Jump to content


Photo

Rallycross


  • Please log in to reply
81 replies to this topic

#1 Barry Lake

Barry Lake
  • Member

  • 2,169 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 31 October 2003 - 13:25

Can anyone give me an accurate picture of when and how rallycross began in Europe?

Advertisement

#2 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,742 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 31 October 2003 - 13:45

Rallycross was "entirely a product of television" (Georgano p36). It was devised in the wake of the cancellation of the 1967 RAC Rally, plans having been laid to televise a special stage - despite the cancellation of the rally, competitors were invited to run the stage as a time trial (many did) and the positive reaction from viewers led to Robert Reid, Barrie Gill and others devising Rallycross as a new variant of the sport. Circuits were established at Lydden Hill and Croft (and briefly at Cadwell Park) and TV coverage was provided by the BBC.

Not sure of the exact date of the first event, but from memory I'd guess January 1968 or maybe Christmas 1967.

#3 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,698 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 31 October 2003 - 13:48

From memory, written during my lunch break.

Way back when, there was a foot and mouth epidemic and the RAC Rally was cancelled. As the circus had arrived in Britain and the BBC had allocated a slot someone decided to hold an event in one of the Brands Hatch car parks, effectively a rally stage. the weather co-operated and either snow or rain (=mud) added to the fun. It made good television so the seed was planted. (As one of the competitors was Eric Carlsson's SAAB this must have been in the early sixties.)

About 1966 or 67, Rallycross at Lydden Hill developed. The circuit was intended to reflect the skills required of a rally driver at that time, i.e. tarmac, gravel and a tarmac hill covered with chalk to simulate snow. This was televised and initially the cars were standard?, normal? - ah got it - conventional rally cars such as Paddy Hopkirk in a Mini Cooper S. A meeting would comprise a series of short races with four cars in each. It made good Saturday afternoon television as an alternative for the wrestling fans. Cigarette sponsorship in the form a Players No 6 Championship arrived.

And things grew from there - cars got more specialist and the Continentals started coming until we have rallycross as we know it today.

Ten-tenths have a rallycross forum that could tell you more.

#4 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 6,064 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 31 October 2003 - 13:56

In those early days it made very good winter television at a time when next to no motorsport was being shown at all .

It was deep mud and snow (those were the days when we had snow !) and a vast variety of different cars - anyone remember the velvetex coated Lotus Europa rallycross car ! - and it could win - and this sort of fast unfolding mad action - mainly at Lydden Hill suited Murray Walker at the peak of his powers !

I wish we could have it back to run from October to Febuary - it was then worth watching .

#5 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,883 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 31 October 2003 - 14:59

Oh, the flocking Europa! Brings back memories! Other (successfull) oddities were the de Rooy (?) brothers in their BDA powered 4WD Dafs and the works assisted 4WD Capris that Roger Clark and IIRC his brother Stan drove. Lots of ultra lightweight Minis of course. And later on there was John Taylor on the Haynes of Maidstone entered works Escort.

That was before it all got a bit silly with young Wurz's dad in the Audi, and that Finnish guy in a Porsche, both with about a million bhp.

#6 2F-001

2F-001
  • Member

  • 4,237 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 31 October 2003 - 15:29

Oh gosh! I'd forgotten the furry Europa! (There is a Lotus Seven Club member here in SE England with a furry nosecone on his Caterham - longer hair than the velvetex stuff, almost get a comb through it: absolutely barking mad...)

Roger and Stan Clark were local guys (I still lived in Leicester then) ... Jan and Harry de Rooy's DAFs! Oh the memories! Rod 'Spinner' Chapman, Tony Drummond, Barry Lee, Jumping Jeff Wiliamson, Peter Harper (Rootes Group's ace Imp driver, who died very recently), Keith Ripp (now the Ripspeed accessories magnate)...

Prior to the Audi, didn't Franz Wurz run a Stratos? And maybe Andy Benza did too.

There was certainly a big revival with the advent of high-tech 'supercars'. Things were already fairly specialist, with BDA-engined rear wheel drive Fiestas and the Gartrac G3 (rear-wheel drive rally car technology in a Escort Mk3 FWD shopping trolley) when Martin Schanche ditched his outrageous Zakspeed Group 2 based Escort, in favour of the ''X-Trac''. I remember this in its first season in UK domestic Rallycross - a very descreet looking Escort 3 shell with just subtle arch cappings and a tiny boot lid spoiler. But of course had, what, 500bhp?? and the sophisticated XTrac all wheel drive with adjustable diffs and stuff, seemingly controlled by a mass of clever hydraulics (although to be honest, close up I wasn't too sure what I was looking at!). That pretty-much blew the upper level of the sport apart, as little else could compete. So the floodgates opened and we saw some really outrageous machinery.

The Finn with the trillion horsepower 4WD drive Porsche would have been Matti Alimaki?... I think it was he who had run a Lancia S4 as well. The Scandinavians were very fond of their big 911s though.

Other trends were for the Ford RS200 Evolutions (like ''Group B-and-a-half'') for Schanche, Mark Lovell, Trevor Hopkins?? (no, I think I'm confusing him with someone else).

Then Will Gollop with a Metro 6R4 Bi-turbo.

The there was Kenneth Hanssen and Jean-Luc Pallier with a pair of decidely non-stock Citroëns...

Sorry I don't have the dates to hand... I'm just rambling over my late lunch and dropping crumbs into the keyboard...

#7 Frank de Jong

Frank de Jong
  • Member

  • 1,830 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 31 October 2003 - 15:45

The Netherlands were for once quick to react and got their own televised series soon after the UK.
Apart from the cars mentioned above, VW Beetles got some fame as well.
From sweden we had some Saab's and Blomqvist of course.
I've been to al rallycross meeting once; the atmosphere was a lot more relaxed than on the track at Zandvoort, I must say.

#8 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 6,064 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 31 October 2003 - 20:06

We all look back on it with fond memories, it was live about 3 or 4 times an afternoon on a Saturday on BBC Grandstand - usually from Lydden Hill . The GP season was over (not that many races were televised in those days ) Winter afternoons in front of the fire and some very entertaining mud-plugging from real characters and diverse and innovative competitive cars ............ so why isn't it still on ?

Just what do we have to watch from now to next Febuary ... not much at all . At one time we even used to get live coverage of the pre- 1904 London to Brighton Run , which I think is on this Sunday ?

Was it Paul Kerridge in the Europa ?

#9 Rainer Nyberg

Rainer Nyberg
  • Member

  • 1,768 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 01 November 2003 - 04:30

Sweden took on Rallycross during 1971.

Early popular cars were Saab's and VW Beetle's. With turbo-charging these stayed competitive until the end of the decade. It was really a place for special, with most cars beeing self-built specials. The Beetle's with turbo engines and a few of them with 4WD systems.

Mainly Porsche's took over for a period until the 4WD quattro became the thing to have. Norwegian Martin Schanche fought off the 4WD cars with his RWD Zakspeed powered MkII Escort for many years with his flamboyant style...

Most Swedish rallystars tried their hands on Rallycross during the 1970s. Stig Blomqvist, Per Eklund and Björn Waldegård et al...

#10 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 6,064 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 01 November 2003 - 09:27

For me at least it is 4WD that spoilt both Rallycross and World Rallying - the cars are simply now too good , drive systems, fluid differentials , etc have made the cars unspectacular.

As every manufacturer now has a 4WD varient in their road car range - what about they all have to take off the front wheel drive pieces - then we have a field of RWD cars with enormous tail power slides in forests and on snow , struggling for any traction and a lot less grip all round and the spectacle we saw in the days of the Mk 1 &2 Escorts and all the others .

Next weekend we have the Cardiff round of the World Rally Championship - how poor this now is in comparison with the real "RAC round Britain Rally " it was 4 1/2 days non -stop visiting all corners of Britain , with ever type of weather and the stages were exclusively on the loose - as Rallying should be - literally 3 million people turned out to watch somewhere along the route for free , as a result it had high profile TV & Radio hour by hour news media coverage , people like Roger Clark really did become houshold names.

Next week we will have a bunch of silly infantile presenters bringing us pictures of cars with too much power and grip, too much servicing, repeatedly running backwards and forwards up and down the same bits of gravel tracks close to their motor homes , with no night driving, no surface ,weather, or scenery variations . Its a pale shadow of a former wonderful event that captured the nations imagination .

.........And it doesn't have to be like this. The organisers responsible ought to hang their heads in shame. I really do miss those days .

#11 Option1

Option1
  • Member

  • 14,892 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 01 November 2003 - 13:42

Or we could go back to horse and buggies.

Personally, I like the state-of-the-art that rallying has become and I don't think the driving or the cars are any less spectacular because of it. I also much prefer being able to see the cars and the associated TV coverage that has come with running daytime only. Beats the manure out of things such as "And here comes another set of 8 bright lights that will be either someone Finnish or an alien spaceship. And there go the 8 bright lights so now we'll show a picture that is made up of varying shades of black."

Sorry, but times do move on and while there are some silly rules and I agree it would be a little better if the roads weren't used more than once or twice during an event, I think the current state is, overall, an improvement on the days of yore.

As for Rallycross, I remember watching the Australian version on TV back in the 70s. It was fun and, from memory, included such tintop stars as Colin Bond and Peter Brock (I think) at times.

Neil

#12 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 6,064 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 01 November 2003 - 15:32

I don't go back far enough to remember Motor Rallying in horse & buggies.
If the rules are uncontained costs go to infinity and manufacturers pull out - Ford (despite now a totally competitive car) still have not confirmed entry for next year on cost /benefit grounds .Hyundai are gone, and all the others are very nervous.

World level motorsport is in the entertainment business and it nowadays lives or dies through television viewing figures and to get good ones you must provide something people really look forward to watching , that means it must be exciting (as motorcycling currently is ) , so the technical and sporting rules need to be framed this to give viewers , in Rallying this means variety, in ,cars, action, personalities, scenery, road surfaces, unreliability , crashes, weather, and lots of the unexpected.

True there is nothing to see in headlights going past, but this does not mean they cannot do road sections at night to get them 200 miles up the road to a different part of the country for the next morning start . The RAC used to be in London,Bristol,Wales, the midlands,Yorkshire, and Scotland all in 4 1/2 days there was no crowd trouble or roads jammed with spectators cars because it was evenly spread.

We at last have more TV coverage, but no regular times, its scattered all over the schedule from week to week to fit around soap operas often after midnight which is next to no good at all , the irony is now the product is worse than it used to be, just so that it suits the people on the spot at base camp - with a complete disregard for the customer - the viewer.

#13 Option1

Option1
  • Member

  • 14,892 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 01 November 2003 - 17:12

No great disagreement with any of that Richard.

However, I don't think the sport is particularly bereft of personalities at the moment. In fact, the drivers seem to have a lot more fun and show a lot more emotion than any of the F1 pretty boys. I also think the racing is spectacular enough.

One other thing to consider - and this is just speculation on my part - but it could well be that one of the reasons they use the more restricted areas to run a WRC round is that it means spectators can actually see the cars more than once without having to book a different hotel in a different part of the country each night. I also suspect TV much prefers being able to essentially setup in one place for the duration of the event rather than having to be a moveable feast. Same applies to the teams and organizers. And speaking of organisation, I strongly suspect that it's a lot, lot less hassle getting permits to run on one set of roads than it is to run on different roads all over the country. Take all those things into account and you have an aspect coming into play that you mentioned - containing costs. In other words, I can see some logical rationale behind the way WRC rounds have evolved to the present format.

As far as TV coverage go, here in the US it's actually improving. Generally a fixed timeslot, and seemingly increased coverage each year. Certainly, I know of at least one couple who are motocross/trials/scramble afficianado's who've become avid viewers of the WRC because of that consistency in coverage here.

Anyway, I feel like we're hijacking Barry's rallycross thread and also focussing a little too much on modern day dilemmas of the WRC, so apologies to Barry and I'll leave the last word on this to you Richard (or whoever else decides to dip their oar in) and we'll return to normal programming. :)

Neil

#14 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,512 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 01 November 2003 - 17:32

I'm a considerable fan of WRC TV coverage - with the commentary garbage turned down - the footage is often spectacular and sometimes wonderfully humbling - even if I had the skills to drive like that, I'd never have the courage etc etc. The one demeaning thing about modern rallying so far as I am concerned is that they only work half days and they sleep in the same bed/same hotel every night which borders on the pansy in contrast to the days when 36 hours continuous rallying was nothing unusual. Whatever criticisms the World Rally Championship scene may justifiably attract there's nothing wrong with the those crews' bottle! It absolutely makes modern Formula 1 drivers look like an over-rewarded bunch of nooftahs...

Ooh - nearly forgot - there was a precedent for what became rallycross in the harsh winter of 1962-63 (I think without checking) at Brands Hatch when a BBC Grandstand televised special stage was run from close to the old pavilion and clubhouse back towards the A20 entrance down the back of the grandstands? It was run in deep snow, slush, ice, mud and was pretty darned spectacular by the standards of the time with works Healey 3000s shining, as I recall... Had the Boxing Day Brands race meeting on the circuit been cancelled due to the snow??? I can't recall. Ten months later I found myself working there...funny how things work out...

DCN

#15 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 6,064 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 01 November 2003 - 17:38

Neil,

I think you have put you finger right on it , its currently being organised for the comfort and convenience of the organisers to the detriment of the spectacle.

Vast real cost savings could be made if they put their minds to it - rather than at present just paying lip service to the subject.

We have suffered in UK for the last 2 years with a change of broadcaster with such poor interviewers that the drivers refuse to take them seriously (understandably ) and tend to give monosylabic answers to their inane questions, and because Colin McRae has been out of contention , whose demeaner tends to bring us all down, we have heard more from Solberg and Panizzi - who actually seem to enjoy it ! So that has improved this year as has the championship going to the last round with 4 having a mathmatical chance .

Yes its been interesting , and I do look forward to the next event , but certainly as it comes out of our TV screens it could so easily be so much better if past lessons were learned.

#16 Geoff E

Geoff E
  • Member

  • 1,523 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 01 November 2003 - 19:22

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Had the Boxing Day Brands race meeting on the circuit been cancelled due to the snow??? I can't recall.


Possibly - the 1962/63 winter started on Boxing Day.

#17 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,698 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 01 November 2003 - 21:44

Originally posted by Doug Nye

Had the Boxing Day Brands race meeting on the circuit been cancelled due to the snow??? I can't recall.


Not sure. Around that time, Motor Sport had a January or February cover showing an Elva leading the field through Paddcok (?) bend which was white with salt.

#18 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,500 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 November 2003 - 00:58

It was the 1964 Boxing Brands that was cancelled due to bad weather, although there was snow on the track in 1962. The picture D-Type refers to was from the 1961 meeting, the Ferrari following the Elva being driven by Graham Hill. He, of course, was elsewhere at the end of 1962.

The rallycross meeting was arranged at the instigation of the BBC as the football programme had been snowed off (do I hear cheering?) The event took place in the car park. Timo Makinen won in a Healey 3000 from Paddy Hopkirk (Mini-Cooper) and Logan Morrison (MG 1100). Pat Moss (Anglia) was fourth. The event was decided on a handicap, but Makinen was fastest anyway.

Other competitors were: Sydney Allard (Allardette), Eric Carlsson(SAAB), Tiny Lewis (Sunbeam), Tony Ambrose (Mini Cooper), Alan Allard (Allardette) John Sprinzel (Vitesse), Vic Elford (Vitesse) David Siegel-Morris (Anglia), Pauline Mayman (Mini-Cooper) Peter Procer (Sunbeam), Peter Harper (Sunbeam), Henry Taylor (Cortina).

#19 Geoff E

Geoff E
  • Member

  • 1,523 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 02 November 2003 - 08:43

Originally posted by Roger Clark
The rallycross meeting was arranged at the instigation of the BBC as the football programme had been snowed off (do I hear cheering?)


Hmmm ... I would have thought that the loss of horse racing was a more likely reason. There was no wall-to-wall football in those days. "Match of the Day" only started in August 1964 and apart from the teleprinter there was not much coverage on a Saturday afternoon.

Advertisement

#20 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,500 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 November 2003 - 09:25

Originally posted by Geoff E


Hmmm ... I would have thought that the loss of horse racing was a more likely reason. There was no wall-to-wall football in those days. "Match of the Day" only started in August 1964 and apart from the teleprinter there was not much coverage on a Saturday afternoon.


Probably- but the Autosport report specifically mentioned football - and having been accused of trying to mention football in every thread, I thought I should pass it on.

#21 David Beard

David Beard
  • Member

  • 4,997 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 02 November 2003 - 10:46

Originally posted by Roger Clark


Probably- but the Autosport report specifically mentioned football - and having been accused of trying to mention football in every thread, I thought I should pass it on.


:rotfl: :rotfl:

#22 Geoff E

Geoff E
  • Member

  • 1,523 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 02 November 2003 - 10:50

Roger

I was unsure what date you were propounding - I thought perhaps you meant 1964.

This site suggests 1967/Foot and mouth/Brands as previously mentioned:- http://www.imps4ever...oss/harper.html

#23 Pete Stowe

Pete Stowe
  • Member

  • 481 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 02 November 2003 - 11:39

Originally posted by Barry Lake
Can anyone give me an accurate picture of when and how rallycross began in Europe?

In January 1967 Autosport carried an announcement of the first rallycross, which read:
"A new form of motor sport has been thought up by John Sprinzel, Barrie Gill of the Sun and Robert Reed of ABC TV’s World of Sport. Called Rallycross, the sport is only open to rally cars. The first event will be organised by the Tunbridge Wells Centre of the 750 MC at Lydden Hill on 4th February…." And Vic Elford’s Porsche 911 was the winner.

In a November 1972 Autosport article Robert Fearnall outlined the origins :
"The original concept of Rallycross involved top rally drivers using their rally cars on a special stage-type course, but although the courses used are suitably varied in tarmac and ‘rough stuff,’ the event is now filled with autocross drivers and their cars, and many of the rally-inspired originators of rallycross resent the word rally being used in the present day events.
February 9 1963 was the date of the very first rallycross-type event, named an "autobog" and organised by Raymond Baxter’s London Motor Club on the Brands Hatch car parks, after the Monte Carlo Rally. Many of the top rally drivers and their cars took part and the event was won by Timo Makinen’s Healy 3000 in ideal snowy conditions. The idea was repeated in 1964 for BBC, but this time at Prescott using the venue’s hillclimb and return roads. Conditions were mainly dry for this February event won by Henry Taylor’s Cortina, while Sweden also held a ‘rallycross-type’ event in 1964 at the Saab’s company property, won by Erik Carlsson’s Saab.
The next event of this type was in 1966 when the Sevenoaks & DMC held a successful but muddy autocross-type event for rally cars on Colin Taylor’s land in September for BBC and in February 1967, the first named rallycross event took place after the Monte at Lydden, won by Vic Elford’s Porsche 911. In November of the same year, there was a special stage event held at Camberley for the television cameras to replace the cancelled RAC Rally and on this occasion Carlsson’s Saab suited the muddy conditions to win from Timo Makinen’s Mini. One week later Lydden was the host of a rallycross for ITV’s World of Sport programme won by Andrew Cowan’s Imp and TEAC staged a clubmen’s meeting for the rallycrossers the following day, but this was not televised. And that signified the start of rallycross as an event for the club autocrosser and not just for the rallymen performing in front of TV camera. In the following years there have been winter series at Lydden, Croft and Cadwell."

On the structure of the events:
"Originally and still at the Lydden and Croft clubmen’s meetings, about four cars start off together in a two or three lap race but the race means very little as it is the best times recorded by each competitor which count for results and this complicated sprint system is hardly adequate for the interest of a television broadcast. To try and overcome this, rallypoint was introduced for ITV television viewers on a rallycross-type field/tarmac course at Ragley Hall, whereby the fastest competitors from the heats went forward in to semi-finals and a final, so that it was the first man past the flag in the final who won the event. This proved much more popular and exciting and rallypoint was repeated at Long Marston in 1971 and ’72, including a good mixture of top rally drivers and cars together with the already established rallycross names. At least, it was getting back to the original idea of televising the exciting antics of rally drivers and their machines. To try to maintain ITV’s interest, the Kentish Border CC (who have been involved with the ITV rallycross series since 1967 at Lydden), copied this more exciting semi-final/final knock-out system for their first Cadwell rallycross of this season."

I’m not sure if "Autobog" was the official title of the Feb 63 event, or if that’s what it was dubbed by Autosport in reflection of the conditions.

#24 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 6,064 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 02 November 2003 - 12:15

Great piece of information Pete, - frighteningly I can remember watching those first events , on TV

#25 Barry Lake

Barry Lake
  • Member

  • 2,169 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 November 2003 - 14:14

Thanks a lot, everyone, and particularly Pete Stowe, for the information on rallycross history. A lot of it is ringing bells, but it was a period when I was self-preparing and racing an open-wheeler, and working two full-time jobs to pay for it. I had no money to buy magazines, nor the time to read them.

#26 rx-guru

rx-guru
  • Member

  • 255 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 15 September 2006 - 13:25

Found this thread just a couple of days ago. Wonder if there is any use to reply some years later. However, under this link http://www.rallycross.de/ed(d)itor/rx_history.html (please copy and paste as the brackets disturb the system!) one can find the true history of Rallycross, but for the moment in German language only – SORRY! English version will be completed later this year.

The plain facts are:

The first ever RX was held on February 4 1967 at Lydden Circuit, more than half a year prior to the cancelled RAC Rally (due to foot and mouth). Therefore, the birth of RX can NOT be straight connected with the RAC. The true daddies of RX are Robert Reed (of ITV by then), the late Bud Smith († 1994; for 750 MC by then) and the late Bill Chesson († 1999; owner of Lydden Circuit by then), while commentator/journalist/racer John Sprinzel invented the name Rallycross just a couple of days prior to the event. However, the first ever international RX at Lydden Circuit, on November 25 1967, is truly connected with the RAC as the event lost all its foreign entrants as they went home soon after the rally cancellation.

The so-called "Mini Monte" at the Brands Hatch car parks in February 1963 was probably the first ever Rallysprint, but had nothing to do with RX. RX was invented for four cars at a time while Brands Hatch saw just a single car competing against the clock.

The first ever RX outside the UK was organised on June 7 1969 on military testing grounds near Venlo in Holland. After two years of events organised at Venlo for and covered by AVRO TV the Nederlandse Rallycross Vereniging (NRV) [Dutch RX Association] opened the first just for RX designed and build venue, the Eurocircuit at Valkenswaard near Eindhoven, with its maiden race on April 17 1971.

#27 Terry Walker

Terry Walker
  • Member

  • 3,005 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 15 September 2006 - 13:56

OT: Peter Harper is gone? I remember buying his book, and really enjoying it. Can't remember the title. Doubtless ghost written, but still fun.

#28 RS2000

RS2000
  • Member

  • 2,572 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 15 September 2006 - 15:09

I was at the Lydden event the weekend after the cancelled 67 RAC Rally - as was Paddy Hopkirk, seen here. One of the leading private entrants there in Autocross cars (that saw of the works rallycars in many subsequent events) was Roy Edwards in a Cooper S, to be seen these days in Post-Historic rallying in an Escort.

Posted Image

#29 rx-guru

rx-guru
  • Member

  • 255 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 15 September 2006 - 15:23

Is this pic and/or information from Saturday's International RX or Sunday's TEAC Clubmen RX?

#30 RS2000

RS2000
  • Member

  • 2,572 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 15 September 2006 - 15:45

First day? (when Harper in Group5 Imp won?).
Tony Chappell's Lotus Cortina ? (he was due to drive a works Group 2 car on the cancelled RAC alongside Soderstrom in Gp2 and R.Clark and G.Hill in Gp5):

Posted Image

#31 RS2000

RS2000
  • Member

  • 2,572 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 15 September 2006 - 15:52

The other works Mini there (both Group6 cars). Although it took part in (and won?) the single TV stage run on the first day of the cancelled RAC, the Makinen 8port fuel injected car was not at Lydden.

Posted Image

#32 rx-guru

rx-guru
  • Member

  • 255 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 15 September 2006 - 18:15

In Pete Stowe's text (further up) it reads that Erik "on the roof" Carlsson (Saab) won the RAC replacement from Timo Mäkinen (Mini)... By the way, is Camberley identical with Bagshot testing grounds? I heard about the RAC replacement single stage under this name.

The supposed international event at Lydden one week later was won by Andrew Cowan (Imp). Peter Harper (Imp) was runner-up and Tony Fall (BMC 1800) third. And yep, Roger Clark (fourth overall) and Graham Hill both shared a Ford Lotus Cortina GT that Saturday at Lydden.

#33 RS2000

RS2000
  • Member

  • 2,572 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 15 September 2006 - 19:08

Camberley was I think the forest stage north of the Military College and east of the Transport and Road Research Laboratory at Crowthorne. First stage on 1966 RAC and then called Bramshill but not the modern stage by Bramshill police college some distance away, as is Bagshot. Camberley was used again as last stage on 1970 RAC I think and cost one of the works Alpine Renaults the win when it got bogged down?

#34 RS2000

RS2000
  • Member

  • 2,572 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 15 September 2006 - 19:21

Works 1800 at Lydden. Not sure if Fall's. (Fall was Makinen's passenger on the "run for TV" RAC stage).

Posted Image

#35 RS2000

RS2000
  • Member

  • 2,572 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 15 September 2006 - 19:29

Frost-covered works Group 6 Imp the morning of the cancelled 67 RAC Rally. Cowan's winning car at Lydden the next weekend?

Posted Image

#36 rx-guru

rx-guru
  • Member

  • 255 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 17 September 2006 - 12:38

Thanx a lot for digging out these ol' pics, RS2000!

Apropos, I used to drive a Group 1 (or was it rather a tame "Group 1/2"...?) RS2000 with "Eichberg Tuning" parts for three or four years of the late 1970s on the roads over here and was the nightmare of the local chicken... :cool:

#37 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 6,064 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 27 September 2007 - 12:24

Just found this Rallycross at Croft about 1970 ?

http://www.bgw.pwp.b...vies/Croft.html

#38 Rosemayer

Rosemayer
  • Member

  • 1,253 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 27 September 2007 - 16:33

I would rather watch Rally cross than what they show here on this side of the pond.We don't even show RAC anymore.This is what they show instead.3000HP 4 wheel drive mud dragsters.



#39 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 6,064 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 27 September 2007 - 16:52

I wish the RAC rally was still in existance . The Cardiff rally isn't in the same league.

Advertisement

#40 Andrew Kitson

Andrew Kitson
  • Member

  • 2,535 posts
  • Joined: July 03

Posted 27 September 2007 - 17:02

Those early Lydden rallycross TV broadcasts were great! I remember Hugh Wheldon in his Mini and of course Jenson Button's father John, in his VW Beetle. There was also a Lotus Europa, strangely covered in velvet - Paul Kerridge ring any bells? Hugh Wheldon also did a circuit special saloon race at Lydden in a Mini, late sixties. I think it was one of the first 'live' on-board TV broadcasts. It had a series of large transmitter aerials on the roof and a huge camera inside filling the back seat space. Saturday BBC Grandstand, Rallycross at Lydden or club racing from Thruxton..great!

#41 sterling49

sterling49
  • Member

  • 10,917 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 27 September 2007 - 17:14

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Those early Lydden rallycross TV broadcasts were great! I remember Hugh Wheldon in his Mini and of course Jenson Button's father John, in his VW Beetle. There was also a Lotus Europa, strangely covered in velvet - Paul Kerridge ring any bells? Hugh Wheldon also did a circuit special saloon race at Lydden in a Mini, late sixties. I think it was one of the first 'live' on-board TV broadcasts. It had a series of large transmitter aerials on the roof and a huge camera inside filling the back seat space. Saturday BBC Grandstand, Rallycross at Lydden or club racing from Thruxton..great!


And Rod Chapman and John Taylor......in Stormont Engineering and Haynes of Maidstone, Escorts respectively, incidentally on my next trip to Rye Harbour I am hoping to meet Mr Chapman, who is the landlord of some businesses that I work with, just up the road from the old Weslake site. :smoking:

#42 Rosemayer

Rosemayer
  • Member

  • 1,253 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 27 September 2007 - 17:33

Heres a cossie escort at Lydden.



#43 Todd

Todd
  • Member

  • 18,936 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 27 September 2007 - 17:41

Originally posted by RTH
Just found this Rallycross at Croft about 1970 ?

http://www.bgw.pwp.b...vies/Croft.html


Great video. I also liked the one from the group B era, which featured Ford RS200 v. MG Metro 6R4 v. VW Beetle. I generally agree that although the racing formats may be good these days, current WRC cars are far from spectacular. Infinite chassis and torque management technology combined with less power than many a road car makes for cars that are far from as interesting to watch as they were when they had either no chassis technology or more power than anything else. :yawn:

#44 sterling49

sterling49
  • Member

  • 10,917 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 27 September 2007 - 17:48

Originally posted by Rosemayer
Heres a cossie escort at Lydden.


I used to marshall at Brands for the Rally X Grand Prix in the days of martin Schanke (sp).....definitely more power than grip!!!! Bring it on!!!!

#45 Simpson RX1

Simpson RX1
  • Member

  • 300 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 27 September 2007 - 20:54

I've got vivid memories of Rally Cross meetings held at Brands in the 80s, with home made specials competing against Group B 'Evo' cars, particular Martin Schanche (what a character!) in his RS200, Dimi 'Blackbird' Mavropolous in the Quattro, Will Gollop in his very trick 6R4, but especially some bloke in a flourescent green 911.

Not quite sure of his name (might've been Kivimakki), but this thing had a 962 motor stuffed up it's behind, reputedly running in qualifying trim and kicking out something over 1500bhp; watching that thing launch across the top of the Southbank was something else!!!

#46 rx-guru

rx-guru
  • Member

  • 255 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 28 September 2007 - 09:12

Originally posted by Simpson RX1
I've got vivid memories of Rally Cross meetings held at Brands in the 80s, with home made specials competing against Group B 'Evo' cars, particular Martin Schanche (what a character!) in his RS200, Dimi 'Blackbird' Mavropolous in the Quattro, Will Gollop in his very trick 6R4, but especially some bloke in a flourescent green 911.

Not quite sure of his name (might've been Kivimakki), but this thing had a 962 motor stuffed up it's behind, reputedly running in qualifying trim and kicking out something over 1500bhp; watching that thing launch across the top of the Southbank was something else!!!


Phhh, all these circulating dream bhp-figures about former RX cars without turbo restrictors (currently 45mm required). Whatever they may have reached on a testing bank – I’m quite sure there was never any on a RX track with more than about 750bhp. Seemingly you’re looking for a Finn, but I don’t remember one in a "flourescent green 911". Finns with a Porsche 911 BiTurbo 4x4 during the 1980s were: Matti Alamäki, Seppo Niittymäki, Jarmo Lähteenmäki, Jukka Pelttari, Antero Nikkinen, Pekka Rantanen, Mauno Jokinen and Pauli Silvennoinen – if I do not forget one…

#47 Jesper O. Hansen

Jesper O. Hansen
  • Member

  • 582 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 29 September 2007 - 17:15

The best years according to me was when the Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth ruled division 1: 2WD group A cars. Kenneth Hansen kept a smooth line through tracks and circumstances better than any other RS500 driver during the era and won his first four titles. Around 1990 TV was heavy on rallycross and 600 bhp was mentioned for the top RS500's. Keeping in mind that they only had to do, what, 5 km? at a time, it seems reasonable - only to be beaten by Herbert Breiteneder and his VW Golf GTI 16V in wet weather, and later on Steinar Jøranli and his Opel Kadett GSi 2.0 16V was the evil spirit!

Jesper

#48 sterling49

sterling49
  • Member

  • 10,917 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 29 September 2007 - 17:53

For me, the best days of Rally X were the early Lydden and Croft races circa 1968-1975, the cars were more or less rally/competition cars, with no fancy 4 wheel drive or trick differentials ( errr, except for Harry/Jan in BDA engined DAFs, and Roger/Stan Clark in the 4WD Capri and Culcheth Triumph 1300). In those days there was even mud to drive through and a good screenwasher was essential, the chalk at Lydden is now like a mettalled surface, although still slippery when wet. For me, the fact that I could (if I could afford it) replicate these cars with performance parts from either Leyland ST or Boreham, kind of gave us young guns something to aim for, we knew the bits we wanted, just had to earn the money. Try that now with a Focus WRC or Subaru!!!!

#49 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 6,064 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 29 September 2007 - 17:59

:up:

#50 sterling49

sterling49
  • Member

  • 10,917 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 29 September 2007 - 18:03

We are from the same school Richard !!