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Australian Auto-Sport Alliance reaction?


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#201 Ian G

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 01:20

Similar thought to my own Lee,a lot of unhappy campers out there,i can only talk from a NSW perspective but a lot of trouble brewing in the Rally community with the costs perspective.

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#202 cheapracer

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 19:42

In the UK, the MotorSports Association (MSA) imply they control all motorsport.


Thanks for taking the time to write that post for me RS2000.

Yeah, sounds pretty much like CAMS all over sorry to say but I'll continue to live in a dream world where the bulk of the club level licence and entrants that make up CAMS have a democratic right to be treated as the majority they are ..... it's only a dream though.

I was fairly active in the 80's trying to steer an alternate to Group G and not go to Group A/PRC but CAMS had already decided regardless and against the majority of competitors who defeated themselves with apathy and worries about their individual cars and themselves rather than as a union.


Similar thought to my own Lee,a lot of unhappy campers out there, I can only talk from a NSW perspective but a lot of trouble brewing in the Rally community with the costs perspective.


Which costs specifically? Over the last year I have tried to offer some future solutions but I can't get an answer from any one (AMSAG, various clubs, individuals who count) although Peter Whitten kindly directed me to CAMS!

Probably think I'm a nutter, don't blame them ;)

Edited by cheapracer, 03 September 2011 - 19:45.


#203 Ian G

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 23:38

Which costs specifically? Over the last year I have tried to offer some future solutions but I can't get an answer from any one (AMSAG, various clubs, individuals who count) although Peter Whitten kindly directed me to CAMS!


Everything Cheap,the cost of getting a car to a rally and competing,i try to stay out of it but visit the Brindabella Forums regulary to stay(try) in touch.

Brindabella Forums.

#204 cheapracer

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 09:32

Everything Cheap,the cost of getting a car to a rally and competing, i try to stay out of it but visit the Brindabella Forums regulary to stay(try) in touch.

Brindabella Forums.


I wonder over there occasionally and have a read as I know a few of them from having an automotive business for 2 years in Fyshwick ACT.

I don't like what I see happening such as the possible coming 'SUV' class which further caters for manufacturers and raises the cost and furthers the distance from "the common man" but I guess that's for another thread.


#205 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 21:31

There's an informative thread in the Brindabella forums about getting through scrutineering...

Another eye-opener about CAMS!

#206 DanTra2858

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 21:36

To a degree modern rules etc have to be compied with. Belts, driving apparel. extingushers, roll over protection and even noise have to be complied with. Or the events do not happen as the insurers will not insure and the 'authorities' will close you down.
Historic cars too can be a bloody site more dangerous than modern.
Though on the other hand CAMS etc bowing to all the bullshit from insurers [though a lot is self inflicted] about apparel and technical specs are also rubbish.
Motorsport is pricing itself out of reach of competitors, and has done for 20 years. Go to any club race meeting and look at the demographic of the drivers, it is scarey. More old grey headed farts like me than the young blokes. Sprints and hillclimbs thank god are better. But that is all most can afford to do.And generally for not very long. Peer group pressure on cars has also got a fair bit to do with that though. Though that is nothing new, some of the young blokes have always burnt out the budget on the shiniest bits !!
My own very limited comeback doing sprints and hillclimbs costs me more now than racing did in 2000 when I stopped racing.
And Speedway is the same. Very sick at grass roots level as the competitors are paying far too much.


Like what you are saying Lee, the question that no one seems to answer is what part of the Entry Fee for a Meeting be it a Race, Sprint, Hillclimb or Rally is the higest component of the price.

I was talking to Barry Campbell who races a Bowell Mk 7 in historics & he was quoting to me costs that just seemed unbelivable to the position that he can not afford to race for the rest of the year and his Budget for next year is looking to afford a meeting about every 3 months, this is just Sad.

What is the average cost of Entry Fee to Race Meetings, Sprints, Hillclimbs at Club level these days let alone the costs of Open Meetings.

Then add your Personal Expences for the Day/Weekend to say do 4/5 runs at a Hill Climb or a couple of 5 lap races for the day, no wonder the likes of Barry and other Compeditors are struggling to make the Start Line.

#207 GMACKIE

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 22:01

The Vintage Sports Car Club of Australia [founded 1944] ran a very successful, relaxed sprint [drag race] meeting at Cootamundra on Saturday..........entry fee - $80. The VSCCA is NOT affiliated with CAMS.

Edited by GMACKIE, 04 September 2011 - 22:13.


#208 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 23:09

Like what you are saying Lee, the question that no one seems to answer is what part of the Entry Fee for a Meeting be it a Race, Sprint, Hillclimb or Rally is the higest component of the price.

I was talking to Barry Campbell who races a Bowell Mk 7 in historics & he was quoting to me costs that just seemed unbelivable to the position that he can not afford to race for the rest of the year and his Budget for next year is looking to afford a meeting about every 3 months, this is just Sad.

What is the average cost of Entry Fee to Race Meetings, Sprints, Hillclimbs at Club level these days let alone the costs of Open Meetings.

Then add your Personal Expences for the Day/Weekend to say do 4/5 runs at a Hill Climb or a couple of 5 lap races for the day, no wonder the likes of Barry and other Compeditors are struggling to make the Start Line.

To be fair a lot of my expenses are running costs. To be competitive [and safe] tyres are oh so dear. And since I am doing 'interesting' events so is some of the travel costs. A 2 day hillclimb at My Gambier is a $1000 exercise,fuel, accomodation plus wear and rear on the car and tyres. Far too dear but enjoyable.
But when I first startd doing this sort of stuff in the 70s an entry was $10 and a liscence was part of your car club subscription. Now subs include a fair wack to CAMS. plus a basic liscence[L2S] is $103.
And speeway has done the same. When I started playing with classic speedway in the early 90s there was no cost, then a cheap liscence came in, that has gone to over a $100 now. And we do not race. And to add injury either your crew has to have a mechanics licence or you can be drilled for quite a large fee to get your crew/ friends in the pits wih you.And some tracks are trying to charge through the gate also. Since classics do not get any prizemoney generally they do not pay. But I have. The costs there are why I am no longer doing it, and circuit is a reaquired first love anyway.
And with both CAMS and NASR the actual benefits paid are in real terms less than 15 years ago. And quite hard to claim, particularly for the self employed as you have to prove your income when injured.Which cost me about 3 weeks of income, and most of the medical expenses were from Medicare anyway.
Anybody self employed be VERY wary about this, it is a lousy scenario. Which has bankrupted small business operators.

#209 DanTra2858

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 05:04

Just wondering how much added $ cost there will be to the compeditor with the newly preposed Carbon Tax or will it not have an affect on Motor Sport at all, just wondering.

#210 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:26

At long last CAMS is considering adopting HTP papers as an alternative to C of Ds, either in full as per FIA or modified for example as in issuing HTPs only to cars built in period.

I sincerely hope they adopt HTPs in full, it may not rejuvenate historic racing but something has to be done, witness the pathetic entries for some groups at Wakefield this month.


#211 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:17

Okay, Mick, I'll bite...

What's an "HTP"?

#212 Richard Worboys

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:35

Okay, Mick, I'll bite...

What's an "HTP"?

Historical Technical Passport

#213 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 03:11

Ray the significance is that the car has to comply with the period spec of that make not of that individual car. Example being the Lotus 27 in Melbourne that ran here with a 1500 but under FIA rules can apply for HTP papers as a Formula Junior. Of course it does not mean to say organisers have to accept it but with diminishing number in some categories the pressure will be on. That Lotus 27 has been rebuilt to FJ spec so bring on the day when it can race here before someone snaps it up from overseas.

Edited by Andrew Fellowes, 21 February 2013 - 03:12.


#214 GMACKIE

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 04:50

I will not be running my '67 Mako F.Vee 1200 in historic races, as it doesn't have a C of D.......and I will NOT be handing CAMS nigh-on $1000 for a bit of paper.

As there are quite a few Vee drivers that feel as I do, the AASA & 2nd GEAR events are quite popular. Plenty of 'bang-for-your-buck'.

#215 Dick Willis

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 05:17

Greg, the price of a C of D has come down substantially for 2013.

#216 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:08

"Nigh on $1000"? Last I heard it was about $650, but you still had to do all the work to make it happen yourself...

So it's been going up substantially over the last ten years, it seems.

But it might be better than having a string of Elfin 600 Formula Fords fitted with TC4Vs because Glynn Scott had one!

#217 Dick Willis

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:16

This is the danger with the FIA system FIA is trying to get CAMS to adopt, the mind boggles at the scenarios such as you have just depicted with loads of "facsimilies" being approved

#218 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 00:41

I keep hearing that CAMS is refusing log books for cars to race as they were raced in period. It seems tyhey have their own agenda to what they feel is right.
Also often cars were raced in several differnt specs, and often classes. picking a period can be a problem, for both the owner and CAMS.
I do know there is a lot of historics out there that really are not. Grandpas axe,, or worse!
Then ofcourse NC, an historic category that is not historic!! Entertaining and fun but not cars that were ever raced in that spec at all. I believe SC is similar too.

#219 stuartbrs

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:02

CAMS do seem to go out of their way to make things difficult for us.

"Cut your nose off to spite your face" is the phrase that springs to mind....

Having said that, a fair whack is down to insurance fees? Or am I very much mistaken..?

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#220 275 GTB-4

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:16

The Vintage Sports Car Club of Australia [founded 1944] ran a very successful, relaxed sprint [drag race] meeting at Cootamundra on Saturday..........entry fee - $80. The VSCCA is NOT affiliated with CAMS.


Was that a special pensioner rate Greg? :cat:

#221 275 GTB-4

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:22

I keep hearing that CAMS is refusing log books for cars to race as they were raced in period. It seems tyhey have their own agenda to what they feel is right.
Also often cars were raced in several differnt specs, and often classes. picking a period can be a problem, for both the owner and CAMS.
I do know there is a lot of historics out there that really are not. Grandpas axe,, or worse!
Then ofcourse NC, an historic category that is not historic!! Entertaining and fun but not cars that were ever raced in that spec at all. I believe SC is similar too.


it was normal and evolutionary for cars to undergo change and development (IN THE PERIOD), but, no matter how much evidence/proof you show that Car X, raced with a particular configuration and livery, in a particular period, if its not what CAMS wants to see....guess what? :rolleyes:

#222 GMACKIE

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:32

Was that a special pensioner rate Greg? :cat:

Sure, Mick.....you are illegible. :wave:


#223 275 GTB-4

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:43

Ohhhh?? I will work on my typing skills :blush:

#224 giffo

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:47

Regardless of what individuals may think the fact that the CHC is discussing if it will adopt the FIA HTP system in either part or fully sometime in the near future is a step forward. If you read the HTP requirements you can see issues with it just as with the CoD system for better or worse depending on what your point of view is. The discussion paper put out makes good reading and one can clearly see the difficulties the CHC face in making amendments to the current rule system.

I think it will only really affect a small percentage of vehicles anyway to those vehicles already with HTP’s here or coming into the country and those with local cars here who want to run internationally (Europe mostly). My understanding is a HTP requires maintenance or certification checking every 5 years which has a cost and makes certain those cars continue to comply unlike the current CoD’s.

I have no affiliation with the CHC but do own a FIA papered car that this decision will affect so I have a keen interest.

#225 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:45

CAMS do seem to go out of their way to make things difficult for us.

"Cut your nose off to spite your face" is the phrase that springs to mind....

Having said that, a fair whack is down to insurance fees? Or am I very much mistaken..?

No insurance issues with CODs, Entrys yes ofcourse.

#226 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:47

it was normal and evolutionary for cars to undergo change and development (IN THE PERIOD), but, no matter how much evidence/proof you show that Car X, raced with a particular configuration and livery, in a particular period, if its not what CAMS wants to see....guess what? :rolleyes:

That is the issue, I seem to remember Paul Hamilton in particular with a legitimate beef about this. Others too, just on this forum!

#227 Ericoz

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 22:56

At long last CAMS is considering adopting HTP papers as an alternative to C of Ds, either in full as per FIA or modified for example as in issuing HTPs only to cars built in period.

I sincerely hope they adopt HTPs in full, it may not rejuvenate historic racing but something has to be done, witness the pathetic entries for some groups at Wakefield this month.

Those of you who think the HTP is God's gift to historic motor racing better do some research. Like anything that tries to set rules to govern something, no one will be happy with the complete thing. It seems that one of the main prickly issues is the allowing of replicas and facsimiles and this is such a simple fix but both the FIA and CAMS are too gutless to set definitions of them. Replicas are exact copies built by the original builder or under his or her supervision, so in real life there are only a handful of genuine replicas, all others are facsimiles. If you Google for the Historic Technical Regulations be prepared for a long scary read, at the moment if you have a minor bingle like taking a corner off, you take it to you fabricator and get it repaired just in time to get to the next meeting but if the car has an HTP it wont be that simple. You may have to supply an engineering report on the repairs and certificates for all the materials used, not too difficult in the USA and Europe where that is the norm but here it could be very time consuming and very expensive. There are are huge amount of good reasons for having an HTP but just do a little research before you decide that we should go that way. I remember reading that there was once three cars sitting on the first three spots on the grid of a historic race and all three had identical HTP's!! They all were the same car! Same chassis number, same engine number but the most important part was that the FIA legitimized all three by giving them a HTP. Would we be prepared to accept this? I'm not a great historic racing freak but I think that a great amount of debate should take place before any decision is made, otherwise we will be screaming to get rid of the FIA as well as CAMS!

#228 BMH Comic

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 00:51

Those of you who think the HTP is God's gift to historic motor racing better do some research. Like anything that tries to set rules to govern something, no one will be happy with the complete thing. It seems that one of the main prickly issues is the allowing of replicas and facsimiles ………………………………………….., otherwise we will be screaming to get rid of the FIA as well as CAMS!

Surely nobody thinks that the HTP is a solution to low numbers in our sport?? How could they? We would be lucky to get a dozen more cars.

I think a lot who profess to know what will happen in the future are just living a dream.
We already have HTP’s and replicas here; the only substantial difference is that if HTPs were approved to race, they could run under Australian ownership. I think it’s unfair that a HTP car owned offshore can come here as an invited car and race at a premier event, but one that was owned by an Australian and resident here could/may not. It’s an anomaly and it should be fixed. How it is fixed is the problem. Encouraging the owner to get a CofD is ok but has shown to not be viable in the long term. Approval of HTP’s for Australians is the answer, but the question is just how low do we want to go in admitting them. I doubt many will have a problem with HTP cars with traceable linage and near enough specifications, what won’t be tolerated is replicas and cars running in a form that wasn’t how they competed in period.
It’s a no brainer in my opinion, retain/adopt the rule that says “no log book no race’. Issue HTP’s like confetti to anyone that wants to pay for them, (take their money) replicas whatever, just don’t let them compete unless they have a log book, and to earn a log book you must comply with the regulations for the country in which they compete. If it doesn’t have a traceable lineage, isn’t correct by the “how it was, is how it shall be” rule, otherwise it won’t be racing. If they want to race in Malaysia or England or wherever, then fine, they can knock themselves out doing so. It’s their money, if they want to race in Australia they can play on our level playing field.

In other words don’t give them a Historic log book, It may be feasible to give them a contemporary log book, but then they should comply with the contemporary regulations, why should a modern car with cheater modifications be allowed the dispensations for a historic car?

It’s not that we don’t have enough cars here, its that we cannot get them out of the sheds and museums. If you cannot get hold of one here and have to go to England to buy one, then buy one from England that has Australian history and bring it home. See what that will cost you.
IM HAPPY TO SUPPORT AND ENCOURAGE AUSTRALIAN MOTOR RACING HERITAGE, NOT THAT OF ANY OTHER COUNTRY THANKYOU.



#229 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 December 2019 - 11:18

There has been further movement by the CAMS to work against competitors using the AASA...

Some time ago the Off-Road Racers basically withdrew from CAMS' oversight. Their national championship series organisers agreed that they needed to run under AASA and so eventually the clubs all did the same and CAMS were totally on the outer with them.

Now the CAMS has officially told them that they are not welcome to come back. Never. Ever.

Doesn't that sound like a breach of the Trade Practices Act?

This was the cornerstone of the legal action Bob Jane took against them and just stopped short of destroying them.

And does this mean they'll now start looking at people competing in AASA events and ban them from CAMS events?

#230 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 04:30

It seems the Confederation Against Motor Sport has had a change of name...

 

Now called Motorsport Australia, they apparently have some nifty new 'uniform' wear for officials.

 

Except that the officials have to pay for it. Or not be officials.



#231 Lurch

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 05:28

At least turn-around times for licence renewals have been reduced to less then a week!

Ask Gordon Dobie what he thinks of CAMS...



#232 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 February 2020 - 08:51

It seems the Confederation Against Motor Sport has had a change of name...

Now called Motorsport Australia, they apparently have some nifty new 'uniform' wear for officials.

Except that the officials have to pay for it. Or not be officials.

MA to be short,, except that Motorcycling Australia has had that tag for some time. And MA for bikes promotes motorsport as well. Confusing I suspect for the unwary.
And interestingly my licence says CAMS, as does the log books I have.
Will we be charged a fee to update them,? probably.