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1920 Peugeot type designation?


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#1 fines

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 14:56

Does anyone know the type designation of the 1920 Indy Peugeot, the one with the the Triple-OHC? Thanks!

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#2 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 19 August 2003 - 22:05

Michael - you must be referring to the 3-liter Peugeot with a 4-cylinder, 20-valve, dual-ignition engine with three overhead camshafts. I always wanted to find out more about this poor design, which suffered from overheating problems, I understand. Can you recommend any sources where I can read about this infamous design?

#3 robert dick

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 07:08

The three-overhead-camshaft/five-valve/three-litre Peugeot was mentioned in Motor Age, Omnia and La Vie Automobile just before the 1920 Indianapolis race. Three photos (front and side views) were published and the bore/stroke dimensions of 80/149 mm, but no further description of the engine or the frame.
The same photos have been published in Dumont’s book “Peugeot d’hier et d’avant-hier”, again with no technical description. But Dumont added that Marcel Grémillon was responsible for the design and that in 1921 the frames were used with “conventional” two-camshaft/four-valve/three-litre engines (à la Ernest Henry), and later with Knight engines.
Another photo (side view with open bonnet) has been published in Raffaeli’s book “Archives d’une passion”.
A type designation was never mentioned.

#4 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 08:06

Robert - Thank you :up:

#5 Holger Merten

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 08:45

Originally posted by robert dick

A type designation was never mentioned.


Just to add my small research.

Following this thread, I had a look in "Die Geschichte Peugeots." (a german translation of a french book) with no word about that special Indy car.

#6 fines

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 14:59

Well, thanks all! Yes, Hans, that's the one - I myself don't know anymore, just the engine dimensions (from the Court book "Power & Glory"). It seems Peugeot have blatantly tried to forget about the car! :lol: Small wonder... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by robert dick
But Dumont added that Marcel Grémillon was responsible for the design and that in 1921 the frames were used with “conventional” two-camshaft/four-valve/three-litre engines (à la Ernest Henry), and later with Knight engines.

Robert, does that mean that subsequent appearances in the USofA were with the L3 engine from the EX4? And what about the Knight?

#7 robert dick

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 08:58

Motor Age, 13 May 1920 : published two photos and a remark that the older (ex-Coupe de l’Auto) three-litre driven by Ray Howard, which had been rebuilt in the US, would be entered with the three new five-valve cars under the Peugeot Auto Import banner.

Motor Age, 27 May 1920 : some technical data are published, “bore/stroke 3.15/5.83 inches, three overhead shafts, twenty valves, two Simms magnetos, Miller carburettor, Rudge wheels".

La Vie Automobile, 10 May 1920 : one photo, Monsieur Grémillon is given as the designer, displacement three litres.

La Vie Automobile, 25 June 1920 : some technical data, “80/148 mm, five valves per cylinder, three overhead camshafts, two magnetos, rear axle ratio 1/3, wheelbase 230 cm, tyres 32 x 4.5 and 33 x 5".
In the Indianapolis race report : “Due to the strikes, “La France” was blocked at Le Havre for three weeks, the replacement gears arriving too late. The axle ratios were too long so that the cars did not speed up quick enough and were retired just after the start.”

Dumont book : cylinder dimension 80/140 mm.

Peugeot archives : four five-valve cars have been built. In 1921 two frames were equipped with “classical three-litre Grémillon engines” and later in the twenties the two remaining frames received Knight engines.

= = = = = =

According to recent book publications, the old three-litre was entered under Peugeot Auto Racing Co., and the three five-valve cars under the name of Jules Goux. Boillot withdrew in lap 16, Wilcox in lap 65 and Goux in lap 148, all of them by reason of engine trouble.

The wheelbase of 230 cm given by La Vie Automobile is nonsense, according to the photos the wheelbase lay somewhere between 270 and 275 cm.

A “three-litre Grémillon engine” was nothing else than the old three-litre Coupe de l’Auto (78/156 mm) using cup type tappets (à la Ballot) instead of the original 1913 L type.

The Knight engines were 174 S as used in the Grand Prix de Tourisme cars.

That Grémillon is indicated as designer means nothing. In 1912 the French and the English press gave Vasselot as designer of the 7.6-litre Grand Prix car. The name of Ernest Henry did not appear before the autumn of 1912.
Grémillon was, beside Vasselot and Chamuseau, one of the archpriests of the Peugeot engineering. It is doubtful if he was himself responsible for the five-valve car.

The type designation of the 1912 – 1914 racers, EX 1 – EX 6 (for Étude expérimentale number 1 – 6 – in 1912 for the 7.6- and 3-litre, in 1913 for the 5.6- and 3-litre, in 1914 for the 4.5- and 2.5-litre) cannot be found in official Peugeot documents. This designation suddenly appeared in the sixties, probably initiated by Paul Yvelin/Griffith Borgeson who reverted to the official VX (for Voiturette expérimentale) designations of the Lion-Peugeot voiturette racers designed by Michaux and Verdet. Meanwhile this EX designation has been used by many historians and, since it is not bad or illogical, it can be accepted.
The L 76, ..., L 45 designation is a result of the 7.6-, ..., 4.5-litre displacement which was often distorted by the contemporary press in L 76, ..., L 45.

By going on with these EX/L designation, we could name the 1920 five-valve car EX 7/L 3,... or G3L5S3ACT for “Grémillon 3 litres 5 soupapes 3 arbres à came en tête”. :rolleyes:

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 09:20

Originally posted by robert dick
.....In the Indianapolis race report : “Due to the strikes, “La France” was blocked at Le Havre for three weeks, the replacement gears arriving too late. The axle ratios were too long so that the cars did not speed up quick enough and were retired just after the start.”

.....According to recent book publications, the old three-litre was entered under Peugeot Auto Racing Co., and the three five-valve cars under the name of Jules Goux. Boillot withdrew in lap 16, Wilcox in lap 65 and Goux in lap 148, all of them by reason of engine trouble.....


Could, perhaps, the seemingly fabled engine problems have stemmed from the incorrect gearing?

#9 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 22 August 2003 - 02:47

Originally posted by robert dick
...By going on with these EX/L designation, we could name the 1920 five-valve car EX 7/L 3,... or G3L5S3ACT for “Grémillon 3 litres 5 soupapes 3 arbres à came en tête”. :rolleyes:

Thanks Robert! The roll-eyes are very fitting but at least Michael has a possible type designation. ;)

#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 August 2003 - 12:09

By extension shouldn't that be EX7/L30 rather than L3? :)

#11 robert dick

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Posted 22 August 2003 - 13:13

Originally posted by Vitesse2
By extension shouldn't that be EX7/L30 rather than L3? :)


Strictly speaking yes! :p

#12 fines

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Posted 22 August 2003 - 14:41

:lol:

Thanks again Robert for this wonderful piece of research! :clap:

#13 fines

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Posted 22 August 2003 - 14:43

So, since the EX. designation wasn't contemporary after all, maybe EX7 wouldn't be too bad? :)

#14 robert dick

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 09:21

Originally posted by fines
So, since the EX. designation wasn't contemporary after all, maybe EX7 wouldn't be too bad? :)


The problem is that nobody, except the fetishists who have read this thread, will know what is meant by EX7.
If used without context, 3-camshaft 3-litre or 5-valve 3-litre would be acceptable.

In the strictest sense the 1920 5-valve 3-litre was not a direct successor of the prewar racers.
All these cars, including the voiturette racers of the VX series, have been assembled in a small workshop located at Levallois-Perret, a few kilometres north-west of Paris. Assembled means that the main components came from specialised suppliers, for example the frame from Arbel, the axles from Lemoine, a lot of engine, gearbox and drive train components made of the famous BND steel being manufactured by the Dérihon brothers, etc... This situation did not change between 1907 and 1920.
There was a first break over the winter of 1911/12 when Georges Boillot was named general manager of the Levallois racing department and Ernest Henry technical director or officially "directeur du bureau de dessin et des ateliers". That 's why the designation change from VX to EX makes sense.
After the war Boillot and Henry were not there anymore. It seems that Goux was general manager now, and that the technical affairs were directed by Grémillon from his office at Sochaux. The new 5-valve car was of the same family as the predecessors, but not of the same generation. That 's why the EX designation should be discontinued.

#15 Don Capps

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 15:20

Well, one thing I can come away with from this discussion is that my longtime confusion over the "EX" designations was warranted. I had found vague references to "VX" types, but nothing as to the specifics although it was clear that it somehow referred to the "EX" cars.

#16 fines

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 10:26

Originally posted by robert dick
The problem is that nobody, except the fetishists who have read this thread, will know what is meant by EX7.
If used without context, 3-camshaft 3-litre or 5-valve 3-litre would be acceptable.

Robert, this is mainly for my own records, where I quite often use "inofficial" type designations for easier research. Mostly, I take the year of the introduction of the type, but I'm always looking for more "meaningful" designation methods. When I finally put the information on my forthcoming website, I will make a note of the inofficial character of the designation, of course!

Thanks for all the help! :)

#17 robert dick

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 07:04

Originally posted by Don Capps
Well, one thing I can come away with from this discussion is that my longtime confusion over the "EX" designations was warranted. I had found vague references to "VX" types, but nothing as to the specifics although it was clear that it somehow referred to the "EX" cars.



Lion-Peugeot racing voiturette designations (designed by Michaux/Boudreaux/Verdet) :

VX1 : 1907 racing voiturette, single cylinder, 100/120 mm, L-head;
VX2 : 1908 racing voiturette, single cylinder, 100/170 mm, L-head;
VX3 : 1909 racing voiturette, single cylinder, 100/250 mm, 6 horizontal valves;
VX4 : 1909 racing voiturette, Vee-two, 80/192 mm, L-head;
VX5 : 1910 racing voiturette, Vee-two, 80/280 mm, one vertical intake, two horizontal exhaust valves;
VX6 : 1910 racing voiturette, Vee-four, 65/260 mm, one vertical intake, one horizontal exhaust valve;
VX7 : 1911 racing voiture légère, 3-litre, Vee-four, 78/156 mm, OHV-head (central/low mounted camshaft).

= = = = =
Peugeot (straight-four, DOHC four-valve head - designed by Henry) :

EX1 : 1912 GP car, 7.6-litre,110/200 mm (1913 Indianapolis 108/200 mm);
EX2 : 1912 voiture légère, 3-litre, 78/156 mm (vertical shaft driving the camshafts);
EX3 : 1913 GP car, 5.6-litre, 100/180 mm ;
EX4 : 1913 voiture légère, 3-litre, 78/156 mm (train of gearwheels driving the camshafts) ;
EX5 : 1914 GP car, 4.5-litre, 92/169 mm ;
EX6 : 1914 voiture légère, 2.5-litre, 73/146 mm.

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 21:58

Are there any pictures or diagrams that show how the camshafts and valves were laid out?

#19 robert dick

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:43

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Are there any pictures or diagrams that show how the camshafts and valves were laid out?


Voiturette engines :
There are no official construction drawings in the Peugeot archives.

The 1909 six-valve single cylinder (100/250 mm) has been described in 1910 in The Motor/London and Motor Age/Chicago, the correspondent in both cases being William Bradley. Motor Age published a scheme showing the valve arrangement: six horizontal valves equally spaced around the cylinder head, operated by “a complicated system of levers and excenters”. In addition the single had a triple ignition. This engine was designed by Louis Verdet, a former railway engineer who, later in 1909, founded the Société des Moteur Le Rhône and built the famous radial aero engines. In 1908/09 Verdet worked in conjuction with Louis Boudreaux, a prominent member of the Hélice Club de France (the ACF for motor boats) and the six-valve single could also be found in power boats, in the 100 mm-bore sincle-cylinder class, under the name Boudreaux-Verdet.

The layout of the 1909 L-head Vee-two is identical with the Vee-two stock engines.

The 1910 three-valve Vee-two has been described in the contemporary press, again in The Motor and Motor Age and Kent Karlslake took over this description in his book “Racing Voiturettes”. A vertical shaft drove a high mounted central camshaft. The two horizontal exhaust valves (per cylinder) were operated from the upper part of the vertical shaft via rockers, and the single vertical intake valve, placed vertically above the combustion chamber, was operated by the central camshaft, via rockers.
The layout of the 1910 Vee-four was identical, except that there was not enough space for two exhaust valves but only for one. The Peugeot archives have a photo of this car during service in the Levallois shop, the bonnet being removed – the photo has been published in Dumont’s book “Peugeot d’hier et d’avant-hier”.

The 1911 Vee-four had a low mounted central camshaft operating, via pushrods and rockers, two vertical intake and two vertical exhaust valves per cylinder = 4-valve OHV-head.

All the Vee-engines were designed by Gratien Michaux, who, when Henry became technical director of the Levallois shop, switched over to Théo Schneider/Besançon and was responsible for the 1914 GP Schneider with desmo-head.

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#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:58

I specifically would like to see the layout of the three cams and five valves, Robert...

What about that one?

#21 robert dick

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 08:11

There is really nothing about the 1920 five-valve three-litre.
Part of the engine can be seen on the photo in Raffaelli's book "Archives d'une passion" (since Raffaeli had contacts to Jules Goux, the photo probably comes from Goux' collection).
It 's almost impossible to draw any conclusion from this photo. It seems that the engine had a classical DOHC-head, the left-hand camshaft operating two exhaust valves, the right-hand one two intake valves, both inclined at around 30 degrees to the vertical - and in addition a third camshaft on the right-hand side operating a nearly horizontal third intake valve, all the camshafts being driven by a train of gearwheels.

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 08:39

Hmmm... sounds pretty weird...

Thanks for the information, Robert. I guess with a high-domed combustion chamber, if the pair of inlet valves were set fairly high, the 'horizontal' valve could neatly tuck between the gap below them.