78 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

I'm probably not alone in cursing my English inability to learn foreign languages - I can stumble by in schoolboy French, Italian and German but the latter is weakest by far. I have just come across a fascinating Mercedes-Benz GP car listing the 'fruherer Standort' and 'jetziger Standort' ("present location" - OK???) of W125 and W154 cars apparently at the end of the noisiness c. 1945. (Document date is actually March 15, 1946)

Standort = location but what does 'fruherer' mean???

Presently in my current state of pig ignorance it looks to me as if one W125 - now disappeared - had been with "A. Siegert Brieg. b. Bresl." (company name??? Breslau???)

A second had been with "E. Laise Gr. - Briesnitz" and was presently at "Werk Ut. Halle Grotz"

A third had been at "Kulmbach" - now also at "Werk Ut. H. Grotz"

A fourth at "Werk Ut." - now at "Ndl. Hamburg"

A fifth - without engine - at "Ndl. Dresden denn Kulmbach" - now at "Ut. Halle Grotz"

A sixth - "Rekord-Wg. m. Radverkl." (' record car with enclosed wheels'???) - at "J.F. Kuhnel, Leipa/Bohmen" - now unknown.

The "80 Super-Rennwagen" (T80 LSR car presumably) - without motor - had been at "Pluderhausen" - present location "Ut. , H. Grotz". (Were these 'Halle' - factory workshop halls or warehouses???)

The first of the W154s listed (not in particular order) had been at "Werk Ut." and was presently at "Ndl. Hamburg".

Second W154 without engine had been at "Krutina & Mohle" - now at "Ut. H. Grotz"

Third W154 at "M. Rosler, Sprottau" (umlaut over the 'o' so presumably 'Roesler'???) - presently whereabouts unknown.

Fourth W154 same as above.

Fifth W154 at "J.F.Kuhnel, Leipa/Bohmen" - presently unknown. ('Boehmen' by the way...)

Sixth W154 at "Neupaka" - presently missing, unknown - "unbekannt"...

Seventh W154 same as above

Eighth W154 at "Kulmbach" - presently with its mates at "Ut. H. Grotz".

Ninth W154 at "Eisenstadt" - presently unknown, lost, "unbekannt".

Tenth W154 same as above

NOW IT GETS INTERESTING...

W165 1.5-litre 8 zylinder chassis "449548/3" at "Kaltwesser b. Luben" - present whereabouts unknown, missing, "unbekannt".

Second W165 chassis "449546/1" at "Moritzburg" - presently at "Ndl. Zurich"

Third W165 chassis "449547/2" at "Moritzburg" - presently at "Ndl. Zurich"

FOURTH W165 chassis "439806/4" at "J.F.Kuhnel, Leipa/Bohmen" - presently "Unbekannt".

Right - so six W125s, the unique T80 LSR car, ten W154s and FOUR W165s...

Can any of our German friends identify any of the companies/locations listed????

DCN

[ReWind]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
What does 'fruherer' mean???

"Werk Ut."

"Ndl. Hamburg"

"Rekord-Wg. m. Radverkl." (' record car with enclosed wheels'???)

"Früherer" means former, earlier, previous.

"Ut." could be an abbreviation of (Stuttgart-)Untertürkheim, "Werk" means works, so that would make sense.

"Ndl." is abbreviation of "Niederlassung" meaning branch.

And yes, "Radverkl." is a slightly shortened version of "Radverkleidung" meaning enclosed wheels.

[Vitesse2]

FOURTH W165? The 1940 Prototype? Or an unraced 1939 car? It seems to have an earlier c/n

In Bohemia ..... Is that Bohemia as in Germany or as in Czechoslovakia?

[Vitesse2]

Leipa is now Lipa, in the Czech Republic. There's a Honda dealer called Pavel Kuhnel

[Vitesse2]

So, a record car, a W154 and a W165 in the Sudetenland/Bohemia/Bohemia & Moravia/Czechoslovakia/whatever you want to call it. Interesting .....

[Vitesse2]

Brieg b(ei?) Breslau - now in Poland and called Brzeg.

[Vitesse2]

Neupaka - now in the Czech Republic: Nová Paka.

[Ray Bell]

I hope someone can track one of the missing 165s down...

Marion Anderson would love to do a full report on that little V8 engine!

Interesting stuff, Doug.

[Jonas]

Extremely interesting, this!!
Just the idea of the existence of more than two W165's!

These things must, methinks, be known to the MB factory. So I was just wondering; how keen are the chaps at MB to tell about these things (whereabouts of cars, existance of "unknown" prototypes and so on..) to the public?

I was once interested to learn how many MB Silver Arrows still existed, so I wrote to the MB historic archives and asked. I got a satisfactory answer telling how many cars the factory had in possession today. I was surprised to learn that that is quite a few! But what I wanted to say is that I (who am by no means to be considered an authority on these matters in any way!) got that information just by asking. So if someone with a few connections....

Again, amazing material Doug

[anjakub]

Kaltwesser (probably Kaltwasser) b. Luben = Zimna Woda near Lubin (Poland)
Sprottau = Szprotawa (Poland)
Brieg = Brzeg (Poland)
All localities are in Lower Silesia.

[Doug Nye]

Thanks for your input - the T80's hidey-hole - Pluderhausen - is a small town due east of Stuttgart, just under halfway to Aalen, right?

Two of the FOUR W165s were kept at Moritzburg - there's a Moritzburg Castle some 15 mins north-east of Dresden on the Elbe in Lower Saxony???

Two W125s and a W154 were at Kulmbach - There's a Kulmbach in Upper Frankonia, north-eastern Bavaria???

Two more W154s were at Eisenstadt - there's an Eisenstadt in Austria between Graz and Vienna????

DCN

[Gary C]

Blimey! This is interesting stuff!! You could make a whole TV programme about searching for the missing MB's! But wait, hasn't that been done...??

[Doug Nye]

Indeed it has Gary - and it was CRAP!

[Gary C]

well..........................I didn't like to speak ill of the dead.............

[Vitesse2]

Intriguing that so many of the cars were dispersed outside the traditional Vaterland, but within areas which were considered (by the Nazis) to be part of the Greater Reich and traditionally German - Silesia, Bohemia, Austria.

So, if there were four (or even three!) W165s, are the two in Switzerland, under the watchful eye of Caracciola of course, the actual pair which ran at Tripoli? The chassis numbers would seem to indicate that, with a third presumably built to race at Monza in September? But what does that out of sequence c/n on the fourth car signify?

[Ray Bell]

Would the M-B people have been seeking refuge from risk of bombing, which would be expected to be concentrated on Germany?

And maybe the thoughts of the M-B Board and Racing Division were unlike those of the Reich?

[IMV]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Sixth W154 at "Neupaka" - presently missing, unknown - "unbekannt"...

Seventh W154 same as above

DCN

I can confirm this - Neupaka is really Nová Paka. Two of W154 cars survived WWII in workshops of pre- and postwar motorbike dealer and racing driver Antonín Vitvar. One of them was sold to USA, where was raced in Indy, the second one is the piece in National Technical Museum in Prague.

Michal

[Steffen]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
So, if there were four (or even three!) W165s, are the two in Switzerland, under the watchful eye of Caracciola of course, the actual pair which ran at Tripoli?

According to a MB book I have, the Tripoli cars stayed in Switzerland. The other two W165s are not even mentioned.

[IMV]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Leipa is now Lipa, in the Czech Republic. There's a Honda dealer called Pavel Kuhnel

Just talked with him - he is not related to J.F.Kühnel, he became new to this area 3 year ago.

Michal

[McRonalds]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Two W125s and a W154 were at Kulmbach - There's a Kulmbach in Upper Frankonia, north-eastern Bavaria???

That's right Doug - I run a office there. They also call it the (secret) capital of beer! Never heard of that story before - I wonder where to find more information about it.

[David McKinney]

Wonderful discovery Doug
Am I right in assuming your use of terms "first, second, third" etc is a deliberate attempt to remove any suggestion that you're talking chassis numbers?

[Doug Nye]

Absolutely! They're all muddled out of numerical order in any case - in the sense of W125/1, W125/2 etc etc. I'll try to post the full document at some time, but I do find the cars' wartime locations interesting.

DCN

[RTH]

Be interesting to see a list of other significant cars which are currently not accounted for and officially on the "Missing in Action " list and in what parts of the world they are currently likely to be languishing under sheets in barns probably with custodians unaware of just what they have .

[Holger Merten]

Interesting thread and posts.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Steffen


According to a MB book I have, the Tripoli cars stayed in Switzerland. The other two W165s are not even mentioned.

Ah, well that's the intriguing thing Steffen - only two W165s are definitely known to have existed: the two Tripoli cars. There is documentary/hearsay evidence of a possible third car (the 1940 prototype I mentioned), but I don't think anyone has ever considered the possibility of there being four! Logically "449548/3" ought to be a third 1939 car, while the suffix would seem to indicate that "439806/4" is a fourth in the series - so why is the main part of the chassis number a lower figure than the other three?

[marion5drsn]

I don't know about the other stuff but the secret beer location is fascinating! M.L. Anderson
If I am able to find it, is the beer free?

[Michael Müller]

Really interesting stuff, indeed...!
The locations chosen for sheltering the cars against bombing raids had been as much in the East /Southeast as possible, but of course still on "friendly" territory. Silesia was German before 1945, and Bohemia was at least considered as German by the Nazis, with a large German population in some parts. It was necessary to find reliable and trustworthy people in these areas, so most probably all these persons and/or places named in the document had been local Mercedes-Benz dealers or garages, or close friends or relatives of high-ranking MB people.
The date of such movings would be of interest, because it is obvious that at this time these locations had been considered as safe in connection with the Red Army moving westwards.

"Halle Grotz" is the designation of the workshop/warehouse within the factory, although all buildings had numerical official designations, these were seldom used by the workers, most building hads been known internally by the name of the corresponding foreman. Sometimes persons retired already years ago are kept "famous" because "their" workshop still carries their name - inofficially of course. When such designations are used for years or even decades, it is very difficult to change it only because the old foreman has retired...!

[Leif Snellman]

Great list Doug!

[Hans Etzrodt]

Secret listings are finally seeing daylight? This topic was always shrouded in mystery. Keep on going, Doug!
No Vienna circuit map found in my magazines (AUTOMOBIL-REVUE and MOTOR und SPORT).

[GIGLEUX]

About the W165s: I have not Quick Silver century under the hand but it seems to me that Karl Ludvigsen wrote about three cars at least.
When reading my notes about the W165:
-Auto Passion about the W165 on show at Retromobile 1991: the Thursday following the 1938 Italian GP, the big staff of Mercedes gave its OK: three new 1500 cars will be built and two at least will compete in the 1939 Tripoli GP.
-Classic and Sportscar September 1995 about the W165s: 18/11/1938 marked "Strictly Confidential", an official construction order lays down plans to create THREE W165 chassis and three M165 1.5 litre engines.
-Always in C and SC, further: 29 January 1940: the climate has changed dramatically. Europe is at war but who knows how long it will last? Planning for the 1940 Tripoli GP, Mercedes authorises a FOURTH W165 chassis (the parts for the third were made in 1939 but not built up), two more M165 engines and two streamlined bodies. This instruction is rescinded two months later as the conflict deepens, but developpement work continues for most of the year and a streamlined body is fitted to the third 1939 chassis.

[Vitesse2]

The article mentioned by Jean-Maurice also says that the two Tripoli cars were in a "consignment transferred for safekeeping to Dresden", some time between 1940 and 1942, then to Switzerland in early 1945. Chassis 1 is claimed to be Caracciola's Tripoli car, chassis 2 (completed on the boat!) Lang's.

There's also a picture of the "streamliner": difficult to tell if it's a photo or a super-realist drawing, but the streamlining is just teardrop fairings over the wheels.

So - according to that - theoretically, we're looking at the two Tripoli cars; a third, which may or may not have been completed (with or without streamlining) and a possible fourth chassis which apparently wasn't even started. And FIVE engines!

One wonders whether chassis 3 and (more especially) 4 might just be "boxes of bits" ....

[anjakub]

Question: How many Mercedes-Benz W125, W154 and W165 exists now? And where?

[Brun]

Wow...

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
NOW IT GETS INTERESTING...

W165 1.5-litre 8 zylinder chassis "449548/3" at "Kaltwesser b. Luben" - present whereabouts unknown, missing, "unbekannt".

Second W165 chassis "449546/1" at "Moritzburg" - presently at "Ndl. Zurich"

Third W165 chassis "449547/2" at "Moritzburg" - presently at "Ndl. Zurich"

FOURTH W165 chassis "439806/4" at "J.F.Kuhnel, Leipa/Bohmen" - presently "Unbekannt".

Right - so six..... and FOUR W165s...

Sorry, but I am still reeling from this bit of information..... Interesting that apparently the only serials given were for the W165's..... Hmmmmm....

[Doug Nye]

No Don - there are serials cited for every one of the cars but I only shared what is to me the really startling bit...

DCN

[Don Capps]

Oh.... .... Duh!

[Steffen]

Are there serials which are closer to the fourth W165 chassis?
Perhaps it could be a modified older chassis or a not finished prototype?

[Holger Merten]

Four!
Very interesting. May it's a secret Doug, but what are your sources. Seems to be internal MB material talking about the situation of cars, chassis and so on a few days before "1000 years" were over. AND MB described th situation of the cars, looking forward, what will be the future. An book of a book british historian about the MB history describes the MB situation very good: Star and Swastika by Neil Gregor.

So from when are your sources?

[Doug Nye]

No Holger - it was after the end of the 1,000 years optimism (!) - as I wrote in post 1 of this thread it is quoted from "...a fascinating Mercedes-Benz GP car listing the 'fruherer Standort' and 'jetziger Standort' ("present location" - OK???) of W125 and W154 cars apparently at the end of the noisiness c. 1945. (Document date is actually March 15, 1946)...".

It's amazing what you can learn if you read carefully.

DCN

[Holger Merten]

You are right Doug, I started reading this interesting thread too late. And usually the first post is just a teaser and the further posts are the power to go on strong. Although I tried to read carefully, I didn't recognice your information about 1946. Excuse me.

But interesting is, there were people interested in the situation of the MB-GP-cars in 1946. Wonderful to know, that this should be so important. But who was interested in it. Or do I have to read once again carefully?;)

[Doug Nye]

No, no, no - of course not - it is copied from a contemporary original internal Daimler-Benz AG document.

DCN

[Holger Merten]

Okay, but that's interesting too. One year after the end of the war MB was searching for their cars. Okay, seems to me correct with their history. AND a fourth W 165 chassis!!!!!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
(Document date is actually March 15, 1946)...".
DCN

Beware the Ides of March .....;)

[Ray Bell]

Isn't that what Chris Amon said?

A question: Did M-B ever sell off a competition car with a works history?

[RTH]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Beware the Ides of March .....;)

Good band .

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Did M-B ever sell off a competition car with a works history?

There's a W196 in private ownership

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Isn't that what Chris Amon said?

A question: Did M-B ever sell off a competition car with a works history?

I don't know how the MB in the Schlumpf collection should came to france, if Neubauer didn't sell it, or changed it....

[Doug Nye]

...the TWO Mercedes-Benz W154s in the Schlumpf Collection....???

DCN

[Holger Merten]

I don't know if there are two, I just know one of them, but I know, that this car was "given" to the Schlumpf brothers by Neubauer. I don't know for wgat, if it was an official deal, but this MB stand in Mulhouse.

[IMV]

Originally posted by IMV


I can confirm this - Neupaka is really Nová Paka. Two of W154 cars survived WWII in workshops of pre- and postwar motorbike dealer and racing driver Antonín Vitvar. One of them was sold to USA, where was raced in Indy, the second one is the piece in National Technical Museum in Prague.

Michal

I just came from Nova Paka where I heard a little bit different story. Guy, who´s relative was mechanic of Vitvar told me, that those two cars weren´t at Nová Paka from the beginning. These cars came with some transport from Poland, where they probably thanks to coming Red Army lost their safe place. They were stored in old textile factory in Stará Paka (village, let say part of Nová Paka), where Germans had one of assembly lines for Messerschmidt engines. Shortly before end of WWII, when Nazis were in hurry, they left everything there. Vitvar took the cars, moved them to his workshops and wall up them to save them from sniffing Soviet soldiers, who also had some infos about the cars. After dust settled down and army came off, Vitvar took cars out, made some detailed pictures (the guy promised me to loan a negative film with those snaps) and tried to run one of them. Without knowledge of special fuel was not successful and decided to sold the cars.