78 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

IMV - what a GREAT piece of information! The move from Poland has entirely the ring of truth about it. Thanks so much - it would be wonderful (err, if not miraculous in fact!) if we could find such eye witness accounts from the other locations in which these entirely charismatic machines survived the war... If the promised photographs ever appear EVEN BETTER!!!

DCN

[Ray Bell]

I find all this talk of 'selling' the cars very interesting...

Surely they belonged to Mercedes-Benz? They were not the property of the 'sellers' at all?

Could M-B now come in and reclaim them?

David...

Who has the W196? And how did that come about?

Holger...

I recall reading that the Schlumpfs got a priceless M-B racer of some sort in trade for a very early model that they had found. Doug may know more...

[Marcor]

From the Kaltenbach article: location of the cars after the war and today (January 2001).
Wagen 1: destroyed, -
wagen 2: destroyed, -
Wagen 3: ?, ?
Wagen4: destroyed, -
Wagen 5: destroyed, -
Wagen 6: Poland, MNA Mulhouse
Wagen 7: Romania, USA California (Arturo Keller collection)
Wagen 8: Poland, ? (never found again)
Wagen 9: Czechoslovakia, Germany
Wagen 10: Czachoslovakia, Prague (Technical Museum)
Wagen 11, Works MB Stuttgart, Museum Mercedes-Benz Stuttgart
Wagen 12: Berlin, Museum Mercedes-Benz Stuttgart
Wagen 14: Works MB Stuttgart, Museum Mercedes-Benz Stuttgart
Wagen 15: Romania, Germany (private collection)
Wagen 16: Berlin, MNA Mulhouse

[GIGLEUX]

Ray, when it appeared in 2000 the W196 Mercedes-Benz had been acquired by M.Loh; the car was driven by W.Green.

[David McKinney]

Yes, thanks J-M, Friedholm Loh, a German collector
This particular car had previously been owned by French collector Jacky Seton, and before that by Anthony Bamford in the UK. The car had many years earlier been donated by D-B to the National Motor Museum (Beaulieu), and I seem to remember a bit of a stink at the time of the Museum's sale of it. There were those who thought D-B wouldn't have given the car to Beaulieu if they thought it was going to be resold

[anjakub]

That's puzzle.

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Sixth W154 at "Neupaka" - presently missing, unknown - "unbekannt"...
Seventh W154 same as above

Originally posted by IMV
Guy, who´s relative was mechanic of Vitvar told me, that those two cars weren´t at Nová Paka from the beginning. These cars came with some transport from Poland, where they probably thanks to coming Red Army lost their safe place.

Where they were earlier in Poland?
If there are these two from Sprottau?




And little correction: Brieg bei Breslau = Brzeg Dolny

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Yes, thanks J-M, Friedholm Loh, a German collector
This particular car had previously been owned by French collector Jacky Seton, and before that by Anthony Bamford in the UK. The car had many years earlier been donated by D-B to the National Motor Museum (Beaulieu), and I seem to remember a bit of a stink at the time of the Museum's sale of it. There were those who thought D-B wouldn't have given the car to Beaulieu if they thought it was going to be resold

It was a bit of a scandal.
The NMM sold a car that had seemingly only been loaned to them by D-B.

Obviously they got out of that problem.

But the real scandal was the price they got for the car.

The new owner of the car reportedly sold it for about 10 times what he paid for it.

So the real mistake was in giving the car away - all museums need all the money they can get but it was daft to lose so much in one go.

[Henk]

I have plotted the locations on a map of the ‘Third Reich’.
http://www.visscher....MBdispersal.jpg

I believe that the map reflects some aspects of the expected two-stage scenario for safeguarding the MB racing cars during WWII:
- Well-organized measures by Daimler-Benz to escape potential damage by Allied strategic bombing: eastward migration.
- Improvised initiatives following the collapse of the eastern front and the advance of the Soviet army: westward ‘retreat’, underground storage.

[dretceterini]

Maybe the thing with the serial numers is similar to what happened at Alfa. In many cases, a bunch of chassis were built, but one with a lower serial number was actually compleated later.

It is my strong belief that no where near as many Alfa 6c2300B-MMs were built as claimed. In my opinion, quite a few actually were compleated as pre-war 6c2500s.

[VAR1016]

The notion that there were more than two W165s is fascinating.

Perhaps someone can help? Somewhere I have read that M-B continued development of the W165's engine - up until 1942 I think, with substantial horsepower being obtained.

First, can anyone tell me where I read this (I cannot remember) and second what was the cliamed output of the Tripoli cars?


Thanks in advance.

PdeRL

[dretceterini]

I believe they were rated at something like 270 @ 8200

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by dretceterini
I believe they were rated at something like 270 @ 8200

Thanks; if they had 270HP at Tripoli, no wonder they beat the Alfas, which probably had no more than 200 or so at the time.

PdeRL

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by VAR1016
.....what was the cliamed output of the Tripoli cars?

The only source that I have for the W165 engine data states the following:

Bore and Stroke: 64 X 58 mm
Displacement: 1495 cm2
Compression Ratio: 7.0
Boost Pressure: 1.38 bar
Output: 246 hp at 7500 rpm
Torque: 241 Nm at 6000 rpm
Engine Weight: 190 kg

I have no idea what developmental specification this data represents. This information is from "Mercedes-Benz Silver Arrows"; Bolsinger/Becker; Page 169.

On page 52 of the same book, there is contradictory information as follows: ".... the W165 had only a 1.5 liter displacement, yet developed 275 hp at 8200 rpm."

I assume that the motor designation is M165, but I am sure that Karl or Doug would have more accurate information on your question than I can provide.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
The only source that I have for the W165 engine data states the following:

Bore and Stroke: 64 X 58 mm
Displacement: 1495 cm2
Compression Ratio: 7.0
Boost Pressure: 1.38 bar
Output: 246 hp at 7500 rpm
Torque: 241 Nm at 6000 rpm
Engine Weight: 190 kg

I have no idea what developmental specification this data represents. This information is from "Mercedes-Benz Silver Arrows"; Bolsinger/Becker; Page 169.

On page 52 of the same book, there is contradictory information as follows: ".... the W165 had only a 1.5 liter displacement, yet developed 275 hp at 8200 rpm."

I assume that the motor designation is M165, but I am sure that Karl or Doug would have more accurate information on your question than I can provide.

Thanks Dennis

PdeRL

[GIGLEUX]

So what were the real hps developped by the M165 engine?:

-Les Mercedes à compresseur Schrader/Demand: 256 hp at 8000 rpm
-Mercedes Grand Prix Racing Monkhouse 256 hp at 8000 rpm
-Mercedes en compétition Morelli 256 hp at 8000 rpm and after further development 278 hp at 8200 rpm
-The Grand Prix Car Pomeroy 270 bhp at 7500 rpm but be careful here we have british horse power
-The classic twin cam engine Borgeson 256 hp at 8000 rpm and after 278 at 8250 rpm
-German high performance cars Sloniger/v.Fersen 254 hp at 8000 rpm
-Mercedes -Benz J.Lewandowski 278 hp at 8250 rpm
-Grand Prix Motor Racing Cimarosti 254 hp at 8250 rpm
-Les voitures de course G.Lurani 254 hp at 8250 rpm
-Dictionnaire des voitures de sport et de compétition Tragatsch 278 hp at 8250 rpm

So a majority for 254 at 8250 and after development 278 at 8250!

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
So a majority for 254 at 8250 and after development 278 at 8250!

I will certainly subscribe to your analysis of the M-165 Jean-Maurice. Amazing output figures for a 1500 cc supercharged engine using late 1930's metallurgy and technology.

[GIGLEUX]

To complete what was writen in post 30 and 31, here is the picture published by Classic and Sports Car about the streamlined W165

[Dennis Hockenbury]

As this may be a ill informed question, apologies in advance.

In reading about the W-154 and W-165 prompted by the recent TNF threads on this topic, I have wondered how these two cars compared in terms of driveability and lap times.

The W-154 produced 450 + hp with a weight of around 981 kg. using 7 X 19 rear tires.

The W-165 produced 270 + hp with a weight of around 718 kg. using 6 X 17 rear tires.

Most accounts of the Continental tires used by M-B discuss how "hard" the compounds of this period were, and we have all most likely read how the drivers could spin the rear wheels of the W-125 and W-154 even in higher gears. This led on occasion to the tires having a high wear rate and even thrown treads. In essence, overpowered for the available grip. I think the same was also true of the later BRM V-16 as well.

Even with the higher power-to-weight ratio of the W-154, I wonder if the W-165 had more "useable" power given the tire technology used in that era.

It would be interesting to know if the W-165 was comparable in overall performance to the W-154 and if the W-165 would have proven to be a superior overall design than the larger car.

[Henk]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Second W154 without engine had been at "Krutina & Mohle" - now at "Ut. H. Grotz"

Some clues & thoughts...

The firm of Krutina & Möhle operated a cement factory at Malstatt, a coal-mining subburb of Saarbrücken.

In 1943, as German armaments industry was threatened by intensified Allied bombing, large companies started to decentralize their production facilities.

Initially production lines were relocated in small factories in rural areas or small towns, which then delivered components for assembly in the main plants.

From late 1943 onwards, it was systematically attempted to shift production lines to underground locations. Throughout the Third Reich a wide variety of pre-existing tunnels, quarries, mines and other excavations was equipped for storage and production. To accommodate for major assembly lines, concentration camp inmates were forced to dig out large underground complexes in 1944-1945.

This dispersal process was co-ordinated by the Ministry for Armaments and War Production. If owners of the host factories or underground sites didn’t collaborate voluntarily, their property was confiscated. Most of the underground locations received secret code names, such as the infamous ‘Goldfisch’ and ‘Brasse’ sites near Obrigheim, allocated to Daimler-Benz.


Since Saarbrücken was a predictable target for heavy bombing, it is unlikely that the W154 had been stored in the Malstatt factory.

The nearest rock formations from which limestone and gypsum for use in the cement industry can be recovered occur NW of Saarbrücken. Apart from open-pit quarrying, gypsum was mined in large underground works in the vicinity of Siersburg, about 10 km from Saarbrücken. Codenamed ‘Sild’, this site offered 20,000 square meter to various branches of German aircraft industry for the production of parts. It is likely that Daimler-Benz belonged to the users.

‘Sild’ seems a plausible hiding place for a W154. I believe that some of the other locations where MB’s had found shelter are also related to underground sites.

[Holger Merten]

This is really an interesting thread cause it shows how busy MB was with their GP cars to give them safety for bomb attacks. I'm looking forward to the new book about the history of the AU GP-cars after 1939 that will be on the market in the next weeks. We discussed the book already in this thread.



It doesn't look like Auto Union historian Prof Peter Kirchberg and a Russian historian will bring some more light at the end of the tunnel what happend with the cars since 1939. Cause the subtitel says that the book will describe only the search for the missing cars in Russia.

All we knew when I worked for the Audi Tradition dept. was, that the cars were stored in a mine near Zwickau during the war. When the Americans arrived in Zwickau in 1945 some employees drew the attention of the troops to the valuable cars. But the Americans were not interested and therefore the cars made their way on to the east some months later. Only three cars of more than 15 found the way back from the Gulag.

• The Riga car (1939 Typ C/D Hillclimber)
• The 1938 Typ D
• The 1939 Typ D


Isn't ist interesting that AU didn't feel responsible to keep their cars safe. Or wasn't it necessary to transport the AU GP cars to safer places, cause they were safe in the mine? Hope the book will give us a short answer and an overview about the situation from 1939 -1945.

[Scuderia CC]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Yes, thanks J-M, Friedholm Loh, a German collector
This particular car had previously been owned by French collector Jacky Seton, and before that by Anthony Bamford in the UK. The car had many years earlier been donated by D-B to the National Motor Museum (Beaulieu), and I seem to remember a bit of a stink at the time of the Museum's sale of it. There were those who thought D-B wouldn't have given the car to Beaulieu if they thought it was going to be resold

In July 1990 this Mercedes-Benz W196 #000 06 was sold with the French collector Jacky Setton by the intermediary of Edgar Bensoussan of "British Motors" in Paris. The price of this sale was $20,000,000, information comes from Edgar Bensoussan itself. A few years later Jacky Setton resold the W196 #000 06 with the German collector Friedhelm Loh which has it always to date.

Best regards.

[GIGLEUX]

Reading again 1946 Floyd Clymer Indianapolis Race History, I noted:
"Also entered was a Carracciola (sic) Special powered by a 91.5 cu in. Mercedes-Benz engine. Much interest was centered in this entry and it is indeed regettable that it was scratched due to shipping difficulties. By all accounts it would have been a most formidable competitor as well as a subject of intense interest to American designers and engineers. In a recent issue of Autocar (London) the following item regarding this car appeared under the nom de plume Vizor: Great efforts are being made by Caracciola to ship his 1.5 liter Mercedes to America for Indianapolis 500 on May 30. Only three of these cars are believed to have been built, and Mrs Caracciola told me that two were presented to Caracciola by the Mercedes firm. When war broke out, however, Cara-
cciola remained in Switzerland, where he had been living since 1933, and as he was placed on the Nazi black list he was unable to obtain delivery of the cars. They were eventualy smuggled across the frontier to him by friends in Germany during the war, but the third has been seized by the Russians.".
There was also the following interesting picture of Caracciola testing the car near Zurich.



Always in the sam booklet, from Indianapolis News by Pete De Paolo: "Rudolph Caraccioala intended to bring a Mercedes-Benz for the race this year, but it was impossible for him to obtain clearance papers. He is coming to witness the race and get acquainted with the track so that he will be well prepared for the 1947 race. His wife, Alice Caracciola Trobeck, who ordinarily is his pit manager, is accompanying him.".

[Jonas]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
...but the third [W165] has been seized by the Russians.

Is there any substance in this? I've never heard anything about Russians being involved in the W165's, so is this pure nonsense?

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Scuderia CC
In July 1990 this Mercedes-Benz W196 #000 06 was sold with the French collector Jacky Setton by the intermediary of Edgar Bensoussan of "British Motors" in Paris. The price of this sale was $20,000,000, information comes from Edgar Bensoussan itself. A few years later Jacky Setton resold the W196 #000 06 with the German collector Friedhelm Loh which has it always to date. Best regards.

Since this subject has come up I think that this Mercedes-Benz W196 remains the most expensive car sold to date - having cost Setton the then equivalent of some £13-million Sterling, which netted the previous owner something like £11.7-million profit! I believe Setton took a considerable loss financially when he eventually sold the car on to Loh - and it has now been sold on yet again....this time vanishing into (or adjacent to) Saudi Arabia....

DCN

[Pullman99]

Originally posted by Scuderia CC In July 1990 this Mercedes-Benz W196 #000 06 was sold with the French collector Jacky Setton by the intermediary of Edgar Bensoussan of "British Motors" in Paris. The price of this sale was $20,000,000, information comes from Edgar Bensoussan itself. A few years later Jacky Setton resold the W196 #000 06 with the German collector Friedhelm Loh which has it always to date. Best regards.

Since this subject has come up I think that this Mercedes-Benz W196 remains the most expensive car sold to date - having cost Setton the then equivalent of some £13-million Sterling, which netted the previous owner something like £11.7-million profit! I believe Setton took a considerable loss financially when he eventually sold the car on to Loh - and it has now been sold on yet again....this time vanishing into (or adjacent to) Saudi Arabia....DCN

I originally responded to this post on the Jaguar E2A thread:

QUOTE (Alan Cox @ Aug 23 2010, 16:40) Some of you will also recall that the Mercedes W196 which was presented, I believe, to Beaulieu for display in the museum, was sold by Lord Montagu a few years ago

Hi Alan. I believe that this was one of the most controversial sales ever undertaken by a UK transport museum. The car was donated by Daimler-Benz to The National Motor Musuem Trust prior to the original opening of the National Motor Museum in 1972. I think that the car sold may also have been the second one to be displayed and that the one ultimately disposed of may have been the Moss Aintree winner (will stand corrected on that, obvioulsy). This all occurred at a time when the museum was very short of funds and it probably represented the only way of meeting those immediate and future needs through selling an individual vehicle. Although an important car, it did not exactly conform to the museum's stated collecting policy of "Motoring on the roads of Great Britain". As a gift - and I think that the handover featured SM personally - it was for the NMMT to dispose of it as they saw fit.

Am I correct in saying that it went to first to Joel Finn in the United States and then subsequently to a French industrialist? I believe that figues of around $24 Million were bandied about for its latter sale value. In any event, I don't think that the NMMT benefitted to anything like that amount for the original sale. No doubt, disposing of this asset a few years later would have resulted in a far higher figure but I think that the pressure was on to proceed at that time. Quite what Daimler-Benz thought about the whole thing I don't think has been disclosed but I am certain that the museum would have cleared their intentions with a company that had demonstrated support for the museum originally when other - UK based - elements of the motor industry did not. But, it was original and I personally saw it being driven on more than one occasion by the museum's original Chief Engineer, Louis Giron.

Does anyone know more about Chassis 006's current circumstances?

Edited by Pullman99, 23 January 2012 - 13:43.

[Egor]

I wonder where these photos were made?




And I want to ask, though it is unrelated to the topic. What could it be?

[Tim Murray]

And I want to ask, though it is unrelated to the topic. What could it be?

Some details in this earlier thread:

Neubauer in the 2 seater

[jj2728]

I posted this photo in another thread, but figured it might also be useful here.
Indy 1948.

[Cardenas]

I wonder where these photos were made?

Those are New Mercedes W125 replicas.

From the facebook Classic & Sports Car page: W125 replica production in Crosthwaite and Gardiner's workshop yesterday. The second car should be ready for testing this summer. What I'd give to see one raced. Imagine this 525bhp titan gunned by a historic ace around Monaco in 2012. One already finished for Bernie and three more in production. Has to be the ultimate replica but not sure what the factory view is on the project.


I thought Bernie already had an ¿original? W125.