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6 wheel f1 car, 2 front 4 at the rear


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#1 paulogman

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 12:02

i am sure i have seen a pic of such a car, in this month's f1 mag williams propose an ultimate f1 car with 4 rear wheels.

i can't remember who built the original, can someone help me out?

thanks beforehand

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 12:11

The March 2-4-0 is probably what you're thinking of ....

http://forums.atlasf...light=March 240
http://forums.atlasf...light=March 240
http://forums.atlasf...light=March 240
http://forums.atlasf...light=March 240

#3 Marcel Visbeen

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 12:32

I will have to do some digging up, but I'm sure Williams actually build a six-wheeler with four rear wheels. IIRC it was based on the FW07B and originally intended for the 1982 season.

#4 Marcel Visbeen

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 12:37

Found a picture of Keke Rosberg testing the Williams at Le Castellet at the end of 1981. I'm not able to post it, but if you want it I can e-mail a scan. Or maybe someone else can post the picture for me.

#5 dolomite

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 12:49

Just look at those previous threads listed by Vitesse2. You'll find links to several pictures there.

#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 12:52

Originally posted by Marcel Visbeen
I will have to do some digging up, but I'm sure Williams actually build a six-wheeler with four rear wheels. IIRC it was based on the FW07B and originally intended for the 1982 season.


Unfortunately for Williams, the FIA banned 6-wheelers before it could race. The 240 (or 240s, as the back end might have been hitched to more than one tub) does at least have a competition history on the hills.

#7 ensign14

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 13:09

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The 240 (or 240s, as the back end might have been hitched to more than one tub) does at least have a competition history on the hills.

And on Scalextric tracks. :smoking:

#8 Gary C

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 14:02

surely the Williams six-wheeler has been out at the Goodwood Festival of Speed more than once???

#9 caneparo

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 14:31

there is also a ferrari with 4 wheels on the rear. they were in line i should have the pic somewhere

Goodbye
Antonio

#10 gdecarli

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 15:38

I know following 6 wheels racing cars:
  • Isotta Fraschini with Hispano Suiza engine, driven by Alfieri and Ernesto Maserati (Brescia, 1st Italian GP, september 1921) : twin rear wheels
  • Alfa Romeo P3 tipo B (early 1930s) : twin rear wheels
  • Auto Union (mid 1930s) : twin rear wheels
  • Mercedes Benz (1939) : twin rear wheels
  • Tyrrell P34 (1975-1977) : four front wheels, twin axles (I think you all know it! :) ), the only one that raced a World championship F.1 GP
  • Ferrari 312T2 (1977) : twin rear wheels. Destroyed by Reutemann at Fiorano
  • March 240 (1977) : four rear wheels, twin axles
  • Williams FW07 (1981) : four rear wheels, twin axles
  • Williams FW08 (1982) : four rear wheels, twin axles
Anymore? I don't know...

Ciao,
Guido

(from "Conoscere la Formula 1" - vol 1 - Rizzoli, 1984 - page 6 and 196)

#11 ensign14

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 15:59

Originally posted by gdecarli
Anymore? I don't know...

The Pat Clancy Special - Bily DeVore took it to 12th at Indy in 1948, Jackie Holmes had a go in 1949. Basically a Kurtis-Offy KK500B. Later converted back to 4 wheels.

Twin rear wheels were common in British hillclimbing in the 20s and 30s - Raymond Mays in an ERA foremost.

More details at 8w here

#12 D-Type

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 19:25

Didn't Eyston's Thunderbolt LSR car have 8wheels with 4 driven - or was it six?

#13 theunions

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 19:28

Originally posted by ensign14
The Pat Clancy Special - Bily DeVore took it to 12th at Indy in 1948, Jackie Holmes had a go in 1949. Basically a Kurtis-Offy KK500B. Later converted back to 4 wheels.


And AJ Watson (who I don't believe was involved with the original) has been displaying an exact replica he finished in 2001. Anyone know what happened to the original?

#14 dolomite

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 20:40

Here is a summary of the F1 racing article, from Ten-Tenths forum.
They asked Frank Dernie to design his ultimate F1 car if today's rules were still similar to those of 1980.

Devices:

Six wheels (four at the rear)
Four wheel drive
Ground effect (sliding skirts)
CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission)
Beryllium brake callipers
Anti-lock brakes
Traction/launch control
Rear wing blended into body shape rather than separate box at the back
Active suspension
ChampCar/IndyCar style front wing,
Intelligent steering, differential and downforce (allowing the car to know where it is on the track and automatically adjust settings for the next corner)
Joystick or steering wheel

Stats (FW25 in brackets) :

Braking force - 10.0g (5.0g)
Cornering force - 5.9g (3.5g)
0-200mph - 11.2s (11.8s)

Simulated lap of Silverstone (FW25 in brackets) :

Maximum speed - 221.50mph (194.66mph)
Speed through Becketts - 164.50mph (114.42mph)
Corning force through Becketts - 5.96g (3.44g)
Overall lap time - 1m 05.888s (1m 18.998s)

#15 2F-001

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 21:01

The ''hillclimbing version'' of the March six-wheeler, mentioned above, was used in 1979 by Roy Lane, who did a certain amount of re-engineering on the car himself. I think March's original was hastily built on a 761 (?) - but I believe Lane used the six-wheel rear end on an ex-Ian Scheckter chassis from a year later. I think I read this in Chris Mason's ''Uphill Racers'', but I can't find it for the moment.
Lane was also said to have solved some transmission lubrication problems that had defeated March when they experimented with it.

Lane won two or three big events that ran in the wet inthe early part of the season, but thereafter the performance fell away (wasn't really on the pace in the dry) and it returned to four-wheel spec.

#16 mp4

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Posted 09 November 2003 - 01:23

I always thought the March 6 wheeler was presented as a publicity lark to spice things up and gain some sponsorship interest. Please correcet me if I'm wrong.
On a different, but kinda similar note, didn't either Tyrrell or Stewart try qualifying a car in Germany with rear wheels the same as the fronts? They claimed it to have some sort of aerodynamic advantage. IIRC, it was quickly abandoned...

Cheers :wave:

#17 2F-001

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Posted 09 November 2003 - 07:31

When the March first ran for the press, it's said that it was only 2WD. Thereafter, I don't imagine they had the resourses to do anything very serious with it, but the publicity must have been it's only real asset.

Didn't Robin Herd joke, in an interview, that it was their most profitable F1 car - due to the royalties on the Scalextric model?

Aside from any aerodynamic advantage, one bonus from the hillclimbing point of view must have been the relative narrowness of the rear end.

#18 Rob Ryder

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Posted 09 November 2003 - 08:02

Originally posted by mp4
On a different, but kinda similar note, didn't either Tyrrell or Stewart try qualifying a car in Germany with rear wheels the same as the fronts?


The Matra MS84 4wd run by Tyrrell in 1969 had front/rear wheels that were very similar in size. Maybe this is what are thinking about?
Rob

#19 Flying Panda

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Posted 09 November 2003 - 09:04

Originally posted by ensign14
The Pat Clancy Special - Bily DeVore took it to 12th at Indy in 1948, Jackie Holmes had a go in 1949. Basically a Kurtis-Offy KK500B. Later converted back to 4 wheels.

There was also a 6 wheel car that competeted at Indy sometime in the mid 50's, when the race was still part of the world championship.

Can't remember where i found the info on this though.

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#20 ensign14

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Posted 09 November 2003 - 11:40

Originally posted by Flying Panda
There was also a 6 wheel car that competeted at Indy sometime in the mid 50's, when the race was still part of the world championship.

Can't remember where i found the info on this though.

This is probably an erroneous source, I'm guessing because the Clancy Special DID race at Indy into the mid 50s but converted back to 4 wheels.

#21 dolomite

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Posted 09 November 2003 - 21:32

Originally posted by mp4
On a different, but kinda similar note, didn't either Tyrrell or Stewart try qualifying a car in Germany with rear wheels the same as the fronts? They claimed it to have some sort of aerodynamic advantage. IIRC, it was quickly abandoned...

Cheers :wave:


Yes, in 1996 at Hockenheim Tyrrell tried that configuration in qualifying.

#22 Cirrus

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Posted 10 November 2003 - 08:31

And Harvey Postlethwaite said that at the Hungaroring he would consider running rear tyres on the front!

A wind-up surely?

#23 27neil

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Posted 10 November 2003 - 13:58

Try this link for details on 6 Wheeled F1 cars.

http://www.f1nutter....ech/6wheels.php

#24 27neil

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Posted 10 November 2003 - 14:01

Also just found this on the Ferrari six wheeler.

http://f1rejects.cro...et/hall/beta/#1

#25 27neil

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Posted 10 November 2003 - 14:15

On a similar subject, there was talk of an 8 wheeled Ferrari 312T8 in the Italian press around the time that the six wheeled Ferrari 312T6 was built. Apparently this was just a design excercise and was never built. Does anyone have pictures of this project which were published in the late '70's, full exploded diagrams were included. If so could they possibly post these on the forum.

#26 gdecarli

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 15:35

Originally posted by Cirrus
And Harvey Postlethwaite said that at the Hungaroring he would consider running rear tyres on the front!

Ferrari made some test on its 126 C2B with rear tyres on the front at end of 1982, probably they were looking for more grip with new flat bottom rules.
I have a picture taken by Eros Andreini and published on Autosprint 2/1983 page 80 that shows this test at Misano (click to enlarge) :

Posted Image

:)
Surprised? :confused:

Well, photo is authentic, but it was only a joke by Ferrari mechanics during a long pause, not a real test! :)

Ciao,
Guido

#27 Pavel Lifintsev

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 04:52

Originally posted by gdecarli

Ferrari made some test on its 126 C2B with rear tyres on the front at end of 1982, probably they were looking for more grip with new flat bottom rules...

...and they also experimented with extra-tight front tyres at Zandvoort, probably to reduce air resistance. Bwhahaha!

Posted Image

#28 gdecarli

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 13:13

Originally posted by .ru
...and they also experimented with extra-tight front tyres at Zandvoort, probably to reduce air resistance. Bwhahaha

Interesting :)
But this experiment was not succesful: as we know, Pironi (Ferrari #28, on the left) won Dutch GP, but Tambay arrived 8th :rotfl:
Probably it would have been better to test it at Paul Ricard :rotfl: even if I can't image Signes with such tyres! :eek:

Thanks for your photo!

Ciao,
Guido

#29 panzani

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 19:41

This is twice off-topic ... neither a F1 nor 4 rear wheels ... but as longer as I know it is the first 6 wheels 'street' car.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

The small italian factory 'Covini' will show this car in the Geneve Show. They say they will produce 6-8 cars per year @ 165,000 Euros each.

#30 rdrcr

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 20:28

Originally posted by panzani
This is twice off-topic ... neither a F1 nor 4 rear wheels ... but as longer as I know it is the first 6 wheels 'street' car....


Nope - Remember the Panther? In late 1977, the Panther Company, located in Surrey England, had produced one of the most outrageous production cars ever. No doubt inspired by the Tyrrell P34.

Posted Image

The Panther 6 (6 referring to the number of wheels) was claimed to be the world's fastest car in production. As noted by various sources, Panther had produced and sold anywhere from two to no less than fifteen samples, and that was without even touching the American market. The engine was mid-mounted and had twin turbochargers. It was an 8-litre Cadillac V8 developing 600 hp and was claimed to push that six wheeled monster to 322 kph.

#31 panzani

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 22:12

Thanks Richard, I'd never heard about this impressive car!

#32 gdecarli

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 14:43

As I have just posted in Experiments, weird, bizarre, useless, etc thread, I found a project of Rondeau M579 (click to enlarge) :

Posted Image

This pic came from Autosprint #4/1978 (page 40), dated January 1978. It says that this is an advanced project, supposed to be ready to race at Le Mans on following year, 1979.
It should have had Cosworth DFX Turbo engine (2142 cc).
Do anybody know anything more about?

Ciao,
Guido

#33 chrisclay

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 15:12

there were actually four 4wheelers built

March 2-4-0 this was essentially a March 761 with two Hewland gearboxes and drive train at the rear. It never races except in UK hillclimbing with moderate success. Can't recall drive at this moment. This car was also produced as a slotcar racer by Scalextric (probably made more money in this guise)

Ferrari built and tested a 312T2 with twin rear wheels on each side (4 front wheels?). It never raced ad it had an appetite for transmissions.


Williams built two cars FW07D. Similar in concept to March. It was never reaced but tested extensively. This lead to the FW08. this was meant to race but did not as a ban came in asap when it was seen to be VERY fast. This is why the raced version of the FW08 that took Rosberg to the 82 title looked so short and stuppy.

Models are avaliable for all of the above, I have all of them.
There are two books on March that clearly show the 2-4-0, and there are a few books on Williams that show both of their cars during testing.

The Ferrari is more diffecult to obtain actual photos.

Hope this helps clear this question up.

#34 Macca

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 17:44

Did anyone say that the designation of the March 2-4-0 came from railway locomotive practise......leading wheels, driving wheels, trailing wheels......so Flying Scotsman has a wheel arrangement ooOOOo, which is 4-6-2, and the March had oOO........2-4-0.


PWM