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Mercedes Benz W154 (merged)


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#1 oldtimer

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Posted 02 August 2003 - 20:53

Does the MB museum display a 1938 W154?

In the thread on 'politically incorrect Auto-Unions', a picture of a group of 4 MB museum cars, a W196, a W165, a W154 and a W25 was posted. (Sorry guys, I am not computer literate enough to give the link :blush: )

The W154 is in a shadow and looks more like a '38 car to me, but I was not aware that MB had a '38 car, imagining that the '39 cars used the '38 chassis.

So, does MB have a 1938 W154, and if so, is it a reproduction or an original?

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 August 2003 - 21:04

Here's the picture referred to:
Posted Image
:)

#3 mwessel

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Posted 02 August 2003 - 21:11

I saw the '38 gp car @ the Goodwood Festival of Speed 3 weeks ago, WOW!!
The shriek when it is warmed up, I love that photo, I wonder if it can be purchased as a print or poster?
The prewar Auto Union & Mercedes were just amazing technology.

#4 Holger Merten

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Posted 02 August 2003 - 21:26

Originally posted by mwessel

The prewar Auto Union & Mercedes were just amazing technology.

YES.

And the 1938/1939 question is versy interesting. I think, the MB Museum never had the problem to show all the Silverarrows. That brings up the question, how much of the MB Silverarrows still exist?And where?

Richard, could bring some light into that tunnel?

#5 Holger Merten

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Posted 02 August 2003 - 21:27

Originally posted by mwessel
I saw the '38 gp car @ the Goodwood Festival of Speed 3 weeks ago, WOW!!
The shriek when it is warmed up, I love that photo, I wonder if it can be purchased as a print or poster?

Or that will be the answer to the question, if that was a 1938 MB GR-car (from the MB museum)?

#6 John Fransson

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Posted 02 August 2003 - 22:27

"Politically incorrect"?

#7 oldtimer

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Posted 03 August 2003 - 02:01

I misquoted the referenced thread.

But the issue is whether or not that is a 1938 W154 in the picture, and if so, where did it come from.

Since TNF has been so successful in unravelling the origins of emerging pre-WW2 Auto-Union GP cars :clap: , I am hoping for some more insight.

I have been fascinated by those '30s monsters after reading my father's copy of the original George Monkhouse book. My father's little library also had Chula's books on Bira and Dick Seaman. Now the ERAs were a little quaint, the Delage sleek, but those monsters slung between those huge wheels were racing cars. Those driving them, in their cloth helmets and tinted goggles, elbows inches away from rear tyres, had to be heroes.

The passion is still there, and I just love to learn more information about them.

#8 Paul Parker

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Posted 03 August 2003 - 15:11

Further to the thread on the Mercedes Benz W154 shown in Vitesse2's reply and Mwessel's claim to have seen the 1938 car at the Goodwood FOS.

The car in the museum photograph is a 1938 W154 with a long tail and the car at Goodwood driven by John Surtees was a 1939 W154 that has a different body style and nose. As far as I am aware the 1938/39 cars are essentially the same basic machine under the bodywork although the later model has a more powerful engine thanks to a two stage supercharger and other development mods. For a proper explanation and full facts refer to Karl Ludvigsen's QUICKSILVER CENTURY.

#9 Jonas

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Posted 03 August 2003 - 17:55

I recall having seen this very car at Deutsches Museum in München several years ago. I'm not entirely sure, but I think it was back in 1992. I remember that the tail was obviously new made. It was (as I think can be seen at the picture) not painted but polished aluminium in a way I've never seen the silver arrows appear. I have a picture of it in my album from that time. But it is at home, and I won't be back until two weeks time. The front was, as far as I can remember, correct 1938 specification (large and, in my opinion, not too elegant..)

I also asked (through email) one of the responisible of the MB archive exactly how many of the MB Silver Arrows were still in existance. I was very grateful (and a bit surprised) for the the quick response, which told exactly how many of each type was produced and how many still existed (in the hands of the factory and the Schlumpf Museum. Other privately owned cars was not counted in.). Unfortunatley has the reply vanished in a computer crash a while ago, but I was surprised to learn that most of the cars still existed. Are most of the cars in storage in the factory buildings? How many are being showed in other museums (Ex: Deutsches Museum, Technical Museum of Prague)

I might also add that I was surprised to see a streamlined 1954 MB W196 in which Stirling Moss was claimed to have won the British GP, here in Vienna, Austria, were I'm currently residing.

/Jonas

#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 August 2003 - 21:25

Originally posted by Jonas
.....I might also add that I was surprised to see a streamlined 1954 MB W196 in which Stirling Moss was claimed to have won the British GP, here in Vienna, Austria, were I'm currently residing.


Ah yes, the little publicised medium wheelbase car with the outboard disc brakes at the front and a magnesium (sorry, elektron) gearbox housing...

#11 Don Capps

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Posted 03 August 2003 - 22:21

I know that Our Doug put an identity to the W154/38 and its engine. Off the top of my head I don't recall the exact chassis no., but think it was '14' and the engine was an H-series, perhaps 'H4.' I have that information sitting on the shelf somewhere.

#12 oldtimer

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Posted 04 August 2003 - 21:07

Originally posted by Don Capps
I know that Our Doug put an identity to the W154/38 and its engine. Off the top of my head I don't recall the exact chassis no., but think it was '14' and the engine was an H-series, perhaps 'H4.' I have that information sitting on the shelf somewhere.


So that means the MB museum does have a 1938 W154? Their web-site does not list the museum's contents.

#13 karlcars

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 14:00

This is intriguing.

When I was in Germany in 1958-59 the Deutches Museum in Munich had a show chassis of the 1938 version of the 3-liter -- and a wonderful sight it was.

I wasn't aware that M-B itself had kept an original 1938 car, as many were of course converted into 1939 models. But they might have. And indeed, like Audi, they may have bodied the chassis that I saw in Munich -- which would have been a shame as it was a wonderful display piece.

Which reminds me, I recently went with great anticipation to the Deutches Museum's new Transport Vehicles exhibit building in Munich, only to be let down by the paucity of hardware and presence of lots of safety, emissions and other PC displays. Luckily I took a lot of pictures when I was there in '58.

#14 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 14:06

Don't forget the Schlumpff-collection in Mulhouse/france. Yesterday I saw an old brochure (1979) which picture of an 1938 W154. Don't know if it was a car from the collection or a car by MB for an exhibition.

#15 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 15:50

This may be the same 1938 W-154 as the one shown in the Nurburgring photo I posted. The caption on this photo is "1938 MERCEDES BENZ W154/BRUSSELS RETRO FESTIVAL 1994".

I would love to know how many original MB Silver Arrows exist today. Although I would not be surprised if the answers likely suggest more existing today than were originally produced.

Posted Image

What a beautiful car! Do any exist today in their original state of construction. Most pictures and examples that I have seen exhibit a higher state of bodywork finish than is shown in period photographs.

#16 oldtimer

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 17:11

Now that is a '39 W154, and confirms that the car in the photo at the beginning of the thread is a '38, which has the exhaust pipe exiting through louvres.

The thing that puzzles me is that the tail of the '38 museum car does look as long, or low, as seen in photos in Monkhouse's book. Maybe Ray Bell's explanation for the high ground clearance as lack no liquids is correct. The cars carried about 600lb of fluids at the starting line. But they had a driver controlled adjustment for the rear torsion bars. Is that why they always looked so low, because it seems improbable that Monkhouse always caught them with full tanks?

Why am I so concerned about ground clearance? Because I have a CMC model of the '38 W154, and it doesn't capture the 'prescence' of the racers because of the ground clearance and the lack of the pronounced camber of the front wheels on the racers. Picky, picky, picky. But that's what happens as models get close to their originals.

TNF comes through again! That MB list of cars would be interesting, though.

#17 dmj

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 19:23

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
Do any exist today in their original state of construction. Most pictures and examples that I have seen exhibit a higher state of bodywork finish than is shown in period photographs.

Car in Prague technical museum is maybe the closest to original state... I presume so. When I was there (well... 15 years ago...) it had the most gorgeous, absolutely fantastic, iresistantly seductive patina I ever saw on any car... I believe it still isn't restored. If I'm right go and see it before it will be too late!

#18 Henk

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 10:57

Four years ago the Prague Mercedes was still as it should be. And according to recent pictures it still is, although I don’t know whether the car was affected by the flooding that severely damaged the museum a year ago.

Posted Imageclick for larger image

Posted Imageclick for larger image

Posted Imageclick for larger image

There are many other rare and interesting cars in the National Technical Museum. Even if your Czech isn’t perfect, the pictures speak a clear language. My favourite is their 1913 Bédélia cyclecar. A popular racer in those years.

#19 oldtimer

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Posted 09 August 2003 - 21:50

The Prague car is a '39, and contrast to the Brussels car, has the exhaust exiting through louvres :blush:

Which goes to show that there are different bodywork details on the various cars in existence. As an example, I find it interesting that the MB museum W125s carry two rear view mirrors, whereas all the racing W125s in Monkhouse's book only carried one, sometimes on the LHS, sometimes on the RHS.

Has anyone out there got an unequivocal picture of an existing 1938 W154?

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#20 Don Capps

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 17:00

Here is information derived from Our Doug and Yves Kaltenbach which appeared in the late, sorely missed Historic Race & Rally Issues 3 and 4:

Mercedes W154 chassis log
Chassis no. werks nr. Kommission Nr.
W154/1 189 431 275 828
W154/2 189 432 275 829
W154/3 189 433 275 830
W154/4 189 434 275 831
W154/5 189 435 275 832
W154/6 189 436 275 833
W154/7 189 437 275 834
W154/8 189 438 275 835
W154/9 189 439 275 836
W154/10 189 440 275 937
W154/11 189 441 275 838
W154/12 189 442 275 839
W154/13 189 443 275 840
W154/14 189 444 275 841
W154/15 189 445 275 842
W154/16 189 443

Mercedes W154 race log

1938 Pau
W154/2 M154/H4 Caracciola
W154/5 M154/H6 Lang

1938 Tripoli
W154/9 M154/H9 Caracciola
W154/8 M154/H8 von Brauchitsch
W154/2 M154/H4 Lang
W154/5 M154/H6 & H7 training
W154/11 M154/H11 training

1938 France
W154/10 M154/H10 Caracciola
W154/4 M154/H12 von Brauchitsch
W154/2 M154/H11 Lang used M154/H6 in training
W154/5 M154/H7 training

1938 Germany
W154/10 M154/H10 Caracciola
W154/4 M154/H12 von Brauchitsch
W154/2 M154/H4 Lang
W154/7 M154/H11 Seaman
W154/1 M154/H2 training
W154/14 M154/H7 training
W154/8 M154/H8 reserve

1938 Coppa Ciano
W154/14 M154/H3 Caracciola
W154/9 M154/H13 Lang
W154/5 M154/H5 von Brauchitsch
W154/10 M154/H10 training

1938 Coppa Acerbo
W154/8 M154/H8 Caracciola
W154/2 M154/H7 Lang
W154/4 M154/H12 von Brauchitsch
W154/10 M154/H10 training

1938 Switzerland
W154/5 M154/H2 von Brauchitsch
W154/14 M154/H14 Caracciola
W154/6 M154/H5 Lang used M154/H13 in training
W154/7 M154/H2 Seaman
W154/10 M154/H10 training

1938 Italy
W154/6 M154/H10 von Brauchitsch used M154/H2 in training
W154/14 M154/H11 Caracciola
W154/12 M154/H3 Seaman
W154/9 M154/H14 Lang
W154/1 M154/H18 training

1938 Donington
W154/10 M154/H6 Baumer
W154/6 M154/H5 von Brauchitsch
W154/4 M154/H18 Lang used M154/H15 in training
W154/7 M154/H9 Seaman
W154/12 M154/H2 training

1939 Pau
W154/9 M154/H16 Caracciola
W154/5 M154/H6 von Brauchitsch
W154/7 M154/H17 Lang
W154/10 M154/H15 training

1939 Eifelrennen
W154/10 M154/H6 Caracciola
W154/9 M163/K2 von Brauchitsch
W154/7 M154/H17 Lang
W154/5 M154/H19 Seaman
W154/6 M154/H15 Hartmann
W154/11 M154/H20 reserve

1939 Belgium
W154/10 M154/H20 Caracciola
W154/7 M154/H15 Lang used M154/H19 in training
W154/9 M163/K2 von Brauchitsch
W154/5 M154/H14 Seaman
W154/6 M154/H16 reserve

1939 France
W154/6 M154/H17 Caracciola used M163/K3 in training
W154/9 M154/11 von Brauchitsch
W154/8 M154/H6 Lang
W154/1 M154/H15 training
W154/10 M154/H6 training

1939 Germany
W154/10 M154/H20 Caracciola
W154/6 M154/H17 von Brauchitsch
W154/7 M154/H9 Lang used M163/K1 in training
W154/4 M163/K2 Brendel
W154/1 M154/H15 training
W154/8 M154/H14 training

1939 Switzerland
W154/9 M163/K2 von Brauchitsch
W154/6 M154/H9 Hartmann
W154/10 M154/H20 Caracciola
W154/7 M163/K3 Lang used M163/K1 in training
W154/8 M163/K3 training also used M154/H15

1939 Yugoslavia
W154/8 M163/K1 Lang
W154/15 M154/H10 von Brauchitsch M154/H18 in reserve

------------------------------------------------------
Here are the Post-War appearance:

1947 Indianapolis
W154/9 M154/H9 Duke Nalon

1948 Indianapolis
W154/9 M154/H9 Duke Nalon

1951 Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires, Costanera
W154/12 M163/K5 Lang
W154/11 M154/H19 Fangio
W154/16 M154/H14 Kling

1951 Premio Eva Peron, Costanera, Buenos Aires
W154/11 M154/H19 Fangio
W154/16 M154/H17 Kling
W154/12 M163/K5 Lang

----------------------------------------------

Disposition as of the end of 1992:

W154/6 M154/H6 -- Schlumpf
W154/7 M154/H10 -- Joska Roman, Joel Finn, Hans Thulin
W154/9 M154/H9 -- Neil Corner
W154/10 M154/H20 -- Prague
W154/11 M163/K4 & W154/12 M163/K6
W154/14 M154/H4 -- Desutsches Museum in 1938 trim
W154/15 -- Joska Roman
W154/16 M154/H17 -- Schlumpf

-----------------------------------

With apologies to Our Doug if I have copied any information incorrectly. Once again: Pity the poor historian...

#21 marat

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 17:38

The Mercedes W154 story written by Yves Kaltenbach has been published in "Automobile
historique" n°6 january/february 2001. This back issue seems to be still available.

#22 oldtimer

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 18:44

Thank you Don.

Reviewing the lists, I see that, of the 9 cars used in 1939, 8 came from chassis used in 1938.

The disposition list shows 8 chassis out of the original 16. Is there any accounting for the missing chassis? Presumably no.5 was written off at Spa in 1939.

#23 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 18:46

Originally posted by karlcars
This is intriguing.

When I was in Germany in 1958-59 the Deutches Museum in Munich had a show chassis of the 1938 version of the 3-liter -- and a wonderful sight it was.

I wasn't aware that M-B itself had kept an original 1938 car, as many were of course converted into 1939 models. But they might have. And indeed, like Audi, they may have bodied the chassis that I saw in Munich -- which would have been a shame as it was a wonderful display piece.

Which reminds me, I recently went with great anticipation to the Deutches Museum's new Transport Vehicles exhibit building in Munich, only to be let down by the paucity of hardware and presence of lots of safety, emissions and other PC displays. Luckily I took a lot of pictures when I was there in '58.



Without comments on what will follow in this thread, today I read about some 1938 MB cars in the Schlumpf collection. It would be interesting, which cars belongs to MB OR to the french collection. And why?

And going in investigating MB-GP-cars. We could more or less say, what happens to the AU-Silverarrows, but is there any result what happens with those MB racers. >Thanks for a detailled reply.

#24 Roger Clark

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 20:32

THe Automobile Historique article referred to by marat has the Mercedes driven by Lang and Caracciola at Pau in 1936 the other way around, ie Lang in number 2. This would make sense as it was his usual car for the rest of the season.

It's interesting that by the time of the 1938 French GP when the 3-litre Auto-Union first appeared, Mercedes were already up to car number 11. This shows the disparity in resources between the two companies, or perhaps the difference in commitment following the death of Rosemeyer.

Numbers 1 and 6 are not on Don's list, but had been used for testing, car number 7 had been prepared for Indianapolis but not used. The only car that had not appeared was the mysterious number 3 which never appeared anywhere.

#25 sandy

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 21:13

In the late eighties my family and I saw a W196 in the Science Museum in Vienna. It had a perspex plate in the bonnet. If everyone knows about this or it has long gone then so be it but hopefully this may be of interest. The Museum was wonderful. It was to electricity what the Science Museum in London was to coal and steam. Unchanged for decades, all bakelite and brass, thumping great ancient dynamos etc. The guards had orders not to allow in flashlights on cameras, as if a camera flash could damage a 10 tonne Siemens transformer, but their problem was that cameras had then appeared with built in flashlights so there were some difficulties and subsequent arguments, not that many people would visit the museum anyway, which would be a pity as it was a marvel. Probably has now been gutted and rendered PC.

#26 dmj

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 21:19

Originally posted by Henk
Four years ago the Prague Mercedes was still as it should be. And according to recent pictures it still is, although I don’t know whether the car was affected by the flooding that severely damaged the museum a year ago.

Posted Imageclick for larger image

Posted Imageclick for larger image

Posted Imageclick for larger image

There are many other rare and interesting cars in the National Technical Museum. Even if your Czech isn’t perfect, the pictures speak a clear language. My favourite is their 1913 Bédélia cyclecar. A popular racer in those years.


I'd like to recommend you following the link Henk posted. There is whole great site behind it, museums, races, oldtimer shows, car encyclopaedia... work of true fan, obviously. I spent a few hours there, browsing, and noticed quite a few pics that would probably be of interest for some TNFers and that could raise up interesting discussions. Particularly old Eastern European racing cars but much, much more. Shame it's only in Czech but pictures are worth it anyway.

#27 dolomite

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 21:57

Originally posted by sandy
In the late eighties my family and I saw a W196 in the Science Museum in Vienna. It had a perspex plate in the bonnet. If everyone knows about this or it has long gone then so be it but hopefully this may be of interest. The Museum was wonderful. It was to electricity what the Science Museum in London was to coal and steam. Unchanged for decades, all bakelite and brass, thumping great ancient dynamos etc. The guards had orders not to allow in flashlights on cameras, as if a camera flash could damage a 10 tonne Siemens transformer, but their problem was that cameras had then appeared with built in flashlights so there were some difficulties and subsequent arguments, not that many people would visit the museum anyway, which would be a pity as it was a marvel. Probably has now been gutted and rendered PC.


The site posted by Henk has some pictures from the Vienna science museum
http://auta5p.car.cz...2002/muzeum.htm

#28 oldtimer

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Posted 13 August 2003 - 02:10

Doing a Keir :) , and wondering if more of the W154s can be accounted for, I have sifted Don's information to give a summary of the cars which are missing.

1938: Chassis nos. 2, 3, 12 and 13. Of these, nos. 3 and 13 do not appear in the racing records.

1939: Chassis nos. 1 and 8. I am assuming that chassis no.5 was written off after Seaman's accident.

The 1949 edition of Pomeroy's 'The Grand Prix Car, 1906 to 1939' shows a shot of a 1938 W154 chassis. The exhaust pipes appear to be painted black, which suggests it was a display chassis. Bearing in mind a publication date early after the end of WW2, the photo was most probably taken prewar, and if the chassis was indeed used for display, it would be MB owned. Possibly 3 or 13, the unraced chassis?

Can our historians track down the stories of the missing cars?

#29 Don Capps

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Posted 13 August 2003 - 02:34

Remember that '13' is '16' -- there is no clue as to why this happened, but it did. Let me root around for more information on the others.

#30 Jonas

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Posted 13 August 2003 - 15:14

This is getting really interesting! Bearing in mind what absolutely extraordinary conclusions the TNF members have been able to draw in earlier cases, I'm very much looking forward too see what will come out of this one!
:clap:

/Jonas

#31 oldtimer

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Posted 13 August 2003 - 18:27

Originally posted by Don Capps
Remember that '13' is '16' --


Would that I could :D

#32 Roger Clark

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 22:42

Originally posted by oldtimer
Doing a Keir :) , and wondering if more of the W154s can be accounted for, I have sifted Don's information to give a summary of the cars which are missing.

1938: Chassis nos. 2, 3, 12 and 13. Of these, nos. 3 and 13 do not appear in the racing records.

1939: Chassis nos. 1 and 8. I am assuming that chassis no.5 was written off after Seaman's accident.


Number 2 was Lang's car through most of 1938. Destroyed at Pescara 14 august 1938
Number 3 never appeared anywhere
Number 12 was driven by Seaman at the 1938 Italian GP and was a training car at Donington
Number 13, as Don says, appeared after the war numbered 16

Number 1 appeared in 1989 as a training car in the French and German GRands Prix. It was destroyed in tests at the Nurburgring in august 1939
Number 8 was used in 1939 as a reserve in the Eifelrennen, by LAng in the French Grand Prix as a training car in the Swiss Grand Prix and by Lang/Baumer in Belgrade.

#33 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 22:52

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Number 2 was Lang's car through most of 1938. Destroyed at Pescara 14 august 1938
Number 3 never appeared anywhere
Number 12 was driven by Seaman at the 1938 Italian GP and was a training car at Donington
Number 13, as Don says, appeared after the war numbered 16

Number 1 appeared in 1989 as a training car in the French and German Grands Prix. It was destroyed in tests at the Nurburgring in august 1939
Number 8 was used in 1939 as a reserve in the Eifelrennen, by Lang in the French Grand Prix as a training car in the Swiss Grand Prix and by Lang/Baumer in Belgrade.


Care to edit this, Roger?

#34 oldtimer

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 05:00

No historian I, but with the additional information from Roger, I can repeat my counting exercise. It appears that we are now down to two racing chassis that cannot be accounted for: nos. 8 and 12.
And then there is the mysterious no.3. Is that the chassis in Pomeroy's tome?

I find it fascinating that, of the 15 chassis laid down in 1938 and '39, we are down to only two or three chassis that cannot be accounted for.

#35 Roger Clark

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 20:19

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Care to edit this, Roger?


No, I would love to have seen it against the McLaren-Hondas.

W154-8 apparantly went to Poland after te war, but its location in 2001 was not known.
W154-12 was raced by Lang in Argentina 1951 and ended up in the factory museum.

In 1938, Mercedes started to prepare some cars for record attempts to be made in October. One of these cars was a W54 fitted with a streamlined body and a 400-litre fuel tank. It was aimed at records of over 10 miles. The record runs were not held. A note published in January 1939 mentioned W154-3 no. 189-433 car for long distance records. This is apparantly the only mention of W154-3 in the factory records.

All the information I have posted on this thread comes from Yves Kaltenbach's article in Automobile Historique, number 6, Jan/Feb 2001. I believe you can still buy back numbers from the publishers.

#36 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 22:03

Originally posted by Roger Clark
No, I would love to have seen it against the McLaren-Hondas.....


Or run over them?

What fuel consumption were they expecting on that record car, by the way? 400 litres, about 90 gallons... ten miles?

#37 oldtimer

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 23:42

Originally posted by Roger Clark


W154-12 was raced by Lang in Argentina 1951 and ended up in the factory museum.


Not only not a historian, I can't even copy my own transcription of Don's information. :blush:

Thanks, Roger, for the patience, which seems to account for all the W154 chassis.

I have a feeling that seeing a W154 against a 1989 McLaren Honda would destroy the romance of the W154. Apart from cornering, acceleration and braking, imagine what speed the McLaren would achieve on the Masta straight. It would make the 190mph or so of the W154 seem pedestrian. But guess which driver would feel he was the faster. :)

#38 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 00:55

Originally posted by oldtimer
I have a feeling that seeing a W154 against a 1989 McLaren Honda would destroy the romance of the W154.

I'm not so sure. Put them both on the track surface of the 30"s and I believe that the W154 would fare rather well against the McLaren.

We all recognize that each were designed to be state of the art, and for the prevailing conditions of their respective eras.

Fun to think about though.

#39 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 03:18

I'm getting a mental picture of Alain Prost looking up at that big back wheel alongside him...

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#40 Henk

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 12:23

The 1938 ‘silver-tail’ in the Deutsches Museum

Posted Image

For a series of close-ups:
http://www.wilsonlog...ars-Bikes02.htm and http://www.wilsonlog...ars-Bikes03.htm

#41 marat

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 16:53

I have the feeling that seeing a W154 against a 1989 Mc Laren honda would destroy the romance



The romance had already been altered twice in Argentina 1951 by a private Ferrari 166C America.

#42 oldtimer

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 23:52

Henk, many thanks for the shot and the link, and to all those who gave information that answered my original query. :up:

TNF comes through again!

#43 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 00:03

I have just finished studying the article on the W154 in Automobile Historique, and was wondering why some of the cars were found in Eastern European countries after the war. There is a story about Neubauer hiding the cars in order to retrieve them after the war and this could well be the whole story, but there is a coincedence that I thought would be worth investigating.

We know, from a few sources that in September 1940, there still was a race and a hill climb planned in Romania (Kronstadt). The first of these was only cancelled when practice was already underway, if I interpret things correctly. We know about several BMW cars present, because there are pictures, and I have seen rumours that an Auto Union Grand Prix car was present, probably with Hans Stuck.

Since this is all pretty vague, I suppose that no hard information about the entry is available. Now my question, would it be possible that Daimler-Benz had also sent two cars, which they then had to leave behind in Romania? It is just an idea, I have no proof whatsoever, but it might explain a few things about the state of the cars as found, and the rather fantastic stories (as in fantasy) about how the cars were acquired.

Anyone with an opinion on this?

Regards,

Henk Vasmel

#44 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 19:36

Come on, nothing from any of you in almost a month? Surely one of you may think this is ridiculous enough to have a cheap laugh at my cost!

#45 uechtel

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 22:57

Sorry, missed it.

Originally posted by Henk Vasmel
We know, from a few sources that in September 1940, there still was a race and a hill climb planned in Romania (Kronstadt). The first of these was only cancelled when practice was already underway, if I interpret things correctly. We know about several BMW cars present, because there are pictures, and I have seen rumours that an Auto Union Grand Prix car was present, probably with Hans Stuck.

Since this is all pretty vague, I suppose that no hard information about the entry is available. Now my question, would it be possible that Daimler-Benz had also sent two cars, which they then had to leave behind in Romania? It is just an idea, I have no proof whatsoever, but it might explain a few things about the state of the cars as found, and the rather fantastic stories (as in fantasy) about how the cars were acquired.


I think if Mercedes had sent cars we could read about this somewhere.

#46 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 06:55

BBC television had a documentary about a alleged secret W154 that was hidden in Romania and that was offered for sale by a sindicate twice. One briton thought he bought it but never got it.
was broadcasted somewhere in 1998.

Henri

#47 f1steveuk

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 07:06

The name Coln springs to mind, ended up with a £1million steering wheel, but there were some fascinating photographs in the programme.

#48 timf5000

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 08:04

f1steveuk

Did not see the programme but think the name you mean was Terry Cohn.

#49 D-Type

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 08:18

I think that what Henk Vasmel is trying to establish is how the cars reached Romania

1. Were they sent to Romania for the 1940 Kronstadt race and hillclimb and abandoned there?
2. Were they 'liberated' by the Russians and left in Romania on their way to Russia?
3. Were they 'liberated' by the Russians, taken to Russia and subsequently shipped to Romania?

The story of how they were found and moved into international circulation some 30 to 40 years later is a different issue.

In respect of the original question, I would think it extremely unlikely that Daimler-Benz would have sent these valuable cars to Romania unless they were certain that they could bring them home safely.

As uechtel says, if it had happened then there would have been a record somewhere: in the D-B archives;, in the Romanian press in anticipation of the meeting; in the German press as internal propaganda.

Edited by D-Type, 18 October 2011 - 16:43.


#50 f1steveuk

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 08:20

Originally posted by timf5000
f1steveuk

Did not see the programme but think the name you mean was Terry Cohn.


Absolutely right, I must stop listening to my memory! Thanks