47 replies to this topic

[Henri Greuter]

To whom it may concern,

Reacting on a reply in another thread about Indycar chassis numbers in which I mentioned to have done something on the McLaren M16's, here is an overview of what I found out about the cvars and their careers at Indy.
If anyone has additional info available about where cars have gone, errors within career listing and/or definitve approval of factory allocated chassis number for a certain car, please let us know!
Thanks to everyone who does so in advance.

This chassis record is far from complete and certainly not complete/correct. It is based on info as can be found within the Carl Hungness yearbooks and the Jack Fox “Illustrated history of the Indy 500” and Doug Nye's "McLaren F1, Can-Am and Indy cars (Second edition)"
Since chassis numbers are not known, I enlisted each car a Roman number, in years when new cars appeared, factory entered cars were given the lower numbers, then the Penske entries and whatever followed on privateers.
As for additional info, I’ve restricted myself to listing car number, starting position and finish place. Since the lay-out of this chatsite doesn’t accept tabs etc. (at least on my PC) I didn’t bother to compile decent statistic overviews and table those.
I am considering to do so but only if they can be visualised decently in a spreadsheet like appeareance


1971: the type A: 3 cars built

1971-I: First built car, prototype, known to be delivered to Penske. Car told to have appeared at Indy for first time in 1974 but other reports (Nye) state that it was Donohue’s mount in ’71, after being damaged repaired and then won Pocono 500.

1971 #66 Donohue 2/25
1972 history unknown
1973 history unknown
1974 #74 John Mahler DNQ
1975 #86 Al Loquasto DNQ
1976 #86 Al Loquasto 24/25
1977 #86 Al Loquasto 15/28
1978 #86 Al Loquasto DNQ


1971-II:
1971 #15 Peter Revson 1/2
1972 #86 Peter Revson (backup entry)
1973 #3 Roger McCluskey 14/3
1974 #41 Roger McCluskey (practice only)
1975 #75 Graham McRae DNQ
1976 #19 Spike Gehlhausen 25/33
1977 #19 Spike Gehlhausen (wrecked)


1971-III:
1971 A #85 Denny Hulme 4/17
1972 till 1976 history unknown
1977 #36 Jerry Sneva 16/10 (??????)

The 1977 yearbook lists that Jerry Sneva raced a 1971 car, believed to be Donohue’s car, which was then driven in 1972 by Salt Walther. This is for sure wrong since Walther qualified a Colt-Ford in 1972 (retired in the first lap so he hardly raced it….) Therefore, assuming that it is indeed a 1971 built car, it has to be the car, driven by Hulme in 1971

Well, if you think sorting out the 1971 cars was confusing, we’ve only just begon to unveil some of the mess! Here come the 1972 built cars.


1972: the type B: at least 4, perhaps 5 cars built, I have seen a chassis plate of a car to be restored which read M16B-02


1972-I (I have reasons to believe this could be the M16B-02)
1972 #12 Peter Revson 2/31
1973 #89 John Martin 24/8
1974 #89 John Martin 22/11
1975 #89 John Martin 16/27

1972-II
1972 #24 Gordon Johncock 26/20
See furtheron for more stories

1972-III
1972 #7 Gary Bettenhausen 4/14
No further data found positively identifying this car anymore.

1972-IV
1972 #66 Mark Donohue 3/1
1973 history unknown
1974 #56 Jim Hurtubise 28/25
1975 #56 Jim Hurtubise DNQ
1976 entered by Hurtubise????
1977 entered by Hurtubise????
1978 #52 Jim Hurtubise DNQ
Car currently in possession Indianapolis Motor Speedway, restored as Donohue’s ’72 winner


I kind of dislike Jerry Sneva! Did he cause problems in allocating the chassis of the 1971 built cars in 1977, he does it again one year later for the 1972 cars.
The 1978 yearbooks list him driving a ’72 McLaren, heavily modified and without the familiar lines (hip-mounted radiators) with the following history:
1972 #24 Gordon Johncock 26/20
1973 McCluskey driving only
1974 McCluskey driving only
1975 #89 John Martin 16/27
1976 not entered
1977 #30 Bob Harkey DNQ.
1978 #30 Jerry Sneva 32/31

This record contains entries of at least 3 previously listed cars! 1971-I for 1974, 1972-II for 1972 and 1971-I for 1972. If McCluskey drove this car in 1973 it must have been his backup car that year and then he must have had 2 Mac’s for backup to his Riley-Offy in ’74.
If it is either 1972-I or 1972-II, your guess is as good as mines but I think we’re dealing with the Johncock machine of ’72 but with the data about 73-75 mixed up.



Then, another 1972 built car is appearing in the 1973 yearbook.
1972 Unknown
1973 #77 Salt Walther 17/33
This car was wrecked in the starting accident of that year which almost claimed Walther’s life. Since Penske had sold off the 1972 Donohue car (something I bet he regrets dearly since that was his first of 13 Indy winners and one of only a very few he can’t get hold off anymore!) I assume that this ’73 Walther car may well be the other '72 Penske entry, the car that caused the Bettenhausen family yet another heartbreak in 1972.

OK, that’s one part of the M16-Mayhem, More MacMysteries to follow when I have typed out those data


Have fun!

Henri Greuter

[Don Capps]

Henri, and Thanks! I, for one, will see what I can dig out of my files that might help or simply hang on for the ride and see where it takes us....

[fines]

For the following, please bear in mind that

Originally posted by fines
60s are a nightmare, and 70s worse...

;)

Now here's what I can make of the early McLaren Champ Car history:

Chassis				 (M15-01)	(M15-02)	(M16-01)	(M16-02)	(M16-03)	(M16-04)	(M16-05)	(M16-06)	(M16-07)	

Type					M15A		M15A		M16A		M16A		M16A		M16B		M16B		M16B		M16B		

# Entrant/Owner		 #73 McLaren #75 McLaren ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 



1970-05-30 Indianapolis Revson 22e  Will's 9=   ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 



# Entrant/Owner		 #5 John'k   (same)	  ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 



1970-06-14 Langhorne	John'k 10=  ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 

1970-07-04 Michigan	 John'k 12c  ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 

1970-09-06 Ontario	  John'k 4	Revson 5	---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 

1970-10-03 Trenton	  John'k DNS  ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 



# Entrant/Owner		 #7 Voll'd   #87 McLaren #66 Penske  #85 McLaren #86 McLaren ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 



1971-05-29 Indianapolis John'k 29a  DNA		 Dono'e 25ga Hulme 17e   Revson 2	---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 



Chassis				 (same)	  (same)	  (M16-01B)   (same)	  (same)	  (same)	  (same)	  (same)	  (same)	  

# Entrant/Owner		 (same)	  #75 Mahler  (same)	  (same)	  (same)	  ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 



1971-07-03 Pocono	   John'k 20r  ---		 Dono'e 1	---		 Revson 21l  ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 

1971-07-18 Michigan	 John'k 23e  ---		 Dono'e 1	---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 

1971-09-05 Ontario	  Zimm'n 20=  Mahler 9=   Dono'e 18e  John'k 27s  Revson 7=   ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 

1971-10-03 Trenton	  ---		 ---		 Dono'e 6=   ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 

1971-10-23 Phoenix	  ---		 ---		 Dono'e 16e  ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 



# Entrant/Owner		 ---		 #31 Vang'd  (same)	  #7 Penske   (same)	  ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 



1972-03-18 Phoenix	  ---		 ---		 Dono'e 17c  Bett'n 4=   ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 

1972-04-23 Trenton	  ---		 Mahler 8=   Dono'e 19s  Bett'n 1	John'k 3=   ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 



# Entrant/Owner		 #17 Voll'd  (same)	  #8 Penske   #68 Penske  (same)	  #7 Penske   #12 McLaren #24 McLaren #66 Penske  



1972-05-27 Indianapolis Zimm'n 19i  Mahler 22e  DNA		 DNA		 DNA		 Bett'n 14i  Revson 31g  John'k 20e  Dono'e 1	

1972-06-04 Milwaukee	---		 Mahler 11=  ---		 ---		 ---		 Bett'n 3	---		 ---		 Dono'e 2	



Type					(same)	  (same)	  M16B		M16B		M16B		(same)	  (same)	  (same)	  (same)	  

# Entrant/Owner		 ---		 (same)	  #77 Walther #68 Woods   #14 Hopkins (same)	  (same)	  (same)	  (same)	  



1972-07-16 Michigan	 ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 McCl'y 8=   Bett'n 24w  ---		 John'k 9=   ---		 

1972-07-29 Pocono	   ---		 Mahler 27e  Walt'r 8=   ---		 McCl'y 11s  Bett'n 19i  Revson 31e  John'k 22e  ---		 

1972-08-13 Milwaukee	---		 Mahler 25i  ---		 ---		 ---		 John'k 22s  ---		 ---		 ---		 

1972-09-03 Ontario	  ---		 ---		 Walt'r 6=   Mahler 18a  McCl'y 1	---		 Revson 23l  John'k 13a  Hiss 2=	 

1972-09-24 Trenton	  ---		 ---		 Walt'r 27i  ---		 ---		 ---		 John'k 20e  ---		 Dono'e 2	

1972-11-04 Phoenix	  ---		 ---		 ---		 ---		 McCl'y 6=   ---		 ---		 ---		 Dono'e 16s

A few notes:

- chassis numbers in brackets are (in my terminology) merely chassis identifyers - I am not really interested in the actual serial number (i.e. M15A/1, M15A-1, M15A1 or M15A 1 etc.), I just want to track the cars.
- numbers behind driver names are finishing positions, with an indication if the car did not finish (= flagged, a accident, e engine etc.)
- I believe all M16As were updated to M16B spec in 1972, but I am in no way sure!
- Donohue's 1971 car was wrecked when Mike Mosley crashed into it late in the race. Again, I believe it was rebuilt around a new monococque (possibly the spare monococque of the works team, that was possibly entered as #87 at the Speedway, as opposed to the 1970 car in my list - anyway, #87 did not appear on the track) - this could be the source of the confusion about the '77 Sneva car, i.e. the original chassis was possibly repaired afterwards; it could hardly have been repaired in the month between Indy and Pocono!

[Henri Greuter]

To Don and Michael,

Thanks a lot for your comments and data.
I had in mind to post the remaing part today but after closing down my computer and not getting much sleep I dived into the books another time, The list I qoute from was made some 16 (!) years ago and I did find a fen new snippets in the latest version of the Jack Fox bible.

So I postponee Part 2 one day and dive into all that another time todya and post it tomorrow. Nasty part of it is that thoudh I found some clues'it only created more questions and doubts as well.

Stay tuned....


By the way Michael, I see that I can't match any of your non-Indy data. Phew.....
But maybe that's because Indy was what USAC was all about in those days..
(Come to think of it, so appears IRL....)


Henri

[Gerr]

Henri, About the Jerry Sneva M16B of 1978. Chuck Haines sent me some info when he was selling M16B-02, about 1991. The car was last raced by Cliff Hucul in 1981 (at Michigan,twice and at Milwaukee ) with the number 57 for Metro Racing.
The car is/was red with "Cliff Hucul" on the sides of the windscreen and "Owner G.Jules Bickel, Jack Engelhardt" on the engine cover. The car was also at Indy in '81 for John Martin as #57.

In the photos you can see two USAC serial/registration labels. One is "0030", the other is "0357".
I think the first two digits represent the year and the second pair the car number. "00" being 1978 and "03" being 1981. If so the car was the Jerry Sneva #30 of 1978. It is also missing the hip-mounted rads.

Is this the same M16B-02 that you saw, awaiting restoration ?

[fines]

Henri, I'll be waiting for your next post - your data is very helpful!

[Pete Stowe]

Henri,
The following are details of M16 chassis I collated from various magazines (mainly Motoring News and Autosport) during 1971-75 (& not just the Indy 500), and has not been updated with any later information. I think it mostly corresponds to Fines data.
Chassis are tracked by identifying letter, & listed as Type, Identifier, Owner/driver, Years used, Additional notes:

M16A Prototype McLaren Racing 1971
M16A Prototype Roger Penske/ Mark Donohue 1971-72
M16A Prototype Walmotor Inc/ D Walther 1972 Dayton Steel Wheel Special

M16A A McLaren Racing/ Peter Revson 1971
M16A A Lindsey Hopkins/ Roger McCluskey 1972 American Marine Underwriters Special

M16A B McLaren Racing/ D Hulme 1971
M16A B Roger Penske/ G Bettenhausen 1972
M16A B Roy Woods/ George Follmer,J Mahler 1972-73 updated to M16B spec 1973. Carling Black Label

M16B A McLaren Racing/ Peter Revson 1972
M16B A Automotive Technology/ J Martin 1973-74

M16B B McLaren Racing/ Gordon Johncock 1972
M16B B Lindsey Hopkins/ Roger McCluskey 1973-74

M16B C Penske Racing/ Mark Donohue 1972-73 Indy winner 1972
M16B C Gohr Distributing/ Jim Hurtubise 1974

M16B D Penske Racing/ G Bettenhausen 1972
M16B D Walmotor Inc/ D Walther 1973 written off 1973 Indy 500

M16B ? K & L Racing/ A Loquasto 1974 probably car 'B'?

M16C A Penske Racing 1973 crashed. rebuilt or new car?

M16C B Penske Racing/ G Bettenhausen 1973-74 updated to M16C/D spec for 1974(Score Special)

M16C C McLaren Racing/ J Rutherford 1973-74 updated to M16C/D spec for 1974. Indy winner 1974

M16C D McLaren Racing/ Peter Revson 1973
M16C D Walmotor Inc/ D Walther, R Harkey 1974-75 Dayton Walther Special

M16C E Penske Racing/ Mike Hiss 1973-74 updated to M16C/D spec for 1974(Norton Spirit)

M16C/D A McLaren Racing/ David Hobbs 1974
M16C/D A Walmotor Inc/ D Walther 1974-75

M16C/D B McLaren Racing/ J Rutherford 1974

M16E A McLaren Racing/ J Rutherford 1975

M16E B McLaren Racing/ Lloyd Ruby 1975

The story of one of the M16C’s, which is now in New Zealand, is on the
Bruce McLaren Trust website where its Indy History is given as :

1973 – Peter Revson works driver for Team McLaren. Painted McLaren Orange. No 15
1974 – Salt Walther drove the car in Dayton Walther colours. No 33
1975 – Bob Harkey started then Salt Walther took over the car when his car failed. No 33
1976 – David Hobbs drove the car in Dayton Walther livery. No 33.
1977 – Did not qualify
1978 – Graeme McRae qualified, but was then "bumped" from the grid by a faster qualifier
1979 – Did not qualify
1980 – Jerry Karl added ground effects and a stock block 6 litre Chevrolet engine.
1981 – Jerry Karl ran as the Tonco Trailers Special

Duncan Fox, who rebuilt this one, is an occasional contributor here.

[theunions]

Does Walther still keep the mangled tub of M16C D in his living room?

[Henri Greuter]

First of all, thanks for all replies fellows!
I will reply on all the comments etc. later on.

My next post will be the full list as I have deducted it till yesterday evening, that is without the additional comments posted till now.

Keep those messages coming in!

Henri Greuter

[Henri Greuter]

This is my second posting with the McLaren M16 chassis allocations at Indy.
Since I had to correct a few facts listed in the opening post, I decided on posting the entire list and record in one and the same post yet again. Consider the opening post as not correct anymore.
So this is what I know up to 1/10/2003


This chassis record is far from complete and certainly not complete/correct. It is based on info as can be found within the Carl Hungness yearbooks and the Jack Fox “Illustrated history of the Indy 500” and Doug Nye's "McLaren F1, Can-Am and Indy cars (Second edition)"
About the Hungenss books, it is known that they obtained their info from Bob Laycock, who is considere to be the definite source of chassis registration history at Indy. But on occasion it is known his register wasn’t correct in details and this might have happened too with the M16’s. Laycock also depended on what was told to him and the info supplied to him. So in case of errors, don’t blame Hungness, neither Laycock. They did the best they could.

Since chassis numbers are not known, I enlisted each car a Roman number, in years when new cars appeared, factory entered cars were given the lower numbers, then the Penske entries and whatever followed on privateers.
Like Michael Ferner already mentioned in his reaction on my opener, it is of more interest to track the records for a certain chassis, no matter which chassis plate it got from the factory. Nevertheless, specially when it concerns publications worldwide available, it definitely helps if a certain car has a chassis number available to use and refer to instead of things like the `Monaco car`, the `Lauda T2` or name it what you want. In this case, I mentioned the existence of 5 M16B’s built in 1972, must we refer to the driver who drove a certain car in 1972 to identify a particular? Maybe another historian numbered the cars differently then I did because of for example ranking them to starting numbers. That’s why I prefer to refer to a car using its chassis number if available and list its records accordingly.
Not F1 related but back in 1997 I went to a Dutch car museum to identify a few old Indycars, among them a heavily modified Roadster. No chassis tags to find of the original chassis but later on I was informed by specialists within the USA that I had found the “Hopkins Car”, also known in certain circles as the “Vukovich Death Car” This, regrettably historic car (historic for wrong reasons) doesn’t need a chassis plate anymore to identify it and refer to in writings. But for less historical cars, it helps if we can use a worldwide, acceptable reference name or number. In my opinion a factory allocated chassis number does the job the best.

Back to the M16 list I present here. As for additional info, I’ve restricted myself to listing car number, starting position and finish place. Since the lay-out of this chatsite doesn’t accept tabs etc. (at least on my PC) I didn’t bother to compile decent statistic overviews and table those.
I am considering to do so but only if they can be visualised decently in a spreadsheet like appearance.
I know this is a mainly F1 orientated forum. Nevertheless I hope some of us may have some help and or pleasure from this list and that over time we can extend and correct it.



OK, here we go, first on reprise for the 1971 and 1972 built cars.

1971: the type A: 3 cars built

1971-I: First built car, prototype, known to be delivered to Penske. Car told to have appeared at Indy for first time in 1974 but other reports (Nye) state that it was Donohue’s mount in ’71, after being damaged in the 500 repaired and then won Pocono 500.

1971 #66 Donohue 2/25
1972 history unknown
1973 history unknown
1974 #74 John Mahler DNQ
1975 #86 Al Loquasto DNQ
1976 #86 Al Loquasto 24/25
1977 #86 Al Loquasto 15/28
1978 #86 Al Loquasto DNQ


1971-II:
1971 #15 Peter Revson 1/2
1972 #86 Peter Revson (backup entry)
1973 #3 Roger McCluskey 14/3
1974 #41 Roger McCluskey (practice only)
1975 #75 Graham McRae DNQ
1976 #19 Spike Gehlhausen 25/33
1977 #19 Spike Gehlhausen (wrecked)

During 73-75 this car was recognizable for its unusual front wings which were from a type reminiscent to the ones also seen at the STP Eagles of ’73.


1971-III:
1971 #85 Denny Hulme 4/17
1972 till 1976 history unknown
1977 #36 Jerry Sneva 16/10 (??????)

The 1977 yearbook lists that Jerry Sneva raced a 1971 car, believed to be Donohue’s car, which was then driven in 1972 by Salt Walther. This is for sure wrong since Walther qualified a Colt-Ford in 1972 (retired in the first lap so he hardly raced it….) Therefore, assuming that it is indeed a 1971 built car, it has to be the car, driven by Hulme in 1971

Well, if you think sorting out the 1971 cars was confusing, we’ve only just begon to unveil some of the mess! Here come the 1972 built cars.


1972: the type B: at least 4, perhaps 5 cars built, I have seen a chassis plate of a car to be restored which read M16B-02


1972-I (I have reasons to believe this could be the M16B-02)
1972 #12 Peter Revson 2/31
1973 #89 John Martin 24/8
1974 #89 John Martin 22/11
1975 #89 John Martin 16/27

1972-II
1972 #24 Gordon Johncock 26/20
See furtheron for more stories

1972-III
1972 #7 Gary Bettenhausen 4/14
No further data found positively identifying this car anymore.

1972-IV
1972 #66 Mark Donohue 3/1
1973 Entered as backup car, identity however unknown (Penske entry?)
1974 #56 Jim Hurtubise 28/25
1975 #56 Jim Hurtubise DNQ
1976 History unknown
1977 History unknown
1978 #52 (not on track)
Car currently in possession Indianapolis Motor Speedway, restored as Donohue’s ’72 winner


I kind of dislike Jerry Sneva! Did he cause problems in allocating the chassis of the 1971 built cars in 1977, he does it again one year later for the 1972 cars.
The 1978 yearbooks list him driving a ’72 McLaren, heavily modified and without the familiar lines (hip-mounted radiators) with the following history:
1972 #24 Gordon Johncock 26/20
1973 McCluskey driving only
1974 McCluskey driving only
1975 #89 John Martin 16/27
1976 not entered
1977 #30 Bob Harkey DNQ.
1978 #30 Jerry Sneva 32/31

This record contains entries of at least 3 previously listed cars! 1971-I for 1974, 1972-II for 1972 and 1971-I for 1973. If McCluskey indeed drove this car in 1973 it must have been his backup car that year and then he also must have had 2 Mac’s for backup to his Riley-Offy in ’74.
If it is either 1972-I or 1972-II, your guess is as good as mines but I think we’re dealing with the Johncock machine of ’72 but with the data about 73-75 mixed up.


Then, another 1972 built car is appearing in the 1973 yearbook, told to be a new one with no previous race history.
1972 History (if any) unknown
1973 #77 Salt Walther 17/33
Watching the pictures of the car after Walther’s mishap I think it is very unlikely that this car has ever been rebuilt and used again.


OK, up to the 1973 built cars….

1973 M16C: At least 4 cars built but perhaps 6 built? (Nye mentions 6 in his book)

1973-I
1973 #15 Peter Revson 10/31
1974 #77 Salt Walther 14/17
1975 #33 Bob Harkey/Salt Walther 23/10
(Walther took over after own car failed)
1976 #33 David Hobbs 31/29
1977 #33 Graham McRae, Salt Walther DNQ
1978 #34 Graham McRae DNQ


1973-II
1973 #7 Johnny Rutherford 1/9
1974 #3 Johnny Rutherford 25/1
Car known to exist in the ’74 colors up until in the early ‘90’s at IMS museum.

1973-III
1973 #5 Gary Bettenhausen 5/5
No further positive identified referings to this car anymore

1973-IV
1973 #12 Bobby Allisson 12/32
No further positive identified referings to this car anymore

The cars numbered III and IV have not been mentioned as being these ’73 raced cars in any of the yearbooks anymore. Where these two cars have gone is a complete mystery for me with the info I have available.
Within the 1974 yearbook however appear two other Penske entries, told to be updated 1973 models. There is absolutely no clue known to me if these two cars are the III and/or IV or indeed different tubes. So I have no choice but assign new chassis identification numbers for them. That does however bring the total of 1973 built chassis up to the 6 cars as Doug Nye mentions within his book

1973-V
1973 History unknown
1974 #8 Gary Bettenhausen 11/32
1975 #68 Tom Sneva 4/22
Car disappeared from the records then, not strange. Sneva had a hell of an accident with the car which wiped the chassis out.

1974-VI
1973 History unknown
1974 #68 Mike Hiss 3/14
1975 #16 Bobby Allison 13/25
1976 #6 Mario Andretti 19/8
From here on, the career of this car is not sure. My best guess for this car is that it was the second Theodore Racing entry, number #39. This team had another M16 with Penske Pedigree so I think it is very likely that Theodore Racing bought both the M16 as raced by Penske in ’76 Assuming this is right, then don’t bother to search for this chassis anymore: after Regga crashed it, it was cubed.
1977 #39 Clay Reggazoni (wrecked)



1974: McLaren M16C/D: Only one car of 1974 origin in the 1974 starting field, later on a second chassis, told to be a 1974 built tub appears, built after May ’74?

1974-I
1974 #73 David Hobbs 9/5
1975 #77 Salt Walther 9/33
1976 #77 Salt Walther 22/9
1977 #77 Salt Walther DNQ
1978 #88 Jerry Karl 28/14
From here on the story becomes unsure. Karl had a backup car that looks lot like an M16 but may have been a copycat. Anyway, he failed to qualify a M16-Offy in ’79. Karl raced two more years in a reworked McLaren that was converted into a groundeffects machine, using the number #38. The engine used was a Chevy V8. The entry lists for those years stated he had two such cars. I think it is very likely that Karl used this particular chassis for his efforts but it is unclear if this chassis was either the primary #38 he used in ’80 and ’81 or the backup that was entered as #39. Thus likely it is correct to continue the list with:
1979 #38 Jerry Karl DNQ ????
Tub modified into a Chevy V8 powered wingcar
1980 #38 or #39 Jerry Karl entry
1981 #38 or #39 Jerry Karl entry

Then, in 1976, another 1974 built tube appears within the yearbook as a Team Penske Entry. How are the odds on this particular car being an earlier chassis, modified up to 1974 standards?
1974 History unknown
1975 #66 Entered but not run
1976 #68 Tom Sneva 3/6
1977 #38 Clay Reggazoni 20/30


1975: McLaren M16E, two cars built. Both these cars used rather unusual radiator `boxes` at Indy in 1975 but retained classic radiator boxes from 1976 on.

1975-I
1975 #2 Johnny Rutherford 7/2
No positive identification referring to this car found anymore but possibly this was the second Team McLaren entry in 1976 (Entered as #16), Rutherford’s backup car that was told to be identical to his primary car. Is this the one M16 in the current McLaren collection, being restored back tot the ’75 Gatorade colors?

1975-II
1975 #7 Lloyd Ruby 6/32
1976 #2 Johnny Rutherford 1/1
1977 #29 Cliff Hucul 27/22
1978 #29 Cliff Hucul 27/33
1979 #29 Cifff Hucul 18/29

These are all the different chassis I have found being built. But keep in mind, some of the Penske cars may well be given two different numbers for the same car.


***********************************

Now we come to the genuine McMysteries: the cars definitely identified as McLarens in a certain year but which can’t be allocated to one of the chassis as listed above.
As is clear, a number of cars that failed to qualify are not listed simply because these are often not documentated.

Unidentified M16 entries are:

1976 #16 Team McLaren Backup car
The 1976 yearbook mentions Rutherford having 2 near identical cars at hand, both running with #2. Most likely this is chassis 1975-II

1976 #91 John Mahler DNQ
This appears to be a teamcar to the #19 (1971-II) qualified by Spike Gehlhausen that year but #91 never started the race.

1977 #39 Clay Reggazoni (wrecked)
Without positive evidence logistics suggest that the must likely candidate for this entry is chassis 1974-VI

1977 #80 Larry Dickson (wrecked)
No clue which chassis this could have been.

1979 #30 Dana Carter DNQ.
This car has the number and looks very much like the #30 driven in 1978 by Jerry Sneva, thus possibly the 1972-I or II

1979 #38 Jerry Karl DNQ
Must likely candidate for this entry is chassis 1974-I

1979 #41 Bill Alsup DNQ


The following 1980 entries are pictured within the 1980 yearbook and appear at the entrylist within the book.
1980 #38 Jerry Karl 28/21 (M16-Chevy wingcar)

1980 #19 Dana Carter DNQ
1980 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ
1980 #67 Bob Harkey DNQ (The Hungness book features an entry list which tells this car had an Offy engine, Fox however states it to have had a Chevy)

Entered but no photographic evidence available to me that it was at the track and in what kind of shape was a backup entry by Jerry Karl, an M16-Chevy. If this car was also rebuilt into a wingcar is thus unclear.
1980 #39 Jerry Karl (backup entry, Chevy V8, wingcar conversion?)


The following 1981 entries are pictured within the 1981 yearbook and listed in the entrylist published within the same book as followed.

1981 #38 Jerry Karl 15/15

1981 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ (Chevy V8 engine)
1981 #52 Larry Rice DNQ (engine listed as a Rassey)
1981 #57 John Martin DNQ

Entered but no photographic evidence available to me that it was at the track and in what kind of shape was a backup entry by Jerry Karl, an M16-Chevy. If this car was also rebuilt into a wingcar is thus unclear.
1981 #39 Jerry Karl (backup entry, Chevy V8, wingcar conversion?)

Another car which appears at the entry list but of which no photographic evidence that it was actually at the track is an M16-Offy entered for Dennis Firestone but which never obtained a starting number, indicting how serious this entry must have been taken.


Some of the unassigned entries listed above can be deducted to be for one and the same car. Thus, despite we can’t give the car a name and link it with one of the records mentioned already, we can create something of a chassis register which, maybe eventually can be added to any of the chassisrecords above

197?-I This car was entered twice by Bill Alsup, thus likely the same chassis. Given the fact that Alsup had some connections with Penske (drover for Penske in later years) this M16 may well be any of the ex-Penske cars, perhaps the 1977 Theodore entry of Reggazoni
1979 #41 Bill Alsup DNQ
1980 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ
Caliva also DNQ a McLaren-Chevy in 1981, also using the #49. Perhaps the same car?


197?-II This is the Jerry Karl modified, Chevy powered wingcar he qualified and raced in both ’80 and ’81. There is a chance that this is the 1974-I chassis.
1980 #38 Jerry Karl 28/21
1981 #38 Jerry Karl 15/15


197?-III This is the Jerry Karl modified, Chevy powered M16, possibly also modified int a wingcar and entered as a backup in both ’80 and ’81. Also here there is a chance that this is the 1974-I chassis.
1980 #39 Jerry Karl (backup)
1981 #39 Jerry Karl (backup)


Entering the zone of the real McMess: Possible M16’s (or Rascar & Kingfish clones?)

Talk about a real mess: This one.
The Fox Bible and the ’73 Yearbook list 2 `missed the show` entries for Team Penske, one that did not arrive, one was crashed by Al Loquasto.
Now we know that Penske had M16’s since 1971 and had sold off his 1971 car already. But would these two entries have been anything else but M16’s? Not likely. Nevertheless I haven’t seen pictures of the #86 to identify the car as an M16, but I bet it was.

1973 #68 Did not arrive.
1973 #86 Al Loquasto (wrecked)

Now: remember that the two cars Team Penske raced in ’73 vanished from the scene and in ‘74 two new ’73 built cars appeared. This means that this #86 can be 1 of 4(!) candidates:
1972-III, 1972-IV, 1973-V or 1973-VI.


Finally, within the `missed the show` pages of the several yearbooks I spotted the following cars which looked very much like M16’s and may well have been such. Regrettably I couldn’t find a name of the chassis for these entries

1978 #87 Jerry Karl (backup)
Given the fact that in the following two years Karl owned two modified McLaren-Chevy’s, this may well have been the second one in addition to the 1974-I he also owned.

1979 #20 John Martin (DNQ)

[theunions]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Then, another 1972 built car is appearing in the 1973 yearbook, told to be a new one with no previous race history.
1972 History (if any) unknown
1973 #77 Salt Walther 17/33
Watching the pictures of the car after Walther’s mishap I think it is very unlikely that this car has ever been rebuilt and used again.

Like I noted above, it most certainly was never rebuilt and used again, because Salt has (had?) it propped up against his living room wall ever since. At least that was the case before he went to jail for his Dilaudid/golf cart thefts (when I last saw a contemporary interview with him in his living room). To reiterate my question - does he still have it?

[Henri Greuter]

Gerr wrote

Henri, About the Jerry Sneva M16B of 1978. Chuck Haines sent me some info when he was selling M16B-02, about 1991. The car was last raced by Cliff Hucul in 1981 (at Michigan,twice and at Milwaukee ) with the number 57 for Metro Racing.
The car is/was red with "Cliff Hucul" on the sides of the windscreen and "Owner G.Jules Bickel, Jack Engelhardt" on the engine cover. The car was also at Indy in '81 for John Martin as #57.

In the photos you can see two USAC serial/registration labels. One is "0030", the other is "0357".
I think the first two digits represent the year and the second pair the car number. "00" being 1978 and "03" being 1981. If so the car was the Jerry Sneva #30 of 1978. It is also missing the hip-mounted rads.

Is this the same M16B-02 that you saw, awaiting restoration ?


Gerr,

I saw the car in January 1999 and it was totally in pieces at that time, to the bare naked aluminum. I am not permitted by the owner to tell where I saw it. He mentioned to me it was an ex-Revson car but other than that the history was not secure. In fact, he had the car but his interest was in other (sports)cars and man I couldn't believe the other cars I saw that day.
In the one pic of the '81 #57 in the '81 Hungness the car appears to be very standard M16C/D again.

Thanks for your info!


to theunions,

I have no idea if Salt still has the tub. He's not on my list of people I'm familiar with, let alone on speaking or other kind of communicating terms.
Maybe this is the wrong forum to straighten this all out and do we need to go to an Indy specialized forum for that?

Henri





Henri

[Allen Brown]

Henri

This is a fabulous piece of work!

I can add some details from cars that exist today that may help. If the hostories given match your research, then they may allow us to attach chassis numbers to two of the M16Cs.

M16C/2
After Peter Revson's crash at Indy in 1973, M16C-2 was his new Team McLaren Car. He qualified it on the pole at both Pocono and Ontario. This car was sold to Salt Walther at the end of the 1973 season. Indy History is as follows: 1974 Salt Walther, 1975 Harkey/Walther, 1976 David Hobbs. Jerry Karl purchased the car in 1978 as a backup, then converted it to a stock block Chevy V8 and ran the 1980 Indy (placing 21'st) and in 1981 finished in a well run 15th place. (oldest McLaren in the field). (from www.mathewscollection.com). Equates to your chassis 1973-I.

M16C/5
Auctioned Monterey 2001: Lot # 25 1974 McLaren M16C Indianapolis Winner, S/N M16C-5; Not sold at Hammer bid of $500,000. See http://www.rickcarey.com. Equates to your chassis 1973-II.

Also, in the 1976 Yearbook, the Loquasto M16 is said to have not run in 1973 and not been entered in 1971 and 1972. Otherwise it matches your chassis 1971-I. Could there have been a fourth M16A?

Allen

[doc540]

Which McLaren is this?
Pic Link: Restoration


Pic Link: Indy

[Henri Greuter]

doc540

Which McLaren is this?


An M24-Cosworth, either the '77 or '78 factory entry for Rutherford. Don't know the numbers johnny used those years.


Henri Greuter

[Henri Greuter]

to Allen Brown,

Thanks for your info! much appreciated!

About the Loquasto '71 car, it's indeed all very strange. There are more uncertainties about some of the eldest cars (Jerry Sneva ending up with most of these cars)
From my understanding, there were only three carrs built in 1971 but the donohue car was mangled during the race and being repaired later on, affectively around a new tub, taking the same chassis number.
I will get back on that later on.

Looks as if perhaps I need Don Capps' cooperation to add and correct within the original thread eventually.
Don, if you read this, is there anything we could do to update this list if needed?
Many thanks in advance.




In the mean time Two type errors to correct:

1976 #16 Team McLaren Backup car
The 1976 yearbook mentions Rutherford having 2 near identical cars at hand, both running with #2. Most likely this is chassis 1975-II

Must read as:

1976 #16 Team McLaren Backup car
The 1976 yearbook mentions Rutherford having 2 near identical cars at hand, both running with #2. Most likely this is chassis 1975-I


second correction

197?-I This car was entered twice by Bill Alsup, thus likely the same chassis. Given the fact that Alsup had some connections with Penske (drover for Penske in later years) this M16 may well be any of the ex-Penske cars, perhaps the 1977 Theodore entry of Reggazoni
1979 #41 Bill Alsup DNQ
1980 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ
Caliva also DNQ a McLaren-Chevy in 1981, also using the #49. Perhaps the same car?

must read as:

197?-I This car was entered twice by Bill Alsup, thus likely the same chassis. Given the fact that
Alsup had some connections with Penske (drover for Penske in later years) this M16 may well be any of the ex-Penske cars, perhaps the 1977 Theodore entry of Reggazoni
1979 #41 Bill Alsup DNQ
1980 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ
Caliva also DNQ a McLaren-Chevy in 1981, also using the #47. Perhaps the same car?

Thanks everyone,


Henri greuter

[doc540]

SOMEWHERE I have a picture of the I.D. tag barely visible in the pictue above. It was riveted along the edge of the cockpit.

I'll try to find the year of JR.'s Indy entry. It should be fairly easy since he told me it was Budweiser Beer's first sponsorship of an Indy car.

[Henri Greuter]

To Allen Brown,


Allen,
Once again thanks for the info regarding that one M16
By now I am near certain that what I regarded to be one and the same car are in fact two cars.
The error I made is this one.

In the '74 yearbook it is indeed stated within the picture that Walther's M16 was driven in '73 by Revson. I automatically assumed (I talk about some 16 to 18 years ago) that it meant that Revson drove the car at Indy. However, all other cars with a history at Indy that qualified in '74 had their careers listed. Walther's car lacks Revson's '73 record. Só the chances that it is indeed the '73 Revson car are minimal.

It means however that for this list I must `split` the 1973-I up into a `new`1973-I and a 1973-VII, wich goes much against Doug Nye's comment withinhis book that there were 6 cars built. But who know, because of the Penske uncertainties there are still different chassis allocations out for one and the same car.
And perhaps the '73 Revson car has been rebuilt and later appeared again as one of the Penske carts, who knows.



Anyway: What reads as:

1973-I
1973 #15 Peter Revson 10/31
1974 #77 Salt Walther 14/17
1975 #33 Bob Harkey/Salt Walther 23/10
(Walther took over after own car failed)
1976 #33 David Hobbs 31/29
1977 #33 Graham McRae, Salt Walther DNQ
1978 #34 Graham McRae DNQ


Must become:

1973-I
1973 #15 Peter Revson 10/31
Car disappeared after crash by revson at Indy, rebuilt and appeard later on as a new car within the list?

1973-VII
1973 #15 Peter Revson 1973 raced this car after Indy
1974 #77 Salt Walther 14/17
1975 #33 Bob Harkey/Salt Walther 23/10
(Walther took over after own car failed)
1976 #33 David Hobbs 31/29
1977 #33 Graham McRae, Salt Walther DNQ
1978 #34 Graham McRae DNQ
1979 exact history unclear, entered as backup for Jerry Karl
1980 #38 Jerry Karl 28/21 (Chevy V8 powered wingcar)
1980 #39 Jerry Karl 15/15 (Chevy V8 powered wingcar)

With this paticular chassis being confirmed to be the car raced by Karl in '80 and '81, that virtually assures that the 1974-I chassis as raced by Karl in '78 as M16-Offy likely was his backupcar, entered in '80 and '81 as the #39. I never saw a picture of the #39 of those years so I am not sure if Karl had that car modified into a wingcar chassis too.

Thanks Allen!



Henri Greuter

[fines]

Sorry for not joining in here lately, but I'm VERRY busy this week - I'll see to it that I will post something around the weekend.

Keep up the good work!

[Duncan Fox]

OK, here we go, first on reprise for the 1971 and 1972 built cars.

1971: the type A: 4 cars built

1971-I: First built car, prototype, M16-1 known to be delivered to Penske. reports (Nye) state that it was Donohue’s mount in ’71,Yes. after being damaged in the 500 repaired used as b/up, sold to Bidwell bros entered in 76 dnr.77 Jerry Sneva. 78 Jerry Karl#87.
1971 #66 Donohue Pocono 500
1972 not entered
1973 not run dna #68
1974 #74 John Mahler DNQ
1975 #86 Al Loquasto DNQ
1976 #86 Al Loquasto 24/25
1977 #86 Al Loquasto 15/28
1978 #86 Al Loquasto DNQ
These results belong to M16-4

1971-II: M16-2
1971 #15 Peter Revson 1/2
1972 #86 Peter Revson (backup entry)sold to Hopkins Mar72
1973 #3 Roger McCluskey 14/3
1974 #41 Roger McCluskey (practice only)
1975 #75 Graham McRae DNQ
1976 #19 Spike Gehlhausen 25/33
1977 #19 Spike Gehlhausen (wrecked)

During 73-75 this car was recognizable for its unusual front wings which were from a type reminiscent to the ones also seen at the STP Eagles of ’73.


1971-III: M16-3
1971 #85 Denny Hulme 4/17
1972 not used
1973 Walther crashed.

The 1977 yearbook lists that Jerry Sneva raced a 1971 car, believed to be Donohue’s car, which was then driven in 1972 by Salt Walther. This is for sure wrong since Walther qualified a Colt-Ford in 1972 (retired in the first lap so he hardly raced it….) Therefore, assuming that it is indeed a 1971 built car, it has to be the car, driven by Hulme in 1971. No this is M16-1

Well, if you think sorting out the 1971 cars was confusing, we’ve only just begon to unveil some of the mess! Here come the 1972 built cars.


1972: the type B: at least 4, perhaps 5 cars built, I have seen a chassis plate of a car to be restored which read M16B-02 4 built total


1972-I (I have reasons to believe this could be the M16B-02) yes
1972 #12 Peter Revson 2/31
1973 #89 John Martin 24/8
1974 #89 John Martin 22/11
1975 #89 John Martin 16/27

1972-II M16B-3
1972 #24 Gordon Johncock 26/20
See furtheron for more stories

1972-III M16B-4
1972 #7 Gary Bettenhausen 4/14
1973 Laquosto crashed.

1972-IV M16B-1
1972 #66 Mark Donohue 3/1
1973 Entered as backup car, identity however unknown (Penske entry?) Walther b/up
1974 #56 Jim Hurtubise 28/25
1975 #56 Jim Hurtubise DNQ
1976 History unknown
1977 History unknown
1978 #52 (not on track)
Car currently in possession Indianapolis Motor Speedway, restored as Donohue’s ’72 winner


I kind of dislike Jerry Sneva! Did he cause problems in allocating the chassis of the 1971 built cars in 1977, he does it again one year later for the 1972 cars.
The 1978 yearbooks list him driving a ’72 McLaren, M16B-3 heavily modified and without the familiar lines (hip-mounted radiators) with the following history:
1972 #24 Gordon Johncock 26/20
1973 McCluskey driving only
1974 McCluskey driving only
1975 #89 John Martin 16/27
1976 not entered
1977 #30 Bob Harkey DNQ.
1978 #30 Jerry Sneva 32/31

This record contains entries of at least 3 previously listed cars! 1971-I for 1974, 1972-II for 1972 and 1971-I for 1973. If McCluskey indeed drove this car in 1973 it must have been his backup car that year and then he also must have had 2 Mac’s for backup to his Riley-Offy in ’74.
If it is either 1972-I or 1972-II, your guess is as good as mines but I think we’re dealing with the Johncock machine of ’72 but with the data about 73-75 mixed up.


Then, another 1972 built car M16-3 is appearing in the 1973 yearbook, told to be a new one with no previous race history. factory B upgrade
1972 History (if any) unknown
1973 #77 Salt Walther 17/33
Watching the pictures of the car after Walther’s mishap I think it is very unlikely that this car has ever been rebuilt and used again.


OK, up to the 1973 built cars….

1973 M16C: At least 4 cars built but perhaps 6 built? (Nye mentions 6 in his book)

1973-I M16C-2
1973 #15 Peter Revson Pocono 500
1974 #77 Salt Walther 14/17
1975 #33 Bob Harkey/Salt Walther 23/10
(Walther took over after own car failed)
1976 #33 David Hobbs 31/29
1977 #33 Graham McRae, Salt Walther DNQ
1978 #34 Graham McRae DNQ


1973-II M16C-5
1973 #7 Johnny Rutherford 1/9
1974 #3 Johnny Rutherford 25/1. 75 Pocono 500. 76practice IMS. 77 Walther qual 78 McRea DNQ
Car known to exist in the ’74 colors up until in the early ‘90’s at IMS museum.

1973-III M16C-3
1973 #5 Gary Bettenhausen 5/5
No further positive identified referings to this car anymore 74 Bettenhausen. 75 Sneva crashed.

1973-IV M16C-1
1973 #12 Bobby Allisson 12/32
No further positive identified referings to this car anymore

The cars numbered III and IV have not been mentioned as being these ’73 raced cars in any of the yearbooks anymore. Where these two cars have gone is a complete mystery for me with the info I have available.
Within the 1974 yearbook however appear two other Penske entries, told to be updated 1973 models. There is absolutely no clue known to me if these two cars are the III and/or IV or indeed different tubes. So I have no choice but assign new chassis identification numbers for them. That does however bring the total of 1973 built chassis up to the 6 cars as Doug Nye mentions within his book

1973-V M16C-3
1973 History unknown
1974 #8 Gary Bettenhausen 11/32
1975 #68 Tom Sneva 4/22
Car disappeared from the records then, not strange. Sneva had a hell of an accident with the car which wiped the chassis out.

1974-VI M16C-1
1973 History unknown
1974 #68 Mike Hiss 3/14
1975 #16 Bobby Allison 13/25
1976 #6 Mario Andretti 19/8
From here on, the career of this car is not sure. My best guess for this car is that it was the second Theodore Racing entry, number #39. This team had another M16 with Penske Pedigree so I think it is very likely that Theodore Racing bought both the M16 as raced by Penske in ’76 Assuming this is right, then don’t bother to search for this chassis anymore: after Regga crashed it, it was cubed.
1977 #39 Clay Reggazoni (wrecked)



1974: McLaren M16C/D: Only one car of 1974 origin in the 1974 starting field, later on a second chassis, told to be a 1974 built tub appears, built after May ’74?

1974-I M16C/D-6
1974 #73 David Hobbs 9/5
1975 #77 Salt Walther 9/33
1976 #77 Salt Walther 22/9
1977 #77 Salt Walther DNQ
1978 #88 Jerry Karl 28/14
From here on the story becomes unsure. Karl had a backup car that looks lot like an M16 but may have been a copycat. Anyway, he failed to qualify a M16-Offy in ’79. Karl raced two more years in a reworked McLaren that was converted into a groundeffects machine, using the number #38. The engine used was a Chevy V8. The entry lists for those years stated he had two such cars. I think it is very likely that Karl used this particular chassis for his efforts but it is unclear if this chassis was either the primary #38 he used in ’80 and ’81 or the backup that was entered as #39. Thus likely it is correct to continue the list with:
1979 #38 Jerry Karl DNQ ???? yes
Tub modified into a Chevy V8 powered wingcar
1980 #39 Jerry Karl entry 1981 #39 Jerry Karl entry

Then, in 1976, another 1974 built tube M16C-4 sold to Penske Nov 74. appears within the yearbook as a Team Penske Entry. How are the odds on this particular car being an earlier chassis, modified up to 1974 standards?
1974 History unknown
1975 #66 Entered but not run Pocono 500
1976 #68 Tom Sneva 3/6
1977 #38 Clay Reggazoni 20/30


1975: McLaren M16E, two cars built. Both these cars used rather unusual radiator `boxes` at Indy in 1975 but retained classic radiator boxes from 1976 on.

1975-I M16E-1
1975 #2 Johnny Rutherford 7/2
No positive identification referring to this car found anymore but possibly this was the second Team McLaren entry in 1976 (Entered as #16), Rutherford’s backup car that was told to be identical to his primary car. Is this the one M16 in the current McLaren collection, being restored back tot the ’75 Gatorade colors? Yes

1975-II M16E-2
1975 #7 Lloyd Ruby 6/32
1976 #2 Johnny Rutherford 1/1
1977 #29 Cliff Hucul 27/22
1978 #29 Cliff Hucul 27/33
1979 #29 Cifff Hucul 18/29

These are all the different chassis I have found being built. But keep in mind, some of the Penske cars may well be given two different numbers for the same car.


***********************************

Now we come to the genuine McMysteries: the cars definitely identified as McLarens in a certain year but which can’t be allocated to one of the chassis as listed above.
As is clear, a number of cars that failed to qualify are not listed simply because these are often not documentated.

Unidentified M16 entries are:

1976 #16 Team McLaren Backup car
The 1976 yearbook mentions Rutherford having 2 near identical cars at hand, both running with #2. Most likely this is chassis 1975-II M16E-1

1976 #91 John Mahler DNQ
This appears to be a teamcar to the #19 (1971-II) qualified by Spike Gehlhausen that year but #91 never started the race.

1977 #39 Clay Reggazoni (wrecked)
Without positive evidence logistics suggest that the must likely candidate for this entry is chassis 1974-VI M16C-1

1977 #80 Larry Dickson (wrecked)
No clue which chassis this could have been.

1979 #30 Dana Carter DNQ.
This car has the number and looks very much like the #30 driven in 1978 by Jerry Sneva, thus possibly the 1972-I or II

1979 #38 Jerry Karl DNQ
Must likely candidate for this entry is chassis 1974-I M16C/D-6

1979 #41 Bill Alsup DNQ M16C-4


The following 1980 entries are pictured within the 1980 yearbook and appear at the entrylist within the book.
1980 #38 Jerry Karl 28/21 (M16-Chevy wingcar) M16C-2

1980 #19 Dana Carter DNQ
1980 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ M16C-4
1980 #67 Bob Harkey DNQ (The Hungness book features an entry list which tells this car had an Offy engine, Fox however states it to have had a Chevy)

Entered but no photographic evidence available to me that it was at the track and in what kind of shape was a backup entry by Jerry Karl, an M16-Chevy. If this car was also rebuilt into a wingcar is thus unclear.
1980 #39 Jerry Karl (backup entry, Chevy V8, wingcar conversion?) M16C/D-6


The following 1981 entries are pictured within the 1981 yearbook and listed in the entrylist published within the same book as followed.

1981 #38 Jerry Karl 15/15 M16C-2

1981 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ (Chevy V8 engine) M16C-4
1981 #52 Larry Rice DNQ (engine listed as a Rassey)
1981 #57 John Martin DNQ

Entered but no photographic evidence available to me that it was at the track and in what kind of shape was a backup entry by Jerry Karl, an M16-Chevy. If this car was also rebuilt into a wingcar is thus unclear.
1981 #39 Jerry Karl (backup entry, Chevy V8, wingcar conversion?) M16C/D-6

Another car which appears at the entry list but of which no photographic evidence that it was actually at the track is an M16-Offy entered for Dennis Firestone but which never obtained a starting number, indicting how serious this entry must have been taken.


Some of the unassigned entries listed above can be deducted to be for one and the same car. Thus, despite we can’t give the car a name and link it with one of the records mentioned already, we can create something of a chassis register which, maybe eventually can be added to any of the chassisrecords above

197?-I This car was entered twice by Bill Alsup, thus likely the same chassis. Given the fact that Alsup had some connections with Penske (drover for Penske in later years) this M16 may well be any of the ex-Penske cars M16C-4 , perhaps the 1977 Theodore entry of Reggazoni Yes
1979 #41 Bill Alsup DNQ
1980 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ
Caliva also DNQ a McLaren-Chevy in 1981, also using the #49. Perhaps the same car? Yes


197?-II This is the Jerry Karl modified, Chevy powered wingcar he qualified and raced in both ’80 and ’81. There is a chance that this is the 1974-I chassis. M16C-2
1980 #38 Jerry Karl 28/21
1981 #38 Jerry Karl 15/15


197?-III This is the Jerry Karl modified, Chevy powered M16, possibly also modified int a wingcar and entered as a backup in both ’80 and ’81. Also here there is a chance that this is the 1974-I chassis. M16C/D-6
1980 #39 Jerry Karl (backup)
1981 #39 Jerry Karl (backup)


Entering the zone of the real McMess: Possible M16’s (or Rascar & Kingfish clones?)

Talk about a real mess: This one.
The Fox Bible and the ’73 Yearbook list 2 `missed the show` entries for Team Penske, one that did not arrive, one was crashed by Al Loquasto.
Now we know that Penske had M16’s since 1971 and had sold off his 1971 car already. But would these two entries have been anything else but M16’s? Not likely. Nevertheless I haven’t seen pictures of the #86 to identify the car as an M16, but I bet it was.

1973 #68 Did not arrive. M16-4
1973 #86 Al Loquasto (wrecked) M16B-4

Now: remember that the two cars Team Penske raced in ’73 vanished from the scene and in ‘74 two new ’73 built cars appeared. This means that this #86 can be 1 of 4(!) candidates:
1972-III, 1972-IV, 1973-V or 1973-VI.


Finally, within the `missed the show` pages of the several yearbooks I spotted the following cars which looked very much like M16’s and may well have been such. Regrettably I couldn’t find a name of the chassis for these entries

1978 #87 Jerry Karl (backup) M16-1
Given the fact that in the following two years Karl owned two modified McLaren-Chevy’s, this may well have been the second one in addition to the 1974-I he also owned.

1979 #20 John Martin (DNQ) This list was prepared around Mclaren records of the movement of cars to the 1st private owners after McLaren & Penske. Walther plays abig part here as he purchased at least 5 cars. What do you think?????

[Allen Brown]

I found it hard to see the text that Duncan had added and removed in his fabulous post so I've highlighted his additions in bold blue and shown his deletions in italic gray. I think I've messed up some of the formatting in the process but I hope you find the results useful. (edited because I noticed I'd lost some lines in the process*)

OK, here we go, first on reprise for the 1971 and 1972 built cars.


1971: the type A: 34 cars built


1971-I:
First built car, prototype, M16-1 known to be delivered to Penske. Car told to have appeared at Indy for first time in 1974 but other reports (Nye) state that it was Donohue’s mount in ’71,Yes. after being damaged in the 500 repaired and then won Pocono 500.
used as b/up, sold to Bidwell bros entered in 76 dnr.77 Jerry Sneva. 78 Jerry Karl#87.
1971 #66 Donohue 2/25Pocono 500
1972 history unknown
1973 history unknownnot entered
1973 not run dna #68
1974 #74 John Mahler DNQ
1975 #86 Al Loquasto DNQ
1976 #86 Al Loquasto 24/25
1977 #86 Al Loquasto 15/28
1978 #86 Al Loquasto DNQ

These results belong to M16-4


1971-II: M16-2
1971 #15 Peter Revson 1/2
1972 #86 Peter Revson (backup entry)sold to Hopkins Mar72
1973 #3 Roger McCluskey 14/3
1974 #41 Roger McCluskey (practice only)
1975 #75 Graham McRae DNQ
1976 #19 Spike Gehlhausen 25/33
1977 #19 Spike Gehlhausen (wrecked)


During 73-75 this car was recognizable for its unusual front wings which were from a type reminiscent to the ones also seen at the STP Eagles of ’73.




1971-III: M16-3
1971 #85 Denny Hulme 4/17
1972 till 1976 history unknown
1977 #36 Jerry Sneva 16/10 (??????)not used
1973 Walther crashed.


The 1977 yearbook lists that Jerry Sneva raced a 1971 car, believed to be Donohue’s car, which was then driven in 1972 by Salt Walther. This is for sure wrong since Walther qualified a Colt-Ford in 1972 (retired in the first lap so he hardly raced it….) Therefore, assuming that it is indeed a 1971 built car, it has to be the car, driven by Hulme in 1971. No this is M16-1



Well, if you think sorting out the 1971 cars was confusing, we’ve only just begon to unveil some of the mess! Here come the 1972 built cars.




1972: the type B: at least 4, perhaps 5 cars built, I have seen a chassis plate of a car to be restored which read M16B-02 4 built total




1972-I (I have reasons to believe this could be the M16B-02) yes
1972 #12 Peter Revson 2/31
1973 #89 John Martin 24/8
1974 #89 John Martin 22/11
1975 #89 John Martin 16/27


1972-II M16B-3
1972 #24 Gordon Johncock 26/20
See furtheron for more stories


1972-III M16B-4
1972 #7 Gary Bettenhausen 4/14
No further data found positively identifying this car anymore.


1972-IV1973 Laquosto crashed.


1972-IV M16B-1
1972 #66 Mark Donohue 3/1
1973 Entered as backup car, identity however unknown (Penske entry?) Walther b/up
1974 #56 Jim Hurtubise 28/25
1975 #56 Jim Hurtubise DNQ
1976 History unknown
1977 History unknown
1978 #52 (not on track)
Car currently in possession Indianapolis Motor Speedway, restored as Donohue’s ’72 winner




I kind of dislike Jerry Sneva! Did he cause problems in allocating the chassis of the 1971 built cars in 1977, he does it again one year later for the 1972 cars.
The 1978 yearbooks list him driving a ’72 McLaren, M16B-3 heavily modified and without the familiar lines (hip-mounted radiators) with the following history:
1972 #24 Gordon Johncock 26/20
1973 McCluskey driving only
1974 McCluskey driving only
1975 #89 John Martin 16/27
1976 not entered
1977 #30 Bob Harkey DNQ.
1978 #30 Jerry Sneva 32/31


This record contains entries of at least 3 previously listed cars! 1971-I for 1974, 1972-II for 1972 and 1971-I for 1973. If McCluskey indeed drove this car in 1973 it must have been his backup car that year and then he also must have had 2 Mac’s for backup to his Riley-Offy in ’74.
If it is either 1972-I or 1972-II, your guess is as good as mines but I think we’re dealing with the Johncock machine of ’72 but with the data about 73-75 mixed up.




Then, another 1972 built car M16-3 is appearing in the 1973 yearbook, told to be a new one with no previous race history. factory B upgrade
1972 History (if any) unknown
1973 #77 Salt Walther 17/33
Watching the pictures of the car after Walther’s mishap I think it is very unlikely that this car has ever been rebuilt and used again.




OK, up to the 1973 built cars….


1973 M16C: At least 4 cars built but perhaps 6 built? (Nye mentions 6 in his book)


1973-I M16C-2
1973 #15 Peter Revson 10/31Pocono 500
1974
#771974 #77 Salt Walther 14/17
1975
#331975 #33 Bob Harkey/Salt Walther 23/10
(Walther took over after own car failed)
1976
#331976 #33 David Hobbs 31/29
1977
#331977 #33 Graham McRae, Salt Walther DNQ
1978 #34 Graham McRae DNQ


1973-II



1973-II M16C-5
1973 #7 Johnny Rutherford 1/9
1974 #3 Johnny Rutherford 25/1. 75 Pocono 500. 76practice IMS. 77 Walther qual 78 McRea DNQ
Car known to exist in the ’74 colors up until in the early ‘90’s at IMS museum.


1973-III M16C-3
1973 #5 Gary Bettenhausen 5/5
No further positive identified referings to this car anymore 74 Bettenhausen. 75 Sneva crashed.


1973-IV M16C-1
1973 #12 Bobby Allisson 12/32
No further positive identified referings to this car anymore


The cars numbered III and IV have not been mentioned as being these ’73 raced cars in any of the yearbooks anymore. Where these two cars have gone is a complete mystery for me with the info I have available.
Within the 1974 yearbook however appear two other Penske entries, told to be updated 1973 models. There is absolutely no clue known to me if these two cars are the III and/or IV or indeed different tubes. So I have no choice but assign new chassis identification numbers for them. That does however bring the total of 1973 built chassis up to the 6 cars as Doug Nye mentions within his book


1973-V M16C-3
1973 History unknown
1974 #8 Gary Bettenhausen 11/32
1975 #68 Tom Sneva 4/22
Car disappeared from the records then, not strange. Sneva had a hell of an accident with the car which wiped the chassis out.


1974-VI M16C-1
1973 History unknown
1974 #68 Mike Hiss 3/14
1975 #16 Bobby Allison 13/25
1976 #6 Mario Andretti 19/8
From here on, the career of this car is not sure. My best guess for this car is that it was the second Theodore Racing entry, number #39. This team had another M16 with Penske Pedigree so I think it is very likely that Theodore Racing bought both the M16 as raced by Penske in ’76 Assuming this is right, then don’t bother to search for this chassis anymore: after Regga crashed it, it was cubed.
1977
#391977 #39 Clay Reggazoni (wrecked)






1974: McLaren M16C/D: Only one car of 1974 origin in the 1974 starting field, later on a second chassis, told to be a 1974 built tub appears, built after May ’74?


1974-I M16C/D-6
1974 #73 David Hobbs 9/5
1975 #77 Salt Walther 9/33
1976 #77 Salt Walther 22/9
1977 #77 Salt Walther DNQ
1978 #88 Jerry Karl 28/14
From here on the story becomes unsure. Karl had a backup car that looks lot like an M16 but may have been a copycat. Anyway, he failed to qualify a M16-Offy in ’79. Karl raced two more years in a reworked McLaren that was converted into a groundeffects machine, using the number #38. The engine used was a Chevy V8. The entry lists for those years stated he had two such cars. I think it is very likely that Karl used this particular chassis for his efforts but it is unclear if this chassis was either the primary #38 he used in ’80 and ’81 or the backup that was entered as #39. Thus likely it is correct to continue the list with:
1979 #38 Jerry Karl DNQ ???? yes
Tub modified into a Chevy V8 powered wingcar
1980 #38 or #39 Jerry Karl entry
1981 #38 or #39 Jerry Karl entry#39 Jerry Karl entry 1981 #39 Jerry Karl entry


Then, in 1976, another 1974 built tube M16C-4 sold to Penske Nov 74. appears within the yearbook as a Team Penske Entry. How are the odds on this particular car being an earlier chassis, modified up to 1974 standards?
1974 History unknown
1975 #66 Entered but not run Pocono 500
1976 #68 Tom Sneva 3/6
1977 #38 Clay Reggazoni 20/30




1975: McLaren M16E, two cars built. Both these cars used rather unusual radiator `boxes` at Indy in 1975 but retained classic radiator boxes from 1976 on.


1975-I M16E-1
1975 #2 Johnny Rutherford 7/2
No positive identification referring to this car found anymore but possibly this was the second Team McLaren entry in 1976 (Entered as #16), Rutherford’s backup car that was told to be identical to his primary car. Is this the one M16 in the current McLaren collection, being restored back tot the ’75 Gatorade colors? Yes


1975-II M16E-2
1975 #7 Lloyd Ruby 6/32
1976 #2 Johnny Rutherford 1/1
1977 #29 Cliff Hucul 27/22
1978 #29 Cliff Hucul 27/33
1979 #29 Cifff Hucul 18/29


These are all the different chassis I have found being built. But keep in mind, some of the Penske cars may well be given two different numbers for the same car.




***********************************


Now we come to the genuine McMysteries: the cars definitely identified as McLarens in a certain year but which can’t be allocated to one of the chassis as listed above.
As is clear, a number of cars that failed to qualify are not listed simply because these are often not documentated.


Unidentified M16 entries are:


1976 #16 Team McLaren Backup car
The 1976 yearbook mentions Rutherford having 2 near identical cars at hand, both running with #2. Most likely this is chassis 1975-II M16E-1


1976 #91 John Mahler DNQ
This appears to be a teamcar to the #19 (1971-II) qualified by Spike Gehlhausen that year but #91 never started the race.


1977 #39 Clay Reggazoni (wrecked)
Without positive evidence logistics suggest that the must likely candidate for this entry is chassis 1974-VI M16C-1


1977 #80 Larry Dickson (wrecked)
No clue which chassis this could have been.


1979 #30 Dana Carter DNQ.
This car has the number and looks very much like the #30 driven in 1978 by Jerry Sneva, thus possibly the 1972-I or II


1979 #38 Jerry Karl DNQ
Must likely candidate for this entry is chassis 1974-I M16C/D-6


1979 #41 Bill Alsup DNQ M16C-4




The following 1980 entries are pictured within the 1980 yearbook and appear at the entrylist within the book.
1980 #38 Jerry Karl 28/21 (M16-Chevy wingcar) M16C-2


1980 #19 Dana Carter DNQ
1980 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ M16C-4
1980 #67 Bob Harkey DNQ (The Hungness book features an entry list which tells this car had an Offy engine, Fox however states it to have had a Chevy)


Entered but no photographic evidence available to me that it was at the track and in what kind of shape was a backup entry by Jerry Karl, an M16-Chevy. If this car was also rebuilt into a wingcar is thus unclear.
1980 #39 Jerry Karl (backup entry, Chevy V8, wingcar conversion?) M16C/D-6




The following 1981 entries are pictured within the 1981 yearbook and listed in the entrylist published within the same book as followed.


1981 #38 Jerry Karl 15/15 M16C-2


1981 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ (Chevy V8 engine) M16C-4
1981 #52 Larry Rice DNQ (engine listed as a Rassey)
1981 #57 John Martin DNQ


Entered but no photographic evidence available to me that it was at the track and in what kind of shape was a backup entry by Jerry Karl, an M16-Chevy. If this car was also rebuilt into a wingcar is thus unclear.
1981 #39 Jerry Karl (backup entry, Chevy V8, wingcar conversion?) M16C/D-6


Another car which appears at the entry list but of which no photographic evidence that it was actually at the track is an M16-Offy entered for Dennis Firestone but which never obtained a starting number, indicting how serious this entry must have been taken.




Some of the unassigned entries listed above can be deducted to be for one and the same car. Thus, despite we can’t give the car a name and link it with one of the records mentioned already, we can create something of a chassis register which, maybe eventually can be added to any of the chassisrecords above


197?-I This car was entered twice by Bill Alsup, thus likely the same chassis. Given the fact that Alsup had some connections with Penske (drover for Penske in later years) this M16 may well be any of the ex-Penske cars M16C-4 , perhaps the 1977 Theodore entry of Reggazoni Yes
1979 #41 Bill Alsup DNQ
1980 #47 Phil Caliva DNQ
Caliva also DNQ a McLaren-Chevy in 1981, also using the #49. Perhaps the same car? Yes




197?-II This is the Jerry Karl modified, Chevy powered wingcar he qualified and raced in both ’80 and ’81. There is a chance that this is the 1974-I chassis. M16C-2
1980 #38 Jerry Karl 28/21
1981 #38 Jerry Karl 15/15




197?-III This is the Jerry Karl modified, Chevy powered M16, possibly also modified int a wingcar and entered as a backup in both ’80 and ’81. Also here there is a chance that this is the 1974-I chassis. M16C/D-6
1980 #39 Jerry Karl (backup)
1981 #39 Jerry Karl (backup)




Entering the zone of the real McMess: Possible M16’s (or Rascar & Kingfish clones?)


Talk about a real mess: This one.
The Fox Bible and the ’73 Yearbook list 2 `missed the show` entries for Team Penske, one that did not arrive, one was crashed by Al Loquasto.
Now we know that Penske had M16’s since 1971 and had sold off his 1971 car already. But would these two entries have been anything else but M16’s? Not likely. Nevertheless I haven’t seen pictures of the #86 to identify the car as an M16, but I bet it was.


1973 #68 Did not arrive. M16-4
1973 #86 Al Loquasto (wrecked) M16B-4


Now: remember that the two cars Team Penske raced in ’73 vanished from the scene and in ‘74 two new ’73 built cars appeared. This means that this #86 can be 1 of 4(!) candidates:
1972-III, 1972-IV, 1973-V or 1973-VI.




Finally, within the `missed the show` pages of the several yearbooks I spotted the following cars which looked very much like M16’s and may well have been such. Regrettably I couldn’t find a name of the chassis for these entries


1978 #87 Jerry Karl (backup) M16-1
Given the fact that in the following two years Karl owned two modified McLaren-Chevy’s, this may well have been the second one in addition to the 1974-I he also owned.


1979 #20 John Martin (DNQ) This list was prepared around Mclaren records of the movement of cars to the 1st private owners after McLaren & Penske. Walther plays abig part here as he purchased at least 5 cars. What do you think?????

* In case anyone's wondering, I used Word revision marking, Excel and Word's advanced find and replace features. And much head-scratching! Excel lost a few lines for no apparant reason so I had to do it again.

[Duncan Fox]

Allen ,a Very big thankyou, I tied myself up in knots yesterday and finally posted it in utter frustration. It was supposed to be highlighted in red . Ill figure it out eventually! I dont believe it to be 100% but its pretty close .The 72 winner is a problem as both the Indy museum and the folks at Penske's claim to have the winner. I have posted it as I see it at this point. More Later.

[Henri Greuter]

Allen and Duncan,

Thanks a lot for updating this list!
I ws in the USA the past month but only able to read atlas, not to enter and chat! Thus that's why my reply and thanks are delayed.

For the interested: M16B-2, Revson's car in 1972 is almost finished and it looks absolutely wonderful. Regrettably I am not allowed to tell where I saw the car but take my word for it. Hopefully I can post an image of the car as I saw it recently.

About the '72 winner, that car is definitely in the posession of the IMS museum, much to Penske's chagrin. It is the only winning car he once owned but hasn't regained yet. According my sources, he has offered IMS museum somewhere between 5 to 10 (!) different cars to gain that M16B back so he has all his Indywinners again. The museum however turned the offer down because he couldn't offer them cars they were interested in because of an Indy history worth enough to trade in a winning car for, the only winning car of the most succesfull entrant in their history they have.
If Penske really owned the genuine '72 winner, no way he would offer that many different cars for the IMS museum in return.

On a sidenote: Penske also recently acquired the Tom Sneva driven M24 of 1977: the first ever car to qualify at over 200 MPH, thus yet another milestone car in IMS history.

Henri Greuter

[Allen Brown]

I've started on my 1971-1978 USAC research project now and I'm trying to understand not just the Indy 500 appearances of all these cars but also all their other USAC appearances.

I've quickly reached an issue with John Martin's car (or cars). He drives the ex-Revson M16B/2 (Henri's 1972-I) in 1973, 1974 and 1975 at which point it vanishes. However, the ex-Johncock/McCluskey M16B/3 is also said to be ex-Martin when it appears in 1978. I think this is an error in Hungness and I think M16B/3 actually disappears after McCluskey in 1974. More of M16B/3 later.

So - if Martin never had M16B/3 - the ex-Martin McLaren that Danny Jones and Roy Dickinson acquired and were rebuilding it for the 1977 Indy 500 (see the 1977 Hungness Yearbook p206) must surely be M16B/2, not M16B/3.

This opens up a new possibility. The other McCluskey McLaren M16 (M16/2) went to Gehlhausen for 1976. Maybe both of McCluskey's McLarens went to Gehlhausen? If they did, that explains how he had a pair of cars (#19 and #91) in 1976. - Gehlhausen's other McLaren-ish car was a 1972 Kingfish

Henri, Duncan - what do you think?

Allen

Edited by Allen Brown, 06 February 2016 - 15:47.

[aaron]

Henri, is it possible to contact me please about the McLaren M16B-2. alewis@rovercoaches.coma.au. Regards, AARON.

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by aaron
Henri, is it possible to contact me please about the McLaren M16B-2. alewis@rovercoaches.coma.au. Regards, AARON.

AARON,

check your PM, I'll be in touch later on with the knowledge I have but have to look it all up.


henri

[aaron]

Could Gerr contact me about M16B-2 please. You are on the right track I think. Aaron

[doc540]

It's been over 5 years since I asked JR what he did with this car after Foyt's shop completed the restoration. He said at the time it was in his garage at his home in Fort Worth, TX.

[aaron]

That's his M24 Cosworth Turbo. Very different and much later car. A1

[aaron]

An update on the M16 thread. The John Martin M16B-2 ex Revson 1972 car was recently inspected by John himself. He was delighted to see the car (as well as his old Brabham BT25) and immediately described in some detail certain aspects of the car. When he bought the car it was sold to him as the Revson 1971 Pole car ie M16-2 by Lindsay Hopkins. However the same year another buyer bought the second Hopkins car and it too was described as the Revson pole car by Roger McClusky. That car is I think owned by Don Devine and as far as I know no one disputes its credentials. It has certainly been presented and accepted as the Revson 1971 pole car for decades. It seems more likely now that John actually bought the Johncock M16B-3 which seems to disappear at that time. John and others were quite specific about how the tub was binned and the dash panel etc. transferred from the wreck to the rebuilt car. Without doubt Martin continued to race after the crash and rebuild of 1975 and that car was even driven by him as late as 1981 as #57 where he DNQ'd. That body work is still with the car by the way and he confirms that it was indeed the same car he had run since 1973.

One car that seems to have caused difficulty is the Donohue M16-1 yet it is quite clear in 4 books (Unfair Advantage, the Penske book, Nye's book and Phil Kerr's new book) what happened. After the Indy 1971 crash the Penske/Donohue car was sent back to the Mclaren factory and rebuilt. It then appeared at Pocono and won. Many people seem to consider that this car became M16-4, a car which is listed as having never shown at the speedway. The car later went to Mahler and then Loquasto according to the records and therefore it seems that the Frosty Root Beer #86 that ran for some years was in fact the repaired Donohue car, front row in 1971, winner at Pocono that year. It is even entered one year after leaving the Penske team under the Sunoco banner. John Mahler could clear this one up in an instant if anyone has his contact.

I would like to think that this explanation helps clear up some doubt about these particular chassis although many of the team mechanics and drivers of the day are still around and might have another explanation.

The M16C cars held their own mysteries not least of which is the Revson 1973 car (M16C-2) which was badly damaged at Indy that year, including being dropped on the pit wall during the removal from the track. By 1973 teams were bringing spare cars as back-up and I am reliably told that the Revson pole car at the other 500 mile races that year was in fact a new factory tub. That car continued to race for many years, finally in ground effect Chev engined configuraion by Gerry Karl.

While I have gone to the source on much of this, talking to many people involved at the time I again stress that this information is not infallible.

What this all means in effect is that M16-1 had a continuous history from Donohue through to Loquasto and there was no M16-4.

M16B-2 utilised M16B-3 to continue racing in the day so M16-3 ceased to exist.

M16C-2 continued as a new spare car after the Indy write-off. ie the original car had one race and then a new car using that chassis number got pole twice more that year etc.

That is effectively three cars that no longer exist in their own right which explains, in typical race car fashion, why the research draws a blank at some point with some chassis. This is a fact of life, some race cars no longer exist!

If this information is used on the histories previously shown here many things become much clearer and simpler.

Aaron.

[aaron]

Another correction which I missed in a much earlier thread from Duncan. The M16A-4 was a late delivery, not until 1972, which helps explain a lot. When delivered it would have been already in M16B configuration and therefore the previous lineage detailed through Loquasto is correct. Aaron

[KGB911]

Gerr wrote

Henri, About the Jerry Sneva M16B of 1978. Chuck Haines sent me some info when he was selling M16B-02, about 1991. The car was last raced by Cliff Hucul in 1981 (at Michigan,twice and at Milwaukee ) with the number 57 for Metro Racing.
The car is/was red with "Cliff Hucul" on the sides of the windscreen and "Owner G.Jules Bickel, Jack Engelhardt" on the engine cover. The car was also at Indy in '81 for John Martin as #57.

In the photos you can see two USAC serial/registration labels. One is "0030", the other is "0357".
I think the first two digits represent the year and the second pair the car number. "00" being 1978 and "03" being 1981. If so the car was the Jerry Sneva #30 of 1978. It is also missing the hip-mounted rads.

Is this the same M16B-02 that you saw, awaiting restoration ?


Gerr,

I saw the car in January 1999 and it was totally in pieces at that time, to the bare naked aluminum. I am not permitted by the owner to tell where I saw it. He mentioned to me it was an ex-Revson car but other than that the history was not secure. In fact, he had the car but his interest was in other (sports)cars and man I couldn't believe the other cars I saw that day.
In the one pic of the '81 #57 in the '81 Hungness the car appears to be very standard M16C/D again.

Thanks for your info!


to theunions,

I have no idea if Salt still has the tub. He's not on my list of people I'm familiar with, let alone on speaking or other kind of communicating terms.
Maybe this is the wrong forum to straighten this all out and do we need to go to an Indy specialized forum for that?

Henri





Henri

Hey Guy's: I have been looking for this car for awhile now and just ran across this forum. The USAC registered #30 driven by Jerry Sneva in 78 and DNQ by Dana Carter in 79 belonged to my father Fred Ruth. It was resurrected from a basket case in late 77 early 78 by my father, brother Larry and Don Brown "The Prince of Darkness". The radiator side pods were a beautiful Brown creation and the attention to detail by Indy rookies Fred and Larry was incredible. They failed to make the 79 Indy 500 field because they wore out there motors getting Carter through is Rookie Tests. When it came to qualify the stuff was flat wore out!
I would sure like to find this car for Dad and restore it to it's glory. Dad is 80 now and still going strong and doing the Hot Rod deal. Anyone know who has the car???
Dan Ruth
I cant get the image transfer to work, any ideas?

[arttidesco]

Posted in memory of Ed Arnaudin who passed away on April 3rd on behalf of his son Steve, a couple of M16's from 1975.



Johnny Rutherford



Salt Walter



Does any one know who the Union Jack waving sponsor of Lloyd Rubys car was ?

I would have guessed these were all M24s 'til I saw this thread

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

[Tim Murray]

Lloyd Ruby's sponsor was the Allied Polymer Group, a UK company which sponsored a large number of cars and championships at the time.

[arttidesco]

Lloyd Ruby's sponsor was the Allied Polymer Group, a UK company which sponsored a large number of cars and championships at the time.

Thanks Tim same APG who also sponsored a private #208 Brabham BT44 of Lella Lombardi ?

[Tim Murray]

The very same - the car wearing #208 in honour of another of its sponsors, Radio Luxembourg.

[arttidesco]

I have a randomly clear memory of a photo of that Brabham published in Autosport back in the day Tim

[gavinevitt]

the M16 Chev V8 that was in New Zealand for a few years.









An Australian owned M16 in Revson 1972 colours at the McLaren Festival Hampton Downs NZ 2010.

[gbl]

Salt Walter

Should be Bob Harkey with the gold helmet

[arttidesco]

Should be Bob Harkey with the gold helmet

Thanks gbl

[Henri Greuter]

Well, at long last I can add something to this thread I started myself!
Nothing new however: but confirmation after seeing approval.


I have had the opportunity to see the 1974 Rutherford winner from very nearby, including a view in the cockpit where I saw the chassis plate.

Now I am absolutely digibete if it comes to computers and software packages so i even won't bother to try to post the photographic approval. But if anyboody oth here who reds this wants to post it for me instead: pm me an email address and I will forward you the picture so you can put it in.

The chassis plate on Rutherford's 1974 winner reads: M 16C 5

Confirming some of the date filled in in previous posts already.


Thanks


Regards,

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 20 July 2011 - 11:30.

[arttidesco]

Posted on behalf of Henri Greuter

[arttidesco]

Further message from Henri

"On the site where I saw the McLaren there was a collection of Carousel1 Indycar models as well, including the one of the 1974 winner.
Inspired by what I see being done in a German model car magazine, where they make pictures of scale modes being put on an or the actual car, I took out the Carousel1 1974 winner and put it on the car for some pictures, I include one of them."

[grocons]

Couldn't resist posting this photo of Johnny Rutherford and myself sitting on his Indy winning McLaren three weeks ago at the Goodwood Festival of Speed.

Edited by grocons, 21 July 2011 - 21:56.

[Emery0323]

Here's an interesting addition to the RM Auction Catalogue for the Monterey Weekend this year:

http://rmauctions.co...?lot_id=1060704

Lot 241
1974 McLaren M16C Indianapolis
$1,250,000 - $1,750,000

Chassis no. M16C-5

[xj13v12]

That's an impressive price estimate. OK it's an Indy winner, let's see.
I retain M16C-2 and will discuss sensible offers. M16B-2 recently sold into the ROFGO collection.

[Henri Greuter]

Long time ago there was some interesting to tel about M16s.

 

But I was notified about the following.

Maybe some of you already knew it,.

 

But the 1975 built McLaren M16E-2, eventually the 1976 Indy winner no longer resides in the USA anymore.

It appears as if is located in South Korea, in the Samsung Museum of Transportation.

The link below contans a picture of the car as it was exposed in 2009, no further news )yet' if it is relocated by now but that is the last we know for this car.

 

I guess that a number of people with an interest for Indy rather wished this car, a winner, still being in the USA .....

 

 

http://www.lifeinkor...fm?Filename=stm

 

 

Henri

[Henri Greuter]

Long time ago there was some interesting to tel about M16s.

 

But I was notified about the following.

Maybe some of you already knew it,.

 

But the 1975 built McLaren M16E-2, eventually the 1976 Indy winner no longer resides in the USA anymore.

It appears as if is located in South Korea, in the Samsung Museum of Transportation.

The link below contans a picture of the car as it was exposed in 2009, no further news )yet' if it is relocated by now but that is the last we know for this car.

 

I guess that a number of people with an interest for Indy rather wished this car, a winner, still being in the USA .....

 

 

http://www.lifeinkor...fm?Filename=stm

 

 

 

BTW the 1974 winner, M16C-5 inspiration for the Alonos #29 color scheme appears to at least have been back at indy in the Museum as well.

 

 

Henri