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#1 Lifeline

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 15:02

Having watched the recent BBC restorations programme with much interest I started to wonder if the memebrs of TNF may like to consider having our own restorations feature on race cars.
Each member could choose a car and then give various reasons as to why that car should be saved. Maybe this could then form the basis of a poll which could indicate the to ten most historically important competition vehicles of all time.
I know that many historically important cars have already been restored, re created etc etc but I would find it interesting to see everyones view and it could also be a bit of fun debating each case.
I know Motorsport ran a similar list a few years ago but I am sure they did not have to fight the cause for each car.

For those TNF memebers who have not seen this program I will try to explain. The BBC have had a series of programmes that each feature three buildings that are in dire need of restoration. These have ranged from Factories, Churches, Castles, Houses and Swimming Pools. Each building is then examined by two architects who go in to its history, social impact, construction method etc etc. Finally each building is then promoted by a celebrity who appeals to the voting public as to why that particular building should be restored and saved. The thirty or so properties were short listed to ten with the winning property being restored. The winner was announced last night which was a swimming pool in Manchester.

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#2 RTH

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 15:30

Well great but we are going to need photos of 10 classic racing cars currently lying derelict - with no one currently showing interest in saving them .

Doubtless you remember Channel 4 series "Salvage Squad " - a series of 1 hour programmes over the last 3 years restoring old vehicles A F5000 Lola, a veteran White steam car, and Morgan 3 wheeler come to mind - there was much else

If there are some real nominations it could be fascinating.

#3 fines

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 16:41

Agree - the nominations are the problem! :(

#4 petefenelon

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 16:45

Originally posted by fines
Agree - the nominations are the problem! :(


10 things I'd like to see restored:


(1) Formula 3000 - now decrepit and neglected.
(2) The Indy 500 - can we please get rid of those big fat dodgem cars and put some proper racers there please?
(3) the RAC Rally - remind me how something that's only in Wales can be the 'Rally of Great Britain'?
(4) Spa - what's left is still pretty good though
(5) The BBC's formula one coverage. I've had enough of commercial breaks and James Allen
(6) Autosport. Remember the days when there were words in it?
(7) Nigel Roebuck. Should be usable after de-carbonising.
(8) Overtaking in Formula 3 - rip those ruddy air restrictors off and create a surplus of power over grip!
(9) The sound of F1 engines other than V10s
(10) Eddie Jordan's wig.

#5 RTH

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 17:32

Agree 100 % with all of those !

Especially "The RAC Round Britain Rally " - Not the "ROUND CARDIFF CAR PARK "

If there was a geuine weekly Motor Racing news magazine - I would gladly never give Haymarket my money again - and I've taken it uninterupted for 38 years there is so little in it now that is real news, I have finished it by 8.30 am every thursday - it truly is a very pale shadow of a former great magazine.

F3000 - well of course it should be F2 with BTCC engines and no downforce

And as for ITV's coverage of motor sport - no one needs that explaining

#6 quintin cloud

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 18:25

Well my story is not quite restoring a car but building one from pipes and tubes on the floor to a full road going car I have done that and it is the same thing but in a different way. :up: :smoking:

All that I can say is restoring or building a car take TIME and MONEY and very loving family :smoking: :drunk: because they will want to kill you when say " It's time to restore car number 2 " :eek: :smoking:

#7 petefenelon

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 18:28

Originally posted by RTH
Agree 100 % with all of those !

Especially "The RAC Round Britain Rally " - Not the "ROUND CARDIFF CAR PARK "

If there was a geuine weekly Motor Racing news magazine - I would gladly never give Haymarket my money again - and I've taken it uninterupted for 38 years there is so little in it now that is real news, I have finished it by 8.30 am every thursday - it truly is a very pale shadow of a former great magazine.

F3000 - well of course it should be F2 with BTCC engines and no downforce

And as for ITV's coverage of motor sport - no one needs that explaining


Nah, F3 should be no downforce and BTCC engines. (And there should be a Group 6-like SR2 series using similar engines, descended from something like Sports 2000/National Supersports/grown-up Radicals).

F2 now should be about 600bhp - F1/F2/F3 should be something like 900/600/300bhp. One positive aspect of Renault's seeming interest in acquiring yet another single seater series is that they are talking about a 600bhp F2...

(Thinking about the mid-70s, F3 was about 150, F2 about 300, F1 about 450) - that sort of ratio seems about to me).

pete

#8 RTH

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 18:41

Originally posted by quintin cloud
Well my story is not quite restoring a car but building one from pipes and tubes on the floor to a full road going car I have done that and it is the same thing but in a different way.


Quintin : I'm afraid you can't just leave it like that - We now need to see a full set of photographs and all the details !

#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 21:34

Connew PC1 :)

#10 Gary C

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 21:55

The 'missing' Lotus 72, chassis 5 (I think).

#11 2F-001

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 23:19

I'm lost now... are we supposed to be confining ourselves to cars which really are lying derelict, or is this a philosophical statement of principle assuming, as a starting point, a situation in which there currently are no restored machines?

If the former, then David Purley's Lec. (Which would have the added benefit of creating long-term employment.)

#12 2F-001

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 23:23

I'd also be tempted to nominate Chaparral 2F-001... but sadly that would mean losing 2A-002...

#13 quintin cloud

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 07:19

Originally posted by RTH


Quintin : I'm afraid you can't just leave it like that - We now need to see a full set of photographs and all the details !


Give me about a day or two and I'll post some photos. :smoking:

#14 Lifeline

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 07:32

My Explanation seems to have caused a bit of confusion. I was hoping that we could compile some sort of fantasy list of cars that have disappeared over the years. I know it would be impossible to come up with 10 nominations of cars of historic importance that are currently awaiting restoration. Unless anybody knows better!!!.
Perhaps we should change the criteria a little. All participants could have a fantasy workshop with all of the skills and tools to enable them to carry out a full restoration of a competition vehicle. If you were able to find any vehicle from the past and place it in your workshop for restoration what would it be and why.
I am afraid that my worhop is currently a multi story car park as I have so many vehicles I would like to restore and own.

#15 David McKinney

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 08:54

If we were compiling a list like this ten years ago mine would have started with a 1956 Lancia-Ferrari, but I've been beaten to it on that
Otherwise some of the 1920s GP Fiats would have to be high on any list

#16 RTH

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 11:26

Originally posted by quintin cloud


Give me about a day or two and I'll post some photos. :smoking:


I'll hold you to that !

#17 rdrcr

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 01:59

An interesting notion…. I had been contemplating a thread along similar lines. Perhaps it's OT, but could we include in this topic, what level, or more accurately, to what degree should a car be restored?

Here’s my quandary: In the recent realm of restorations, (meaning the past 20 years), the level is extraordinarily high. However, on track, things like zip-ties and other modern-day fasteners are used to provide ease of removal of lines, cables and the like.

In the restorations of “important” cars, I'm of the notion that there should there be strict adherence to period pieces - and the ability for the mechanics to have for ease of access be damned.

Also, what if any, should the degree of patina be introduced? I’ll be embarking down this road before too long and I’m curious. So, I’d like to get an opinion from the historians’ point of view. To restore a car, say a 1957 Maserati 450S to the ‘Nth” degree or should it have that element of "perfect" patina?

I've pirated away a quote from another thread to illustrate the point...

Originally posted by antonvrs
"... After Mr. Wessells sold this car a couple of years ago it suffered from an attempt to upgrade it, i.e. the fussy safety wiring, wide wheels in the back, general "over preparation" in my opinion. It would have been better off if they had just left it sitting outside for a while or driven it fast on some dirt roads to acquire some patina. I'm so sick of these old Italian cars with modern super-glossy paint and glittering chrome spokes in over-polished alloy rims I could puke. So there!

Your friendly car-mudgeon,

Anton

Seems that most, if not all, cars that appear at the big shows have been done better than new. - like jewelry. The factory had other ideas when they were created, is this over-restored way of doing things going to be the way from now on?

#18 RTH

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 06:27

If its just racing cars, - I'd rather like a look around an imaginary grouping of restored and running Grand Prix "Rare Breeds "

Amon , Andrea Moda, Bellasi, Coloni, Connew, De Tomaso, Forti, Gilby, Haas Lola, Hill, Kauhsen, Kojima, Lec, Life, Maki, Merzario. Onyx, Politoys, Ram, Rebaque, Rial, Simtek, Token, Trojan, Zakspeed

Perhaps you can add to the list . I wonder where all these cars are - if they are complete , running, and restored ?

Can anyone post 'live' photos of real racing cars in a derelict codition literally waiting for restoration ?

#19 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 06:33

Sure... here's one...

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#20 john medley

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 07:26

The bits tossed together in the one place waiting for the owner to arrive from the pit area to assess just how much damage the team driver has done to his newly rebodied special. I always thought the main part of the car ended up through the fence and beyond the trees in Schubert's Paddock -- because when the owner arrived from the pits and saw the mess , he said " Leave it there " .

And it was in Schubert's Paddock that the remains were found and photographed 30 years later. Maybe they are still there , ripe for restoration.

( Amazing photo, Ray, and first time I've seen it . Origin ?)

#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 07:38

So often I've posted photos that you should have asked that, John... this is the first time...

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From Patto's scrapbook...

Ask again some time, like the Prefect one for instance.

#22 RTH

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 08:10

What a shame, it looks a really nicely crafted car ---- What exactly was it ? Or should I say is it ?

#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:46

First outing for the rebodied Itala Mercury...

#24 john medley

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 10:04

Richard, the car was the Itala - Ford V8 , to the not unusual 1930s - 1950s Australian practice of a European chassis ( for brakes and handling ) with American engine ( for grunt ) , this one built up in Melbourne immediately after World War 2 for Lex Denniston , the body by Bob Baker .

Early in 1948 , at the daunting Lobethal circuit in South Australia driver Ern Seeliger was last away in the Lobethal ' 100' handicap and had completed one lap before being baulked by a slower car at Schubert's Corner , one of the fastest bends on this very fast circuit. The car hit two trees and was badly damaged , even bits like brake shoes and gearbox internals reportedly bouncing down the road . Seeliger miraculously suffered only a bruised wrist and severe shock. The car ended its days right there.

This is my first sighting of Ray's photos of the Itala V8 , and I'm impressed : it was a good looking and nicely - crafted car as you say ( the " complete" photo is taken half a lap before the accident , I'd guess ) , the damage looks not too bad in the side-on shot ( casts doubt on the " gearbox internals" story , for example ) but alarming in the front-on shot by the roadside.

It would be an interesting and very period subject for a Restoration Project , in my opinion.

#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 10:27

Wonder where this one is?

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Any of these would be nice...

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But this is the one I really would love to see...

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...the car in the foreground has been replicated, after all. Oh, and note that 'reserve fuel tank' in the Regal!

#26 fines

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 15:32

Okay, if we can fetch one from our fantasy, then I'd like the 1953 Dean Van Lines Special restored, recreated or whatever! One of the most successful race cars ever, driven (amongst others) by Bob Sweikert, Jimmy Bryan, Bob Vukovich, A. J. Foyt etc.

#27 fines

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 15:35

... and the Fiat 806, a Miller 122, a 1905 Gordon-Bennett Renault, a 1903 Paris-Madrid Mors, a 1901 Mercedes, a Rolland-Pilain, Hispano-Suiza etc. etc. etc.

#28 Breadmaster

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 16:04

and a sharknose ferrari?

#29 provapr

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 16:15

OK, here's my list of restored cars I would like in my (non-existent) garage.
(Note to self; must work harder...)

Lotus 49 (any)
1958 Vanwall (ex Moss)
1969 Ford GT 40 (pref the Ickx / Oliver Le Mans car)
1988 Schnitzer BMW M3 Group A (ex Roberto Ravaglia)
1983 Rothmans sponsored Porsche 956 (ex Bellof pls)
Van Diemen RF85 (Damon's Ricoh car would do)
Jaguar C type (any)
Williams FW07 (Regazzoni 1979 British Grand Prix winning car would be nice)
1979 DAP/DAP (ex Ayrton Senna da Silva)
ex Ari Vatanen Ford Escort

And that would make me quite a happy man...

Hope this is in the spirit of what was intended.

#30 ensign14

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 16:32

The VM. Because, 50 years after it lost its moment of glory because Signor Matozzo fell asleep after one too many all nighters, it would qualify for historic racing and get its Kieftesque moment in the sun.

Or the Heim from the 1920s, because I have never seen a photo of it...

#31 dbw

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 16:42

while most miller 122's[rear drive] out and running are assembles of old and new bits..[even the indy museums car is a bitsa]...at least one completely original car remains hidden in a private collection in the eastern US...a special ops raid to liberate it perhaps??

and the ford special ?...i think i'd just leave it there also.

as for a car we will never see or hear [but i'd like to]....the giant zepplin engined chain drive fiat....[the one you have to stand on a stepladder to unscrew the radiator cap]

the mag-bodied porsche "mickey mouse" spyder...the one that left us in a most spectacular manner... [and gave the driver the ride of his life]

#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 23:26

When it comes to over-restoration, this famous car could well be a prime candidate...

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#33 dolomite

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 00:34

For starters, I'd like one of these, please. :)

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#34 Kojima_KE007

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Posted 08 December 2003 - 21:15

Originally posted by RTH
If its just racing cars, - I'd rather like a look around an imaginary grouping of restored and running Grand Prix "Rare Breeds "

Amon , Andrea Moda, Bellasi, Coloni, Connew, De Tomaso, Forti, Gilby, Haas Lola, Hill, Kauhsen, Kojima, Lec, Life, Maki, Merzario. Onyx, Politoys, Ram, Rebaque, Rial, Simtek, Token, Trojan, Zakspeed

Perhaps you can add to the list . I wonder where all these cars are - if they are complete , running, and restored ?

Can anyone post 'live' photos of real racing cars in a derelict codition literally waiting for restoration ?


I don't know if you are still interested or have already seen our website, but we are currently in the process of restoring the 1976 Kojima KE007 in Japan.

Kojima KE007 F1 Project

#35 rdrcr

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 00:57

I'm bumping this one up to the top again...

With regards to a post I made above and echoed to some extent in a recent comment by Roger:

Originally posted by Roger Clark in the Scene at Stoneleigh Thread

"... Barry and I attended a seminar by Karl Ludvigsen on the subject of authenticity in restoration. He was quite critical of the Lancia/Ferrari, saying that its standard of finish bore no resemblance to the 1956 cars.


So again I wonder, to what extent should a car of modest, great or even monumental importance be restored?

I ask for opinion because I think that the judging should be standardized to a greater degree. Much the same as the rules and regulations for the campaigning of historic racing cars.

The trick would be, how to influence the judges away from the trailer-queen mentality towards pristine but authentic appearing cars. Believe me, it's just as difficult to do them that way.

#36 Barry Boor

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 08:14

To illustrate Roger's point regarding Karl's comments....

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'Nuff said!

#37 rdrcr

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 14:13

Thanks for posting that Barry, it illuminates the point perfectly.

Speaking out loud/ Curious... why does that Lancia-Ferrari look so wrong, yet the Black Bug look so right? It's restoration may be just as meticulous, if not more so (judging from the single photos, of course). Is it the overkill on the paint? That is what disturbs my eye the most.

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...and maybe it's all that nickel-plating against that black that looks so nice!

#38 RJH

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 15:35

The dreaded Lancia Ferrari exhibts a lot of what is wrong with modern restoration. A bit like a diamond encrusted Rolex, a triumph of wealth over style.

#39 Don Capps

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 16:21

Having seen the Lancias up close and personal in 1955 -- and later as Lancia-Ferraris -- the paint did not glisten like that and the only thing that sparkled were our eyes.... Like Anton, the "over restoration" of so many racing cars from the past -- adorned with modern stickers that tout some product or event -- are rather sad in away. They seem so tarted up when they were really far more concerned about being properly prepared than how they looked -- neatness counted, but only to a point since if you had time to do that what weren't you doing to make the car better?

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#40 rdrcr

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 21:27

Point well taken Don, though there is a point and purpose for all of the facets involved... IMHO, some cars desrve this type of treatment, with the caveat of being done correctly though.

I ask the collective body of TNF:

Has anyone done any judging at some of the larger Concours d' Elegance or similar shows like Goodwood? (If they have any sort of judging like that at all).

Just a guess on my part - that Doug probably has at one point in time. I'd be interested to hear of your spin on this when you're around next Doug...

If any of you have, what sort of underlying pressure is there to keep "ramping-up" the standard? Of course this goes without saying that the displayers of such cars arrive with them polished to the n'th degree making the job even more difficult.

It seems there was an unbridled development and proliferation of this type of restoration in the '80's and has now reached a crescendo of gleaming paint and brightwork that must boggle the eye and scope of the judges, let alone the spectator.

#41 Mike Argetsinger

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 22:19

This is not a field in which I have much expertise (now that I think about it, I'm not certain that any such field exists!) - but it does interest me. And it brings to mind the Lotus 49 that is coming to the Research Center at Watkins Glen this year. What is intriguing about this car (R6) - in addition to being the very car that Jochen Rindt drove to win the 1969 USGP and Monaco in '70 - and I think relevant to this thread, is that the car has never been restored at all. It was put away in 1971 and remains just as it was. No fresh engine - or body panels - or suspension bits - so someone could go vintage racing in it. Just as it was. It also hasn't been on public display in the interim, so the period it is on display at Watkins Glen - August 1 though the end of October - will be a unique opportunity to see a significant car in completely original condition. After that it goes back to England for some kind of "freshening up." The nature or extent of this "freshening up" is presently undecided - I am told. Which, perhaps, brings us to the spirit of this thread. How much should be done to a car of this description? I'm sure the owner (Johannes Willenpart)has his own ideas - but he has told me that he hasn't made up his mind as yet. So I will be happy to pass along all comments!

#42 rdrcr

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 00:24

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger

This is not a field in which I have much expertise (now that I think about it, I'm not certain that any such field exists!) - but it does interest me.

You may, or may not be surprised to learn that there is such field... one populated by aficionados who spend or have spent the majority of their lives studying self-selected marques and the "correctness" of restoring them.

And it brings to mind the Lotus 49 that is coming to the Research Center at Watkins Glen this year. What is intriguing about this car (R6) - in addition to being the very car that Jochen Rindt drove to win the 1969 USGP and Monaco in '70 - and I think relevant to this thread, is that the car has never been restored at all. It was put away in 1971 and remains just as it was. No fresh engine - or body panels - or suspension bits - so someone could go vintage racing in it. Just as it was.

You're speaking figuratively of course... ;) Cars that have sat for long periods of time are subject to a multitude of failures.

It also hasn't been on public display in the interim, so the period it is on display at Watkins Glen - August 1 though the end of October - will be a unique opportunity to see a significant car in completely original condition. After that it goes back to England for some kind of "freshening up." The nature or extent of this "freshening up" is presently undecided - I am told. Which, perhaps, brings us to the spirit of this thread. How much should be done to a car of this description? I'm sure the owner (Johannes Willenpart) has his own ideas - but he has told me that he hasn't made up his mind as yet. So I will be happy to pass along all comments!

This is absolutely fascinating - this time capsule of a car. Especially such an important one with such a history.

I pray that the "freshening" is only beneath the skin and limited to the internals of the car. Such truly original pieces should be kept as close as possible to their condition from once they came. If I may offer another alternative; to keep the car exactly as it is, and create a reproduction of the Rindt 49 for actual track use. (I personally favor this approach).

Frankly, the cost of a thorough restoration of the mechanicals, electrics and other critical bits may run into very serious money. Magnaflux of all the chassis, suspension and steering parts, retrofit of any suspicious pieces plus the standard - must replace stuff. Then, add an engine and gearbox rebuild and all of a sudden they're into the car in a serious way while trying not to "disturb" it too much. Better to just recreate the thing and be able to flog it 'round without any concern of some 30+ year-old part failing. They can still do the simple things to the original car without any real disruption of its originality - to keep the car maintainable. It's common knowledge that some time, termed "maintenance miles" have to be run on those cars. Otherwise, seals dry-rot, fuel degrades, etc.

Thanks very much for bringing this to the thread, and please let us know, what direction Mr. Willenpart decides to go with his prized possession.



#43 Lotus23

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 01:12

Mike, thank you for letting us know about the Rindt Lotus 49. My wife and I saw JR's terrific come-from-behind win at Monaco in '70.

After the checker fell, the crowd (including yr hmbl svnt) poured onto the track. I recall that:

a) I literally ran into a blazer-wearing, microphone-toting Phil Hill, who was working for TV ("Hi, Phil!!") and

b) JR very nearly ran me down as I was trying to get a head-on photo of him in the car. Tho' I succeeded, and somewhere have the photo to prove it, it was not one of my brightest-ever moves...

#44 Mike Argetsinger

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 02:23

Originally posted by rdrcr

You may, or may not be surprised to learn that there is such field... one populated by aficionados who spend or have spent the majority of their lives studying self-selected marques and the "correctness" of restoring them.


[B]
You're speaking figuratively of course... ;) Cars that have sat for long periods of time are subject to a multitude of failures.


[B]
This is absolutely fascinating - this time capsule of a car. Especially such an important one with such a history.





On the first point - - Well, actually Richard, I was referencing a growing belief on my own part that there is not a 'field' in which I can claim expertise. Never mind, it was expressed rather obliquely! I have no doubt that a legitimate field of expertise exists in all manner of restoration, etc.

On the second point - - Not certain I follow your meaning here. I do mean, literally, that the car has not had any new parts added. That is not to say it hasn't been looked after.

On the third point - - I'm glad we're in agreement here and I hope very much that you, and many others from TNF, will come see it. October 2 would be an ideal date. We will have a mixed panel of experts on Lotus and on Jochen. It should be fun.



Joel - those are great anecdotes. Perhaps we can persuade you to visit this year!

#45 rdrcr

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 04:45

Forgive me Mike, perhaps it was I that wasn't I following your meaning. I was literally interpreting your comment:

... And it brings to mind the Lotus 49 that is coming to the Research Center at Watkins Glen this year. What is intriguing about this car (R6) - in addition to being the very car that Jochen Rindt drove to win the 1969 USGP and Monaco in '70 - and I think relevant to this thread, is that the car has never been restored at all. It was put away in 1971 and remains just as it was. No fresh engine - or body panels - or suspension bits - so someone could go vintage racing in it. Just as it was..."


I just wasn't sure if you were serious... :) as I thought (as in read into the above) the car was not really maintained as a racing car, if at all - more of a hidden treasure or closeted museum piece at best - then being able to go out and run it in a race!

One gets attuned to the exactness of wording sometimes exhibited in threads rather than the intent. Anyway, I'd still be rather leery of pressing a 30 year-old racing car into 'proper' service without a thorough overhaul.

I'd love to be at the Center, visiting familiar surroundings, my new friends and see the car... Though the date isn't far from the 10th of September when I plan on being there for the Grand Prix Festival... Perhaps if I can get away, I'll do them both. But the Cunningham will still be there during the Festival right?

#46 David Lawson

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 06:27

Originally posted by rdrcr
It seems there was an unbridled development and proliferation of this type of restoration in the '80's and has now reached a crescendo of gleaming paint and brightwork that must boggle the eye and scope of the judges, let alone the spectator.


On the other hand.........

Posted Image

Seen at Cadwell Park last year

David

#47 Frank S

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 07:28

This I like:

Posted Image

Bugatti T-35C 1928 No. 7 2000cc
Chassis No. 4871
Hubert Fabri

Frank S

#48 Philip Whiteman

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 17:48

I'm not pointing the figer at this Bug, but you've got to watch out for antique-faker style 'distressing' on vintage cars: just as contemptable as chrome plating wire wheels atc on racers, in my my opinion. I remember one Alfa famous in VSCC circles - the owner died a while back, but I'll spare the feelings of his family - that sported the most bogus 'oil stains' and 'exhaust smudges' you could imagine.

Now my car has real rust and aircraft locking wire securing the exhaust because a) it really is old and well used and b) I am really too broke and idle to fix it properly. However, if someone wants to slip me £5,000 - odd for a concours restoration I'll not turn them away"

#49 joe twyman

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 21:54

Keeping a car original is something that my father's company are reknowned for. Like it or not, in historical terms I feel it is possibly the best thing to do. Admittedly it is not the most beautiful way to do things, but in terms of originality it is unquestionable. The judges at the Louis Vuitton concours in London in (i think) 1998 liked the Indy Alfa P3 they "restored" so much, that it won the event overall. The car ran perfectly too, and my father drove it to 2nd place at Laguna Seca and the FOS in the same year.

They have also done many other cars in such a style and currently have the Ferrari 250TR just out of the Ford Museum that is in for a similar job. With the same paint that was on the car when Hawthorn and Collins thrashed it around the 'Ring, how can anyone justify paintstripping it and painting over it with something shiny? (even if it does have a few dents and cracks here and there)

#50 VAR1016

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 22:33

Originally posted by Don Capps
Having seen the Lancias up close and personal in 1955 -- and later as Lancia-Ferraris -- the paint did not glisten like that and the only thing that sparkled were our eyes.... Like Anton, the "over restoration" of so many racing cars from the past -- adorned with modern stickers that tout some product or event -- are rather sad in away. They seem so tarted up when they were really far more concerned about being properly prepared than how they looked -- neatness counted, but only to a point since if you had time to do that what weren't you doing to make the car better?


I agree about the Lancia-Ferrari.

However, the re-created D50 that I saw at Goodwood, looked very authentic to my eyes. I really believed that the originals looked like that; I especially liked the flat grey paint on the wishbones!

PdeRL