25 replies to this topic

[ianm1808]

After watching the World Superbike round from Brands Hatch a week or so ago , it got me wondering whether there had ever been an instance of wildcard entrys in F1. I can't think of any apart from maybe Mansell in (was it?) 1994 in Austrailia. But I don't know whether that could ever be considered a wildcard. Would wildcard entries driving last years models really add an exciting element to F1?


And secondly , I seem to remember a Honda advert from around 1987 highlighting the advantages of 4WS in it's then new Prelude and Accords. The advert showed Senna at Monaco. Did the McLarens at the time have 4WS? Would it work? Has it ever been used?

[Ray Bell]

It used to be fairly common for some teams to make cars available for local drivers, especially at races where it enhanced the starting money the team as a whole would get from the organisers.

Another instance was the USGP of 1961 (not 1962, I'm fairly sure), where Timmy Mayer had a drive of a third works Cooper as a result of taking out the FJr title in America that year.

During the seventies it wasn't unknown for Ferrari to turn out a third car for Monza either...

[BRG]

On the 4WS, IIRC there have been no F1 cars that have (deliberately at least) had four wheel steering.

Interestingly, when Mitsubishi rallied their Galant VR4 that had 4WS, the feature was disabled.

[fines]

Benetton developed a 4WS car in 1993 (?), but I believe it was banned in typical FIA fashion before it ever raced.

[mhferrari]

Well Mario Andretti took pole in his debut at Watkins Glen.

Although he was excluded in the Italian GP before the USGP.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by ianm1808
it got me wondering whether there had ever been an instance of wildcard entrys in F1.

I'm not sure to know exact translation in Italian of wildcard entry. I know that in 1978 at least twice some local driver could be admitted to GP without prequalify, as they should have done: they were Ertl and Stommelen at German GP and "Gimax" and Merzario at Monza.

Originally posted by fines
Benetton developed a 4WS car in 1993 (?), but I believe it was banned in typical FIA fashion before it ever raced.

I'm quite sure they had 4WS cars in the last two races (Japan and Australia), but I don't know if they really race or if or they were) only T-cars.

Ciao,
Guido

[Ross Stonefeld]

Isnt Wildcard the entry as much as the driver/rider? Ie if im racing British Formula Ford and I decide to go off and do a round of the German championship on an off weekend, imo im not a wild card. However if the European Formula Ford championship has a round at Brands Hatch, and me and my team show up with our car to entry, that'd be a wildcard.

To me wildcards are additional entries from an existing local championship, not replacements.

[Ray Bell]

Here your concept of the championship is clouding your understanding, Ross... not all racing is for championships, not all races are a part of a championship... and even races that count toward a championship are still races in their own right.

But the 'wildcard' word is more inclined toward the modern understanding of the championship ideal.

What we've done here is apply it to the world as it used to be.

The many times that March, for instance, cobbled up starting money specials to put local drivers into their home GP. The organisers paid more because it gave them a local name to promote.

And when Gilles Villeneuve was given a start (or two?) by McLaren as a super numeri in their team. That sort of thing.

Doesn't happen so much today... the whole thing is too 'organised'...

[Ross Stonefeld]

But the thread was started based on WSBK, which is a very modern series and championship. Wherein you have a National British, US, and Japanese superbike championships, seperate from the World Series. but when the World Series visits Sugo or Brands or Laguna, drivers from the 'host' championship often get entered on their normal bikes. Eric Bostrom, who did WSBK races that didnt conflict with his US championship, isnt a wild card, he's just an infrequent competitor.


You wont get Wildcars anymore because there's only one of each level. There's only one series running to MotoGP spec, CART spec, F1 spec, NASCAR spec. The closest in the single seater world is probably Formula Renault because there's so many national championships plus a European tour, plus a "World Finals" single event heat system at the end of the year for anyone who wants to show up. You could probably do it with Formula 3, but there's only 2 "A" level series (European and Briitsh), 1 B level (Japanese F3) and 2 C level (German and Italian F3) and the series dont travel enough and have no overlaps to have 'wildcards'.


Unless you want to consider anyone who doesnt run the full year a wildcard, which would make things massively confusing.

[Ray Bell]

I'm referring to the answers that have been given in this thread and the understanding that was given to the meaning of the word by those responses.

We all realise the world has gone downhill...

[Paul Newby]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
But the thread was started based on WSBK, which is a very modern series and championship. Wherein you have a National British, US, and Japanese superbike championships, seperate from the World Series. but when the World Series visits Sugo or Brands or Laguna, drivers from the 'host' championship often get entered on their normal bikes. Eric Bostrom, who did WSBK races that didnt conflict with his US championship, isnt a wild card, he's just an infrequent competitor.


You wont get Wildcars anymore because there's only one of each level. There's only one series running to MotoGP spec, CART spec, F1 spec, NASCAR spec. The closest in the single seater world is probably Formula Renault because there's so many national championships plus a European tour, plus a "World Finals" single event heat system at the end of the year for anyone who wants to show up. You could probably do it with Formula 3, but there's only 2 "A" level series (European and Briitsh), 1 B level (Japanese F3) and 2 C level (German and Italian F3) and the series dont travel enough and have no overlaps to have 'wildcards'.


Unless you want to consider anyone who doesnt run the full year a wildcard, which would make things massively confusing.

Ross

How do you equate Japanese F3 as B Level? Plus I wonder about Australian F3 - D Level is probably being too kind ....

[Ross Stonefeld]

D-Level is too kind, as id completely forgotten about it


I dropped my rating of Japanese F3 because they're struggling for grids this year and have maybe 12-14 entrants per race.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by fines
Benetton developed a 4WS car in 1993 (?), but I believe it was banned in typical FIA fashion before it ever raced.

Anyone know how it worked? Was it true 4ws or some cunning geometry which altered toe in/out with roll?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
.....I dropped my rating of Japanese F3 because they're struggling for grids this year and have maybe 12-14 entrants per race.

I'm sure we're doing better than that here...

And Big Dave's kid's been pulled off the Harrison to steer Johnsy's device into second place in the pointscore, aided and abetted by Cary... it's a wonder they haven't roped eldougo in to help crew for them.

[Paul Newby]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


I'm sure we're doing better than that here...

And Big Dave's kid's been pulled off the Harrison to steer Johnsy's device into second place in the pointscore, aided and abetted by Carey... it's a wonder they haven't roped eldougo in to help crew for them.

Um, Ray, would you care to translate?

Are you referring to Bart Mawer doing well in F3? He never looked the business in F Ford, maybe he has a top car that is flattering his ability.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Newby
Um, Ray, would you care to translate?

Are you referring to Bart Mawer doing well in F3? He never looked the business in F Ford, maybe he has a top car that is flattering his ability.

Hmm... how can I make it simple?

From my original post
I'm sure we're doing better than that here...

The fields are greater than in the land of Nippon.

And Big Dave's kid's.....

You looked at the pointscore, didn't you? Cheat!

David Mawer had Kimberley first, then Barton, who has been racing go-karts and then the FF built by Big Dave and Harry for Scurvybones.

.....been pulled off the Harrison....

The two main lathes in Dave's exceedingly well equipped workshop are Harrisons. A typical conversation might be something like:

Customer: "Do you think you'll be able to do that, Dave?"

Big Dave: "Harrison will be able to turn that down and make up a top hat bush in phosphur bronze."

Customer, with sincere trust in the man before him: "Dave, do you think it will wear out again like that?"

Big Dave, well experienced in comforting the nervous: "Well, to straighten this part up so that it won't wear out again we'll have to ask Rossi Vo to help out, and if you bring the other part of the housing over we'll rough that out on the big lathe to give it a bit more clearance."

Customer, comforted by all this: "Oh, thanks Dave. How much do you think it will cost then?"

Big Dave: "Well, it'll get close to the national debt, but I've got some phosphur bronze over there left over from some racing car job that's big enough for this. Usually that's priced close to the same as unobtainium, but we buy it in bulk from a secret supplier, so we can give you a cut on that. Most places they would charge you an arm and a leg, but here we usually let people off for the leg, and if I give it to the nightshift we can charge it out at a lower rate." **

Customer, now relieved, but wondering: "You've put a night shift on? So business is good?"

Big Dave: "Business is always good. That's why I kiss Di goodnight after dinner and come back down to the shed and work the nightshift."

Customer usually bids goodbye at this point, walks to car, quietly drives out the deteriorating driveway onto Frankum Drive. As his silence is deafening, he is soon asked by the patient wife how he got on, a question he's not sure he can comfortably answer...

.....to steer Johnsy's device.....

The car he's driving is owned by that archetype of the 'asleep while walking' style, Bob Johns. Bob's a hell of a nice guy, used to own the ex-Geoghegan Lotus 59, but a bit slow. He loves his racing and has given Bart this chance...

The car is a Dallara F396.

.....into second place in the pointscore, aided and abetted by Cary.....

Bruce Cary, formerly Ron Taurenac's right hand man at Ralt, a very capable race engineer with many years of experience in F3 and F3000. Also a good friend of Big Dave's, he's been the engineer on the Dallara all year.

.....it's a wonder they haven't roped eldougo in to help crew for them.

Well why not? It was Cary who named poor Doug 'eldougo' anyway, as formerly discussed on this forum. And extra hands in the pits are usually helpful.


Now, with all that, can't I comfortably say, "Everybody knows that!"?




.....**This entire conversation would take place without Dave raising the slightest smile or giving any indication that there was humour or irony involved.....

[Paul Newby]

Ray, it this is simple than I would love to see an involved answer. I don’t know any of these characters so I guess it’s a case of “you had to be there!”

Getting back to Bart Mawer, someone I know was involved with him in F Ford and had doubts about his ability. Having said that, I saw Bart win the last F3 round at Oran Park, so he’s doing well this year.

Still, I don’t think the competition is to the level if last year. Australian Championship winner James Manderson went onto Euro F3 (since returned to A/A due to a lack of money) and runner up (and F Holden champ in the same year) Will Power is making a name for himself in British F3.

I know that Ross S is a fan of Will Davison, but curious to know his thoughts on Will Power?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Newby
Ray, if this is simple than I would love to see an involved answer. I don’t know any of these characters so I guess it’s a case of “you had to be there!”.....

I thought it was obvious that my purpose was to help you get to know them!

Big Dave, the gifted engineer, of whom Elwyn Bickley has told me, "Dave can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I can make the silk purse, but I have to start with silk..."

Bruce Cary, very experienced in race engineering, knows the ins and outs of F3 cars probably better than anyone in Australia.

The Customer, typically a farmer or a miner or someone dependent on some kind of machinery to keep him in business. And typically keen to keep the old gear going longer than the makers of any replacements think it should have been able to do.

This ignores, of course, the multitude of racing customers who arrive at his door during either day or night shift.

Bart? Well, I've not seen him except for briefly at Lakeside in "the green car" (surely I don't have to explain that one to you?), but I've basically known him since he was just a little kid with a hearing aid. I think you hit the nail on the head... you saw him win the round at Oran Park, I saw him win a round at Symmons with some smart use of power and overtaking prowess.

He might not be up against any genuine WDC contenders, but he's doing some winning. It can't all be Bruce's fault...

As for the level of competition... even if the last year's winner and runner up have gone, surely the balance have lifted their game with a shot at the title in the offing?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Hmm... how can I make it simple?



The fields are greater than in the land of Nippon.

Bigger, but not greater. Australian F3 on appearance is at about the level of Class B F3 in one of the European championships.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Bigger, but not greater. Australian F3 on appearance is at about the level of Class B F3 in one of the European championships.

Yes, we have quantity rather than quality... but that's deliberate.

I think it's a three year limit on the chassis... the chassis must be at least three years old to qualify for the Australian races. This is to keep costs down while not getting too far away from the International competition.

You must understand that F3 came to Australia without the blessing of the Confederation of Australian Motor Sport. It was a competitor-driven introduction with some kind of organisation to set down rules that would make it happen despite the official blessing of the CAMS.

Happily, it has worked well and is now receiving that blessing... for what that's worth. CAMS, if you ask me, are dying and just haven't heard about it yet. Their ineptitude over recent years is greater than a thousand captains of a thousand Titanics giving the order to keep up full speed in the icy Atlantic.

This being the case, it's not yet the main category being used to prepare drivers for a career launch overseas, though it may be soon.

What many people don't understand, of course, is the real problems our vast distances and relatively low resources bring. With a tiny population (is it a fifteenth of the USA's, with roughly the same land mass?) there is so much less scope to pull sponsorships and earn fortunes that are the usual methods of paying for racing ventures.

I don't know exactly what the financial arrangements of the Barton Mawer-Bob Johns-Bruce Cary deal are. I imagine Bob has bought the car and that's the end of his involvement. Bart works in his father's workshop and I wouldn't be surprised if everything he earns goes into the car. Bruce may well be doing it for the love of it. Dave is working the nightshift to put in his contribution, if my estimations are correct.

Should they win the series, it will be the result of as great an effort anywhere in the world...

And if they had backing, and a modern car, I daresay they would make the same kind of impact in any of the series you mention.



And one more thing... thirty years ago Big Dave told me that motor racing is all about getting your act together. This is why I feel my last statement is 100% correct.

[Paul Newby]

F3 seems to have been an unwanted child in CAMS view - too many single seater categories. But it has merit and will outlast F4000/Holden in Australia.

However there doesn't appear to be much money around and the presentation of the cars suffer.
The Dallaras are cheap to buy as complete packages, but I doubt there would be much in the way of spares like engines and the like. A bit like Super Touring was here - advanced cars but no money for development or replacement parts, they will soon get old and creaky like F4000.

The category really needs a control engine and other control parts to keep the cost down - no one can afford $0.5M budgets to run these cars here. Ross is correct - our F3 is a world away in every respect to the European and Japanese series, the standard of equipment and drivers.

As for Bart, he is a close second in the C'ship and he is doing it in an older F396 Dallara against the competition in later F301 so this is impressive. In F Ford in 2001 he was nowhere when up against Will Davison and Will Power, which is understandable as the two Will's are world class and doing the business in the UK. I wouldn't put Bart in the same class though he seems capable of winning the F3 title this year.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by David Beard
Anyone know how it worked? Was it true 4ws or some cunning geometry which altered toe in/out with roll?

Quite sure it was a true 4WS car, I should look for old Autosprint, I can do it on next days.

Ciao,
Guido

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Paul Newby

too many single seater categories

Seconded.

And it isn't getting any better. It looks like Renault plan to adopt F3000 and make it into F2 - they've also got the V6 and four-cylinder FRenaults, and (under their Nissan brand) the Dallara-Nissan V6 and two-litre series, oh and the Infiniti Pro Series over in the States. And isn't the Renault Campus formula still going on in France?

Wouldn't it make more sense for them to have one four-cylinder national formula, one V6 junior one and one really quick one?

pete

[Ray Bell]

Sounds good to me...

Organise a test of each category for me and I'll let you know for sure.

[Paul Newby]

Its hard to know what category an aspiring young driver does after proving himself in F3. One thing is for sure, it seems on present form that F3000 is the "road to nowhere." Bjorn Wirdheim may just make it to F1, but I'm not sure about anyone else in that category. Still its been proved that F3 to F1 is beyond most up and coming drivers, so they have to find somewhere to race.

Thet can't all become F1 test drivers ....

[Ross Stonefeld]

Renault have been a bit weird lately.

Formula Renault has all but replaced Formula Ford and is a hugely succesful series (45 cars on the grid at the last Eurocup round, 31 this weekend for the national race at Snetterton). Formula Nissan existed I think before the Renault-Nissan merger and was primarily a spanish only series, definatley has expanded now.


Formula V6 however, makes not a damn bit of sense.