14 replies to this topic

[Mallory Dan]

Reading about big John on another thread reminded me to post this one. 1972 was just before my time, I believe that year Surtees were pretty good in F1, and won the F2 and F5000 championships. Why did the cars/team not go onto to do better in the next season or 2. I realise money was probably a big issue, but were other factors involved ? Perhaps losing the designer, John's personality, stiffer competition in all 3 classes. Anyone throw any more light on this?

Dan

[ian senior]

John's story, which I have seen in various places, is that money was the problem. That must certainly have been a major factor. In 1974, he had a deal with a manufacturer of hi-fi that on paper promised a good budget. I think he moved the team into new premises on the strength of it. The money, or most of it, never came through, although to be fair the 1974 car wasn't much cop either. Money was getting tighter and so the 1975 car was simply a development of the unsatisfactory previous year's model. On the other hand, the cars themselves never seemed very reliable - Mike Hailwood used to say that he took a book in the cockpit with him in 1973, as he knew the car would break down so he might as well have something to read when he was left stranded in the middle of nowhere. The Scheckter-ispired accident at Silverstone in 1973, when all 3 Surtees cars were destroyed, can't have helped matters.

[petefenelon]

Was it not also the case that Surtees came out early with their deformable-structures car (end of the '72 season or start of '73) and built it to larger dimensional rules than were actually adopted - so the car was bigger than it needed to be...?

[theunions]

Originally posted by ian senior
In 1974, he had a deal with a manufacturer of hi-fi that on paper promised a good budget. I think he moved the team into new premises on the strength of it. The money, or most of it, never came through, although to be fair the 1974 car wasn't much cop either.

Is this the Bang & Olufsen #19 car that Matchbox replicated as a 1/32 scale styrene kit?

[Paul Newby]

I can't really add much more here than an observation. I thought that the F2 Surtees TS10 Hart was a very neat looking car. And Big John's favourite as well, as well as winning the F2 C'ship that year.

Its a pity that Alan Henry's biography of Surtees doesn't cover the Surtees Team in much depth at all, though he does say that the ill-fated Bang and Olufsen sponsorship debacle was a major contributor to the demise of the team.

[Ralliart]

I JUST finished re-reading "John Surtees: World Champion"...MONEY!

[Mallory Dan]

Thanks for all the above, some of which are new to me, though I also remember the Matchbox/B&O TS16 model. I've heard before of the money issue in F1, but what about the F2 cars. The TS10 was really good, why didn't the next years car, TS15, do so well? Anyone have any knowledge of this ??

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Thanks for all the above, some of which are new to me, though I also remember the Matchbox/B&O TS16 model. I've heard before of the money issue in F1, but what about the F2 cars. The TS10 was really good, why didn't the next years car, TS15, do so well? Anyone have any knowledge of this ??

Don't think there was much wrong with the TS15 that a works BMW engine wouldn't have cured. But the only way to obtain such an engine was to get hold of the March 733 to which it was usually attached.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ian senior


Don't think there was much wrong with the TS15 that a works BMW engine wouldn't have cured. But the only way to obtain such an engine was to get hold of the March 733 to which it was usually attached.

You could buy a 73S group 6 car, which March mainly built to use up the 50 (IIRC) BMW engines they had to guarantee they could shift, and re-engine that with your FVC or BDG...

[Mallory Dan]

Anyone know how many 732s and 73Ss March built that year, the Lawrence book I'm sure says much less than 50. What about March's guarantee then, how did Max and Robin get out of that one!

Back to Surtees matters, on the engine front, I think Ian's right, thats the reason the TS15 lagged in 73. Didn't Watson have a few gos in 74 with a TS15A BMW, not too well as I recall. But on the F5000 matter, though I know it was getting towards its last legs, the TS11 having gone so well here in 72, why did no-one want one, or Surtees make a newer version in 73 ?

[neville mackay]

I'm sure that money, or the lack thereof, was a major contrbutory factor to the demise of the Surtees team. But I suspect that John's personality also played its part. An unwillingness to delegate...absolute conviction of the rightness of his own opinions....a resistance to meeting people half way....an abrasive personality.....all must have played a part in the teams fall from grace.

Neville

[Ray Bell]

Harry Galloway and Alan Jones both worked for FJ during that approximate time... they both speak of his intractible attitude and apparent death-wish for the team and its future... Larry Perkins too, as I recall...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Anyone know how many 732s and 73Ss March built that year, the Lawrence book I'm sure says much less than 50. What about March's guarantee then, how did Max and Robin get out of that one!

Back to Surtees matters, on the engine front, I think Ian's right, thats the reason the TS15 lagged in 73. Didn't Watson have a few gos in 74 with a TS15A BMW, not too well as I recall. But on the F5000 matter, though I know it was getting towards its last legs, the TS11 having gone so well here in 72, why did no-one want one, or Surtees make a newer version in 73 ?

Lawrence says 14 F2s and 19 sportscars. If you assume the works and some of the better-heeled customers took 2 engines per car it's not that hard to get to 50 engines...

(thinks - marchives.com might say more... too late to go ferretting there tonight...)

[Jeremy Jackson]

Lawrence says 14 F2s and 19 sportscars...

Yep, that's what Marchives says.

[SJ Lambert]

How many personnel were there onboard in '72?