54 replies to this topic

[dbw]

ok, sorry about the thread title but i feel a need to vent a bit....with all the current interest in auto unions [both real and otherwise] it seems to me that the cisitalia 360 was a much more direct ancestor to the current porsche than a c typ auto union to,say,my a6....i know that automotive politics,sales,brand identity [and a bunch of other things i'm sure i'll hear about in great detail] have allowed the "audi tradition" to attempt to relive the glory of it's "heritage"....the auto union silver bludgeons are multiplying at an alarming rate while porsche allows a true progenetor of the porsche line to sit....

while i am quite convinced i will be set straight on the historical plinth upon which the au's sit versus the dark corner of "not quite almost famous" where the 360 rightly belongs,i still have to wonder...would anyone out there rather hear and watch the real cisitalia on the track as opposed to the second[or third] c&g confabulation? anybody out there really care?

[dretceterini]

As an Italian car nut I'm VERY interested in the Cisitalia GP car...even though it's roots are as much South American as Italian. I think the reason for more interest in the Auto Unions (especially what was known as the "E" type) is that the Cisitalia GP story is pretty well known...

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by dretceterini

I think the reason for more interest in the Auto Unions (especially what was known as the "E" type) is that the Cisitalia GP story is pretty well known...

I think the greater interest in the Auto Unions lies fascination with the era of the titanic battles with Mercedes Benz with awesome racers.

[David McKinney]

The Auto Unions' rather better record of Grand Prix wins might also have something to do with it ;)

But I agree with the original point - it would be much better to see (and hear) the Cisitalia run than "just another" Auto Union

[dretceterini]

Well, ya...that stuff too..

:

[T54]

If one is to mention the Ferdinand Porsche-designed Cisitalia, why not mentioning the Sacha-Gordine, a much more advance concept...?
While we are at it.

T54

[Jonas]

How many 360 Cisitalias really exists? Is there more than one? Was there ever more than one built?
The one that I know exists, is it in running condition? Has anyone seen or heard it 'in action'?

Sorry, for this bunch of questions but I find this, along with the ongoing M-B/A-U threads, really interesting as well!
(Busy times at TNF these days )

[T54]

Only one was built as far as I know, never really finished by the time Piero Dusio ran out of green stuff. Last I saw the car it was at Donington. It was not in any running condition.
It remains to be seen if it would have been competitive against the Alfas and later the 4.5 Ferraris...
T54

[Holger Merten]

I think this is an interesting thread for Vitesse2 and Brun. Both made interesting dicoveries about this fantastic car and Vitesse2 could provide us with more interesting pictures. It's up to Brun and Vitesse2 to serve us the menu. (I ate it already a few weeks ago and is was realy fantastic: italian cuisine. )

But an interesting team from the old AU team develloped a much more better car, ten years after the last AU raced. Which shows, how innovative the AU construction was.

[cabianca]

The original Cisitalia GP car did run at one point when it was first built. Set some ersatz Argentine speed record for some class for which the World Record (rather than the Argentine one) was much faster.

[IMV]

Originally posted by T54
Only one was built as far as I know, never really finished by the time Piero Dusio ran out of green stuff. Last I saw the car it was at Donington. It was not in any running condition.
It remains to be seen if it would have been competitive against the Alfas and later the 4.5 Ferraris...
T54

The only built and runned Cisitalia is today complete in Porsche Museum in Stuttgart, the other in Donington was just completed from survived bits from other unfinished car.
Michal

[Vitesse2]

Brun and I have corresponded on the subject of the 360. I think we're both agreed that it's probably the most direct line from the pre-War AUs, being designed by the Porsche Bureau, even if it wasn't developed onwards. It must, nevertheless, have provided Porsche with a lot of useful data for their future road cars.

One peculiarity: in Ferry Porsche's autobiography, he hints that studies were made with a view to developing the Cisitalia engine as an unsupercharged 2 litre for F2: these might have been at the behest of Dusio himself, according to DCN in Motor Racing Mavericks, possibly even with a view to an F1 engine for 1954 ....

Jonas: there were two chassis built out of six planned. One was completed and went to Argentina, the other (never completed in period) turned up in Switzerland in about 1970 and is the one now at Donington.

The Argentina car, which was renamed the Autoar, was unearthed by Huschke von Hanstein and is now in the Porsche Museum, where it's a Cisitalia again!

Here are some pictures of the Autoar on test in Argentina, driven by Felice Bonetto. They're from this thread on the Spanish forum.

[Felix Muelas]

For Forum members that are capable of reading Spanish and for anybody interested in some pictures about the Autoar (nee Cisitalia) -except for Vitesse2 that has already seen them - please take a look at this link

[T54]

[Brun]

Well, I for one would love to see the Cisitalia in action again (dearLordofMarchareyoureadingthis?). Mind you, I've only once seen an Auto Union being driven in real life, on last year's Goodwood FoS... so I could do with many more runs but I have to agree with dbw here that the Cisitalia is more related to the current Porsches than Auto Union is to all post-war Audis. Also, I consider the 360 to be the spiritual remains of the AU Typ E, much more than the Sokol.

The key to the story however is, to my opinion, not the number of cars that exist or are being recreated. I find that it's the driving that leaves much to be desired. Many present Auto Unions are classic examples of reliving history, the Bavarian way. That is: overrestoring ancient items and displaying them in a museum or, in this case, very very carefully drive them along a track. Cars like the Auto Unions have become marketing items instead of historic vehicles.

At the recent Eifel Klassik, I've already annoyed poor Holger with my views, but I really feel strongly about this. Why is it so impossible to recreate a classic race between AU and MB? It only has to be a one-time event, something truly special. I would pay almost any amount of money if both companies would bring their historic racecars to - for example - the Nürburgring or Donington and really let them run flat-out against eachother, flames belching, rear wheels spinning, drivers throwing the tails of the cars around the bends. Think of it as a 1930s Goodwood Revival Meeting.

But they won't even risk one of their many replicas for this, not even for a single event. The thought of going head-to-head against a current-day competing firm in a priceless historic racecars must somehow scare the **** out of both Audi and Mercedes-Benz.

Ah well, perhaps someone will then want to bring together all Auto Unions and the Cisitalia and the Sokol and some Mercedeses at, say, Goodwood? (dream )

[Doug Nye]

Brun - many who made the trip to Donington Park to see two AUs demonstrated were struck almost speechless with disappointment when the two drivers staggered round pathetically slowly and so far off the cam that plugs began to foul. The story I heard - granted, unsubstantiated - was that the Audi executive driving the lead car was superior to the engineer driving the second. The latter was capable of - and willing to - apply some real power, but he would not overtake his boss...in whose wheeltracks he so dutifully followed.

Now how can I put this...?

If those blokes had been Brits - or proper racers like H-J Stuck and Pirro for example - it wouldn't have happened that way. It was a shame.

DCN

[dbw]

why do i have the feeling that the porsche guys...given the challange ...wouldn't tart that baby up,add some pop and a well known hotshoe,and drive the sh*t out of it......


[i'm sure a zillion boxster owners would be hanging on the fence on one side of the track and an equal number of tt guys on the other...most likely the mb owners would be in a tent somewhere sipping a cool drink...but hey! it's advertising...]

[Brun]

And if that engineer had been Dutch, he would tell his boss to never again set foot within a 2 mile radius of that car

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by Brun

The thought of going head-to-head against a current-day competing firm in a priceless historic racecars must somehow scare the **** out of both Audi and Mercedes-Benz.

After driving a 1939 W154 around the Nurburgring, Phil Hill pronounced it 'the most terrifying car he had ever driven' and went on to raise his helmet to the cloth helmeted chappies who raced them in earnest. So maybe it would be more than the MB and AU management who would have the **** scared out of them

[Ray Bell]

For my money... if the construction of replicars means there's a better chance that one day I'll see and hear one of the cars, go for it!

As long as they're exact replicas (and identified as such), the more the merrier... I've seen the W165 and the W196 (with 3-litre engine... that would be 'Temporada trim' wouldn't it? And that's it!

[Holger Merten]

As I promised Vitesse2 and Brun had somthing tp post here.

Originally posted by Brun


At the recent Eifel Klassik, I've already annoyed poor Holger with my views, but I really feel strongly about this. Why is it so impossible to recreate a classic race between AU and MB? (dream )

Brun, when I start reading your post, I just remembered our discussion. As you wrote, the cars are marketing items. And if you make them rare (rare in "not racing") you make them an unreachable marketing icon. As you, everybody could dream about a race between AU and MB. And as I told you, 11 years ago I tried to let the DM Typ C race against the MB W 125. And 24 hours before the start, MB and the Deutsches Museum cancelled this event.

And don't forget, it's so expensive to run an AU. After 8 - 16 hours the whole car must go to a complete service. That means a month of work for three and more persons plus transport, parts and so on. So it's a big marketing budget we Audi drivers paid to Ingolstadt, to see run the heritage of our cars. It's easier to run some old Alfas, as we had seen at the Nürburgring.

Ten years ago, when only the DM Typ C would be available, there was nothing to dream about. And BTW: don't forget about which prices we are talking about. I read in Peter Vans book something about 1.5 Mio. Euros for a C&G AU replica.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by T54

What's that? Do you know more T543? Looks like a Cisitalia proto-prototype?

[D-Type]

Based on the nose I would guess at the Sacha-Gordine.

[Holger Merten]

I think, you're right, have a look in this thread of the spanish forum.

[René de Boer]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
As you, everybody could dream about a race between AU and MB.

Admittedly, it wasn't a race, but I was lucky enough to attend the meeting for the 10th anniversary of the Mercedes-Benz Classic Center in Stuttgart last May, where they had an event entitled "Duelle unter Freunde" (Duels among friends) where, indeed, a MB W196 was up against an AU Typ C. Jochen Mass drove the MB, Martin Tomczyk drove the AU and watching them, even on the streets of a dull industrial zone in Stuttgart was just awesome! Tomczyk really pulled off a great show, even getting the car sideways on the narrow street.

The story about the Donington event can be found in Peter Vann's book "New silver": none of Audi's works-drivers were available to drive the cars that weekend because of clashing other commitments, so they had Thomas Frank, director of Audi Tradition, and an engineer driving the two cars. Usually, they have indeed the likes of Pirro and Biela driving.

[Brun]

René,

That sucks, I would've love to see that :-( I never read any announcement of that on the Audi press site...

[René de Boer]

Brun,

Actually, it was quite a well-kept secret, but still, 40,000 people came to watch... The Stuttgart police hadn't expected a crowd like that either, traffic was a disaster! I only found out about the event in a small brochure I had picked up from the Mercedes-stand at the "Techno Classica" in Essen, and, IIRC, there was a brief announcement in one of the German comics, I think Motor Klassik. The rest of the event was good as well, with Hans Hermann driving a Porsche 906 and also MB Group C-cars, CLK-GTR, 300 SL and SLR, loads of old Kompressor-cars etc. And an Ur-quattro and a sport quattro from Audi's factory collection prominently displayed. (BTW, this sport quattro will feature in a story written by yours truly in next month's edition of Dutch magazine "Onschatbare Klassieker" - I did a highly enjoyable test drive in the Ingolstadt region).

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by dbw
why do i have the feeling that the porsche guys...given the challange ...wouldn't tart that baby up,add some pop and a well known hotshoe,and drive the sh*t out of it......


[i'm sure a zillion boxster owners would be hanging on the fence on one side of the track and an equal number of tt guys on the other...most likely the mb owners would be in a tent somewhere sipping a cool drink...but hey! it's advertising...]

Mercedes allow their genuine cars to be driven how they should be - a friend found the old tyres were spinning in top gear at something over 150 mph when he track tested a pre-war Mercedes.
And they occasionally get people like John Surtees to demo them quickly at race meetings.

Audi have brand new Auto-Union replicas and they just let them potter around. (Of course if they were TTs you would understand why, no one wants to have an accident if avoidable).

A friend who has driven one of the V-16 Auto Union replicas, tells me the engine does not run well, the brakes are not good and even at the limited speeds it was capable of, he felt that the handling was not right either.

So the Auto Union replicas are probably not well sorted, but that is only a matter of throwing some more money at them (but it might explain why the Wanderer replicas were not made in the UK).

So given they are new what damage does Audi imagine it would cause (to their image presumably) if some cars, made in England, to look like those from an old company that no longer exists breaks down?

Audi's attitiude to motorsport seems to be to only enter events where they totally outclass the opposition, unlike Mercedes who are happy to put their name on an engine in a car that might only show mid-field potential. So maybe they are worried that someone would beat them?

Mercedes have to be applauded at letting us see such genuine original cars driven more or less how they should (I must admit to being very disappointed to see how slow the W154 was driven around the ring in the latest Motorfilm Quarterly - if they did it now it would be much quicker, I guess the problem was finding a fast enough camera car).

Audi should be reprimanded for such a pathetic effort, especially with brand new cars that should not need pussyfooting around in. (Of course one reason for their slow demo at Donington was that they had just lost the guy who was due to demo them).

Finally................
[maybe the reason the mb owner is in the tent having a drink is that he does not bother about advertising bs, he used judgment and bought a car that handles and got to the bar first]

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by René de Boer
Brun,

(... ) of the German comics, I think Motor Klassik. (... )

wonderful.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by T54

Holger, as D-Type says, it's the Sacha-Gordine: at least in design terms it can be said to be related to the Cisitalia, in as much as it came from the pen of an engineer called Vigna, who had studied at the Porsche Bureau. As it never raced, it presumably remains as "unfulfilled potential" - but we'll probably never know, since the cars are - AFAIK - lost, presumed destroyed.

[Holger Merten]

Thanks Vitesse2 for the answer, never heard about the car. But interesting to know that the spirit of the AU is in that car.

[T54]

Yes but....

The Sacha Gordine, wearing the name of its financier/movie director, was more advanced in its design, concept, size and engineering than the Cisitalia. Its little supercharged V8 was a jewel. Oh what could have been... if Gordine had not run out of Francs.
Another attempt was the beautiful but misunderstood Rounds Rocket Indianapolis car in 1949. The money was there but not the suspension technology.
It will take John Cooper and Jack Brabham to make it come real in 1959 after some serious bell-ringing in 1958.
T54

[dbw]

hmmm..the cisitalia 360....mid-engined..ifs..irs.. four-cam boxer motor...it seems porsche sort of ran with that concept to some success....;)


and if we must bring up the rounds rocket....we gotta give harry miller his due for the gulf-millers[at least the suspension would work]

[aldo]

It's in Italian, yet if you go to www.aisastoryauto.it , click on Monografie and open No. 26, you'll find a complete story of Cisitalia, including the 360, by the best marque historian, Mr. Nino Balestra.

About MB (aka DaimlerChrysler) being so good at preserving, displaying, "racing" their historic racing cars, I'd be less enthusiastic than some other TNF fellows.
They did and are doing a beautiful business, yet, please, go to Stuttgart and have a look at what has been done to the W25R, the Avus streamliner, the W165 Tripoli racer, the T-80. And have a careful look at the cars they display in events, starting from the "722 Mille Miglia Stirling Moss winning 300SLR" to the recreation of the streamlined W196.

We surely have to thank both Audi and MB zillion of times for what they are showing, but, please, let's forget words like "original" "racing car" "historical accuracy". Of course, they do that stuff for marketing and promotion purposes, what else?

[dolomite]

Nearly 25 years ago, this man showed how it should be done.....

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by aldo


We surely have to thank both Audi and MB zillion of times for what they are showing, but, please, let's forget words like "original" "racing car" "historical accuracy". Of course, they do that stuff for marketing and promotion purposes, what else?

I fully agree with that. While working for Audi I got the another point of view: If you have to run these cars of a company, you will be careful. It was always another feeling sitting in my own 30 years old Audi 100 Coupé S or having a trip with a 64 years old Horch 930 S (two examples of this prototype still exist), or you enter the best of an 65 years old Audi 920 Cabriolet. Those cars were part of the company. But if you enter your own car, opening your sunroof, your blonde daughter is choosing a tape ("Why didn't you exchange this old radio/tape against that one we sold with our old Audi A6 Avant and the CD player? Now we have a Radio/CD in our new Audi, but you couldn't exchange it!)

When the engine runs everything is going away. My daughter likes the sound of OUR car, she's proude, as well as I am about her, and my wife is smiling, when we leave the house, that we could share the same moments of happiness.

BTW: There was no real happiness driving an Audi/Horch/Wanderer/NSU, it was just interesting. And countable, I drove some interesting cars on my personal list. So what.?!

[Jonas]

Originally posted by aldo
go to Stuttgart and have a look at what has been done to the W25R, the Avus streamliner, the W165 Tripoli racer, the T-80.

What has been done to these cars?

Dolomite, I just love the picture of the W125 with opposite locks!! You're dead right, that's the way they were built to be driven!

My father keeps telling me about the time he saw Fangio in a W196 at a Nürburgring historic event back in 1986. Apparently Fangio didn't want to hear anything about keeping the revs low. He was out in his old racing car and he drove it the way it was supposed to be driven. No fauled plugs here!

Nothing like the poor show put up by David Coulthard in the W196 at Goodwood a few years ago

[roger_valentine]

The colour photo of the Autoar shocked me slightly. Obvious, really, but it had just never occured to me that the car would be painted in Argentinian colours.

Which got me thinking - Why is the Donington car silver? Surely this isn't yet another example of Tom Wheatcroft buying a box of bits believing it to be an Auto Union! I have never seen the Stuttgart car, but I strongly suspect that this might be silver too. Why? This isn't a Porsche 360, its a Cisitalia. Why isn't it red?

And on the subject of colours, did the Sacha-Gordine ever get as far as being painted? Hard to tell on the b/w photos. There is a Geo Ham painting of the car in blue, but as the painting shows the S-G racing, I think we must assume that Geo used a certain amount of artistic licence!

[aldo]

About the 360 Cisitalia in Argentinian colors, I confirm that the only color photos I've seen show the car in those colors. It was so finished alreday in Italy, as there is a promotional photo of Nuvolari standing in front of the blue-yellow car. As far as I know, the car has never been red.

About antique racers at the MB Museum.
The aluminum body of the 1937 Avus Streamliner was getting too thin and delicate: they covered it on the outside with fiberglass tissue, then generously layered resin on it and finally painted it using the damned acrilic glossy paint. In short: the body is a bloody block of resin. Can we call such an infamy, either preservation or restoration?
The W25R body has been covered with two-component hard-rock plaster to make it sturdier, flush and smooth. The finish on the bottom tray and around the openings/cuts is awful. The paint is as above. We have here another block of plaster, forever impossible to peel off from the aluminum body without destroying it.
The W165 has been heavily restored using bits from various engines, rebuilding many sections of the body and finally painting it with the usual acrilic varnish. If we had to look at historical accuracy, it'd be hard to say which car number is that: they say it's Lang's.
The T-80 body has been hanged to the wall in a position making it nearly impossible to see it all. It has been left untouched, at least until last Summer, with all the dips and asymmetries of the original Al body. They have in storage the frame with transmission and cockpit: it's a real treasure, worth to be shown, much more valuable than other stuff, hanged body included. It has been displayed years ago at Retromobile Paris: what a vision! Let's hope that they'll find space for it in the new Museum.

[Jonas]

Aldo, Yes I fully agree with you that this is indeed tragic..
But:
I've only seen one pre-war GP M-B in reality. That was a W125 that was run at Nürburgring along with Audis V16 'Bergrennwagen' and the 2 Karassik cars back in '97. What struck me at the time was the beautiful condition of the Merc (especially in comparison to the gleaming A-U's..)! It had of course been restored at some point but had definitely been used a lot after that. It looked genuine! Absolutely beautiful!

I have thought to myself so many times; what wouldn't I have given to have a stroll around in the M-B warehouses 'behind the scenes' to have a look at everything they must have in storage!

[dretceterini]

A toy collector in Los Angeles by the name of Don Veta has a large scale promotional model (sand cast?) about 1/10th scale of the 360 in red that came in a wooden box built specially for the model.. I belive it was actually made by Piaggio, the scooter company.

[dmj]

And in Gmünd Porsche museum there is a wooden mould for Cisitalia's body, as well as one for 356.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Brun
And if that engineer had been Dutch, he would tell his boss to never again set foot within a 2 mile radius of that car

You meet the boss and the engineer in the Audi Lounge in October. We talked to both of them.

But the reason, I bring up this thread again are these questions in this thread?

How many Cisitalias were built? And how many Cistitlia still exist?

And

How many Cistitlia still exist?

Did we anser them correct. I only know one car in the Porsche collection. Today I found an article from 1998 abbout a story about the Cisitalia in my magazine archiv and afterwards I searched TNF about the Cisitalia story. But not with clear results about this fascinating car.

[Tim Murray]

From Motor Racing Mavericks by Doug Nye:

. . . in the late fifties Porsche sports car driver and team manager Huschke von Hanstein found the car in the Autoar garage, while in Buenos Aires for a 1,000 km endurance race.

It was in a sorry state, having been under deep flood waters for some time the previous winter. Ferry Porsche managed to acquire the rotting remains in 1959 and shipped them back to Germany, where the Cisitalia-Porsche 360 was completely rebuilt and today occupies a proud position in the company's car collection.

Curiously enough, the uncompleted second car was discovered somewhere in Switzerland in about 1970 by some Italian enthusiasts, and dealer Corrado Cupellini sold it to Tom Wheatcroft in Britain for the public Donington Collection of Single-Seater Racing Cars.

It arrived as a collection of rusty parts, some of them unmachined castings, but with a complete chassis frame and two transmission sets. It was completed with a replica bodyshell in the Wheatcroft workshops and today has pride of place among the collection's unique display of seven four-wheel drive Grand Prix cars.

Written thirty years ago, but still substantially correct, I believe.

[Holger Merten]

Huschke von Hanstein, I think he was not always the smart gentleman, he would liked to be.Therefor the story perhaps was a little bit different. Espacially, I read some other names discovering the car in south america.


And the second car was from switzerland?

Ha, AFAIK and see daily, here are so many old cars used for daily trips (my neighbour uses two RR), as well as old cars are in switzerland cause in switzerland everything is a secret. Nobody askes, Hey what a car, and so exepensive or special or something like that. Pssst, but everybody knows.;)



And on one hand the people in switzerland like powerful new cars and on the other hand, they own and collect old special cars, like Alvis, Delahaye, 300SL; Audi Sport quattros Ferrari, Maserati (here are two Maserati dealers arround the corner, yes two! And they sell Maserati, exclusivly) and so on.

[Tim Murray]

Sorry, Holger, I don't think I expressed myself very well. The facts that I believe to be substantially correct are that there is one complete Cisitalia in the Porsche museum, and one almost complete car at Donington. The rest, as you say, is possibly open to question.

[Holger Merten]

Sorry Tim for misinterpretating you. Looks to me, as if everything would be clear now, and I'm the only person, who doesn't know.

Okay here we go.

Jeroem, Richard, will scan that article and mail it to you.

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Sorry Tim for misomterpretating you. Looks to, as everything would be clear, and I'm the only person, who doesn't know.

Absolutely no way, Holger. I'm the one who didn't word his post properly, and your interpretation of it was entirely justified. I must learn to express myself better.

[Doug Nye]

Holger - you ask how many Cisitalias exist? Presumably you mean only the Cisitalia-Porsche 360s? Definitely the two - the one which was photographed with Nuvolari, later shipped near complete to Buenos Aires and then cobbled together to running order by Autoar in the 1950s - and then the second chassis frame plus many related components which was noted in the Porsche Buro inventory of the Cisitalia works in the 1940s, and which survived subsequently to be sold to Wheatie for the Donington Collection, circa 1970-71. I suspect other components also survived but nowhere near enough to be described as "a third car".

The Autoar machine which set a "South American land speed record" is that preserved today in the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart.

Many examples of other Cisitalia models also survive - the best of which I would highly commend as being worthy of close study, headed by the wonderful Savonuzzi aerodynamic Coupes or Berlinettas.

DCN

[Holger Merten]

Thanks, Doug, this would be an answer on to my question about this interesting project. By the moment (and this would be a nice post for the "your 2004 projects thread) I'm doing investigations in the early Porsche days.

What was the situation:
Not in Stuttgart, but in jail. Safe in Austria, but no money. No boss, but a son. Many ideas, who should pay them. After building and presenting the early 356 bodies the money came from switzerland. That makes it always interesting for me, cause it's more or less easy to do "such private " investigations in switzerland.

Anyway, by the moment, I'm behind the second oldest Porsche, a 356 with Beuteler body, which is also the oldest Porsche owned in private hands. This 356 project, which was based on the Typ 64 of 1939 (interesting for other investigations) did pass the more interesting 360-project in my investigations.

So, that were funny days in Gmünd.... and Eberan von Eberhorst arrived and gave both projects (356 and 360) a push. Wow.