48 replies to this topic

[chrisj]

For me, the start of the 1979 season with the Ligiers upfront was magic. Just recently I watched some footage from that year and it brought it all back. The Ligier JS11 was a beautiful car -- I thought it looked exactly like how a French GP car should be. For as long as it lasted, Laffite and Depailler were really evenly matched. I wonder what you all think how the final result would have been if Patrick had finished the year. I remember reading that Depailler was much better technically and in testing, but Jacques was more "natural". True?

[Hieronymus]

A very close call between these two drivers. Laffite was not happy with the fact that there was no team orders within the team and felt that this lead to the two of them racing each other. Later in the year, when Depa was sidelined after the hang gliding accident, Laffite was the first to admit that Depailler's technical abilities were bitterly missed.

Both these drivers had a formidable record in the lower formulas. Patrick was French F3 champion in 1971 and European F2 champion in 1974. In a good car he could win any race - the same for Laffite. Patrick was very good in the rain and on street circuits.

For sheer determination and dedication I would pick Depa. He was a good team player and always played within the rules.

[tyrrellp34]

I wonder why the Ligier Team drop down after Depailler's hanggliding accident. Before they have been really fast, after Monaco Ligier wasn't a strong team anymore.

But there are other facts too, which make this happened

[David Hyland]

IIRC, Ligier were dominant for the first couple of races of the season, then suddenly they were off the pace. ISTR a quote (from Laffite I think) that the team didn't know why they were so slow all of a sudden. To which he added "But then again, we didn't know why we were so fast, either!"

David.

[ensign14]

There was a story that they had found a sweet spot, and Ducarouge (?) or someone had the settings written down literally on the back of a fag packet, which then got lost...I sincerely hope that that is true...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ensign14
There was a story that they had found a sweet spot, and Ducarouge (?) or someone had the settings written down literally on the back of a fag packet, which then got lost...I sincerely hope that that is true...

I heard it was Guy Ligier himself ;)

Much as I'd like to believe that one (especially given Ligier's extensive French Government, oops, tobacco sponsorship) I think it can also be at least partly put down to a typical Ligier problem - they always seemed to do less testing than the other big teams, so they'd come out with a nice piece of kit at the start of the season that generally failed to improve for the rest of the year.

Sauber's the same, except they never quite aspired as high as Ligier.

pete

[Macca]

No doubt someone will relate chapter and verse, but I read somewhere from an insider that the original venturi sidepods were very stiff, but they replaced them later in the season with 'productionised' versions that weren't.

Paul

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by ensign14
There was a story that they had found a sweet spot, and Ducarouge (?) or someone had the settings written down literally on the back of a fag packet, which then got lost...I sincerely hope that that is true...

A packet of GITANES I presume...?

Depailler was amazed when he drove the car for the first time in practice. According to him, he had never driven a car that "was just perfect". Patrick had very much said the same of his March 742 in 1974. He always liked to fiddle with his racing car's set-up, so his comment was probably a most honest one.

Listened to an old interview with François Guiter (from ELF), that I have. François said that either Patrick or Jacques could have become champion in 1979...if there was definate team orders or a number one driver appointed. The veteran journalist-author, Adriano Cimarosti, reckoned that Depa would have been the champ in '79.

[AndreasF1]

Has anybody ever seen the onboard video footage from Depailler at Long Beach in 78 and the rainsoaked Canada Qual of the same year? It was on lap of the Gods a few years ago. I have never seen a driver more commited behind the wheel than him. Beautiful slides and an awesome dispaly of car control. Depailler was a maniac and knew absolutley no fear, very simular to GV in his approach to racing. A shame that he had to leave us so early.

[Hieronymus]

Yes, the Canadian effort is quite spectacular. Patrick had very good car control - something he probably learn from his time as rally driver for Alpine. I guess few people know that Depailler won the Rallye Mônts Dome in an Alpine in 1971. Apart from this he also had a class victory in the Criterium des Cevennes in the late '60's.

I also have on video Depailler in the six-wheel Tyrrell at Kyalami and also the Tyrrell 008 in 1978, also at Kyalami. The videoa of him driving flat out at Monaco in the six-wheeler (without bodywork) is just as phenemonal. I believe he went out at about 06h00 to capture these video footage.

[AndreasF1]

I would be very intersted in seeing these videos. Do you have them in digital format or on VHS? Maybe you could post them if you had them digitaly, that be awesome.

[Hieronymus]

AndreasF1

The easiest way to get them is to go to the websitehttp://www.project34.co.uk
Check it out under "videos". Several other good clips are shown.

[AndreasF1]

Thank you very much !

[Todd]

In the May 1979 issue of Car and Driver, in an article titled "The March de Triomphe," Larry Griffin wrote:

The all new team of Ligier JS11 wing cars driven by Jacques Laffite and Patrick Depailler has knocked the championship aspirations of every other Grand Prix team into a cocked hat. Laffite blistered the record book in both Argentina and Brazil, setting new lap and race records while winning both races outright. Depailler, who folllowed him home second in Brazil, is ecstatic about the JS11s: "Incredible, the car's response. One slight adjustment and you can feel it. It's all very positive. I didn't have to do much adjusting; the car was born adjusted!"
Confidence in the Ligier camp was running so high upon arrival at Brazil's bumpy, difficult Interlagos circuit that irrepressible team manager Gerard Ducarourge was already perfecting a Muhammad Ali delivery: "We will blow everbody off, guaranteed." Whereupon Laffite went out and shattered James Hunt's two-year-old lap record by more than seven seconds. Eleven laps in the JS11 on Friday got Laffite the pole, and he spent the rest of the afternoon wandering the pit lane, casually checking the watches running to no avail on the rest of the field.

The article went on to discuss many of the other teams' attempts at copying the Lotus 79 and their varying levels of promise. It ended with the prognostication that only the expected Lotus 80 seemed likely to challenge the JS11. No mention was made of the Ferrari team. I'd still like to know how Ligier managed to muck it up quite so badly.

[MCS]

Originally posted by Todd
...only the expected Lotus 80 seemed likely to challenge the JS11. No mention was made of the Ferrari team. I'd still like to know how Ligier managed to muck it up quite so badly...

I've often wondered about this.

I well remember my delight at the Ligier performances in those first two races in 1979 and then my subsequent confusion thereafter when, quite simply, they failed to fulfil that extraordinary promise.

Much has been written about this of course, but has anybody ever dared suggest that it was a fluke in the first place that the JS11 was so quick in Argentina and Brazil ???

[Kekefan]

Originally posted by Macca
No doubt someone will relate chapter and verse, but I read somewhere from an insider that the original venturi sidepods were very stiff, but they replaced them later in the season with 'productionised' versions that weren't.

Paul

That's the version I also read in french magazines. Guy Ligier wanted to save some money. When the team realized that's where their problems came from, the seasons was almost finished.

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by MCS


I've often wondered about this.

I well remember my delight at the Ligier performances in those first two races in 1979 and then my subsequent confusion thereafter when, quite simply, they failed to fulfil that extraordinary promise.

Much has been written about this of course, but has anybody ever dared suggest that it was a fluke in the first place that the JS11 was so quick in Argentina and Brazil ???

I think it was a matter of being ready at the begin of the season with their destined new 1979 cars while others who had such cars were not, or had lesser cars (Tyrrell, Brabham etc) or had to do with older cars initially.
Renault entered their wing car after the first three races, the Ferrari T4 debuted in the third race and Williams the FW07 since the fifth race. And those were the only other cars winning races that year.
I also heard about the lost pack of cigarettes with the important details. Maybe some internal team rivalry too, up until Depailler fell away that is and the team too much within turmoil because of that. Anyway, the momentum well and truly lost, I think due to a combination of all these facts.

But don't forget that it had happened before that a car was very quick in the opening races of the year and then disappear from the scene. Wat about Jean Pierre Jarier in the Shadow in early 1975. It was that the car retired in both opening races but he was near unstoppable while he lasted.


About Ligier, I don't have much with them but if there was a decent, detailed comprehensive book about their F1 history out for sale, (IN ENGLISH!!!) I would buy it instantly. It is one of those teams
that begs for having its team history documentated rightfully and properly but also accessable to those who can't read French.

Henri

[FLB]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
About Ligier, I don't have much with them but if there was a decent, detailed comprehensive book about their F1 history out for sale, (IN ENGLISH!!!) I would buy it instantly. It is one of those teams
that begs for having its team history documentated rightfully and properly but also accessable to those who can't read French.

Henri

Hey, I thought you fell in love with the Novi by reading Michel Vaillant comics!


I completely agree about the Ligier book idea. The time to do it is NOW, as most of the players are still alive and not getting any younger. Guy Ligier isn't directly involved, but last month Auto Hebdo had a picture of him attending a test of the new JS49-Honda, a sportscar aimed at club racing. It was driven in the test by Jonathan Cochet. Phillipe Ligier is behind the project in an effort to keep his father's marque alive.


M. Ligier looked well and seemed to be thoroughly enjoying himself

[Ralliart]

Couple things spring to mind. James Hunt, who went testing with Wolf AFTER Monaco '79, wanted Peter Warr to let him loose to take DePailler's spot with the accident but Warr said he'd sue him if he did. That would have been interesting had it happened. Ickx, then, who I don't believe had ever raced a ground effects car before, was really in at the deep end, not to mention his lack of recent F1 experience. No, Lotus didn't win in '79 but if one is talking about the beginning of the season, maybe Ferrari, the eventual constructors champ, wasn't mentioned, but what about the defending constructors, Lotus? I remember that great start Ligier had and, as several have expressed, was wondering why the abrupt fall-off? McLaren was going great in '76, moved something two inches on the car and immediately it was penthouse to outhouse until they discovered it. Maybe the same thing happened with Ligier, and they didn't catch it. Or maybe it was the sidepods and the cost-cutting. I think it was in the Lotus 78 & 79 book that it was concluded that Lotus gave up the plot to Williams in '79 who had a very stiff chassis (unlike the Lotus 79), so maybe Ligier's superiority was due to...I don't know but interesting to speculate. I had never heard that story about the smokes pack.

[philippe charuest]

the stiffness of the ligier frame was good ,typical ducarouge stuff .the problem was aerodymical . it was the early days of ground effect . downforce generate by the venturi/ diffuser was doubling every 6 months . from 500kg in 78 to 2000kg in 1980. the ligier was a huge step ahead of the lotus 79 but 6 months later it was already out of date

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by FLB

Hey, I thought you fell in love with the Novi by reading Michel Vaillant comics!


I completely agree about the Ligier book idea. The time to do it is NOW, as most of the players are still alive and not getting any younger. Guy Ligier isn't directly involved, but last month Auto Hebdo had a picture of him attending a test of the new JS49-Honda, a sportscar aimed at club racing. It was driven in the test by Jonathan Cochet. Phillipe Ligier is behind the project in an effort to keep his father's marque alive.


M. Ligier looked well and seemed to be thoroughly enjoying himself

Michel Vailliant was available in Dutch versions for a long, long time already.
Fortunately.
You would be surprised to know how many Dutch racing fans became so because of those comics.

Henri

[Arjan de Roos]

Indeed !! Ave'm all.

[Mallory Dan]

Agreed re a Ligier book, it would, if done properly and with decent insights from those in the know, be a brilliant read.

[caneparo]

according to what Ing. Forghieri wrote on autosprint much of the Ligier advantage was due to the kind of skirts they were using

[Doug Nye]

From what I recall at the time, Philippe's post above is probably the most relevant to Ligier's true advantage right at the start of 1979. I heard from several of the rival designers later that season that Ducarouge had really turned them over by recognising very early on just how rigid a chassis needed to be to withstand the downloads of ground-effect aerodynamics. Those JS11 chassis were incredibly robustly built - 'agricultural' was the word used - and in concert with the rigid sidepods and underfloors already mentioned they had the distinct advantage they demonstrated so well. The rival British teams - and Ferrari - recognised Ligier's advantage in those initial South American races and worked like hell to stiffen-up their own designs. It worked.

DCN

[f1steveuk]

I seem to remember reading in GPI, complete with grainy black and white picture, that Ligier had a method of adjusting the venturi, and once it was removed (under pressure) their form dropped off.

[Mohican]

Nobody here has mentioned that Ligier-Gitanes was again a very competitive team in 1980, with Laffite and Pironi as drivers. So much so that this lead to the famous Williams-vs-the-French situation that year, as both French teams (Ligier and Renault) were very competitive whereas Ferrari of course faded badly after winning the championship in 1979.

Ligier were still competitive in 1981 as Ligier-Talbot running an ex-Matra V12; Laffite finished 4th in the championship IIRC, and won as late in the season as in Canada (which was an autumn race back then). It was only in 1982 that things started going downhill, and then of course Laffite left for Williams in 1983.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Mohican
Ligier were still competitive in 1981 as Ligier-Talbot running an ex-Matra V12; Laffite finished 4th in the championship IIRC, and won as late in the season as in Canada (which was an autumn race back then). It was only in 1982 that things started going downhill, and then of course Laffite left for Williams in 1983.

Laffite finished 4th in the title but did any of his team-mates score points? Jabouille, Jarier and Tambay IIRC. None of them slouches (although Jabouille was still recovering from his accident). I get the feeling that Laffite was competitive rather than Ligier - and he could have won the title at the last race.

Given the somewhat blatant illegality of the Brabham at the start of the season, when Piquet picked up crucial points over the other drivers, I think there's a case to be made that Jacques deserved the title more than anyone that year. (Him or Gilles.) Yet he's somewhat overlooked in the Jones-Reutemann-Piquet triangle.

[Mohican]

So that makes 5 drivers with a reasonable claim on the title in 1981; Piquet, Reutemann, Jones, Laffite and Villeneuve.

In 1982 there was any number of people who could have won, and then in 1983 we had Piquet, Prost and Arnoux going into the final races with a chance of winning.

All this makes today'äs tepid situation look even more boring - and on top of that Ferrari won the constructors championship in both 1982 and 1983, a fact most tend to forget.

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by Mohican
So that makes 5 drivers with a reasonable claim on the title in 1981; Piquet, Reutemann, Jones, Laffite and Villeneuve.

Plus a tiny Frenchperson with curly hair and a bent nose.

That makes 6.

At least 3 more deserving than the guy that won it..

[cosworth bdg]

The best part about the 70/early80s was just about all teams had the same engine or variant.................

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
The best part about the 70/early80s was just about all teams had the same engine or variant.................

For me that was the worst, at least of the mid-seventies. So glad that turbos and the Alfa V12s arrived!

[John B]

IIRC Ligier got off to a terrible start in 1981, it wasn't until Monaco that they were competitive, then Laffite along with Renault/Prost were the strong cars in the second half. A real killer was Zaandvoort, when Carlos made a bad overtaking attempt and took them both out, giving lots of points to Piquet. JL did account for all the team's points that year.....the 1981 model also managed a good second place at Detroit with Cheever in 1982.

I think Ligier and Renault were helped a bit by early dominators Williams and Brabham changing to Goodyear tires in mid-season, which cost them at a number of tracks.

Those 3 Ligiers were among my favorite GP cars from that era.

[Mohican]

The 1983 Ligier, driven by Jarier and Boesel, was also an interesting car - if much less successful.

[Puntataco]

Just to add something more to this discussion...Speaking with Laffite last year, he mentioned that the JS11 was the best car he ever drover and he mentioned that they had some issues with "the wing under the car" saying it wasn't stiff enough, it was moving and that they solved it again in Monza...Does anyone knows anything more?
I fully agree, having an english book on the Ligier story would be really amazing!
best regards

[Formula Once]

Just to add something more to this discussion...Speaking with Laffite last year, he mentioned that the JS11 was the best car he ever drover and he mentioned that they had some issues with "the wing under the car" saying it wasn't stiff enough, it was moving and that they solved it again in Monza...Does anyone knows anything more?
I fully agree, having an english book on the Ligier story would be really amazing!
best regards

I think it has been discussed here before, but here's what Laffite told me: the wing shaped floors eventually started to flex under stress, which they didn't know for a long time. They checked the car in the windtunnel but the stress on the car there was not as big as on track, which is why it took them quite a while to find out the problem.

[Lutz G]

I think it has been discussed here before, but here's what Laffite told me: the wing shaped floors eventually started to flex under stress, which they didn't know for a long time. They checked the car in the windtunnel but the stress on the car there was not as big as on track, which is why it took them quite a while to find out the problem.

If my memory serves me well they changed the manufactor/material (?) of the sidepods after a few races - so it flexed.

Lutz

[Tim Murray]

There was some discussion about the Ligier problems in 1979 in this thread:

Why didn't Lotus win a race in 1979?

[Wirra]

Amazing grip and tyre distortion. Zandvoort 1979.


Laffite and Ickx at Hockenheim

Edited by Wirra, 04 July 2011 - 10:51.

[Hamish Robson]

At the Festival this weekend (a JS11/15):



Just after I took this photograph at around 6.45pm Peter Windsor and Nigel Roebuck walked past deep in conversation, looked at it and agreed with each other that it was a beautiful racing car.

[f1steveuk]

At the Festival this weekend (a JS11/15):



Just after I took this photograph at around 6.45pm Peter Windsor and Nigel Roebuck walked past deep in conversation, looked at it and agreed with each other that it was a beautiful racing car.

Not being a total Ligier "freak", is that a JS11/12 rather than a JS10?

Beautiful car, but yet again the restoration let down by incorrect colours/lettering/lettering styles/sizes etc, why does that seem to happen so much?

Still, I'd go without the left one for a go in it!

[Marc Sproule]

Laffite..Montreal '79

http://www.flickr.co...157623186790747

[TennisUK]

Those of a certain age may also remember the JS11 in robot form in the 1980s cartoon series 'Transformers'. Called Mirage, the character was complete with Cosworth V8 and a today slightly unfathomable (given what happened to Marlboro and Ferrari last year) pastiche tobacco name and logo:

[Rob]

Not being a total Ligier "freak", is that a JS11/12 rather than a JS10?

Was there a JS10?

[RA Historian]

Was there a JS10?

I don't think so, but of course could be wrong. The sports racing Ligiers had even numbers, while the Formula cars had odd. To the best of my knowledge, there was no JS-11/12. The 1979 car was a JS-11, while the 1980 car was a JS-11/15, keeping the odd numbering and avoiding the number 13.

The car pictured appears to have the JS-11 bodywork just aft of the roll bar, as the JS-11/15 had a more rounded piece there. Bit it has Pironi's name on the cockpit, and he drove in 1980, which was with the JS-11/15. Confusing?

Tom

[wepmob2000]

If my references are correct, its mostly spot-on for a 1980 JS11/15 up until the French GP of that year, when the bodywork behind the roll-bar was changed to the rounded style. Paintwork and livery are accurate too for a car from that period although if you wanted to nit-pick theres one minor omission.

The only problem is the side-pod side profile doesn't match any pictures I've seen of the early season JS11/15, which had a different profile entirely (doesn't mean it didn't happen though - apparently the underbody wing profiles were changed on a race by race basis).

Its sad but I've done some small research on these cars as its a pet model-project of mine (hopefully starting in the not too distant future), and the later JS11/15 is my favoured subject - surely one of the best looking F1 cars ever?

In reply to TennisUK, I am of that certain age and the only Transformer toy I've kept is that very 'Mirage' model - certainly more to do with the car than the robot!

Edited by wepmob2000, 03 August 2011 - 02:00.

[arttidesco]

Butterfly World just outside St Albans is not a place I'd normally expect to play spot the Ligier JS11 ....



but despite a lack of macro lens on my mobile I hope you will agree I won

[Arjan de Roos]

I don't think so, but of course could be wrong. The sports racing Ligiers had even numbers, while the Formula cars had odd. To the best of my knowledge, there was no JS-11/12. The 1979 car was a JS-11, while the 1980 car was a JS-11/15, keeping the odd numbering and avoiding the number 13.

The car pictured appears to have the JS-11 bodywork just aft of the roll bar, as the JS-11/15 had a more rounded piece there. Bit it has Pironi's name on the cockpit, and he drove in 1980, which was with the JS-11/15. Confusing?

Tom

Ligier raced at Le Mans mostly with the JS2. But also with a JS 1 and the JS3 Cosworth sportscar.

In F1 Ligier raced with the JS5 up to 43, all uneven as said, skipping 13. This car shown could have been it, but its a JS11/15.
Prost raced the JS45 in 1997 before moving to his own numerals.

The JS47 was the 2004 F3 car made when Ligier acquired Martini.

The J49 (2008) was the first modern sports car Ligier made, followed by the JS51 in 2009.
The JS53 is their last development and was foreseen to hit the track in 2011.

The famed Ligier microcars were born early eighties with the JS4 and later the JS6. Most microcars received no JS-code but names like Nova, Ambra or X-Too Max. There was one JS-162!

[RA Historian]

Thanks for the clarification, Arjan!

Tom