Jump to content


Photo

1960's Sportscar photo ID..


  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#1 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,058 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 31 August 2003 - 08:12

These photo have appeared on a Usenet Newsgroup I visit, but without ID's (When/Where/Who). I don't know much about 1960's sportscars so I was hoping that the guru's on TNF might help identify them ;)

All of the images appear to be in the USA.

My only thoughts are that Ken Miles could be driving in both of the Cobra pictures..and of course Graham Hill is in the #110 Lotus :)

Photo 1
Posted Image

Photo 2
Posted Image

Photo 3
Posted Image

Photo 4
Posted Image

Photo 5
Posted Image

Thanks in advance...
Rob

Advertisement

#2 Reyna

Reyna
  • Member

  • 630 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 31 August 2003 - 09:16

Maybe Riverside USRRC 1964 ??????

#3 Gary C

Gary C
  • Member

  • 4,525 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 31 August 2003 - 09:24

these are nice quality pics Rob, where did you find them??

#4 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,058 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 31 August 2003 - 09:43

Gary

They were on the newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.autos

Most of the images on this group are America road cars, but occasionally some racing pictures appear.

As well as these photos that I could not identify there were some from the IMSA series in 1979 and 1982.. some nice Can-Am pics from the late 1960's/1970's.. and also a few F1 from the 1978 USA West at Long Beach.

If you would like to see the others drop me an e-mail and I'll put them in a zip file for you..

Rob


#5 Manfred Cubenoggin

Manfred Cubenoggin
  • Member

  • 796 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 31 August 2003 - 11:47

The yellow RS Porsche #60. Don Wester??? STBC.

#6 Option1

Option1
  • Member

  • 12,953 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 31 August 2003 - 12:57

Rob, thank you for posting those pics. They're fascinating.

Neil

#7 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 23,853 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 31 August 2003 - 13:22

From the look of them, I'd say they're all taken the same day, which rather precludes Miles driving both Cobras! Could that be DS Gurney in the red one? Helmet looks right.

#8 Frank S

Frank S
  • Member

  • 2,157 posts
  • Joined: September 02

Posted 31 August 2003 - 15:21

I believe you'll have to look beyond Riverside: too much vegetation. Northwest, somewhere?

#9 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,058 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 31 August 2003 - 16:51

I think Photo 1 and Photo 5 are from one race, the others a different race meeting.

Maybe answering my own question on Photos 1 & 5?
A web search found the result of the 1963 Bridgehampton 500kms on Darren Galpin's site. It has Ken Miles finishing 2nd in a Shelby Cobra #98 and Mike Gammino in a Ferrari 250GTO #23 as 'Did not start'.

Could 1 & 5 be from this race at Bridgehampton?


The others.. 1963 Kent 200 miles at Pacific Raceways? The website I found did not list the race numbers but has Don Wester in a Porsche 718 RS61, Graham Hill in a Lotus 23 and Stan Burnett in a Ferrari 250 TR1-61. No mention of the Cobra ro the Maserati but the site only lists top 3 finishers!

Did the Cobra race in the 1963 Kent 200 miles, if so who drove it? Who is driving the Maserati?

Rob

#10 tam999

tam999
  • Member

  • 87 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 31 August 2003 - 17:11

In the fourth photo down car #78 is indeed Stan Burnett driving Ferrari TRI/61 #0794 then owned by Dick Hahn. Car #92 is Skip Hudson in the Team Meridian Chaparral.

#11 WGD706

WGD706
  • Member

  • 956 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 31 August 2003 - 17:27

Rob

Photo #4 has Skip Hudson in Meridian's front-engined Chaparral
http://www.tamsoldra...SkipHudson.html

Here's a link to some of the 1963 USRRC races, but no car numbers......
http://www.classicsc.../usrrc1963.html

#12 Pedro 917

Pedro 917
  • Member

  • 1,767 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 31 August 2003 - 18:01

Originally posted by tam999 :

In the fourth photo down car #78 is indeed Stan Burnett driving Ferrari TRI/61 #0794 then owned by Dick Hahn.



From Ferrari V12 Testa Rossa by Joel E. Finn (1979-1980):

Chassis # 0794 : the second and last TR61 to be constructed, also completed in January 1961. It had some handling ailments that prevented immediate competition use and did not see any action until Le Mans.

1961 Le Mans # 10 Hill/Gendebien - 1st
It was rebuilt after Le Mans as it had been sold to Luigi Chinetti and he wanted it for the 1961 Fall US races :
1961 Mosport Canadian GP # 2 Pedro Rodriguez - 2nd
1961 Riverside Times GP # 68 Ricardo Rodriguez - DNQ
1961 Nassau Governor's Trophy # 2 Pedro Rodriguez - 1st
1961 Nassau Trophy # 2 Pedro Rodriguez - 3rd
1962 Daytona # 50 Ricardo Rodriguez/Ryan - 15th
1962 Sebring # 26 Moss/Ireland - disqualified
1962 Le Mans # 18 Fulp/Ryan - DNF accident
Then sold to Dick Hahn of Yakima, Washington in the Fall of 1962 :
1963 Westwood, B.C., Players 200 - Stan Burnett - 6th and 5th in heats
1963 Kent, Washington, Northwest GP - Stan Burnett - 3rd
Later the car was acquired by Bev Spencer and has recently become the property of Anthony Bamford, Stoke-on-Trent, England.

One of my favorite cars, thanks Rob for posting it !!!!!

#13 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,058 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 31 August 2003 - 18:29

tam999 & WGD706 , thanks for the ID on the Skip Hudson Chaparral. I said that I did not know much of 1960's sportscars and I thought #92 was a Maserati Tipo 61 :blush:

It looks as though photos 2, 3 and 4 could be the 1963 race at Pacific Raceways as Ken Miles, Stan Burnett & Don Wester all feature in the results on the classiccar.com website.
No mention of Grahan Hill in a Lotus :confused: :confused:

Thanks for the help so far... :clap:

Rob

#14 WGD706

WGD706
  • Member

  • 956 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 31 August 2003 - 21:22

Rob
Only identified photo that I can find of the 1963 USRRC Round 5 - Pacific Raceways, Kent
July 21st, 1963 is of Pedro, Grant and Ridenour
http://www.clarben.c...ro63kent448.htm

Could photo #1 be Dave McDonald?
http://www.clarben.c...etro63dod98.htm
This picture is from an earlier event, not Riverside

#15 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,058 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 31 August 2003 - 22:09

WGD706
Thanks for the finding the Pacific Raceway image..

The Motor Racing Retro pic from Pacific Raceways looks as though it is the same corner as photos 2,3 and 4, but from the opposite angle. Looks like we have identified the who, where and when on these pics. I still think it strange that there is no mention of NGH in the results as he is definitely in the photos!

Could photo #1 be Dave McDonald?.. It looks as though the number has been changed on the Retro picture.. 99 to 198? I still have a feeling for Ken Miles in both Cobra pictures...

Rob

#16 Jim Thurman

Jim Thurman
  • Member

  • 4,089 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 31 August 2003 - 22:41

Numbers 2 through 5, definitely Pacific Raceways (later Seattle Intl. Raceway) in Kent. Don't be fooled by the tires on the inside. As Frank S. posted, too much vegetation for Riverside. And the turn is much tighter than T7 at Riverside...it's turn 3 (or is it 2?) at Pacific - the downhill hairpin leading to the steep downhill and the "back" part of the course.

Picture #1 doesn't look like MacDonald to me, looks more like Bob Holbert.

And it's difficult to tell Bridgehampton and Laguna Seca apart in tighter shots - both being sandy soiled.

Great pictures, thanks for posting them.


Jim Thurman

#17 Gerr

Gerr
  • Member

  • 687 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 01 September 2003 - 01:37

I think Rob is correct and some of the pics are from the Northwest GP, September 29, 1963, at Pacific Raceways, Kent, Washington. Not the USRRC race in July.
Two 45 lap heats, 202.5 miles, total.

Graham Hill was a late arrival, and drove Roy Winkelmann's Lotus 23/1.9 Climax from last place on the grid to third (44 laps) in the first heat. Stalled on the grid, got away last in the second. He got up to ninth (second in class) by the seventh lap. Lap 12, retired with gearbox woes.

Lloyd Ruby won both heats and $7420.00, in the #3 Harrison Lotus 19-Ford V8. Rodger Ward was second in both in the #1 Nickey Cooper-Chev, winning $2200.00 .

Dave MacDonald DNF'd in #98 Shelby's King Cobra Cooper. I assume the first photo, the red Cobra #98 is from some other race at Kent or a support event the same weekend.

Wester was 4th and 5th in Porsche #60 and won the U2 class. Burnett was 5th and 4th in Hahn's Ferrari #78. Skip Hudson DNF'd in the Team Meridian Chaparral.

#18 wibblywobbly

wibblywobbly
  • Member

  • 287 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 01 September 2003 - 02:17

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Gary

They were on the newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.autos

Most of the images on this group are America road cars, but occasionally some racing pictures appear.

As well as these photos that I could not identify there were some from the IMSA series in 1979 and 1982.. some nice Can-Am pics from the late 1960's/1970's.. and also a few F1 from the 1978 USA West at Long Beach.

If you would like to see the others drop me an e-mail and I'll put them in a zip file for you..

Rob

:wave: Edit:. . :wave:

It just occurred to me that other TNF members may like to see the images so I have uploaded them to my webspace. you can find them at...
http://homepage.ntlw...yder/newsgroup/

I'll leave them there for a couple of weeks before I delete them.


Thanks, for the wonderful pics! Amazing! :eek:

#19 bobbo

bobbo
  • Member

  • 841 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 01 September 2003 - 13:20

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
tam999 & WGD706 , thanks for the ID on the Skip Hudson Chaparral. I said that I did not know much of 1960's sportscars and I thought #92 was a Maserati Tipo 61 :blush: . . .

Rob


Rob,

I thought the same thing, maybe we've been looking at too many photos of Camoradi Maseratis over the years. . .

Bobbo

Advertisement

#20 Hse289

Hse289
  • Member

  • 588 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 01 September 2003 - 20:55

Excellent photos. I,ve got some books by Dave Freidman on the Cobras racing history and even so it is proving a little bit hard to identify. First thing i personally don,t think No 1 is Dave Macdonald as he used to race in a white crash helmet then he used a gold/orange type colour with a cobra snake painted on. Bob Holbert also drove with a white helmet. That leaves Dan Gurney or Ken Miles. Dan Gurney raced Cobras six times.
Daytona Feb 17 1963 red cobra No 98
Sebring March 23 1963 dk blue cobra No 15 and red cobra No 16
Bridgehampton Sept 14 1963 red cobra No 99
Riverside Oct 13 1963 dk blue cobra No 97
Daytona Feb 16 1964 light blue cobra No 16
Targa Florio April 26 1964 light blue No 146
I think its Ken Miles, trouble is he drove a red cobra with 98 on it a number of times. Need to know what track it is.

#21 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,748 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 01 September 2003 - 22:23

Is there any real reason to believe that pic's not Daytona?

For instance, did Daytona have a white line on the edge of the road? I realise that it looks like the track's going downhill, but that may just be camera angle...

#22 Lotus23

Lotus23
  • Member

  • 1,006 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 01 September 2003 - 23:05

Pedro 917, thank you for the update on TR61 chassis #0794. I saw it win LeMans in '61 and have a big B&W photo of it, signed by P Hill, hanging on my den wall.

When Luigi Chinetti ran it in his NART (North American Racing Team) at LeMans in '62, I was a volunteer member of that team. Buck Fulp was from Anderson, South Carolina: less than 100 mi from where I'm sitting right now. Buck had gobs of family money (textiles, IIRC) and his surfeit of ready cash may have been a factor in his being brought on board. ISTR that during practice he'd picked all of his braking points in the daylight and had considerable trouble finding them after dark! (Post-LeMans, he did quite well in the USRRC for a couple of years, then disappeared from the racing scene. Rumor was that his family of origin had put their foot down and threatened to cut off his $$ access unless he quit. He'd be in his sixties now.)

The late Canadian Peter Ryan was also in his twenties at the time. He was, of course, much better known than Buck, and was a rising star in '62. He and I were about the same age and I found him to be quite agreeable -- a very nice guy. The results sheet list the car as being "sortie route" in the 15th hour. Wish I could recall the exact details, but they elude me.

FWIW, the other Chinetti team car, a GTO with the unlikely driver pairing of Bob Grossman and Fireball Roberts, soldiered on to finish 6th.

The TR was one of my favorite cars, too. Glad to hear that she's alive and well and living a pampered existence these days.

#23 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,058 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 02 September 2003 - 14:22

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Is there any real reason to believe that pic's not Daytona?


Ray
I think you will agree that photo 1 and 5 look like they were taken at same place? Dan Gurney had the #98 Cobra for the Daytona 3 hrs in 1963, but there was no Ferrari #23!
Bob Grossman was entered in Mike Gammino's 250 GTO, but according to Martin Krejci's database it did not arrive..


Still looking for confirmation on 1 & 5 :(
Rob

#24 Gerr

Gerr
  • Member

  • 687 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 02 September 2003 - 16:28

Gammino drove his #23 GTO to 11th at the Mosport/Canadian GP, Saturday, September 28th, 1963. Not likely he would have had the car at Kent the next day.

Miles was also at Mosport. He finished 7th in a Cobra #50, but it was in Comstock's white with racing stripes (and a windshield). Perhaps he flew to Seattle and raced another #50 Cobra on the 29th.

Hill finished second at Mosport in Ian Walker's Lotus 23B, #1 and did travel to Kent to race the next day.

#25 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,058 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 02 September 2003 - 18:49

Originally posted by Gerr
Gammino drove his #23 GTO to 11th at the Mosport/Canadian GP, Saturday, September 28th, 1963. Not likely he would have had the car at Kent the next day.


I think you may be confusing the photos and races :|

Photos 2, 3 and 4 seem to have been confirmed as 1963 Nothwest GP at Pacific Raceways, Kent.

Photos 1 (??? Cobra) & 5 (Gammino 250GTO) are, I think, from the Bridgehampton Championship race held on 14th September.

Rob

#26 Gerr

Gerr
  • Member

  • 687 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 02 September 2003 - 19:23

Not confusing the photos and races at all. Just agreeing that the photos were not all from the same meeting. I am sure that photos 2, 3 and 4 are at the NWGP as I wrote in my first reply.

Gammino's GTO (photo 5) was a Mosport that weekend, so that photo has to be from a different event (not the NWGP) and maybe a some other track. I did not mean that this photo was taken at Mosport.

Photo 1 seems to have been taken from the same spot as photo 5, as you said.

Dunno about Bridgehampton. I'll see what I can find.

#27 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,058 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 02 September 2003 - 19:27

Sorry Gerr :blush:

A misunderstanding (or mis-read of) your post...

Rob

#28 tam999

tam999
  • Member

  • 87 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 02 September 2003 - 22:53

The red Cobra #98 (if it's a factory entry and it looks like it is) must have been photographed early in 1963 as the factory cars gained wider fender flares as the year progressed. Compare the higher ride height and the lack of flares on #98 with the blue #50 car, which is a more typical appearing late 1963 factory Cobra.

To see a very early factory Cobra: Ken Miles at Riverside in March 1963, check this page on my website:

http://www.tamsoldra...iverside1963--3

#29 Frank S

Frank S
  • Member

  • 2,157 posts
  • Joined: September 02

Posted 03 September 2003 - 03:53

Originally posted by tam999
The red Cobra #98 (if it's a factory entry and it looks like it is) must have been photographed early in 1963 as the factory cars gained wider fender flares as the year progressed. Compare the higher ride height and the lack of flares on #98 with the blue #50 car, which is a more typical appearing late 1963 factory Cobra.

To see a very early factory Cobra: Ken Miles at Riverside in March 1963, check this page on my website:

http://www.tamsoldra...iverside1963--3

And then there is this photo on the penultimate
posted page of Track & Traffic, December, 1962,
as well as a description of
Billy Krause's Cobra-mounted attempt at winning a
3-hour race preliminary to the Times race, October, 1962.

Go ahead, ask me how many 1:43 diecast models (Box 8422) of that car
have passed through my hands. Several. They make nice gifts,
especially when you can tell the broken axle story, and say you
were there, marshalling Turn Six.

#30 Martin Krejci

Martin Krejci
  • Member

  • 262 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 03 September 2003 - 08:30

There is a photo from the start of Bridgehampton World GT Championship race in Time and Two Seats book from Janos Wimpffen and there are three Cobras in the first row. I would say they look pretty much the same as on the photo #1. Firstly, they have large front windscreen, which is I think to qualify as FIA Grand Touring car. I remember such windscreens were mandatory even for sportscars by late 50s and/or early 60s. Also they have smaller fenders as early '63 cars.

Perhaps in the USRRC/USAC/SCCA National races more modifications on Cobras were allowed. But I am not expert in these techical matters of those old days.

I would agree Bridgehampton 1963 is likely race for photos #1 and #5.

#31 WDH74

WDH74
  • Member

  • 1,127 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 03 September 2003 - 17:53

Picture #1 has definitely caught my eye-that car looks a lot like CSX 2002, the first factory racing Cobra. Pictures in Rinsey Mills' new book on Cobras (pg 33-35) show an amazingly similar car, the main differences (the book has current pics of the car) being the placement of the roundels, the numbers in them, the wheels being painted white, and the lack of a splashguard for the fuel filler. The car in Rob's photo is plain on the driver's side (like 2002, which has sponsor decals on the other side), Halibrand wheels, center mounted Raydot mirror, the full windscreen, identical rollover bar, trunklid tiedown, and rear fender flare with really large tires (compared to the blue car in photo #2). Makes me wonder if that car's not 2002, or another similarly early factory race car. Seems to have most of the right mods. Just a guess, of course.
-William

#32 Hse289

Hse289
  • Member

  • 588 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 03 September 2003 - 20:54

Hi guys i have been emailed by a reliable and knowledgeable source that picture no 1 is indeed Ken Miles. The race was Bridgehampton 14th sept 1963. His Cobra was chassis number CSX2129 and it came in second to Dan Gurney driving (99) Cobra chassis number CSX2137. Check out ClubCobra website.
Frank S can you share your story of the Cobra incident when you worked at Riverside.

#33 Frank S

Frank S
  • Member

  • 2,157 posts
  • Joined: September 02

Posted 03 September 2003 - 23:14

Originally posted by Hse289
Hi guys i have been emailed by a reliable and knowledgeable source that picture no 1 is indeed Ken Miles. The race was Bridgehampton 14th sept 1963. His Cobra was chassis number CSX2129 and it came in second to Dan Gurney driving (99) Cobra chassis number CSX2137. Check out ClubCobra website.
Frank S can you share your story of the Cobra incident when you worked at Riverside.

That's it: I was at Turn Six, and I don't even remember where the axle accident happened. In those days, if it didn't happen right in front of me, and especially if I learned about it at the post-race beer consumption event, it would be gone. I might or might not read about it in a magazine a few months later. In this case it was forty years later. Forty years wreaks havoc. I may even remember on what, some time.

Sorry,

Frank S

#34 Lotus23

Lotus23
  • Member

  • 1,006 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 04 September 2003 - 00:01

Frank S, you're certainly correct in your observation that "forty years wreaks havoc".

I'm embarrassed that I can't recall why the Fulp/Ryan TR went out at LeMans in 62. I was on the team, for pete's sake! And cold sober! 20 years ago, I'm sure I could've cited chapter and verse on its demise. Now... nothing.

I used to be very certain of my memories. But now that I've reached the point where my Social Security check is arriving monthly, I can feel the synapses functioning less efficiently than they once did. (I sometimes feel like Hal in "2001 - A Space Odyssey" as his plugs are being pulled!)

#35 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 04 September 2003 - 00:30

Photo 2
Posted Image


Interesting that there is another photo that is almost dead-on to this one. The only difference being the lack of a decal between the MP and the Autolite-looking decals. The picture I am looking at was taken at Riverside in April 1964. The similarities are pretty amazing.

Photo 5
Posted Image


There is a picture in the December 1963 R&T which seems to be the GTO at Mosport.

Photos 3 & 4 seem to be from the Northwest GP and the folks as mentioned, both R&T and SCG have photos of the cars depicted.

Photo 1
Posted Image

There was a Cobra carrying the No. 50 at Road America which was red, had the fender flares (very obvious a rush job), but the number was quite different from this example. As for it being Bridgehampton, 'CSX2129' had a decal on the front left fender which is clearly missing in this photo. It is almost certain that this is from a USRRC Manufacturer's round or an FIA event -- perhaps the latter since there are no decals visible.

#36 Hse289

Hse289
  • Member

  • 588 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 04 September 2003 - 07:07

Maybe it was practice.

#37 Hse289

Hse289
  • Member

  • 588 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 04 September 2003 - 21:22

Some more info on photo number 2. When Ken Miles raced at Kent that day as already agreed he not only won the manufacturers race but also the drivers championship race later that day. The Cobra he was driving was chassis number CSX 2128.

#38 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 04 September 2003 - 22:28

Originally posted by Hse289
Maybe it was practice.


Which photo and which race?

#39 Hse289

Hse289
  • Member

  • 588 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 05 September 2003 - 07:09

Maybe it was practice. Sorry i did,nt read your thread properly , You,re right No 2 photo is similar to another photo, another race Dave Freidmans "Shelby Original Archives book". Page 114.

Advertisement

#40 Martin Krejci

Martin Krejci
  • Member

  • 262 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 05 September 2003 - 11:03

Don, do you believe photo #2 is definitely from different race that #3 and #4. I was convinced they are from the same event.