242 replies to this topic

[swintex]

For what it's worth the typeface on the Grenada stamp was designed in 1977.

It is called Benguiat after designer Edward Benguiat

So the stamp must post-date the image by at least 10 years.

[MKIVJ6]

Hi Paul
Thanks for the emailed photo's. They're very interesting as the body is identical to the body that I got from David and that's now fitted to my car. The blended in rear spoiler and blended in and raised rear window surround. You can also see in the close up the P4 roof vents which I don't make out in the stamp. I think the artist removed the chain link and the trees. Interesting.
Best
Jim

[Doug Nye]

The P4 No '23' postcard photo shows the car - I'm pretty certain - at the entry to the Curva Parabolica at Monza with the tall debris fence in the background which was erected after the 1961 Italian Grand Prix tragedy near this point. From the look of the leafless trees this is a wintertime photograph - or at least 'pre-spring'. I cannot explain the number on the car unless it was perhaps dummied onto this picture post-Daytona?

The P4s appeared in two major Monza test sessions early in 1967 while pre-Le Mans running was also carried out at Modena. This postcard photograph was definitely not taken at Modena.

DCN

[MKIVJ6]

Doug
What do you make the grey thing attached to the door near the scoop inlet that you can see more clearly in Paul's emailed photo? Number light?
Best

[Macca]

Not wishing to restart old controversy; but purely regarding the photo of a P4 berlinetta carrying #23, there was something relevant in the 'Nigel Roebuck's Legends' column in the Feb issue of Motor Sport.

The column was about Chris Amon and the P4; Amon said that, after winning at Daytona where he had been quickest of the four works drivers, "We did some running at Monza - mostly on the short circuit as there was ice at the Lesmos - and try as I might, I couldn't go quite as fast as Bandini."

So that may throw a little light on the picture.......or not. DCN identified it as the approach to Parabolica from an unusual angle.

Interesting also that he said that Scarfiotti was ill during LeMans 1967 "......being sick constantly, and losing all the time that Mike (Parkes) was making up."

I wonder whether it might have made a difference in the chase of the Gurney/Foyt Ford if Lulu had been well.


PAul M

[T54]

I wonder whether it might have made a difference in the chase of the Gurney/Foyt Ford if Lulu had been well.

Fat chance. The Ford was cruising, not racing.

T54

[MKIVJ6]

Dan was cruising. He was holding the revs to 6200. At 6200 the MK-IV's were going 223. The P4's were topping out at 199. Over 24 that difference adds up esp. as the time at max speed was so long. As you know at the end the difference was about 35 miles. As an aside I regularily turn 7000 rpms in my MK-IV. So far my motor has lasted 12 years and 25,000 miles since the last rebuild. At the last FFQC I ran at 165+ for almost an hour. The only problem I had was I was getting so much cooling flow that the water temp actually started dropping! I quess that's why the period photo's all show cardboard in front of the radiator when they ran at night.
Best

[SCHKEE T332]

As a casually interested 3rd party reader of this thread, I feel that it must be said that there is a
certain hostility to many of the posts by the non-believers , a rudeness if you will, that is simply
not called for and not returned by the cars owner, much to his credit. The personal nature of the attacks (tosser ???, WTF is a "tosser") ruin the effectivness of the arguement against the car's legitimacy. The insinuations are laughable in the absence of 1st hand testations

PS
If nobody is going to race the T70, can I use the wheels ? Really just need one ..

[ralt12]

The current appearance of 0858. Apparently the owner had the good sense to pay the tax lien before the car was auctioned off.

http://www.ustreas.g...az_anti_655.htm

Scroll down for the pictures.

[MKIVJ6]

Originally posted by SCHKEE T332
As a casually interested 3rd party reader of this thread, I feel that it must be said that there is a
certain hostility to many of the posts by the non-believers , a rudeness if you will, that is simply
not called for and not returned by the cars owner, much to his credit. The personal nature of the attacks (tosser ???, WTF is a "tosser") ruin the effectivness of the arguement against the car's legitimacy. The insinuations are laughable in the absence of 1st hand testations

PS
If nobody is going to race the T70, can I use the wheels ? Really just need one ..

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SCHKEE T332
As a casually interested 3rd party reader of this thread, I feel that it must be said that there is a
certain hostility to many of the posts by the non-believers , a rudeness if you will, that is simply
not called for and not returned by the cars owner, much to his credit. The personal nature of the attacks (tosser ???, WTF is a "tosser") ruin the effectivness of the arguement against the car's legitimacy. The insinuations are laughable in the absence of 1st hand testations

PS
If nobody is going to race the T70, can I use the wheels ? Really just need one ..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hi
The T-70 gets a fair amount of use as well. I've owned it since 1971 and have driven it over 30,000 miles. T- 70 wheels aren't a problem. There are several people who recast them in both Alum and Mag. Check the various Vintage Mags. Hudson Historic's in Irvington, NY can supply them. When I bought my car I also got a bunch of spares. One of my spare wheels has a shipping labile from Lola to John Surtees.

Once again if any of you are interested in the 100+ page document on 0846 PM me and I'll send you a link.

Those's in Italy this spring can have a look for themselves as both 0846 and 002C will be running in the Historic Targa Floria. Nino will be there as will Clay.

Best

[Doug Nye]

Please - Targa FloriO - 'Florio's Shield', not a prize for a flower show...

DCN

[T54]

Not the Targo Florian?

[MKIVJ6]

I wondered why they asked me to bring my Orchidaceae.

[MKIVJ6]

FYI I am happy to report that 412P 0854 will be joining my collection along with her original coupe body which will enable me to restore her to how she looked on the day...

[Scuderia CC]

Bravo James

It is what one call being a happy man... not? Isn't this James?

Best regards.

[Macca]

Congratulations, Jim................... but now that that you've got a Berlinetta 412P, perhaps you could put the Spyder body on 0846.............................



Paul M

[MKIVJ6]

Scuderia CC
It turely is!

Paul M
Great minds think a like.

Thanks and Best

[Tmeranda]

Nov. 2011
According to an ad in the latest MotorSport, 0858 is being reconverted from its current 350 Can Am configuration to its previous P4 Spyder form. I had a brief exchange of emails with the people doing the job, and found out that the red book Classiche done by Ferrari on this car credit it to a 3rd at Le Mans and a Ist at Monza. These finishes I have previous seen as credited to 0846, while 0858 was credited as 2nd at Le Mans and 2nd at Monza. Seems nobody really knows who did what in those days. Not that my opinion matters, but I hate to see this change in body work as 0858’s current Can Am body I rate as the prettiest race car ever built.

[jj2728]

In a nutshell and a very brief one at that, 0846 was driven at Le Mans in 1966 by Ginther/Rodriguez as a NART entry. Subsequently and with modifications to P4 specs it won Daytona 1967 and was then pretty much written off at Le Mans 1967 and then after many a year passed by the chassis remains (me thinks) were purchased and the car completely re-built/restored by Jim Glickenhaus to its orignal Daytona configuration. I've re-phrased this a bit since my original post, but the nutshell theory still holds......


Copyright JAG

Edited by jj2728, 18 November 2011 - 21:31.

[Doug Nye]

In a nutshell and a very brief one at that, 0846 was driven at Le Mans in 1966 by Ginther/Rodriguez as a NART entry. Subsequently and with modifications to P4 specs it won Daytona 1967 and was destroyed at Le Mans 1967 and then after many a year passed by bought again and restored by Jim Glickenhaus to its orignal Daytona configuration.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 17 November 2011 - 23:03.

[jj2728]

DCN

Now Doug I didn't say how big the nutshell was but folk can read this

http://www.ferrarich...ead.php?t=69585

and then draw their own conclusions......

Edited by jj2728, 18 November 2011 - 21:27.

[ellrosso]

Few pics of the Scuderia Veloce Ferrari P4 from Longford 1968.

[Bruno]

fantastiques photos mille mercis.


Brown why # of race Amon? he has run during the
testing?

Edited by Bruno, 18 November 2011 - 07:42.

[ellrosso]

Bill Brown was going to be the regular driver of the car during its time in Australia and had his first outing in the car at Longford - practice session and a run in the Handicap. Amon was in the car for all other outings over the weekend and set the outright lap record on the Saturday scratch race - 122 mph average and quicker than Jim Clark's Lotus 49 Cosworth. 182 mph on the Flying Mile too. Perfect tool for a driver like Amon at Longford......

[launchpad]

I haven't posted much lately as I have been busy.
Here are some pics from the Surfers Paradise 6 Hours 1968.
The Scuderia Veloce Team entry consisted of three Ferraris - 250LM, 365GTB/C and P4/350 Canam.
Pretty impressive eh?









all photos Copyright Rod Mackenzie

Can you pick the drivers?

[scags]

Isn't that a 275 GTB?

[Bruno]

Bill Brown was going to be the regular driver of the car during its time in Australia and had his first outing in the car at Longford - practice session and a run in the Handicap. Amon was in the car for all other outings over the weekend and set the outright lap record on the Saturday scratch race - 122 mph average and quicker than Jim Clark's Lotus 49 Cosworth. 182 mph on the Flying Mile too. Perfect tool for a driver like Amon at Longford......

Thank,
with what result handicap race Please

[jj2728]

Few pics of the Scuderia Veloce Ferrari P4 from Longford 1968.

Great photos, thanks for sharing....

[Nev]

Last weekend at Mt-Tremblant, I was gazing at Lawrence Stroll's amazing Ferrari 330 P4 ( s/n 0856 ).
AFAIK, at more or less $USD 10 Milion, this race car is one of the most expensive in the world.

What other race cars are valued at this price ??

Jaguar XJ13?

You know the car ... the one that would have kicked the a%^e of the P4s and GT40s in 1967 if Jaguar had got their act together ...

Me! ... biased?? .....

[Ted Walker]

Re post 218. When I pointed this fact out on Ferrari chat forum Mr G replied and said that this would never happen !!!!!!!!

[ellrosso]

Bruno, the Handicap race which I mentioned before was won by Doug Whiteford in the works Datsun Fairlady (1600cc) from Bill Brown in the P4. Brown did a 2.22.7 and 180 mph on the Flying Mile. Earlier in the day Amon won the 10 lap Sports car scratch race setting the outright record at 2.12.6 and was clocked at 182 mph on the Flying Mile.
On the wet main race day on Monday Chris came 3rd in the Scratch race behind Peter Macrow in the Tony Osborne Argo Chev and Glyn Scott in the Lotus 23. Reason why he finished 3rd is that the P4 was found to have to have a flat battery. He lost 2 laps having a fresh one fitted and set off on a blitzing drive in the wet to try and claw back the leaders (only a 12 lap race and he'd lost 2 of those in the pits). His fastest lap was 2.28.7 and he recorded 178 mph on the Flying Mile! If you've ever been to Longford and driven on those roads you would know what a drive that was - very gutsy stuff! Amon was only 6 seconds slower than Brown was in the dry Saturday conditions. The race long battle with Jim Clark at Sandown was no fluke..........
Bert Howard in the little 1100cc Lola Mk1 was nearly blown off Tannery straight by the Ferrari blasting past about 60 mph faster than what he was doing.
The Sports Car handicap was not run due to the atrocious conditions (rain was teeming down for the Tasman race and basically didn't let up so only 4 events were run
before the officials called time - the main race was the last ever race run on the circuit.)
By comparison to Amon's record, Jim Clark clocked a 2.13.0 and did 176 mph in the Saturday Examiner 12 lapper.

[427MkIV]

Resurrecting this thread as the "Ford vs. Ferrari" trailers are airing regularly now. Something I've wondered is why Ferrari gave up 3,000 cc displacement to the Fords. The rules allowed 7 liters, they knew Ford would again run the 427s, so why didn't they build a larger V12? I've read about the improvements they made to the 330 engine pushed the boundaries of balance with the car, and it was an incredible engine, but still, giving up nearly 30 mph down the straight for 24 hours in hopes of making it up in the turns?

 

Anyway, just wondering if anyone has any more details about why Ferrari didn't build a lager, more powerful engine for the 1967 season. Maybe even a V8?

 

And if Jim Glickenhaus is still on this thread, it's an honor. I have an 004C in one of my garages...on a video game!

[ellrosso]

Few pics from Longford 1968. David Keep (took the shot of Goss/Amon) told me a story a few years back where he was standing next to Jim Clark in the Longford pits admiring the P4 and Clark was bemoaning the fact

that Amon wouldn't let him have a drive of it......   David was a long time official as well as a photographer and had met Jim a number of times at Longford.

[Ray Bell]

And it retains the outright lap record...

I wouldn't think that many circuits would have had a lap record set by a sports car the same day as a Lotus 49 raced there.

There you go, Ford vs. Ferrari.

[rl1856]

Resurrecting this thread as the "Ford vs. Ferrari" trailers are airing regularly now. Something I've wondered is why Ferrari gave up 3,000 cc displacement to the Fords. The rules allowed 7 liters, they knew Ford would again run the 427s, so why didn't they build a larger V12? I've read about the improvements they made to the 330 engine pushed the boundaries of balance with the car, and it was an incredible engine, but still, giving up nearly 30 mph down the straight for 24 hours in hopes of making it up in the turns?

 

Anyway, just wondering if anyone has any more details about why Ferrari didn't build a lager, more powerful engine for the 1967 season. Maybe even a V8?

 

And if Jim Glickenhaus is still on this thread, it's an honor. I have an 004C in one of my garages...on a video game!

 

Did Ferrari have the resources to have built a new, larger and more powerful engine at that time ?   While there was a top speed difference, the P4 handled much better, and with the exception of LeMans, was the better car for most of the tracks used in the Sports Car Championship.  Top speed wasn't the deciding factor.   I would point to the Chaparral 2F; it was faster than both the P4 and MKIV overall, but barely cracked 200mph, it was also much less reliable.   Too bad they could not cure their transmission issues until the last race.

[Garsted]

The racing department must have been pretty stretched running cars in F1, F2/Tasman, and sports cars (the P4s and the Dinos), but they did eventually get around to a big V12 , 6.2 litres, later 6.9litres for Can-Am in 1969.
Steve

[427MkIV]

The racing department must have been pretty stretched running cars in F1, F2/Tasman, and sports cars (the P4s and the Dinos), but they did eventually get around to a big V12 , 6.2 litres, later 6.9litres for Can-Am in 1969.
Steve

 

That's possible, just seems like with more than a year to prepare they could've gone ahead and built that 6- or 6.9-liter. And thinking about what Traco was able to do with the 5-liter in Penske's 512M, the 330 engine might have left 25-50 hp on the table due to tolerances, build quality, etc.

[Duc-Man]

Hey guys on facebook came a question up about the HP figures of the 412P. All I can find on thr interweb are numbers around 420hp...and that was doubted.

Does anybody know if this number is reliable and true or if that is some Ferrari exeggeration? If so, what was the real hp?

[Garsted]

According to Antoine Prunet's book on Ferrari Sports Racing and Prototype Competition Cars, the 1966 works 330P3 cars with fuel injection and 2 valves per cylinder had 420 bhp. The 1967 works P4s had 3 valves per cylinder which raised the output by 30 bhp to 450. However the upgraded P3s, which were known as 412Ps did not have the 3 valve heads, and "carburettors were used again" so maybe these customer cars had less than 420bhp.

Steve

[Macca]

The P3's used the actual 4-cam 4 litre engines from the P2's of 1965 (which were all fitted with 2-cam 4.4 litre engines before being sold to the customer teams), and were rated at 410bhp at 8,200 rpm in 1965 with a c/r of 9.8:1.

 

The c/r was raised to 10.5:1 in 1966 with the same maximum revs, but for 1967 in the 412P's and with the higher c/r and back on carburettors the maximum revs were 8,000; so maybe 420bhp was optimistic. 

 

Paul M

[miurasv]

Updating this thread with the information that James Glickenahus's car that he states is the real Ferrari 330 P3/P4 chassis #0846, the 1967 winner of the 24 Hours of Daytona has actually been proven to be a fake with a replica chassis, with many proven differences to the real one, and a 3 litre 312 F1 engine that is very incorrectly mounted in a way that compromises the rigidity of the chassis.

[Myhinpaa]

There were serious doubts about JG's claims that it was the P3/4 "0846" from the very beginning in this thread.

 

https://forums.autos...app=forums&st=0

 

Proven in detail on FerrariChat to be a replica, built on one of the later made P4 replica chassis made for David Piper (DP0003)

These chassis were manufactured by Silvano Cantelli of Modena in a small series, just for David Piper.

 

This is quite a comprehensive thread! https://www.ferraric...-thread.423520/

 

             A good summary in this post : https://www.ferraric...osts/145366322/

 

The evidence for this car being a replica is overwhelming, quite concerning that the owner continues to claim it's the original P3/4 "0846"

Edited by Myhinpaa, 28 October 2021 - 22:14.

[Doug Nye]

David Piper has always kept notably quiet about customer Glickenhaus's claims for this car - offering no opinion even when asked directly by long-time acquaintances.  

 

As a racer/trader David Piper has always been notably discreet and reticent in describing anything he has even been offering for sale...and certainly so since trade descriptions legislation took root in our country.  From my viewpoint the possibility that Pipes ever sold 'a Ferrari' without knowing exactly what it comprised or embodied - and factoring-in every last tiny dreg of intrinsic value into his asking price - has always been so astronomically remote as to be simply inconceivable.  

 

Mr Ferrari used to speak of David as "nostra Peepair" for good reason.

 

Hence my often expressed scepticism about claims made for miraculous identification of a Piper special as embodying 'a previously unidentified core' of '0846'.  What? So Pipes of all people somehow failed to identify some genuine Ferrari parts?  Give me a break..!  

 

Against this unedifying background, I should add that my regard for Mr Glickenhaus has advanced immensely with his team's involvement in frontline modern-era motor sport.  Good effort there, indeed.  

 

DCN