Jump to content


Photo

Crosthwaite and Gardiner Auto Union Restoration...Where?


  • Please log in to reply
148 replies to this topic

#51 Dennis Hockenbury

Dennis Hockenbury
  • Member

  • 657 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 29 October 2003 - 15:41

In surfing around last evening, I found some pics of the Deutsches Museum AU Type C, one of which I have posted below. The bodywork on this picture is very similar to the Type C shown in the Vann book and to me this seems very different from the 1980 NEC pictures.

Posted Image

From www.wilsonlogan.com

Was this the original rebody by the Italians and later updated by C&G? Or does the 1980 date of the NEC pics showing the painted Type C predate a later bare metal body as shown in the 2001 Vann book. This would seem odd as all of the Audi Tradition outings of this car in the past few years seem to show the painted version. The 'knock-offs' and the cooling water line seem to be different between the versions as well.

Posted Image

Advertisement

#52 dmj

dmj
  • Member

  • 1,956 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 29 October 2003 - 17:32

Originally posted by René de Boer


Nice to see the quattro with yellow headlights, thought this was only de rigeur in France... And the Talbot stand in the background, with the Talbot/Matra Rancho and the Solara on display. Hardly ever get to see any of those cars anymore these days, all swallowed up by rust!

Actually Ranchos have higher survival rate than most of contemporaries due to having plastic bodies. But then they DO rust underneath...

#53 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 29 October 2003 - 20:17

Debis, your first pic shows the display version made by the Deutsche Museum after the war, cause most of the parts of the body were destroyed. Afterwards in 1979/1980 Audi resstorated the car less or more. And later in the 90s this Typ C was restorated with two new Typ C Replicas (may three) for Audi Tradition.

#54 Dennis Hockenbury

Dennis Hockenbury
  • Member

  • 657 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 29 October 2003 - 20:46

Thanks Holger.

I was not aware that any Type C replicas had been made. That explains the differences between the example in the Vann book with the bare metal body and the painted version.

#55 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 29 October 2003 - 20:53

Yes and don't forget, that Peter Vann got the chance by Audi to make pictures with some polished bodies. That's Public Relations made for. But today the cars look more "original".

#56 Dennis Hockenbury

Dennis Hockenbury
  • Member

  • 657 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 29 October 2003 - 21:27

I agree with you Holger that the painted version looks more original and more to my taste, although with the eternal questions I have regarding over-restoration (over-recreation in this case?).

Thanks for the information. Do you know how many Type C replicas have been made to date?

After running at Livorno in '36, AU donated this car to the Deutsches Museum in 1937. The car was displayed with the original body cutaway to show the internals. This body, and to a lesser extent the mechanicals, were damaged during the war. The remaining "rolling chassis" was restored by Audi and was then displayed as such until the 70's.

The Vann book mentions that the Deutsches Museum car was restored in the 1970's over a ten month period with the assistance of von Eberhorst and Ludwig Sebastian. The body was re-created using a few surviving wooden patterns. "The mechanical assemblies, on the other hand, including the motor, had incurred very little wear".

I think that this is the example shown in the Deutsches Museum photo in my earlier post.

"In the summer of 1995, a special firm of coachbuilders in Italy produced a new body to take the place of the first, unsatisfactory version." This second version also has the bare metal polished body as shown in the Vann book and has the same water cooling line routing and knock-offs as the 70's restoration.

The lower photo shows the replica constructed in the 90's by C&G. Photos of the construction of the engine and body in the Vann book show the same features as those in the lower photo. The Vann book states that C&G constructed two of the V16 cars for Audi/VW.

There is also a C&G constructed V16 record car (streamliner) built by C&G to replace the Riga V16 C/D hillclimber as per the agreement with the Riga Motor Museum. Unfortunately, the text in the Vann book is unclear whether this car is one of the two previously mentioned C&G replicas, or constitutes a third replica.

With all of that, I cannot explain where the 1980 NEC car was built, or where it is located today.

#57 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 30 October 2003 - 06:50

The first restoration of the Typ C is very well documentated in the book: Der Auto Uninon Rennwagen by Stefan Knittel, published in 1980 not longer available and now very expensive.

To your questionabout how many Typ C replicas are existing I'm not really sure if there are two or three, but there must be three.

1. For the Auto Stadt Wolfsburg in the Audi Pavillion.

2. For the Museum Mobile Ingolstadt

3. A track version, used on several oldtimer events.

#58 Dennis Hockenbury

Dennis Hockenbury
  • Member

  • 657 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 30 October 2003 - 11:32

Again, thanks Holger. I will have to find the book that you referenced. Although my German is quite poor.

#59 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 30 October 2003 - 12:50

Will be some expensive lessons.

Advertisement

#60 aldo

aldo
  • Member

  • 135 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 30 October 2003 - 13:55

Help, you Web geeks. I've some photos to attach to my next message, yet I can't understand how to do it. (Not even my computer specialists managed to do it). Who can post instructions? Thanks.

BTW, the photos are of the Deutsches Museum P-Wagen as it was in 1938, 1978, and 1995. What is surprising is how different it was already in 1978 from the original thing. Tyres are always Continental.

Another photo: a charming young lady sitting in an AU at the Cape with a Continental tyre in foreground.

Then, the Stromlinienwagen at what looks like being Zandvoort: what I find intriguing is that the driver looks like being Bernd. I could be/am wrong, yet some help is needed.

Do I deserve your Web help?
Thanks again.

#61 Dennis Hockenbury

Dennis Hockenbury
  • Member

  • 657 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 30 October 2003 - 14:10

Aldo, I would love to see your images.

This thread has some pointers for posting images here.

The images have to be on a web-accessed server, not from your hard drive. Use the "IMG" button to enter the url of the image.

#62 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 30 October 2003 - 16:10

Aldo, nice to see you back on TNF.

If you have no URl o link the pictures then you cannot post the images, cause they are not already on the web. You need to upload them to the web. If you don't have any webspace to do so, you'll find many members here willing to help you out. I'll hope there will be somebody who will help you. :up:

I think Ray is as interested in those pix as I am. But he sleeps down under. Posted Image

#63 dolomite

dolomite
  • Member

  • 950 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 30 October 2003 - 18:48

Well, I thought I'd have a bit of a dig around and see if I had any contemporary magazines from the time of the 1980 Motor Show, and almost immediately I found Bill Boddy's report on a visit to the show in the November 1980 issue of Motor Sport:

...I went first to see the 1936 Type-C V16 GP Auto Union so splendidly rebuilt by Auto Union, as described in MOTOR SPORT last month. It was on a special VAG (UK) stand, and Stirling Moss was being photographed with it. It had been VAG's intention to have an Audi 4WD Quattro on display with it, reminder of an effective Auto Union engineering span running from 1933 onwards. However this was Press Day and the Quattro hadn't arrived - as usual the floors were a web of cables and stands were still being hastily put together. I was introduced to Eberan von Eberhorst while being entertained on the upper deck of the VAG stand, where Tony Hill and Laura Warren were holding court, and this young 78-year-old engineer, who was responsible for those great GP and record-breaking Auto Unions before the war (and ERA, Jowett Javelin and Aston Martin developments thereafter), was able to solve my small query as to the make of those trucks that brought the conquering Auto Unions to England - they were Bussings. Von Eberhorst told me that these trucks had ramps under which the racing-cars were driven under their own power and that race successes were painted on the van's sides. He is such a fountain of information, with sucha very clear memory, that I imagine the English motoring authors were later buzzing around him like hungry wasps.....



This evening I shall dive back into the loft and see if I can unearth the previous month's issue!

#64 Dennis Hockenbury

Dennis Hockenbury
  • Member

  • 657 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 30 October 2003 - 21:50

As with everything connected with the prewar AU's, there is so much conflicting information and data on these cars.

During lunch today, I was surfing around and found the following:

"During 1937 AUTO UNION donated a Type C racer to the Deutsches Museum in Munich. This car was saved from being transported to the USSR because it was in a zone controlled by the Western Occupation forces, and out of reach of the Russian troops and their political masters. It was built in 1936 as a cutaway model for the Berlin Motor Show, and was donated to the Deutsches Museum in Munich during 1937. The cutaway body was extensively damaged during WWII and was subsequently removed. During 1977 it was decided to renovate the car and to build a new body. The mechanicals were restored by AUDI under the supervision of Prof. Robert Eberan von Eberhorst, the designer of the Type D Auto Unions. The body was reconstructed by the company BUNTE in Bodenwerder, Germany, according to pictures of the vehicles."

"The Deutsches Museum, Munich, retains a C-type built for its collection in 1937 as a cutaway show chassis, with no racing history as an entity, and built into a complete, operational car in recent years."

No mention of this car having raced at Livorno in 1936. Quite the otherwise according to the above.

"The Latvians realized that such a car was worth nothing, and agreed to sell the car to AUDI on condition that they get back a drivable replica as part of the payment. The task to rebuild this vehicle was given again to Crosthwaite and Gardiner. This also entailed building the replica type C/D for the Riga Museum."

The deal with the Riga Museum was for a duplicate C/D and not the streamliner. This was also my original understanding, but found one reference that cited the contrary.

Originally posted by Holger Merten
To your question about how many Typ C replicas are existing I'm not really sure if there are two or three, but there must be three.

1. For the Auto Stadt Wolfsburg in the Audi Pavillion.

2. For the Museum Mobile Ingolstadt

3. A track version, used on several oldtimer events.

I agree with your list Holger.

I think we have this:

Original DM Type C - Built in 1936 as a cutaway model for the Berlin Motor Show. Rebodied in 1977 by BUNTE. Rebodied in 1995 by Italians. Currently in Deutsches Museum.

Replica No. 1 - Type C GP - C&G constructed in 90's. Currently in Auto Stadt/Audi Pavillion - Wolfsburg

Replica No. 2 - Type C Streamliner - C&G constructed in 90's. Currently in Museum Mobile - Ingolstadt

Replica No. 3 - Type C GP - This must be Dolomite's 1980 NEC car. Constructed by ??? Owned by ???

Does this look correct?

#65 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 31 October 2003 - 07:47

Dennis, I posted a list of the present Auto Unions. Must search TNF. But in 1980 there were only three AU on earth.

1. The DM Typ C (now Deutsches Museum)
2. The Riga Hillclimber Typ C/D (now Audi Tradition and the most original car)
and
3. The Prague Typ D, which than was in the UK (sold in the 90s and now standing around Frankfurt/Germany)

4. A 1938 Typ D (found in Russia by the Karassiks)
5. A 1939 Typ D (found in Russia by the Karassiks)
Both cars restorated by C&G with the help of Audi, one is owned by the Karassiks, the other one in the hands of Audi, but I think not sold to Audi, but there for the exhibition, that was the prize for helping the Karassiks with the restoration)

6/7/8. Then the three replicas based on the DM Typ C were built by C&G (one for Wolfsburg, one for Ingolstadt and one for demonstration runs)

9. The Riga Typ C/D by C&G (in exchange for the original car now in the Riga museum)

10. The Typ C Avus Streamliner replica by C&G (Ingolstadt)

11: The Typ A Replica by C&G for the Belgium Audi importer D'Iteren. (C&G)

12. The Typ A for Audi tradition by C&G, until now not finished.

Any more cars, I've forgotten, the car in Scotland? I talked to the guy of Audi tradition who checked that car. And he told me there are original parts in the car, but it must have been an exhibition model, cause most technical parts, for example the engine are wooden, but from the 30s.

That' s all for the moment. So the NEC car of 1980 must be DM Typ C.

#66 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 31 October 2003 - 11:14

Originally posted by aldo
Help, you Web geeks. I've some photos to attach to my next message, yet I can't understand how to do it. (Not even my computer specialists managed to do it). Who can post instructions? Thanks.

BTW, the photos are of the Deutsches Museum P-Wagen as it was in 1938, 1978, and 1995. What is surprising is how different it was already in 1978 from the original thing. Tyres are always Continental.

Another photo: a charming young lady sitting in an AU at the Cape with a Continental tyre in foreground.

Then, the Stromlinienwagen at what looks like being Zandvoort: what I find intriguing is that the driver looks like being Bernd. I could be/am wrong, yet some help is needed.

Do I deserve your Web help?
Thanks again.

:( Is there nobody outside, who would give Aldo some webspace for his pix? :cry:

#67 dolomite

dolomite
  • Member

  • 950 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 31 October 2003 - 14:49

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
I think we have this:

Original DM Type C - Built in 1936 as a cutaway model for the Berlin Motor Show. Rebodied in 1977 by BUNTE. Rebodied in 1995 by Italians. Currently in Deutsches Museum.

Replica No. 1 - Type C GP - C&G constructed in 90's. Currently in Auto Stadt/Audi Pavillion - Wolfsburg

Replica No. 2 - Type C Streamliner - C&G constructed in 90's. Currently in Museum Mobile - Ingolstadt

Replica No. 3 - Type C GP - This must be Dolomite's 1980 NEC car. Constructed by ??? Owned by ???

Does this look correct?


According to Motor Sport, the 1980 NEC car is the restored Deutsches Museum car. I'll post the text from the Oct 1980 issue later when I've had time to scan it.

#68 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,875 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 31 October 2003 - 19:44

Originally posted by Holger Merten
:( Is there nobody outside, who would give Aldo some webspace for his pix? :cry:


Would it not be better for him to be instructed in how to do it himself?

Most people with an internet connection have webspace... once over that hurdle it's easy...

#69 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 01 November 2003 - 10:39

I thought he got much help by the posts in this thread? But Aldo is not such a heavy TNF user, therefor I'll hope he will got a chance to post his pix. :rolleyes:

#70 Pils1989

Pils1989
  • Member

  • 1,111 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 01 November 2003 - 10:49

Good morning,

Is C. and G. restoring/re-creating the d'Ieteren Wanderer also?
http://homepage.mac....otoAlbum22.html

Thx,

Toine

#71 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 01 November 2003 - 11:42

Wonderful pics. Great and interesting about those Wanderers.

#72 Pils1989

Pils1989
  • Member

  • 1,111 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 01 November 2003 - 11:48

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Wonderful pics. Great and interesting about those Wanderers.


When I went to see the D'Ieteren Collection, I didn't get much infos except that the PR guy wanted a print :rolleyes:
I will deal with Audi Germany next time ;)
I'm still waiting to get a new scanner (for better grey shades) to keep on contribruting here :)

#73 Dennis Hockenbury

Dennis Hockenbury
  • Member

  • 657 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 01 November 2003 - 16:20

Aldo, I have some webspace available for your pics. If you would PM me, I will provide you with the instructions on how to get your pics posted here. I am very interested to see these photos.

Holger, are you sure that C&G has recreated 3 of the Type C GP cars. (your 6/7/8). I can only find one of these in my reference material. I have e-mailed Dick Crosthwaite and hopefully he will provide confirmation of the correct total. I found and ordered the book 'Der Auto Union Rennwagen', and yes, it will be an expensive lesson.

Holger/Dolomite, In spite of the identification of the NEC car as the DM original, and I generally agree that this is correct, I am still intrigued by the painted Type C GP in Dolomite's photo as all other info that I have says the DM car was bare metal in both incarnations. Dolomite's photo, along with the Bill Boddy reference tells me that this is incorrect. Aldo's photos, and the book referenced by Holger will help improve my understanding of the DM's history.

#74 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 01 November 2003 - 21:46

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
(....)
Holger, are you sure that C&G has recreated 3 of the Type C GP cars. (your 6/7/8). I can only find one of these in my reference material. I have e-mailed Dick Crosthwaite and hopefully he will provide confirmation of the correct total. I found and ordered the book 'Der Auto Union Rennwagen', and yes, it will be an expensive lesson.

Mmmhhh I'm sure there is one car in Wolfsburg, one car in Ingolstadt (while another one is on the track). So I'm sure there were built two by C&G (and one for tracks - may they exchange them, cause it's really expensive to run those cars).
And BTW: Don't believe everything in this book, it's 23 years old and many of those speculations are now very well documentated in their real facts.


Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
Holger/Dolomite, In spite of the identification of the NEC car as the DM original, and I generally agree that this is correct, I am still intrigued by the painted Type C GP in Dolomite's photo as all other info that I have says the DM car was bare metal in both incarnations. Dolomite's photo, along with the Bill Boddy reference tells me that this is incorrect. Aldo's photos, and the book referenced by Holger will help improve my understanding of the DM's history.


It is the original DM car, cause there was no other C-Type available at that time! The last original C-Typs went to russia in 1945, or were used as basic material for the Hillclimbers in the 30s or were used as bodies for the first D-Typs for Reims 1938.

Dennis, it's necessary that you'll get an overview on all builded cars since 1934 and what happend to them, to understand, that AU used realy every part to built up a newer car. Therefore we couldn't discuss concrete cars! Without some streamliners or hillclimbers or exhibition cars.

#75 Dennis Hockenbury

Dennis Hockenbury
  • Member

  • 657 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 01 November 2003 - 22:59

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Dennis, it's necessary that you'll get an overview on all builded cars since 1934 and what happend to them, to understand, that AU used realy every part to built up a newer car. Therefore we couldn't discuss concrete cars! Without some streamliners or hillclimbers or exhibition cars.

I am indeed trying to learn everything I can about these cars. And you have been an invaluable resource in my quest to learn more about this. My sincere thanks.

I do understand your point about how AU employed an interchangable component and car configuration approach during their racing life, and how the various parts unearthed over the years have been incorporated into the various restorations and recreations.

#76 aldo

aldo
  • Member

  • 135 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 03 November 2003 - 13:42

Sorry for the delay, you guys. I do hope to have the photos properly accessible. If the link doesn't work, you may try to address each single photo at:
www.aisastoryauto.it/Pub/
then adding, just after the http://www.aisastory...t/Pub/index.htm
fot1.jpg
fot2.jpg
etc.

Some notes on the captions:
1. The place is in Holland. In the original print one sees cleary the Dutch flags and the letters KNAC (Royal Dutch Automobile Club). The car is in post-Avus trim, as it could be seen from the hinges on wheel covers and the sheet of aluminum closing the big hole cut in the rear left fender for cooling tyres. The driver looks like being Bernd Rosemeyer, thus dating the photo to Summer 1937. Any clue or explanation?
2. It's a piece of cake to identify the charming young lady at the wheel and the place of the photo. The side of the front tyre has clearly Continental on it.
3. Deutsches Museum P-Wagen with the body still in polished aluminum, as showed in 1955.
4-6. Deutsches Museum P-Wagen as it was in 1978. Tyres and threads can be clearly seen.
7. Deutsches Museum P-Wagen like it was when given away by AU. It means that the cut-away body went lost in the years. I can hardly believe that it suffered bombinbg damage because the frame end the engine were/are still with us, without too heavy a sign of reconstruction. Aluminum was precoius in the war yeras: maybe, they scrapped the body for contributing to the war effort, while, by wise thought, they retained the items impohttp://www.aisastoryauto.it/Pub/index.htm ssible to be rebuilt. The document is a photocopy of an original AU press kit for the 1939 racing season.

#77 aldo

aldo
  • Member

  • 135 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 03 November 2003 - 13:44

Don't ask me why, yet the full URL has been cut. The complete one, pointing to the list of the photos, is:
www.aisastoryauto.it/Pub/index.htm

Good luck.

#78 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 November 2003 - 13:59

Aldo, thanks a lot for those pics.

Here are my comments:
#1. Isn't that Zandvoort 1939, where AU runs some demonstration rounds for the dutch Auto Union importer? Driver was Stuck, although the driver on the picture couldn't be Stuck, may it's Hasse. Beside the car with hat is Dr. Feuereissen.

#2. It's Ernst von Delius' car, which could be easy identified by the name at the side of the car. Could be South Africa 1937.

#3. This should be 1955? Impossible. The exhibition body was damaged during the war. Afterwards no new body was built. This picture must be the taken in 1979/89, when the body was built up new by Audi in Neckarsulm.
#4/5/6 These pictures show the car in the Deutsches Museum after the war, until the new body was put on the naked chassis like in #3

#7 Shows the donated car by Auto Union with the display body for the Deutsches Museum in 1937.

#79 Dennis Hockenbury

Dennis Hockenbury
  • Member

  • 657 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 03 November 2003 - 14:49

Great photos Aldo. Many, many thanks.

Advertisement

#80 aldo

aldo
  • Member

  • 135 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 03 November 2003 - 17:44

Sorry: it was a typo. The polished aluminum body dates back to 1995 and not 1955. The car was displayed as such in Pebble Beach.

Zandvoort 1939: it could be, yet the patch on the rear left fender wasn't at all discernible on the two bodies used in October 1937 Rekordwoche, which was after Avusrennen and before the 1939 exhibition. Did they re-open and re-fix the cooling cuts? Why?

#81 René de Boer

René de Boer
  • Member

  • 400 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 03 November 2003 - 21:48

Originally posted by Holger Merten
#3. This should be 1955? Impossible. The exhibition body was damaged during the war. Afterwards no new body was built. This picture must be the taken in 1979/89, when the body was built up new by Audi in Neckarsulm.


To me, the location in the background looks like the Audi head office in Ingolstadt (Vorstandsgebäude). I took a picture of the Wanderer Stromlinie there this summer.

BTW, the October issue of Italian classic car magazine, Ruoteclassiche, has an excellent 20 page special about the Auto Union GP-cars, including a superb fold-out cutaway drawing. There is a list of all the Auto Union race cars / replicas, that says the following:

From "Ruoteclassiche"
- "Bergrennwagen" 1938-1939 (original) Museum Mobile Ingolstadt
- "Stromlinienwagen" 1937 (replica) Musum Mobile Ingolstadt
- "P-Wagen Typ C" 1935 (original-replica), Deutsches Museum
- "Bergwagen" 1938-1939 (replica) museum Riga (Latvia)

The following cars are being exhibited by Audi at important events:
- Typ C 1936-1937 (replica), Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt
- Typ D 1939 (replica), Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt
- Typ D 1938 (original), Audi Tradition, Ingolstadt

The following cars are "private":
- Typ D 1939 (original) coll. Karassik, Florida
- Typ D 1938 (ex Collin Crabbe), sold by Christies at Pebble Beach 1990, location currently unknown
- Type A 1934 (replica) D'Ieteren Frères, Bruxelles


The ex-Collin Crabbe car is probably the car now standing in Germany somewhere. But which one is the 1938 Typ D original owned by Audi Tradition? That's new to me...

#82 VWV

VWV
  • Member

  • 279 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 03 November 2003 - 22:04

I have slowly been educating myself on the history of Auto Union racing cars and their fate on the internet and the best article I have found on the history of thier re-discovery and reconstruction is this one by Don Sherman of Car & Driver magazine. http://www.caranddri...5&page_number=1

AUTO REUNION Recapturing Auto Union's lost glories took three decades of creative sleuthing and Audi's unlimited benevolence.BY DON SHERMAN March 2001

On a dreary night shortly after World War II ended, a freight train rumbled through a darkened station in Zwickau, Saxony, en route to Moscow a thousand miles to the east. Once the pride of Germany's industrial might, the region bordering Czechoslovakia and Poland lay in ruin and at the mercy of the occupying Soviet forces.Those Red Army troops were ordered to seize everything of value in Saxony as war reparations. What was left of factories that manufactured Audi, DKW, Horch, and Wanderer automobiles, then Wehrmacht vehicles, was uprooted and carted off by the Soviets. Buildings were stripped of windows, doors, and light switches. Some 28,000 machine tools were scavenged. But one or two rail cars contained plunder of inestimable value: 18 of the most advanced race cars ever constructed for Grand Prix, mountain-climb, and speed-record competitions. During Grand Prix racing's 1934-39 "Age of Titans," Auto Union battled arch-rival Mercedes-Benz, and lesser foes such as Scuderia Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, and Delahaye, at dozens of venues across Europe and North Africa. The two Reich-supported German teams flung their silver arrows into the record books like Zeus and Jupiter in a Wagnerian game of darts. If any six-year span in motorsports deserves the appellation "epic," it is this one. The cars were engineered by the era's brightest minds and driven by men with heroic combinations of courage and cunning. (See "Auto Union Registry" sidebar.)Mercedes' heritage -- its archives and the most significant silver-starred racers -- was preserved by the luck of the Yalta Plan, which drew new borders that put Stuttgart in the Allied Zone. Auto Union was less fortunate. Almost all its assets were located in what became the eastern occupation zone. What war's fury didn't destroy fell into Soviet hands. The coup de grace came in 1948 when the Soviet Military Administration removed the Auto Union name from the German trade register. For decades, Auto Union partisans had little tangible evidence that the mighty mid-engined machines ever roamed European tracks. The truly faithful clung to the hope that team cars might still exist in the U.S.S.R. Doug Nye, a noted racing journalist and Auto Union enthusiast, diligently investigated survivor rumors until he found credible evidence that such hearsay could be true. One Soviet engineer he located recalled, "I was in the first team to reach Chemnitz [site of Auto Union's headquarters] and Zwickau. We found the cars' hiding places at a nearby mine. Our orders were to return them to Moscow for investigation of design and technology. We shipped them packed into rail cars like sardines." Upon arrival in Moscow, the cars were distributed to engine makers and technical centers in hopes of improving the crude state of the U.S.S.R.'s motor-vehicle industry. Auto Union's brilliant chief engineer, Robert Eberan von Eberhorst, was offered employment to nurture a planned Soviet motorsports program, but he declined.For more than two decades, Auto Union fortunes suffered. The worst fear was that the Soviets had grown weary of the technically interesting toys and discarded them as useless artifacts. Several cars probably were destroyed. Then, suddenly, in the early 1970s, one Auto Union race car surfaced in Prague, Czechoslovakia, initiating the most remarkable renaissance in motorsports history. A retired Czech race driver named Pohl sold the 1938 V-12 D-type he held to Hubertus Count Donhoff, a prominent German who had hopes of presenting the car as a museum centerpiece. The major surprise was that the car was not one of the 18 team cars packed into rail cars by Soviet troops. Rather, it turned out to be a promotional car built by the factory for use at dealerships. Since it was never bound for a racetrack, this car's driveline was assembled with engine and gearbox cases empty of their internal parts. Donhoff mounted a search for the missing components and even approached Porsche Engineering for assistance. Following three years of fruitless effort, he relinquished his dream of owning a fire-breathing Auto Union and sought a buyer.

Enter Kerry Payne, a wealthy California entrepreneur with a fascination for early single-seat race cars. "One day," Payne recalled, "a broker called me to say he had something really interesting -- a prewar Auto Union race car. I was skeptical but he was persistent. After endless beating around the bush, he agreed to show me the car in West Germany.
"The car looked legitimate and documents were produced to help convince me it wasn't stolen, but I soon discovered that the engine and gearbox were empty shells. The seller characterized that detail as a 'linguistic misunderstanding.' Eventually, he admitted he had lost heart in the project. When he begged me to take a white elephant off his hands, I trusted him and bought the car.
"I shipped the Auto Union back to England, took it apart to find out exactly what was missing, and started sleuthing all over East Germany, offering rewards for information. Finally, a guy showed me pictures of a dual-supercharged Auto Union V-12 engine stored in a barn.
"The problem was getting that treasure across the border. I was told that the Communist government doesn't worry about privately held merchandise until a value is attached. But if a sale or exchange transpires, the seller can wind up in a lot of trouble.
"After pondering that situation for a while, I asked authorities if it would be possible to bring something into the country, then back out again. The answer was yes, as long as there's justification and the material is stamped and registered. So I returned to England, filled my hollow engine and gearbox with heavy tractor parts, and matched the two engines' external appearance using photos of the East German engine as my guide." Payne was about to perpetrate a grand shell game: his static display engine in exchange for a complete V-12.
"Border guards were told that my engine was going to a technical institute in Leipzig for analysis. The person who had its replacement was, in fact, employed there. A few well-placed bribes helped smooth the transactions.
"Once the swapped engine was extracted, transported to Colin Crabbe's shop in England, and dismantled, it proved to be a fantastic piece of engineering -- full of thousands of needle bearings. I had it reassembled and adapted a Hewland transaxle in place of the missing gearbox." Payne's not-so-plausible cover story was that the Auto Union team had left this engine under a bench in England after a race at Donington in the fall of 1938.
In 1979, Payne extended an offer to Phil Hill to drive the car for a Road &Track salon. In the January 1980 feature that followed, Hill was suitably impressed by the D-type's power and handling prowess. But he neglected to share all of his experience. There was no mention of the broken connecting rod that ventilated the Auto Union's cylinder block. Payne blamed neither Hill nor Crabbe, who built the engine, but the thrown rod was the last straw for Payne. He sold his Auto Union and continued chasing various rumors he had gathered during sleuthing missions inside the Soviet Union.
Payne recalled, "While tracking down gearboxes, I saw photos of cars under tarps in junkyards and heard rumors that a streamliner still existed. After locating two gearboxes, extracting them required more than a year and the assistance of a Frenchman with a Latvian wife.

"Margus-Hans Kuuse, a helpful Estonian journalist, and I traveled to Latvia to inspect a V-16 car that was offered in exchange for my building them a museum. I said never mind to that deal, but the trail did lead to two more D-type cars inside the Soviet Union."
Payne was nearly double-crossed by the D-type transaction. "I shook hands to buy both cars but found out from the low-level KGB agent posing as my Intourist guide that the seller had no intention of delivering them because he was also dealing with other bidders."
The competing bidders were Paul and Barbara Karassik, two European-born Floridians, who succeeded in recovering two nearly complete D-type machines after a quest that lasted more than a decade. The Karassiks, however, won't talk for publication about the intrigue they experienced, preferring to save their tale for a book.
Decades earlier, Paul Karassik had witnessed Tazio Nuvolari win the 1939 Yugoslav Grand Prix in what may have been an Auto Union D-type that he would later rescue piece by piece. The key to the Karassiks' success was their fluency in both Russian and German. In addition, they had the means to tour the globe in pursuit of lost racers and to pay handsomely for each shred of information, thanks to their prosperous monument-stone and real-estate businesses. They were also very lucky. Payne obligingly sold the Karassiks one of the gearboxes he had recovered from Latvia.
Phase three of Auto Union's renaissance began with a 1976 distress call to Viktors Kulbergs, president of an antique automobile club in Riga, Latvia. In two weeks, a 16-cylinder Auto Union racer located at the ZIL motorworks was scheduled for destruction as part of a grand work-place cleanup campaign in celebration of Lenin's birthday. Kulbergs hurried to Moscow, secured the "resolutions" necessary to transfer possession of the car to his club, and commandeered an empty cargo truck destined for Riga. The priceless heirloom was rescued from the scrapper in the nick of time.
In due course, Kulbergs reinstalled the supercharger that had been removed from the V-16, tracked down the huge side-draft Solex carburetor from a Russian who had "borrowed" it for use on his race car, and founded the Riga Motormuseum in 1989 to showcase this prize. After a superficial restoration and some engine work, this car ran briefly on at least two occasions.
Later investigation revealed that the Riga V-16 -- the very car that was offered to Payne -- was something of a C- and D-type hybrid. The 6.0-liter C-type engine wore a 1936 date stamp, the gearbox carried 1938 identification, and the nose shape was D-type. Driver Hans Stuck probably piloted this short-wheelbase, dual-rear-tire machine to his fourth Deutsche Bergmeister ("German hill-climb master") championship in 1938. Hermann P. Muller drove the car in 1939. For the final mountain climb before the war, Muller benefited from two significant updates -- a D-type de Dion rear axle and four-leading-shoe brakes. This car was a monumental find -- the only complete and original V-16 Auto Union with a competition pedigree -- and it would soon serve a crucial Rosetta-stone role in the unfolding renaissance pageant.
After watching quietly from the sidelines while privateers facilitated the westward movement of found Auto Union treasures, Audi finally entered the picture in 1995. Audi acquired the Riga V-16 mountain climber in exchange for an exact clone of this original and an undisclosed amount of money. Not coincidentally, Kulbergs later became the Latvian importer for Audi automobiles.
To refurbish the original and create the clone, Audi delivered the V-16 Auto Union to the Crosthwaite & Gardiner (C&G) shops at Hogge Farm near the village of Buxted in East Sussex, England. During the second half of the 16th century, Ralph Hogge supplied cast-iron cannons and ammunition to the British Crown from this location. Dick Crosthwaite and John Gardiner joined forces in 1966 and located their race-car engineering operations at Hogge Farm in 1969. C&G's list of accomplishments includes nine Le Mans campaigns for drivers Alain de Cadenet and Chris Craft, repair of the broken Kerry Payne Auto Union in the early 1980s, and construction of two complete Auto Union D-type racers out of the baskets of parts the Karassiks extracted from Russia. Audi became familiar with the scope and quality of C&G's work while witnessing demonstration runs of the two D-types at a 1994 Nurburgring historic event. That contact set wheels in motion. The following year Audi shipped its V-16 to C&G for restoration and duplication. After six years of negotiation, Audi was finally able to purchase the Karassiks' 1938 D-type in 1996.
In spite of years of mishandling and neglect, Audi's V-16 racer was in reasonable shape. The list of broken or corroded parts included cylinder liners, the large magnesium oil sump, and the magnesium brake backing plates. The supercharger's oil-metering unit was missing, the camshaft was scored, and the carburetor body was cracked. Once the car had been completely dismantled, C&G worked with its pattern makers and foundry subcontractors to create the new magnesium and aluminum castings needed for the original and its clone.
One large room at C&G that once housed cattle stalls now contains 50 or more machine tools ranging from World War II lend-lease mills to the latest computer-controlled machining centers. Gardiner is especially proud of his homemade cam grinder. A wide assortment of lathes, gear cutters, borers, broaches, and shapers gives C&G the ability to handle the most challenging machining operations in-house. There are two dynamometers in the engine test cell, but neither has the capacity to handle the V-16's ferocious 630 pound-feet of torque developed at only 2500 rpm.
The task of repairing the dented and Bondo-filled aluminum bodywork and creating an accurate duplicate shell was assigned to Keith Roach Manufacturing, another modest-appearing fabrication shop located 90 miles to the west near Southampton. Roach lives in a 16th-century cottage on premises where the garage space is several times larger than the living quarters. Gary Yates is Roach's resident master metal artist.
Yates apprenticed in railway repair shops and moved on to aerospace work before joining the Roach works 13 years ago. Although he modestly describes his craft as "shape work," he's truly a Michelangelo of metal benders. Yates passes an 18-gauge (0.04-inch thick) sheet of annealed aircraft aluminum through an English wheel -- a pair of hardened steel rollers supported by a large rigid frame -- to create the compound curves needed to skin a race car. In essence, each two-dimensional sheet is converted to a three-dimensional shape by stretching inner areas of the panel while the edges remain untouched. It takes a degree of hand and eye coordination found in few mortals. After the panels are joined with oxyacetylene welds, Yates's sculpture is as smooth and perfect as polished marble.
"We stripped the V-16 car down to the last rivet," recalled Yates. "Once you take something apart, you get a feel for the details and the frame of mind of the original craftsmen. It was a real blessing to have that car and a better starting point than working from period photographs. I made patterns from the original panels to duplicate them for the museum's clone. The original panels were then straightened and restored for reuse on Audi's car."
While Yates crafted the two bodies, two-dozen artisans at C&G built up a pair of engines, restored the original chassis, and fabricated a second frame and all the running gear needed for the clone to be returned to Latvia. In just over two years, both of these monumental jobs were complete. Hans Stuck Jr. wowed vintage fans with several demonstration runs in the Audi-owned original at the 1997 Goodwood Festival of Speed hill-climb event. Later that year, the clone circulated a track in Latvia as part of its ceremonial return to the Riga Motormuseum.
This was merely the beginning of the third and most fruitful phase of the Auto Union renaissance, which is still under way. Impressed by the combined C&G and Keith Roach effort, Audi wrote a check to carry on the continuation process with the aim of stocking its heritage collection with truly impressive hardware. In addition to the restored D-type Grand Prix racer and C- and D-type mountain climber, the boys from Britain were commissioned to construct two running C-type GP cars (one destined for VW's museum in Wolfsburg, Germany) and a fully functional replica of the streamliner that Bernd Rosemeyer drove to record speeds of more than 250 mph in 1937.
In 1999 Audi's Belgian importer, S.A. D'Ieteren N.V., raised its hand to join the fun. D'Ieteren sought its own continuation Auto Union for publicity purposes and gallery display. (In business since 1805, D'Ieteren has manufactured everything from horse-drawn carriages to Studebakers and has a collection of 170 historic automobiles.) Audi gave the D'Ieteren organization its blessing with a couple of provisos attached. Their car had to be built by C&G and be available to Audi Tradition for occasional exhibitions and demonstrations. But the most interesting stipulation was which Auto Union. To maximize the scope of the newly reconstituted fleet of prewar racers, Audi urged D'Ieteren to commission a replica of the first series of Auto Unions, designated the A-type, that competed in nine 1934 GP events. Using period photos of Hans Stuck's French Grand Prix machine as his guide, Yates began crafting body panels in the fall of 1999.
When the A-type is completed this spring, it will serve as the alpha of the collection -- the machine with which professor Porsche commenced the Age of Titans. That makes the streamliner the omega of this resurrection, although strictly speaking, it was the penultimate Auto Union. Yates characterized the streamliner project: "[It's] like building an aircraft. Huge skin panels are riveted to an internal framework of support panels. I started with full-size patterns drawn by hand. Then we made a wooden buck with transverse sections spaced every 200 millimeters [8 inches] at the ends and 400 millimeters [16 inches] through the middle. To learn how the internal supports and ducts were made, I actually studied photos of the aftermath of Rosemeyer's fatal crash. The panels had to be worked very carefully to get the light lines exactly right. Start to finish, the streamliner body required nine months of effort."
Yates's panels flow like quicksilver. Audi's legacy, lost for decades, now shines brightly in the expertly crafted light lines of a job well done.

#83 Jonas

Jonas
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 03 November 2003 - 22:16

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The 2-stage supercharged Karassik car was indeed sold to a current - if occasional - Historic racer and is currently for sale once more. It is on display in the Donington Collection at Donington Park if anybody wants to have a close view.



I do by no means want to challenge Mr. Nye on this, but I heard (God knows from where, it was quite some time ago..) that Karassik had sold BOTH his cars. Anyway it seems that they sold the 1939 car (with two-stage S/C). So this does NOT correspond well with the article in "Ruoteclassiche", quoted in the post by René de Boer, claiming that Karassik still owns the 1939 car.

I trust Mr. Nye's information more than the article mentioned and DEFINITELY more than the rumours I've heard. So if Karassik still has the 1938 car, has it been LENDED to Audi or what?

It shouldn't be too difficult to find out who ownes what car, but so far I haven't succeeded :|

#84 Jonas

Jonas
  • Member

  • 221 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 03 November 2003 - 22:40

Originally posted by VWV
..After six years of negotiation, Audi was finally able to purchase the Karassiks' 1938 D-type in 1996..

Well, this just seems to add to the confusion..

But the article quoted was really interesting reading! :up:

Gosh! Reading about the people working with these cars really makes me envious! I would PAY to work with them!

#85 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 04 November 2003 - 00:32

Originally posted by René de Boer


Nice to see the quattro with yellow headlights, thought this was only de rigeur in France... And the Talbot stand in the background, with the Talbot/Matra Rancho and the Solara on display. Hardly ever get to see any of those cars anymore these days, all swallowed up by rust!


I believe the white urq in the picture is actually the same one that was shown on the Geneva Motorshow in 1980. There were more yellow-headlight ones running around Europe in those days, possibly because the color just looks sooooo good :cool:

#86 Dennis Hockenbury

Dennis Hockenbury
  • Member

  • 657 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 04 November 2003 - 00:42

Interesting news article on the 1939 AU Type D at the Donington Collection.

Posted Image

Here

#87 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 04 November 2003 - 00:42

Originally posted by Holger Merten
1939, where AU runs some demonstration rounds for the dutch Auto Union importer? Driver was Stuck, although the driver on the picture couldn't be Stuck, may it's Hasse. Beside the car with hat is Dr. Feuereissen.


It definately is Zandvoort 1939. I have a very crude photocopy of the exact same picture, it is in a file in the Chemnitz Auto Union archives, with more pictures from the same 1939 event and some documents to go with them. One of those other pictures, taken on the same day, shows Prince Bernhard (husband to the Dutch Princess Juliana, who was Queen until 1980) admiring the streamliner and talking to Stuck.

#88 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 04 November 2003 - 08:39

Originally posted by René de Boer


To me, the location in the background looks like the Audi head office in Ingolstadt (Vorstandsgebäude). I took a picture of the Wanderer Stromlinie there this summer.


Yes, indeed it is. this is the seventies look, the architecture was modified in 1992. And it's in front of the main entrance. The former "C-portal".

Originally posted by René de Boer


BTW, the October issue of Italian classic car magazine, Ruoteclassiche, has an excellent 20 page special about the Auto Union GP-cars, including a superb fold-out cutaway drawing. There is a list of all the Auto Union race cars / replicas, that says the following:



Thank ou for the tip.

Originally posted by René de Boer


The ex-Collin Crabbe car is probably the car now standing in Germany somewhere. But which one is the 1938 Typ D original owned by Audi Tradition? That's new to me...


This is one of the two Karassik cars Audi got in exchange for their engagement in the restoration of both cars. I posted it already:


4. A 1938 Typ D (found in Russia by the Karassiks)
5. A 1939 Typ D (found in Russia by the Karassiks)
Both cars restorated by C&G with the help of Audi, one is owned by the Karassiks, the other one in the hands of Audi, but I think not sold to Audi, but there for the exhibition, that was the prize for helping the Karassiks with the restoration)



#89 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,705 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 04 November 2003 - 09:02

Originally posted by Brun


It definately is Zandvoort 1939. I have a very crude photocopy of the exact same picture, it is in a file in the Chemnitz Auto Union archives, with more pictures from the same 1939 event and some documents to go with them. One of those other pictures, taken on the same day, shows Prince Bernhard (husband to the Dutch Princess Juliana, who was Queen until 1980) admiring the streamliner and talking to Stuck.


That's on the same event where MvB did a demo run in a W154... What a treat that must have been!

#90 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 04 November 2003 - 09:02

But there still seems some confusion about whether the Audi car is the ex-Karassik 1938 car or the ex-Karassik 1939 car

VWV
Thanks for posting the chronological story

#91 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 04 November 2003 - 09:25

Seems that the 1938 Typ D belongs to Audi, while the other one was sold to England.

Have a look at this German page page.

Did Tom Wheatcroft buy the 1939 Typ D for his GP-collection?

#92 aldo

aldo
  • Member

  • 135 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:15

Thanks, René, for the "excellent" rating to my feature on AU in October issue of Ruoteclassiche.
I do think that my list of today's AU has a high degree or reliability. To the best of my knowledge, one of the Karassik cars is still in the US, probably in Karassik's ownership. The other one is at Audi.
While the Karassik cars are rated as "original", they went through heavy reconstruction by C&G. No 100% "original" AU is with us, today : the closest one is Audi's Bergwagen.

Holger, thanks for the details on the Zandvoort 1939 car: who's the driver? Yet, how fits the cooling issue within the whole framework?

#93 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:31

The zandvoort car is the 1937 SRA body and not the Avus body. Therefor it's simpel to understand why this picture doen'st show the Avus cooling details.

BTW Aldo, what about the Typ C in the Museum mobile, if you compare my list of existing AUs in this thread, you will see, that it's more or less the same, than yours, but you missed the Typ C of Wolfsburg? Why? :confused:

#94 René de Boer

René de Boer
  • Member

  • 400 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 04 November 2003 - 12:11

Originally posted by aldo
Thanks, René, for the "excellent" rating to my feature on AU in October issue of Ruoteclassiche.


My pleasure, I really enjoyed it. Didn't know you were a TNF-member as well. It's a small world, again. Are you on the Audi Imperator trip next week? We might catch up there!

#95 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 04 November 2003 - 12:12

Does anyone have the engine numbers on the Karassik and Prague Typ D's? Would be real nice to check them against the list from the NSKK archives, to see if those were actually certified racing cars.

I just sent Mattijs a draft of a small article to put on 8W - it's been lying around with me for to long - that I wrote to give an overview of all existing Auto Unions. Of course, all your comments and corrections are more than welcome.

#96 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 04 November 2003 - 12:31

Originally posted by Brun
Does anyone have the engine numbers on the Karassik and Prague Typ D's? Would be real nice to check them against the list from the NSKK archives, to see if those were actually certified racing cars.

I just sent Mattijs a draft of a small article to put on 8W - it's been lying around with me for to long - that I wrote to give an overview of all existing Auto Unions. Of course, all your comments and corrections are more than welcome.


Brun, dont't forget the Karassik car were built up from some parts found in Russia. So we can't realy talk about real GP car. That was not much Paul and Barbara Karassik brought out from Russia. But it was much work for C&G to complete those parts to two complete racing cars, a 1938 and a 1939 version.

#97 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 04 November 2003 - 12:35

Holger, I know, but if the engine have numbers, then we can trace them back. Would be a nice thing to do, since I don't think anyone has ever seen the list in the Berlin archives before and bothered to see which parts the Karassiks actually got and from whic cars they were. I mean, wouldn't it be great if we could actually construct a history that shows where those cars (or engines) raced?

#98 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 04 November 2003 - 12:42

It would be great to know if these engines are orginal ones. But because AU had no list with the numbers of their bodies, engines or gear boxes and in which car they were used and when, it's a job, which seems to me s l'art pour l'art.

#99 aldo

aldo
  • Member

  • 135 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 04 November 2003 - 13:14

Originally posted by René de Boer


My pleasure, I really enjoyed it. Didn't know you were a TNF-member as well. It's a small world, again. Are you on the Audi Imperator trip next week? We might catch up there!



A trip called Imperator should really be something. Sorry, I'm too plebean to take part in it!!!
I wonder if you can provide some more details on it.
Thanks.

Advertisement

#100 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,705 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 04 November 2003 - 13:21

Originally posted by Brun
I just sent Mattijs a draft of a small article to put on 8W - it's been lying around with me for to long - that I wrote to give an overview of all existing Auto Unions. Of course, all your comments and corrections are more than welcome.


I hope this is of any help to you all...;)

And lots of :clap: to Brun of course!