Jump to content


Photo

WOEIT No 3A


  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

#1 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,524 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 17 August 2003 - 19:20

Being in a good mood after watching a truly wonderful Czech Grand Prix today with two works Hondas versus two new works Ducatis, four top riders, and the whole boiling knee to knee and ear to ear - I thought the following might trigger some potentially enjoyable thoughts, reflections, erudition etc... Who, what, where, when, why...etc?

Posted Image
1

Posted Image
2

Posted Image
3

Posted Image
4

Posted Image
5

Posted Image
6

Posted Image
7

Posted Image
8

Posted Image
9

Photos from The GP Library

DCN

Advertisement

#2 Newtown

Newtown
  • Member

  • 125 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 17 August 2003 - 19:59

Taking a horrible stab at #5...is that Riems? I'm going to guess without trying to research at all, which is why I'm probably going to be waaay off, but is it 64 or 65 F1, perhaps even an F2 race in 65 or 66?? (I'm way over my head with these threads! ) :blush: :p

#3 dretceterini

dretceterini
  • Member

  • 2,991 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 17 August 2003 - 20:28

#1 DB Panhard (Le Mans 1958?)

#4 Indy500

Indy500
  • Member

  • 44 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 17 August 2003 - 20:35

hmmmm, difficult...

1. LeMans, Panhard..
3. Nurburgring, sudkehre (in the back is the entrance to the sudschleife), 2GT40 and the Hownet Turbine, 1968 ?,1000km of the Nurburgring
5. I think this is Reims..
6. Monza, entry of the parabolica curve
7. Nurburgring again, the backstraight (behind the pits) possibly another 1000km race
8. Should be Reims again

#5 dmj

dmj
  • Member

  • 2,250 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 17 August 2003 - 20:40

No 2 really interests me! Looks like a Moskvitch on Austrian plates somewhere in Italy... Liege-Rome-Liege? Or Marathon de la Route?

#6 jarama

jarama
  • Member

  • 1,129 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 17 August 2003 - 20:52

#3
'66, Nürburgring 1000-km:
The european debut for the 2D Chaparral, driven by Phil Hill / Jo Bonnier (#7, 1st) and the GT40s of Innes Ireland / Mike Salmon (#44, DNF) and Skip Scott / Peter Revson (#46, DNF).

Carles.

#7 jarama

jarama
  • Member

  • 1,129 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 17 August 2003 - 20:59

Originally posted by dmj
No 2 really interests me! Looks like a Moskvitch on Austrian plates somewhere in Italy... Liege-Rome-Liege? Or Marathon de la Route?


In the round plate visible at the left of the picture, seems as if the action was @ the '53 Mille Miglia...

Carles.

#8 Wolf

Wolf
  • Member

  • 7,883 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 17 August 2003 - 21:04

To expand on Indy500's answers-

#6 should be 1965 Italian GP with Bandini in Ferrari 312 (#4) and N. G. Hill in B.R.M. #30

#5 should be 1964 French GP with Gurney (#34) leading Anderson (#32), both in Brabhams.

#9 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,473 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 17 August 2003 - 21:19

Originally posted by Wolf
To expand on Indy500's answers-

#6 should be 1965 Italian GP with Bandini in Ferrari 312 (#4)

or rather a Ferrari 1512! Second in the picture is definitely Jackie Stewart (#32 BRM) and I guess it's Surtees (#8 Ferrari) leading this group.

#10 Wolf

Wolf
  • Member

  • 7,883 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 17 August 2003 - 21:32

I stand corrected, Scheivlak, 'twas typo... :blush:

If I may go off topic for a second, may I ask what does Your username mean? I know what it is, but I figure vlak should mean something like 'corner', but have no clue whatsoever on first part of the word... Thanks in advance. :)

#11 Pedro 917

Pedro 917
  • Member

  • 1,767 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 17 August 2003 - 21:36

# 1 : DB HBR5 of Masson-Vinatier during the 24H of Le Mans 1959.

# 2 : Looks like the Mille Miglia.....

# 3 : Nuerburgring 1000 km race 1966 / Ferrari Dino 206S of Attwood-Piper, Ford GT 40 nr. 44 of Ireland-Rindt-Salmon, Ford GT 40 nr. 46 of Revson-Scott and the eventual winning Chaparral 2F of Hill-Bonnier.

# 4 : Dave Walker winning a F.3 race at Paul Ricard 1971 in a Lotus.

# 5 : Muizon corner at Reims during a F3 race 1967 or 1968 ?

# 6 : Curva Parabolica, Italian GP at Monza 1965. Car nr. 4 is Bandini's Ferrari and nr. 30 is Graham Hill's BRM. My guess is that Surtees, Stewart and Clark are in front...

# 7 : Nuerburgring 1000 km race 1967 / Car nr. 52 is the Abarth 1300 OT of Walton-Morgan, car nr. 124 is a the Honda S800 of Siefener-Becker, Car nr. 125 is the Honda S800 of Smet-de Fierlant, car nr. 6 is the Gulf-Mirage of Ickx-Attwood.......

# 8 : My hero heading for victory in the NART Ferrari 365P2 he shared with Jean Guichet during the 12 H of Reims 1965. Pedro is behind the wheel.

# 9 : is a mystery .....

#12 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,473 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 17 August 2003 - 21:56

Originally posted by Wolf
I stand corrected, Scheivlak, 'twas typo... :blush:

If I may go off topic for a second, may I ask what does Your username mean? I know what it is, but I figure vlak should mean something like 'corner', but have no clue whatsoever on first part of the word... Thanks in advance. :)

'Scheivlak' is the name of the pretty fast and challenging righthander at Zandvoort after the Hunserug straight, see http://www.forix.com...&l=0&r=5207&c=0 It's still there, though everything behind it has changed.....
'Vlak doesn't mean corner, it's like 'Flach' in German: flat or level. Perhaps they called it (and nearby Hondenveld) that way because they dug the track on a rather flat level at that point between the "rising" dunes - which make a kind of natural arena for the spectators. 'Schei' may come from scheiden = to separate, but I don't know. HHH might know more about this...

#13 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,780 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 17 August 2003 - 21:57

Originally posted by Pedro 917
# 9 : is a mystery .....


Driver looks like Gwenda Hawkes to me, but the car isn't the Derby-Miller ....

#14 Pedro 917

Pedro 917
  • Member

  • 1,767 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 17 August 2003 - 22:06

It looks like picture # 9 was treasured in a wallet......

#15 Lotus23

Lotus23
  • Member

  • 1,006 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 17 August 2003 - 22:21

Vitesse, I agree with your assessment on #9: sure looks like Gwenda to me as well. Maybe Brooklands, but I'm just guessing...

#16 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,780 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 17 August 2003 - 22:36

Originally posted by Lotus23
Vitesse, I agree with your assessment on #9: sure looks like Gwenda to me as well. Maybe Brooklands, but I'm just guessing...

Definitely Brooklands - observe the white fences on the bank in the background. The car is, I think, a 1924 2-litre Sunbeam GP model.

#17 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,503 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 17 August 2003 - 22:40

I don't think Gwenda Hawkes drove a Sunbeam. Is it Mrs W B Scott?

Number 5 is the 1965 Formula 2 race at Reims. Rindt (who won) leads Rees, Brabham, Clark, Hill and the rest.

I'd like to agree with Doug about the Czech GP, by the way.

#18 m.tanney

m.tanney
  • Member

  • 342 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 17 August 2003 - 22:56

#9: I agree with those who think it's a 2 litre Sunbeam, of the type built for the 1924 GP season.
  If it is, then I'd think that the driver would either be Mrs. Scott or May Cunliffe.

#19 dmj

dmj
  • Member

  • 2,250 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 17 August 2003 - 23:06

Originally posted by jarama


In the round plate visible at the left of the picture, seems as if the action was @ the '53 Mille Miglia...

Carles.

It can't be earlier than 1956, that's when this design of Moskvich is put in production. What about post 1957 Mille Miglias? Didn't they hold it as some kind of regularity for few more years? Car seems better equiped than Russian ones so it could be a Scaldia, Belgian assembled version for Euro markets.

Advertisement

#20 Marcor

Marcor
  • Member

  • 1,198 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 17 August 2003 - 23:22

Mrs W. B. Scott drove an ex Sunbeam 1924 GP (6 cyl, 1998 cc) in some BARC, Essex Motor Club and Middlesex County AC meetings in 1928.

June 30, 1928: she won the 50 miles Handicap, from scratch, his husband finishinf second (Middlesex County AC meeting).

September 22, 1928: she also finished third in the 58th 100 MPH Short Handicap (BARC Meeting), winning that day the ladies' handicap.

September 29, 1928: she won the Essex 10-Lap Handicap, up to 3 L, 27 miles, best lap at 120.88 mph (Ladies record during a race). (Essex Motor Club Meeting).

#21 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,780 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 17 August 2003 - 23:33

But whoever the driver is, it appears to be a record run - no race number.

#22 dretceterini

dretceterini
  • Member

  • 2,991 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 18 August 2003 - 19:02

#2 looks to be a Moskovitch 407 in the Mille Miglia; 1958 perhaps?

#23 jarama

jarama
  • Member

  • 1,129 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 18 August 2003 - 19:53

Originally posted by dretceterini
#2 looks to be a Moskovitch 407 in the Mille Miglia; 1958 perhaps?


The last authentic edition of the Mille Miglia was in 1957. Maybe in 1958 there was some kind of rally sporting the same name...

Carles.

#24 dmj

dmj
  • Member

  • 2,250 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 18 August 2003 - 20:42

1958
Castagneto and Boni organise a sort of rally with various legs around Italy, but the rejection of the official car companies who by now are only engaged on tracks and therefore lacking suitable vehicles, means that the event does not take off. The diffidence of the newspapers and consequently of public opinion, leads to the disappearance of the new race after only two further editions, in 1959 and 1961. During the following years, every hope of re-opening the roads to the racing cars definitely fades, and the Mille Miglia is spoken of less and less in Brescia, with a single nostalgic exception on the occasion of the fortieth anniversary.

(from www.millemiglia.it site)

It is a Moskvich, it seems to be Mille Miglia, so 1958 is probably the only option... But I know next to nothing about it...

#25 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 61,763 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 18 August 2003 - 21:13

The number painted on number 3 is in that distinctive Mille Miglia style, at least.

#26 Ruairidh

Ruairidh
  • Member

  • 1,074 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 18 August 2003 - 22:06

What is in the passenger seat in number 1, is that the profile of a head with a cigarette hanging out of the mouth?

#27 Marcor

Marcor
  • Member

  • 1,198 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 21 August 2003 - 16:37

I'm now sure about # 9: I've found an other picture of Mrs Scott dating of 1928/1929. It is said she was the fastest lady in oval track at that time (average speed 182 km/h). She had also bought an ex J. G. Parry Thomas fast car.

#28 Pavel Lifintsev

Pavel Lifintsev
  • Member

  • 143 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 22 October 2003 - 14:09

So what are the correct answers, Doug? Maybe it's time to clue us in?

As to me I'm particularly interested in the picture of Moskvich 407 crossing finish line somewhere in Italy. I tried to identify event and drivers by my own strength, but haven't succeeded in it. All that I can say is that Moskvichs with such a grill were producing in 1958-1960, the photo seem to be taken not far from an Austrian border and drivers are scarcely from Soviet Union, 'cause they usually took part in international events with Russian plates, as in the picture below, showing Anatoly Dmitrievsky (driver) and Vladimir Loktionov (co-driver) during the 1959 1000 Lakes rally in Finland.

Posted Image

Foreigners driving a car of potential enemy? In the late 50's or early 60's?! Doug, please, lift the veil of mystery from this stunning picture!

#29 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,524 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 23 October 2003 - 20:46

OK this is a first for me - the first time I've ever heard a shot of a Moskvitch described as a "stunning picture".

Caption from back of this ancient print identifies the event as the rally-style Mille Miglia run in Italy in May 1959. It reads "A Russian-builtMoskvitch, entered and driven by an Austrian team, crosses the finish line at Brescia, Italy, May 31, after the Mille Miglia. The Moskvitch was placed second in the 1,600cc class...".

Carlo Mario Abate and Gianni Balzarini won overall in a lovely Ferrari 250GT Tour de France Berlinetta.

DCN

#30 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,699 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 24 October 2003 - 15:41

All we need now to close out the Moskvitch issue is a picture of Tony Lanfranchi winning the British Touring Car Championship in one!
I think he won it two years running (1973-74?)

#31 Pavel Lifintsev

Pavel Lifintsev
  • Member

  • 143 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 29 October 2003 - 12:39

Yes, that was at the height of the Cold War, and it was Tony Lanfranchi, who entered in the 1972 Britax series the Moskvich 412, a rough Russian car, whose motorsport achievements seemed to be way behind. It had no pluses except of its low cost, but it was enough to take championship wins three years in a row! Cause there only production saloons under £600 before tax were eligible for the prizes in Class D. That's why Moskvich with its quite good engine (1478cc 75bhp) and artificially lowered price (that was usual Soviet policy to stimulate exports) easily outperformed its main rival, Honda N600. Lanfranchi, with a support of UK Moskvich importer Satra Motors, took both titles in 1972 and 1973, and Tony Stubbs, driving for the Kinson Motors team, did the same in the 1974 season.

If you are interested in the details of this story, there was a nice article of Marcus Simmons in the February 2002 Motorsport issue – both pictures are taken from there.

Posted Image Posted Image

#32 Alexey Rogachev

Alexey Rogachev
  • Member

  • 908 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 16 March 2011 - 09:23

Caption from back of this ancient print identifies the event as the rally-style Mille Miglia run in Italy in May 1959. It reads "A Russian-builtMoskvitch, entered and driven by an Austrian team, crosses the finish line at Brescia, Italy, May 31, after the Mille Miglia. The Moskvitch was placed second in the 1,600cc class..."

Some pieces of info to add (after seven and a half years - why not? :) ) The 2nd place in the 1600 cc class was the 52th overall (out of 76 finished), and the drivers' names were Wondrak and Klitsch.