, from the website at http://www.motorsportatthepalace.co.uk.

For further details, please contact:
Colin Billings
Mob: 07770 301675
Tel: 01732 847440
Email: info@motorsportatthepalace.co.uk

[taylov]

I do wonder just how many insurance payouts there have been for killed or even injured spectators at motor race circuits in the last 25 years in Britain. Not saying it is impossible but can anyone even remember one where a car has gone in to the crowd in recent times with fatal consequences ?

Not in very recent times - probably the F3000 accident at Donington about 20 years ago may have been the last fatality(s) when a car got over the fence.

I can think of a another couple of examples either side of WW2 - at Brooklands when Murray Jamieson and a lady spectator were killed after Paul's Delage went though some railings and in 1949 at Jersey when Bear's Bugatti crashed killing a policeman and one other.

The problem with tracks such as the Palace was really down to the dramatic increase in lap speeds. A lap in the high 70 mph range in the 1950s became 80+ mph in the early 60's and leapt to 100 mph by closure, yer there was no change in the track. Looking at tracks like Castle Combe in the 1990s for a comparison, a 130 mph lap record in a EuroBoss car would seem to be a modern mark.

I never missed a meeting there through the 1960s, but it closed at the right time. There was just no way to make a track like the Palace safe for racing in the modern era. Although I would loved to have seen it.



July 1965

Tony

Edited by taylov, 08 February 2010 - 17:56.

[taylov]

What's all this ?

A Formula 3 race at the Jaguar Drivers Club meeting at the Palace in July 1965 taken on my Kodak Instamatic (a 15th birthday present a few weeks earlier).



There's no # 60 entered in the programme but I'd scribbled a note about 2 extra cars from S.M.A.R.T. (which I think was Stirling Moss Automobile(s) Racing Team) but I know no more. Who was driving car 60?

For those who do not remember Crystal Palace from 45 years ago, this snapshot was taken at Anerley Ramp, the uphill section from Ramp Bend with the Sports Centre behind.

I don't think that the few yards of one layer barrier would have stopped much - the steps behind suggest it "protected" a considerable drop.

Tony

Edited by taylov, 09 February 2010 - 10:01.

[Mark 13]

Not circuit racing as such, but there was an elderly gentleman killed at Santa Pod Raceway a couple of years ago when a dragster's engine blew at the top end and he was hit by debris, whilst standing on the spectator bank.

More complicated than that Andrew.
The incident occured when a transmission part flew off a car at the end of the quarter mile (top end). It was the final of the FIA pro-modified race at the European Finals meeting, either 2006 or 2007. The team in question had been working flat out to get the car ready for the final and had apparently not had time to replace the casing/cover. The trans would have been under massive strain on such a run (3000+ bhp) and it let go at the top end. The poor bloke who was hit was in his early 60's and a long time fan and many of those involved in the sport were shocked and saddened by the whole incident.
It may have been this that caused the closure of the famous 'barn' behind ther startline, as this was considered a vulnerable area for spectators.

All this said, I would recommend everyone to give one of the FIA Meetings a visit this season. great value, unrivalled access to the Pits and racers and incredible speed/noise/power.

[CoulthardD]

There's no # 60 entered in the programme but I'd scribbled a note about 2 extra cars from S.M.A.R.T. (which I think was Stirling Moss Automobile(s) Racing Team) but I know no more. Who was driving car 60?

Leslie Roberts?

Results from July 1965

DC