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#1 ian senior

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 12:59

Just read somewhere that Jim Crawford made his debut in F1 after only competing in 25 car races. I didn't know it was as few as this, although I know he hadn't done many. Has any other driver come to F1 with so little experience? I don't call karts as experience, by the way.

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#2 Mallory Dan

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 13:51

Jim C was an early hero of mine, in those lovely SDC March 73Bs, then the Chevrons. As I remember he started at a Croft Libre race in a B25 in late 73, so given that he raced through 74 in Atlantic, then say half of 75 before getting the Lotus drive, its very possible that he'd only done 25 races before. Anyone know why it didn't work for him at Lotus, I know they were in an awful state in 75, and Henton struggled there too. Was Jim not quite quick enough at that level, or maybe his lack of experience coaught him out ??

Dan

#3 Racer.Demon

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 14:20

Originally posted by ian senior
Just read somewhere that Jim Crawford made his debut in F1 after only competing in 25 car races. I didn't know it was as few as this, although I know he hadn't done many. Has any other driver come to F1 with so little experience? I don't call karts as experience, by the way.


Kimi Räikkönen did just 12 car races before he entered F1, Jarno Trulli 26, Jos Verstappen 52 - all without karts.

#4 rdrcr

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 15:35

Originally posted by Racer.Demon


Kimi Räikkönen did just 12 car races before he entered F1, Jarno Trulli 26, Jos Verstappen 52 - all without karts.


Pardon,

Kimi started in Karts in 1999 before he went on to Formula A and F Renault. Trulli had European and National crowns in Karting. And, ol' Jos, well he started in '82 and won the 1989 European Kart championship and in 1991, he became the Belgian Kart champion.

Karting, it's the foundation...

#5 Racer.Demon

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 15:40

Did you really think my statement was implying that they did not have any karting experience? :rotfl:

Of course I meant to say, "without counting their kart races"...;)

#6 rdrcr

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 15:54

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Jim C was an early hero of mine, in those lovely SDC March 73Bs, then the Chevrons. As I remember he started at a Croft Libre race in a B25 in late 73, so given that he raced through 74 in Atlantic, then say half of 75 before getting the Lotus drive, its very possible that he'd only done 25 races before. Anyone know why it didn't work for him at Lotus, I know they were in an awful state in 75, and Henton struggled there too. Was Jim not quite quick enough at that level, or maybe his lack of experience coaught him out ??

Dan


Dan,

Mattijs and Rainer have a good story about Jim Crawford, it spells out the "W's" - as usual.

From the 8W website


And just to comment on Ian's opinion of not counting Karting as experience... I'd be willing to bet that Kimi, Jarno and Jos would.

The kids that run our IKF 125cc pro classes, you could throw a blanket over the top 8 as they bump-draft down the straights. The competitiveness is ingrained from the start, if that's not "experience" I don't know what else would qualify.

#7 ian senior

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 16:19

Perhaps I should have made myself a little clearer! Given that we are talking nostalgia on here, I was thinking of the days when drivers did not start racing karts the minute they left the womb. Back in the days of Jim Crawford, drivers who had karts on their CV were few and far between.

#8 Mallory Dan

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 16:40

Just been into the 8W post, thanks Richard, and noticed Crawford's proposed F2 deal for 76. Anyone know what this was about, a works Chevron perhaps ? Also who/what was the sponsor that let him down at the last minute?

Dan

#9 cabianca

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 20:02

Dan Gurney probably had around the same number of races before his first Ferrari GP ride in 1959.

#10 ghinzani

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 21:12

Apparently when Lotus were going thru their who do we run saga at the begining of 76 Henton was in line to maybe drive again, however Peter Warr was quoted in Autospurt when asked about Crawford something along the lines of "we wrote to him offering to renew his contract at the end of last season (75) but we havent heard back" if thats true I wonder why Jim didnt want anything more to do with them? Bob Evans ended up getting the ride, alomg with Gunnar. Sadly we can no longer ask Jim. Is his initial sponsor and fellow Chevron'ite Stephen Chouralton (?) still about? maybe he knows.

#11 MCS

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 20:02

Originally posted by ghinzani
Apparently when Lotus were going thru their who do we run saga at the begining of 76 Henton was in line to maybe drive again, however Peter Warr was quoted in Autospurt when asked about Crawford something along the lines of "we wrote to him offering to renew his contract at the end of last season (75) but we havent heard back" if thats true I wonder why Jim didnt want anything more to do with them? Bob Evans ended up getting the ride, alomg with Gunnar. Sadly we can no longer ask Jim. Is his initial sponsor and fellow Chevron'ite Stephen Chouralton (?) still about? maybe he knows.


Just read this - via an idle search, during an idle moment...

What absolute nonsense. I cannot believe that Warr allowed himself to be quoted as above. (Or did he?)

Any memories, anybody, of one of the greatest - totally under-utilised - driving talents in British motor racing?

Mark

#12 Twin Window

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Posted 30 April 2005 - 00:10

Jim was a bit of a hero, and it was a real shame he didn't get a proper crack at F1.

One of my earliest personal encounters with him would have been in 1981 and the Spa F2 round springs to mind, when his Plygrange team and the team I was staying with (Docking Spitzley) shared a small-ish hotel.

Jim and I managed to get a truly ridiculously favourable BF/GBP exchange rate from our hosts, and then persuaded them to let us serve ourselves at the bar after they'd gone to bed! Silly buggers. At the final race of the season, the post-race evening involved food fights and then hire car races - in reverse, and on wet cobblestones - between Plygrange, Docking Spitzley, March and Maurer! F2 was just brilliant in those days...

Over the next few years I saw him at several US races, including Indy. In 1984 he tried to tell me and Kenny Acheson that he was taking turn 1 flat, despite the fact that we were watching from pit lane and could clearly hear him lift... No matter, he's not alone in that respect.

The last time I saw him was when I spent a weekend at Jim's place in Sarasota (spl?) with Tommy in 1988. By then he's had at least one massive shunt at Indianapolis, and could no longer walk properly - in fact his legs looked like a railway map of the UK, like Eliseo's ended up years later.

We had a great weekend playing on jetskis and the like, plus 'big' nights down at the local Irish bar. However I wasn't too impressed to hear back from Tommy's [ex] wife one morning that Jim had reportedly boasted to his missus that the previous evening he'd ate, drank and been merry and not spent a penny! It was true, because I'd paid, but it was a slightly odd reaction.

I do have some nice pics from that fun weekend, but am currently unable to link my laptop to my scanner. When that's sorted, I'll post them.

#13 ensign14

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Posted 30 April 2005 - 06:29

Originally posted by ian senior
Just read somewhere that Jim Crawford made his debut in F1 after only competing in 25 car races. I didn't know it was as few as this, although I know he hadn't done many. Has any other driver come to F1 with so little experience? I don't call karts as experience, by the way.

John Surtees?

#14 MCS

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 12:45

Formula Atlantic March 73B - Oulton Park, 1974...

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#15 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 13:42

Here's a shot from the 1975 British GP practice of both Jim and Superhen.
Both great talents sadly overlooked in an era of cash-above-ability.
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#16 ian senior

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 13:57

Originally posted by ensign14
John Surtees?


Probably quite true. Read an old Motor or Autocar a little while ago, and it seems there was a bit of a hoo-hah going on about Big John being granted a full car racing licence when he hadn't done anything like enough qualifying events to get one - I think you needed about 6 before you got past the "restricted" stage. Would he have been the only F1 driver to taken part in a race with the obligatory novices cross on the back of the car?

BTW - Perhaps I didn't put my original point across too well. What I was really looking for was a driver who reached F1 without much in the way of ANY racing experience. I suppose karts do count, although how the close racing you find in karting would stand in you in good stead for present day F1 is anyone's guess. Gives you the right mentality, though - if all you have known since leaving the womb is racing, you're going to want to go on and do it for as long as possible.

#17 MCS

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 20:08

Wonder how many races it would have taken Bill Ivy, had he lived...? :cry:

Mark

#18 paulsenna1

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 21:05

Originally posted by MCS
Formula Atlantic March 73B - Oulton Park, 1974...

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This brings back such happy memories of those times. As a schoolboy I pestered my dad to take me to Oulton early on Saturday mornings so as I could watch the practice sessions as well as the racing.

Maybe looking back through rose tinted lenses, but racing was good back then.

Paul.

#19 Twin Window

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 22:37

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks

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That's a great shot, Simon - I don't recall ever seeing a pic of the two of them together at that GP before...

And that's also a lovely shot of Jim, Mark :up:

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#20 Mallory Dan

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 12:48

Anyone remember Jim C in British F3 in about 1977-78 ? He didn't go at all well, certainly not as quick as I'd have thought given his experience by then. Was it the case of these cars being too underpowered for his style perhaps, or maybe he didn't have the same motor/tyres as the better financed teams at the time.

#21 MCS

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 15:02

It was 1978 as I recall, Dan. He started with an old B38 which he rolled at Thruxton on Easter Monday. I can remember talking to him in the paddock just after the race and his overalls were covered in mud! He then built up the somewhat recalcitrant B43 at the factory.

He had some money (nowhere near enough) from a Swiss backer initially and then ran with some extra resources from Mike Peers (a Bolton steel stockholder, I think).

Yes, I genuinely believe a combination of the type of car, lack of finance, chassis, engine, etc. were the main reasons for his unusually uncompetitive showings.

The only time he set the cat amongst the pigeons was in a wet early morning at Mallory where he claimed provisional pole - but then the heavy rain had equalised the field. It quickly dried out for the later session and the race and I think he came home about fifth or sixth :(

I still rate him as one of our best "lost" talents...

Mark

#22 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 15:06

Probably zero money and worn out engines !
He was awesome in an F2 Chevron and in Atlantic so F3 wasn't that much different. As Mario once said "if you can drive - you can drive" and Jim most definately could.

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#23 Cirrus

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 17:37

He started with an old B38 which he rolled at Thruxton on Easter Monday



I remember that race - it was televised, and the accident was played out right in front of the cameras. He sort of slid off the circuit, caught a ditch sideways, and flipped. The wide open spaces of Thruxton saved him from potential serious injury.

#24 slucas

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 20:13

That crash made it on a "Havac " video.
I had the opportunity to meet Jim in Trinadad in '82 when we were both invited
by the local car club to race,he in a Jamacan prepared formula B. It was interesting to listen
to the differance between Jim and the "regular guys" (it was an airport track, so it was difficult to see any differances).His downshifts were so much faster and precise than anyone elses.Bernard Devaney was also invited but was driving a locally prep'd car that had the brake calipers on upsidedown,the second element of the wing was on backwards and the car had chicken sh... goo all over it, so it wasn't a fair comparison with Jim.
Jim spoke of his driving for Lotus but only as a tester;"My job was to bounce the cars off curbs to see what broke".
Next time I saw him he was driving a Can-Am-ised Ensign F1 car at Mosport.He was very impressive!

Scott

#25 RJL

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 05:31

Nice little summary on Jim C here .

#26 jgm

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 19:10

John Surtees made his F1 debut ( the Silverstone International Trophy 1960) at his fourth ever car meeting. His GP debut at Monaco 1960 was his seventh car race. By his twelfth car race he was taking pole position at the Portugese GP ahead of people like Gurney, Brabham, Moss, G.Hill, McLaren, Ireland, Clark, von Trips, P.Hill etc. There weren't any proper karts then although there were bikes of course.

#27 MCS

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 20:27

Originally posted by RJL
Nice little summary on Jim C here .


Whilst the piece may have been full of good intention, it is also full of mistakes and inaccuracies :down:

#28 Chris Townsend

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 09:21

The March 74B at Oulton is a good example of the kind of low-cost racing that Crawford had to go in for.
It was actually built up by Stephen Choularton's team from 73B spares at the start of 1974 - wasn't a works built car, a year old against all the new Chevrons and Lola T360s that year. After a big accident in practice at Brands in late September SDC purchased a spare tub from March, for the princely sum of £45 [according to Autosport] and rebuilt it in a week to keep him going.

#29 MCS

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 14:52

Originally posted by MCS
...He then built up the somewhat recalcitrant B43 at the factory...


Early test, Oulton Park - May (?) 1978.

Interestingly, Derek Warwick was testing the works March in the same session (the chassis as pedalled by Nigel Mansell up to that point in the season) with a view to swapping his Ralt...

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Mark

#30 fines

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 15:33

Well, he (Warwick) did a few races in the March, didn't he?

#31 MCS

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 18:22

Originally posted by fines
Well, he (Warwick) did a few races in the March, didn't he?


Yes, he did race the March - suitably decked out in yellow "Warwick's Trailers" colours - but reverted back to the Ralt very quickly.

But how quickly, Michael?

I saw him race it at Mallory Park certainly, but did he race it again???

And if so, how many times?

Mark

#32 MCS

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 21:06

Early days with the B25 at Oulton Park - about to give Purley (also pictured), Vandervell, Nicholson and the others quite a shock by leading initially...

Twinny - note Jim's RED-striped helmet (as opposed to the yellow-striped one in the picture I posted recently of him in his debut drive in the B25)...

Posted Image

Mark

#33 Twin Window

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 06:14

Originally posted by MCS

Twinny - note Jim's RED-striped helmet (as opposed to the yellow-striped one in the picture I posted recently of him in his debut drive in the B25)...

Yep, clocked that! That shot is from 'my' place on the bridge, isn't it? A great place, that old assembly area...

Love the b&w shot too, Mark :up:

#34 MCS

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 11:47

Originally posted by Twin Window
That shot is from 'my' place on the bridge, isn't it? A great place, that old assembly area...


Yes, indeed.

There isn't even a bridge anymore, is there? :(

Mark

#35 Twin Window

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 13:15

Originally posted by MCS

There isn't even a bridge anymore, is there? :(

Nope. A real shame...

#36 Mallory Dan

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 13:53

Originally posted by MCS


Yes, he did race the March - suitably decked out in yellow "Warwick's Trailers" colours - but reverted back to the Ralt very quickly.

But how quickly, Michael?

I saw him race it at Mallory Park certainly, but did he race it again???

And if so, how many times?

Mark


Mark, purely from memory, I think Warwick raced the 783 perhaps 4-5 times that year, before he realised it was a blind alley. I think he got a bit spooked by how much faster Piquet was in his RT1, so decided to try an alternative. DW must have thought he was going to dominate F3 that year over here given his experience and start to the year. Given that he also switched cars the year before, in '77, maybe it hinted at a sign of desperation in how his career was panning out.

#37 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 14:55

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


....a sign of desperation in how his career was panning out.


That comment could be applied to every F3 driver in history.. even those winning most of the races, often the most desparate of the lot!

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#38 David Lawson

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Posted 07 June 2005 - 22:45

These are two photographs I took at the Formula Atlantic race that supported the British Airways 1000km at Brands Hatch in 1974.

Posted Image
I think this is Nicholson leading Mallock and Crawford at the start of the race.

Posted Image
Crawford

Tony Brise won and Crawford lost his nosecone during the race although I can't remember the incident in detail.

David

#39 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 08:50

Thats John Nicholson, of Nicholson-McLaren engines, I think, who's leading Ray and Jim . The same sponsor featured on his Lyncar F1 entry in 74.
Nice photos!

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#40 Phil Rainford

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 09:57

An interview with the great man......

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2tlUxk7_Vs

Kind regards

Phil

#41 britishtrident

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 15:38

A lot of the problems for british F1 drivers in the mid and late 1970s were down to lack sponsorship money, few UK sponsors had any money many big international sponsors didn't want british drivers. In the 1970s the UK economy was sinking fast and international companies where investing heavily in expanding other markets such as South America.

#42 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 11:36

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Jim C was an early hero of mine, in those lovely SDC March 73Bs, ..

Dan


Here's the very team complete with transporter and a very young looking Jim. Someone told me years back the Steve Choularton was a 'something in the city' and positively rolling in cash at the time.
Wonder what became of him?

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#43 ian senior

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 15:02

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
[B] Someone told me years back the Steve Choularton was a 'something in the city' and positively rolling in cash at the time.
Wonder what became of him?

Steve's Dad wasn't short of few quid either. I believe it was thanks to him that Steve was able to start racing.

#44 David McKinney

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 16:03

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
Wonder what became of him?

There's a politician in Australia called Stephen Choularton...

#45 MCS

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 22:37

Nope.

Choularton stayed local and got involved in some retail venture I have been told. What, I have no idea.

#46 ZOOOM

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 01:26

From accross the "Pond" I can tell you that Jim Crawford was one of the bravest men I ever saw race. His experience at Indy was the stuff of legends. Always seemed to put it "on the line" . Too bad his results didn't match his efforts...
He was a good one!
ZOOOM

#47 MCS

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 19:16

Formula Three Chevron B43, Spring 1978...

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#48 wildman

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 19:25

Crawford's March 847 leads Horst Kroll's Frissbee at the 1984 Sears Point Can-Am.
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#49 Mallory Dan

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 11:08

Originally posted by MCS
Nope.

Choularton stayed local and got involved in some retail venture I have been told. What, I have no idea.


I heard the other day that Steve Choularton was based at "somewhere Brook" (Norton?), just off the M56 at the A49 turn? Wasn't he a Property Developer of some kind?

#50 Phil Rainford

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 17:26

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


I heard the other day that Steve Choularton was based at "somewhere Brook" (Norton?), just off the M56 at the A49 turn? Wasn't he a Property Developer of some kind?


http://maps.google.c...snum=1&ct=title

Dan could this be the place?

Kind regards

Phil