Jump to content


Photo

Jeeps in the Mille Miglia


  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#1 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,047 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 30 August 2003 - 23:50

I saw a reference somewhere to a team of Jeeps competing in the Mille Miglia but can't find it.
A quick Google turned up a reference to an Alfa Romeo jeep type machine taking a class win but not much else.

Can anybody enlighten me please?

Advertisement

#2 gdecarli

gdecarli
  • Member

  • 1,038 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 31 August 2003 - 22:35

I found two photos that show both Costa-Verga on their Alfa Romeo Matta:

Posted Image
(taken from www.tybrainstorm.de/home/matta-2.html)

Posted Image
(Alfa Romeo 1900 M 'Matta', taken from www.cuoresportivo.pl, a Polski website)

At Mille Miglia 1952 there were four cars in Military class: two Alfa Romeo 1900 M 'Matta' (AR51 - AR52) and two Fiat Campagnola: here following their results:

114. 4M A. Costa - F. Verga (Alfa Romeo 1900 M 'Matta') 16:54:05 (4:44:20 later than winner, Giovanni Bracco)
157. 1M A. Marletta - E. Izzo (Fiat Campagnola) 17:35:55
217. 2M G. Livoti - A. Pagnone (Fiat Campagnola) 18:46:09

OUT. 3M Beltramini - Bruno (Alfa Romeo 1900 M 'Matta')

(results from www.classicscars.com)



Surely more info could be find on the book "Alfa Romeo - AR 51 - AR 52. Alfa “Matta”", but of course I haven't in my hand. Its reference is:

Alfa Romeo AR 51 - AR 52 - Alfa “Matta”
Authors: Franco Melotti / Enrico Checchinato
ISBN: 88-7911-294-5
Publishing date: 2003
Price €: 25.00

(from www.giorgionadaeditore.it; website in Italian and English; book in Italian only)

I can't find anything more about Fiat Campagnola at Mille Miglia.

Ciao,
Guido

#3 Patrick Italiano

Patrick Italiano
  • Member

  • 412 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 01 September 2003 - 13:58

Guido already replied comprehensively, so I can only add that it was the only year, as far as I know, where a Military class was open. It's related to the hard concurrence between the Alfa 1900M and the Fiat Campagnola.
Mille Miglia AR 1900 M were quite stock, except a very basic tune-up. They maintained an average speed rather close to their maximum speed :eek: :eek: , and the DNF Alfa just ran out of the road :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The quoted book is very well done, for those interested. :rolleyes:

#4 gdecarli

gdecarli
  • Member

  • 1,038 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 01 September 2003 - 14:29

The real competition was not Mille Miglia, but military market: at beginning of 1950s Italian Army needed lots of jeeps and it had to decide between Fiat Campagnola and Alfa Romeo Matta (they used only national cars); Mille Miglia was a good exhibition for promoting the two jeeps.
According to website I visited yesterday, Alfa Romeo was better but much more expensive, so it lasted only few years, while Fiat Campagnola went on (with different versions, of course) until 1986 and it was - apart from few 2000 Alfa Romeo Matta - the only jeep used by Italian Army till then.

Ciao,
Guido

#5 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 37,216 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 01 September 2003 - 15:17

Originally posted by gdecarli
The real competition was not Mille Miglia, but military market: at beginning of 1950s Italian Army needed lots of jeeps and it had to decide between Fiat Campagnola and Alfa Romeo Matta (they used only national cars); Mille Miglia was a good exhibition for promoting the two jeeps.

This is utterly fantastic, would that the British Army showed such imagination...Challenger Tanks on the RAC Rally...

Were Costa/Verga et al soldiers or more regular drivers?

And that's a decent time for such a big hunk of iron.

#6 provapr

provapr
  • Member

  • 37 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 01 September 2003 - 16:47

Well, the British Army DO occasionally run a team of Land Rovers in the British Rally Championship. I think there was an article on the team recently in Motorsport News. I think each vehicle's driver and co-driver have to help with costs.

#7 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,880 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 01 September 2003 - 21:48

There was a British Army team in the London-Munich event of 1974 as well, and probably in other Marathons.

There was a conflict of interest, however, and one car wasn't used... Marinas with Rover V8s, by the way... and it went on to become the leading sports sedan in Western Australia under the guidance of Gordon Mitchell and the ministrations of Mike Risebrow in the workshop. It needed a lot of that once the turbocharger was added...

The conflict of interest? Oh, yeah, some kind of ruckus somewhere led to some of the team being sent off on official duties... I'm not sure that some of them out there mid-event didn't get called away too...

#8 gdecarli

gdecarli
  • Member

  • 1,038 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 01 September 2003 - 23:35

Originally posted by ensign14
Were Costa/Verga et al soldiers or more regular drivers?

Yes, of course, they were Capitano (Costa?) and Tenente (Verga?). I'm not expert in military degrees and their translation; they should be Captain and Lieutenant, at least according to Logos.

Originally posted by ensign14
And that's a decent time for such a big hunk of iron.

Well, it was not so big :) , even if I don't have lenght and width, as the only technical info I find are on www.4x4storiciitaliani.com (in Italian).
I think that Fiat Campagnola was more or less as big as Alfa Romeo Matta; Campagnola was 3.64 m long and 1.48 m wide. More technical info on Carabinieri's Car (in Italian) and www.carsfromitaly.com (In English).

Posted Image
Fiat Campagnola AR51, from www.carsfromitaly.com

Italian jeeps were always quite small because on our mountains we have very narrow roads, many of them (in North-East) built for First World War to be used by donkeys.
For the same reason, the best-sold car on our mountains is - still now - Fiat Panda 4x4: of course it is not a true off road, but it is very small! (Technical info on www.carsfromitaly.com)

Ciao,
Guido

#9 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,047 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 02 September 2003 - 21:16

Thanks Guido

Isn't the average speed incredible - 59mph / 95 kph

As a comparison a Citroen 2CV took 18hrs 24 min (53.9/86.75) and a Mercedes diesel 17hrs 12min (58.8/94.65) to win their classes in 1955

#10 Henk

Henk
  • Member

  • 223 posts
  • Joined: July 03

Posted 02 September 2003 - 21:43

Guido - Have you heard of the Italian rally driver Veglia?

With a real Jeep, he was one of the three joint winners of the 16,000 km Algiers-Capetown Rally of 1951:

- Veglia (Willys Jeep)
- Lapalu (Land Rover)
- Monnier (Delahaye ‘Coloniale’ pick-up)

A number of European works and military teams tested their new Jeep-inspired cars and other cross-country vehicles in this long-distance endurance trial. For them, Veglia’s achievement must have been a very unpleasant surprise.
:D His old Jeep was a US Army surplus WWII-vehicle.

#11 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,880 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 02 September 2003 - 21:52

Jeeps hit the circuits in Australia, in various forms...

I found one listed in the White's Hill entries circa 1948... rang a phone number that coincided with the name and suburb listed and found the owner a few years ago. It was standard... war surplus.

There was one with a weird body and choice of either front wheel drive or 4WD disposal of its Ford V8 engine used by Snow Sefton around Brisbane events in the post-war period... note that rear wheel drive wasn't an option!

And, of course, there was one that - but for a lack of rubber - would have won the 1947 Australian Grand Prix...

Posted Image

Apparently no photos exist of it going anywhere without oversteer... no wonder the tyres gave up! I wonder if Ray Mitchell is still alive?

#12 gdecarli

gdecarli
  • Member

  • 1,038 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 03 September 2003 - 12:21

Originally posted by Henk
Guido - Have you heard of the Italian rally driver Veglia?
With a real Jeep, he was one of the three joint winners of the 16,000 km Algiers-Capetown Rally of 1951:

I don't know Veglia and (unfortunately) I'm not expert in off road.

Thanks to Google, I discovered that also Campagnola had an African Adventure:

Posted Image
Fiat Campagnola, Raid Algiers - Cape Town - Algiers, December 1951-January 1952, from www.4x4storiciitaliani.com
Click for a bigger picture


I don't know if it was the same Raid you mentioned. Campagnola set a world record from Cape Town to Algiers (so it should be second half of the raid) in 11 days, 4 hours and 54 minutes. I could't find any more info, including if it was done by militaries or not. Looking at the photo I don't think so, but of course this is my only opinion.

According to the same website (but on Matta's page), Alfa Romeo Matta was used for expeditions in Mato Grosso (Brazil), Africa, Asia and in 1968 it ran raid Rome-Beijing, but again this page doesn't mention if they were military expeditions. It speaks about military competition in Switzerland, Spain and Yugoslavia, but (again) with no more details.



If you want a technical info and scketch of both Italian jeep, you can give a look at Carabinieri's car website:

Posted Image
Fiat Campagnola AR51, from Carabinieri's car website (click to enlarge)

Posted Image
ALFA ROMEO 1900/M «MATTA», from Carabinieri's car website




As regards military cars in competition, I found also info about police racing cars (well, to be correct now Italian Polizia is not anymore military) : there are many photo, with no comments, on Police car website (in Italian) : Alfa 2600, Lancia Delta Integrale, Fiat Coupé, Alfa 155 DTM for hillclimbs, Alfa 75 and Alfa 33 but I don't know how they were used (and we are going OT)

Ciao,
Guido

#13 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 37,216 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 03 September 2003 - 13:05

Originally posted by gdecarli
Yes, of course, they were Capitano (Costa?) and Tenente (Verga?). I'm not expert in military degrees and their translation; they should be Captain and Lieutenant, at least according to Logos.

I just love this. Can you imagine the General to these chaps?

'Gentlemen, your next mission is to win the Mille Miglia...your car awaits...'

One of the more pleasurable army duties?

#14 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,047 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 03 September 2003 - 19:27

And in Tanganyika (as it was called then) Arusha garagiste and sometime Safari driver J P Townsend made a special by dropping a V8 into a Land Rover chassis. The result looked very similar to the Oz special that Ray posted.

And in later years Cliff (?) Collinge ran a Range Rover in a couple of Safaris

#15 Henk

Henk
  • Member

  • 223 posts
  • Joined: July 03

Posted 04 September 2003 - 14:55

Guido - The picture shows the civilian Campagnola station wagon of Paolo Butti. Its African adventure took place one year after the Algiers-Capetown Rally.

In the 1950s the trans-Africa record was another challenge for manufacturers of all-terrain cars. Sponsored by Fiat, and accompanied by his wife and two other assistants, Butti drove the car (plus two-wheeled trailer) from Algiers to Capetown in 50 days (bad weather, flooding, ferryboat strikes, various preparations for the return journey). On his way back the Campagnola team attacked the record.

#16 petefenelon

petefenelon
  • Member

  • 4,815 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 04 September 2003 - 15:39

> As regards military cars in competition, I found also info about police racing cars

I've seen at least one ex-Police Vauxhall Carlton rallying in the past - mind you I've also seen a Carlton that had been a taxi in Doncaster out on the RAC!

pete

#17 Henk

Henk
  • Member

  • 223 posts
  • Joined: July 03

Posted 04 September 2003 - 21:49

In the early 1960s, there were Army Driving Championships in Britain.

Here is a picture of a Jeep-like winner that I earlier posted in the Rolls-Royce thread.



Posted Image

RR-engined Austin Champ provides the winning mount for the first British Army Driving Championship at Borden, Hampshire.



#18 dmj

dmj
  • Member

  • 1,956 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 05 September 2003 - 21:04

Originally posted by Henk
Guido - Have you heard of the Italian rally driver Veglia?

With a real Jeep, he was one of the three joint winners of the 16,000 km Algiers-Capetown Rally of 1951:

- Veglia (Willys Jeep)
- Lapalu (Land Rover)
- Monnier (Delahaye ‘Coloniale’ pick-up)

A number of European works and military teams tested their new Jeep-inspired cars and other cross-country vehicles in this long-distance endurance trial. For them, Veglia’s achievement must have been a very unpleasant surprise.
:D His old Jeep was a US Army surplus WWII-vehicle.

What on Earth is Delahaye Coloniale pick-up? A truck presumably? I don't believe Delahaye was into Jeep-like vehicles in 1951? Only later, after merger with Hotchkiss...

#19 Henk

Henk
  • Member

  • 223 posts
  • Joined: July 03

Posted 05 September 2003 - 22:25

Originally posted by dmj
What on Earth is Delahaye Coloniale pick-up? A truck presumably? I don't believe Delahaye was into Jeep-like vehicles in 1951? Only later, after merger with Hotchkiss...

Posted Image

But before the merger with Hotchkiss, Delahaye had also developed their own Jeep-like Voiture Légère de Reconnaissance.

Posted Image

The French Army entered three VLR’s in the Algiers-Capetown Rally, but these didn’t perform as expected.

Advertisement

#20 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,880 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 07 September 2003 - 15:25

I'd imagine the pit stops would have been mighty slow with all those wheel nuts!

#21 Henk

Henk
  • Member

  • 223 posts
  • Joined: July 03

Posted 07 September 2003 - 23:34

Monnier didn’t change tires Posted Image

#22 gdecarli

gdecarli
  • Member

  • 1,038 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 08 May 2004 - 22:01

Originally posted by gdecarli
Fiat Campagnola, Raid Algiers - Cape Town - Algiers, December 1951-January 1952

This car is now in Museo dell'Automobile Carlo Biscaretti di Ruffia in Torino (Italy) and today I took a pic (unfortunately low quality because of darkness), that I have just uploaded in Carlo Biscaretti di Ruffia Museum - Torino (Italy) thread.

Ciao,
Guido

#23 Peter Linsky

Peter Linsky
  • Member

  • 32 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 19 March 2009 - 21:37

Hello all, especially Henk -

Yours is the first and virtually only reference I've been able to turn up concerning the little-known Algiers-Capetown Rally. I am researching the history of a car that ran this event in 1959.

Can you direct me to any information sources about the history of this Rally? I'd love to find an entry list and results for 1959.

Best regards!

PCL
Beaverton OR USA

#24 fbarrett

fbarrett
  • Member

  • 1,000 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 19 March 2009 - 22:42

Friends:

The German army ran Mercedes-Benz "sports cars" in several 1930s rallies, mostly off-road, as I recall.

Frank

#25 Peter Linsky

Peter Linsky
  • Member

  • 32 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 19 March 2009 - 23:04

Thanks, Frank -

Karl Kling won the 1959 rally in a MB 180 Diesel, but I'd like to find a source that discusses the event in more detail.

#26 Henk

Henk
  • Member

  • 223 posts
  • Joined: July 03

Posted 21 March 2009 - 21:50

Peter - I don’t have detailed information about the “IVème Rallye Méditerranée - Le Cap” of 1959.

In which car are you interested? Kling’s Mercedes and a few other cars can be seen in:
http://mercedes-benz...afari in Africa


The event started from Algiers on January 8th.
From an initial field of 28 participants, 16(?) teams reached Cape Town on February 20th.

1. Karl Kling - Rainer Günzler (Mercedes 190 D)
2. Olivier Gendebien - Lucien Bianchi (Citroën DS19)
3(?) Mr. and Ms. Buchmann (Simca Beaulieu)


Other participants who completed the rally:

Vachon - Vignon (Citroën)
Mr. and Ms. Bastin (Simca)
Ms. Pysant - Ms. Largeot (Peugeot)
Mr. and Ms. Gain (Peugeot)
Cochart - Laverny (Peugeot)
Bartscherer - Happekausen (Volkswagen)
Ms. Paolozzi - Bettoja (Porsche)
Fabre - Fabre (Willys)
Ragheb Zaki - Robert (Chevrolet)
Riviere - Horrocks (Land Rover)
Rouighi (Unic truck)
Roussel (Unic truck)
??

[The two trucks took 6th and 7th place]

#27 raceannouncer2003

raceannouncer2003
  • Member

  • 2,225 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 22 March 2009 - 06:27

Saw this at the Mille Miglia last year. I was surprised till I realized it was an Alfa. LIsted as "Alfa Romeo 1900 M AR51 Matta (1951)" Entered by Scuderia Autieri d'Italia. I believe it is from the Museo storico della Motorizzazione Militare in Roma.

Posted Image Posted Image


Vince H.

#28 Kevan

Kevan
  • Member

  • 514 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 22 March 2009 - 11:44

Originally posted by Ray Bell
There was a British Army team in the London-Munich event of 1974 as well, and probably in other Marathons.


Two or three of the BL entries on the 1970 event had military connections. Amongst the Austin Maxi entries, one of the works cars was crewed by a couple of RAF Red Arrows pilots, and the car driven by Prince Michael of Kent, both the Prince and his two co-drivers were serving officers-note the regimental crests on the rear door
http://farm4.static....983c0b6.jpg?v=0

From memory, one of the Special Tuning Landcrabs was a Royal Navy entry, and as you said, I'm sure there were similar entries on the other events.

Talking of Landcrabs, in Tony Gardiner's book RAC Rally Action, there's a shot of the 1800 of Les Dalton/Maurice Potter (car 168) on the 1971 event which seems to have a British Army-style registration number- '12 FJ 18' Anyone know if this was an Army entry of some kind?

#29 RCH

RCH
  • Member

  • 791 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 22 March 2009 - 14:27

I seem to remember that British Army entries were common on '60's RACs. Usually in the same type of car as used as staff cars so "Land Crabs" would have been used.

Somebody mentioned ex-police cars running on the RAC. Anyone remember Kevin Videan's (?) Granada/Consul in about '77? As I recall there was a row over the police siren which had to be "removed". Strange, but I definitely remember hearing a police siren in a Welsh forest that year!

#30 Richard Young

Richard Young
  • Member

  • 78 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 22 March 2009 - 14:54

And, if memory serves, it had a screen strip/sun visor which read "ello ello ello..." :)

#31 RS2000

RS2000
  • Member

  • 2,169 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 22 March 2009 - 18:57

The Videan Consul/Granada failed scrutineering (we were in the queue behind it) on the 77 RAC under a couple of standard regulations and only started because the "Lombard" stripes stickers that were all over the place at Wembley could be used to cover the police stripes. I don't think anyone noticed a siren at the start(and it was probably deliberately re-fitted, since police cars disposed of are normally stripped of such fittings).
I used an ex-police car on a couple of RACs in the 80s (and I certainly didn't "bring the sport into disrepute" by leaving any evidence of the previous existence) and its current owner (only the 3rd ever owner for a 1978 car) finished 8th on the 2007 R.A.C. (as opposed to RAC) in it - it has featured on here.

Les Dalton was best known for using army Minis on the RAC, entered by BAMA.

#32 RCH

RCH
  • Member

  • 791 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 23 March 2009 - 08:01

Memory failure, yes I remember now the problem was with the police stripes, not a siren.

#33 Eric Dunsdon

Eric Dunsdon
  • Member

  • 625 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 23 March 2009 - 13:48

One of the latest models in the BIANCHI cycle range is the 'Matta', named after the Alfa Romeo jeep which was used by the team manager and mechanics to follow the riders on the mountain stages of the Giro d'Italia cycle race. The BIANCHI team car can be seen in many of the pictures taken of the great Fausto Coppi during his winning Giro rides.

#34 Les Dalton

Les Dalton
  • Member

  • 99 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 02 May 2009 - 09:18

Hi Kevan,
Les Dalton here,I have just read the messages regarding my rally Austin 1800 (Landcrab) and Mini that I used on International rallies whilst part of the Army international rally team.
I am in the process of publishing a book which is called FLY ARMY, I gave it this name, because of the height my Alan Allard turbocharged Landrover used to fly when on special stage rallies.
I have some super photographs of my cars taken on various rallies.
I was Army champion driver four times and Nato champion driver twice, by the way, Prince Micheal was in the same regiment as me, the 11th Hussars (PAO) which was the top cavelry regiment in those days.
Do you know how to post pictures on site??? I have some superb action shots of the 1800, mini, and Land rovers.
Does anyone know of a publisher who might be interested in helping to get my book out??? I currently have to find quite a chunk of money to get it out, which unfortunately,I do not have.
I also remember watching Kevin Videon coming through the Sutton park stage of the RAC with the ex Police car, and at that time, all the police bits were still in place, i got to say, rallying way back in the 70s and 80s was absolutely superb, everone had a laugh and got on with the job.
I rememeber haing a whale of time with roger Clark and Jim porter on the 1979 Scottish when I used the Turbocharged Landrover and he was using the Ford Fiasco (Fiesta0 and he had fuel supply problems throughout the whole rally, and as a consequence spent most of the event running with the landrovers, going out of Glasgow after service, on the four lane road out of the city, i would roar past him and stick my right hand up in the air, making a rather rude signal, he would zoom past me and do the same, by the end of the rally just about everybody was doing it, enen the Scandanavians and I am sure they did not have a clue what it was about.
Suffice it to say that the APRE rally parties in Granton on spey and Avimore will stay in my memory forever.
I started racing a BMW M5 when I was 56 years old and won the class when I was 59, I still cant get motor sport out of my system, and if i win the lottery,I will try the BOSS or Gt championships, probably scare myself shitless, but, hey man, will I enjoy it.
Kind Regards from France,
Les Dalton.


#35 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,580 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 02 May 2009 - 09:40

Try this
http://www.postimage.org/
Roger Lund