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#151 Lola5000

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:24

John Joyce did do a lot of work on the Super Falcon, but I'm not sure it was re-shelled...

Robert, what Pete had you simply didn't lose.

Ray,what was the reason (s) behind his career stopping? And I'm thinking late 70s to mid 80s.
Weight?
Money?
Lack of interest?

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#152 GMACKIE

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:37

I don't think it's a good idea to open that 'can-of-worms' here on TNF.

#153 Lola5000

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:52

I don't think it's a good idea to open that 'can-of-worms' here on TNF.

Hi,I'm not wanting to go down that track at all.Sorry if it comes across like that and i think that all happened many years latter.
For me one moment he is raising then the next moment it stopped and few if any quality long distance drives came his way.





#154 GMACKIE

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:31

Hi,I'm not wanting to go down that track at all.Sorry if it comes across like that and i think that all happened many years latter.
For me one moment he is raising then the next moment it stopped and few if any quality long distance drives came his way.

I assumed that was the case, but it would be unfortunate if some 'ding-bat' decided it was his/her chance to wreck this thread.


#155 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:36

Pete's racing ended long before any of that nasty business...

Well, maybe the money was running out. But he was fully sponsored by Grace Bros. in his last regular racing, and then Laurie O'Neil, he had no investment in his racing after the Super Falcon.

So none of this is relevant to his racing.

Edited by Ray Bell, 20 July 2013 - 14:04.


#156 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:50

Ray,in those days there were so many of those style trucks getting around and Green was a local car dealer in Balwyn,so I guess it was another truck,plus the car was yellow which would suggest that Green had owned it for a while and not just had it delivered .
While on that Mustang and its conversion to the latter rules and its fuel injection,I've often wondered why they did that,when the Moffat car worked fine on the IDA's plus the Moffat car never went to injection ...apart from the 351 period?

Moffats Falcon was a dog, that is why he continued to race the Boss Mustang,, with IDAs. From all accounts though he probably could not afford to develop injection, and the car was still on the pace anyway. The Super Falcon really was a dog too, Geoghans persevered and spent plenty to make it a reasonable car and it even beat Moff once or twice. In hindsight Bob Jane probably spent the least of all. Very expensive initial cost for the day but then reasonable quick and reliable.

#157 racer69

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:15


His drive at Bathurst in 1980? showed very much he was still capable of mixing it with others as did his drives in the Amaroo TR7 series.


As a young kid in the late-80s, my uncle had sensed my growing passion of motorsport and used to tape stuff he had onto VHS tapes and bring them round every so often. One of those tapes was of a Commodore Classic race at Oran Park in early 1987 (at the Silver Anniversary meeting), where Pete (and John Goss) showed the 'youngsters' a clean pair of heals

#158 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:02

Lee, I think he was talking about the Mustang...

John French also drove the Super Falcons.

#159 Hank the Deuce

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:31

I'll have a scratch around the library here and see what clues I can find... certainly, in the piece that he wrote (or was ghostwritten) for "Motor Racing - The Australian Way", Ian opined that he was regarded as a veteran at that stage... I'd put that somewhere early in 1972. The same line mentioned Leo's (first) retirement, post-Improved Production, it would seem that he wasn't going to sink any more of his money into racing - the Super Falcon was traded to Kingsley Hibbard in exchange (at least partially or somesuch) for a boat I believe... it went on the market pretty cheaply. I'd think that most of his driving from that point was in Laurie O'Neill's gear, notably the Monaro Sports Sedan that Sheppo built.

I guess that the big fella might've been a bit selective about what he drove... surely there would've been offers...

His 1977 Bathurst in Bob Jane's A9X had potential - I believe that was a Sheppard car too - as he brained them in unofficial practice, but the car had dramas... in 1978, the same car was shared with Garry Rogers (his Bathurst debut?), but went out early, and Sheppo was of course the HDT king by then, taking the lessons he learnt from Old Tom to a new zenith.

Did he appear in 1979? Certainly he gave it a shake in 1980. Leo was quoted as saying that they started 12th, didn't pass a thing all day, and finished third when everybody else dropped out... the car was for sale, and so they weren't keen to mess up the paint scheme with a heap of signwriting and stickers - and lamented that they missed out on a good whack of conditional prize money.

Bob Muir engaged Pete for Bathurst '81 in the Army Reserve Falcon, which hadn't really done a thing before (or since). Ironically Kingsley Hibbard - who'd purchased the XY from Geoghegan nearly a decade previously - had shared the car with Muir the year before, and it only lasted a handful of laps then either.

Muir figured that whatever he could do in the car, the big fella would certainly eclipse by a good handful of seconds, but he said later that Pete wasn't any quicker in it than he was. And that was that.

While I don't doubt that Moffat would've given his eye teeth for someone as naturally gifted as Pete as a co-driver - at least circa 81-82 (although Derek Bell put in good drives, and I don't know that Katayama was a dud either), I'd say that there was no way that Moffat was going to ballast the Rx-7 by as much as he would by installing the big unit in it...

As far as the fuel injection/Moffat debate went, Moffat has said that his Mustang grew Webers when Geoghegan ran them on his Mustang - his contacts in the States were apparently bemused that he was fitting that setup as opposed to the single-carb setup they were running, but Moffat figured to beat Geoghegan and Jane, he'd be mad not to fight fire with fire. I don't know that Moffat actually would've spent up big on running the Mustang - after all, it hadn't cost him anything to start with, other than plane fares (which pretty much burnt whatever money he'd earned from selling the Cortina)... and while Bob Jane had set on a dependable package, I don't think he would've been crying poor anyway.

Of course, most of the contributors to this thread were there to see much of it first-hand, and I only have the accounts of those who cared to have it recorded...

Edited by Hank the Deuce, 18 July 2013 - 12:36.


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#160 GMACKIE

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 22:16

Good stuff there, Hank. Whenever Kingsley Hibbard's name crops up, I immediately think of 5 Amals on a 6 cyl. Holden, for some reason.

#161 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 23:29

Let's try and get the latter part of his career in chronological order...

By '72 he was in the Super Falcon, as provided by Ford and finished off by Mick Lambert. '73, wasn't he driving a Charger with GBs signwriting, and probably that was when the Bowin Designs type number was applied to the Falcon.

'74, Laurie O'Neil's ex-Bill Brown Porsche 911S in Sports Sedans with Wills sponsorship coming through the year.

'75... the Laurie O'Neil Monaro. '76 the Laurex Porsche, repainting the ex-Bill Brown 911S (as frequently outbraked at Oran Park by Ross Donnelley's E-type) and running in ProdSports.

'77 saw the lack of a regular drive, but into the Jane Torana for an enduro or two and an outing for the Laurex 935 at the end of the year.

'78 he drove the Jane Torana through the ATCC.

One-off drives at Bathurst don't rank highly in this discussion, from my point of view.

Edited by Ray Bell, 18 July 2013 - 23:59.


#162 DanTra2858

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 00:57

Good stuff there, Hank. Whenever Kingsley Hibbard's name crops up, I immediately think of 5 Amals on a 6 cyl. Holden, for some reason.


Greg, Hibbards Holden spent time here in Wollongong under the care of the Algie brothers, so the Amal carbs.


#163 Lola5000

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 02:56

I'll have a scratch around the library here and see what clues I can find... certainly, in the piece that he wrote (or was ghostwritten) for "Motor Racing - The Australian Way", Ian opined that he was regarded as a veteran at that stage... I'd put that somewhere early in 1972. The same line mentioned Leo's (first) retirement, post-Improved Production, it would seem that he wasn't going to sink any more of his money into racing - the Super Falcon was traded to Kingsley Hibbard in exchange (at least partially or somesuch) for a boat I believe... it went on the market pretty cheaply. I'd think that most of his driving from that point was in Laurie O'Neill's gear, notably the Monaro Sports Sedan that Sheppo built.

I guess that the big fella might've been a bit selective about what he drove... surely there would've been offers...

His 1977 Bathurst in Bob Jane's A9X had potential - I believe that was a Sheppard car too - as he brained them in unofficial practice, but the car had dramas... in 1978, the same car was shared with Garry Rogers (his Bathurst debut?), but went out early, and Sheppo was of course the HDT king by then, taking the lessons he learnt from Old Tom to a new zenith.

Did he appear in 1979? Certainly he gave it a shake in 1980. Leo was quoted as saying that they started 12th, didn't pass a thing all day, and finished third when everybody else dropped out... the car was for sale, and so they weren't keen to mess up the paint scheme with a heap of signwriting and stickers - and lamented that they missed out on a good whack of conditional prize money.

Bob Muir engaged Pete for Bathurst '81 in the Army Reserve Falcon, which hadn't really done a thing before (or since). Ironically Kingsley Hibbard - who'd purchased the XY from Geoghegan nearly a decade previously - had shared the car with Muir the year before, and it only lasted a handful of laps then either.

Muir figured that whatever he could do in the car, the big fella would certainly eclipse by a good handful of seconds, but he said later that Pete wasn't any quicker in it than he was. And that was that.

While I don't doubt that Moffat would've given his eye teeth for someone as naturally gifted as Pete as a co-driver - at least circa 81-82 (although Derek Bell put in good drives, and I don't know that Katayama was a dud either), I'd say that there was no way that Moffat was going to ballast the Rx-7 by as much as he would by installing the big unit in it...

As far as the fuel injection/Moffat debate went, Moffat has said that his Mustang grew Webers when Geoghegan ran them on his Mustang - his contacts in the States were apparently bemused that he was fitting that setup as opposed to the single-carb setup they were running, but Moffat figured to beat Geoghegan and Jane, he'd be mad not to fight fire with fire. I don't know that Moffat actually would've spent up big on running the Mustang - after all, it hadn't cost him anything to start with, other than plane fares (which pretty much burnt whatever money he'd earned from selling the Cortina)... and while Bob Jane had set on a dependable package, I don't think he would've been crying poor anyway.

Of course, most of the contributors to this thread were there to see much of it first-hand, and I only have the accounts of those who cared to have it recorded...

Thanks Hank,you reminded about the Muir Falcon.

The Jane car in '77 was a rocket ship till it had issues with a oil filter?

#164 ellrosso

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 03:18

Here is a selection of cars Pete drove over the years. Same car, different livery or year in some cases.

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#165 seldo

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 04:17

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Some great photos, but the back of the pedestrian onlooker appears very familiar....Ray Bell?

#166 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 05:45

Here is a selection of cars Pete drove over the years. Same car, different livery or year in some cases.

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That pic of Gossy in the Falcon,, back it in and drive it out. And from the stance on the Charger Pete is doing the same.
The Porker in NZ is in Craven Mild colors with B&H on it!
And that pic of the Monaro is great, before I was screwed around with to make [sort of] legal.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 19 July 2013 - 05:48.


#167 Lola5000

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 05:56

Perhaps after all the money spent on the Falcon out of his own pocket the drives with the various O'Neill units ,Ian was at stage where he was not prepared to go on or put his own money into a new unit ,in times of change.

After all he had been racing front line for nearly 2 decades.And one thinks about it ,what would he race and how would he organize a fresh team car,in those times of change.And after winning all those ATCC ... what was there to prove.

I just thinks its a shame that no top line drives came his way in those year's whether it had been in an enduro drive or as 2nd member of a quality group C team.

When did the Geoghegan car dealerships wind down.....I suspect during the 90/91 recession?


I'm sure if he was around 30 years old today,his drive would be with top team of today with the ability to take on any of today's guns.


Edited by Lola5000, 19 July 2013 - 06:06.


#168 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:35

Pretty sure I visited Pete some time in the mid-eighties at an office over Hunters Hill way...

I don't know what he was doing, but the car yard had wound up by then and this business was going the same way. Later he was a courier driver for various car-dealer mates.

Further confirmation of the car yard having been wound up, in 1989 I looked at a car at Damon Beck's yard in Gladesville, Leo was the buyer and Damon was the seller and that had been the case for a couple of years at least. Damon has been one of those people who spent a lot of time trying to keep Leo afloat despite his problems.

#169 Lola5000

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 09:04

Ray ..do you remember those great reports and photos in RCN of when the Porsche 911s were racing as Sport Sedans ,'73/74? and we had the 2 Geoghegans's,Hamilton,Brown,Goss,Harvey and others racing the cars against the V8s.

Those reports and the photos of the races were "ACE"


Several times we had the 2 Geoghegans racing each other in the Reg Mort (ex Foley car) and the O'neill car .


Can also remember various front covers of RCN with the the O'neill car on the cover.


Great times and quality reporting unlike todays rubbish that is served up.

Just goes to show how good Ian was in a small hp car like the Porsche against rivals in similar cars and all the extra body weight his car would have carried on one side.

#170 Hank the Deuce

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 10:44

stunning pics of the big fella in action! I was reading some stories related to the build of the Monaro... sppsrently there was signage somewhere within the vehicle that referred to the triumverate of "Moneybags, "S&%tbags" and "Twobags"... Sheppo was asked who was who - from a choice of Pete, Laurie O'Neill, or himself. His comment was that it changed daily...

Sheppard had a million great yarns about Ian. He remembers that Ian put it to him very early in the piece that he wouldn't tell Sheppo how to build the cars, as long as Sheppo didn't tell him how to drive them.

When one suggestion was thrown into the mix with regard to paring weight from the car, Pete fixed a level look upon the suggester and stammered wryly: "h-h-have you had a f-fa-fu-f@8king look at me lately?"

...or during a particularly warm day's testing, the big fella trundled into the pits after some lappery, and Sheppard stuck his head in the window.

"How is it?" he enquired.

"I-i-i-it's.."

"understeering?"

"n-no, i-it's t-"

"Too short-geared?"

"No. I-it's too f-f-"

"firm in the springs?"

"No! i-i-it's t-too-f-f-f@%king hot. Let's go home"

John built the 1977 A9X for Bob Jane IIRC: Bob had apparently sent a truckload of thin-gauge steel down to Fisherman's Bend for Mike Prowse to have stamped into a super-light shell for him: the original plan was to build a sports sedan. The story goes that two men could carry the completed bare shell with relative ease. The plan changed somewhat, and they built a lovely and light touring car out of it. Pete loved it: he declared it "a little darling", the highest compliment he gave. And according to Bill Tuckey - an unwavering admirer of the big man's talent - Pete put it to very good use during Bathurst practice in 1977. At a meeting where the pole time was around the 2:25 mark, the orange Torana was timed at 2:22-ish in unofficial practice, and apparently travelling at the usual Geoghegan attitude. Again according to Tuckey, it was in the habit of unscrewing oil filters, both in practice, and again in the race...

That was the car that Ian used in 1978, with a win at the Sandown ATCC round when Moffat and Brock were rubbed out for running roller-rockers and the like. It ended its days against the earth bank at Amaroo when Garry Rogers got it all wrong, didn't it?

One gets the feeling that Sheppo quite enjoyed his years working for the Geoghegans...

Edited by Hank the Deuce, 19 July 2013 - 10:49.


#171 Lola5000

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:04

stunning pics of the big fella in action! I was reading some stories related to the build of the Monaro... sppsrently there was signage somewhere within the vehicle that referred to the triumverate of "Moneybags, "S&%tbags" and "Twobags"... Sheppo was asked who was who - from a choice of Pete, Laurie O'Neill, or himself. His comment was that it changed daily...

Sheppard had a million great yarns about Ian. He remembers that Ian put it to him very early in the piece that he wouldn't tell Sheppo how to build the cars, as long as Sheppo didn't tell him how to drive them.

When one suggestion was thrown into the mix with regard to paring weight from the car, Pete fixed a level look upon the suggester and stammered wryly: "h-h-have you had a f-fa-fu-f@8king look at me lately?"

...or during a particularly warm day's testing, the big fella trundled into the pits after some lappery, and Sheppard stuck his head in the window.

"How is it?" he enquired.

"I-i-i-it's.."

"understeering?"

"n-no, i-it's t-"

"Too short-geared?"

"No. I-it's too f-f-"

"firm in the springs?"

"No! i-i-it's t-too-f-f-f@%king hot. Let's go home"

John built the 1977 A9X for Bob Jane IIRC: Bob had apparently sent a truckload of thin-gauge steel down to Fisherman's Bend for Mike Prowse to have stamped into a super-light shell for him: the original plan was to build a sports sedan. The story goes that two men could carry the completed bare shell with relative ease. The plan changed somewhat, and they built a lovely and light touring car out of it. Pete loved it: he declared it "a little darling", the highest compliment he gave. And according to Bill Tuckey - an unwavering admirer of the big man's talent - Pete put it to very good use during Bathurst practice in 1977. At a meeting where the pole time was around the 2:25 mark, the orange Torana was timed at 2:22-ish in unofficial practice, and apparently travelling at the usual Geoghegan attitude. Again according to Tuckey, it was in the habit of unscrewing oil filters, both in practice, and again in the race...

That was the car that Ian used in 1978, with a win at the Sandown ATCC round when Moffat and Brock were rubbed out for running roller-rockers and the like. It ended its days against the earth bank at Amaroo when Garry Rogers got it all wrong, didn't it?

One gets the feeling that Sheppo quite enjoyed his years working for the Geoghegans...

Years ago ,I ask John who was the best driver he had worked with.

Very quick reply....Pete Geoghegan and this was the man who engineered Brock's '78 ATCC and Bathurst wins.

#172 David Shaw

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:39

When one suggestion was thrown into the mix with regard to paring weight from the car, Pete fixed a level look upon the suggester and stammered wryly: "h-h-have you had a f-fa-fu-f@8king look at me lately?"


IIRC, this story emanated from a race in the 935 at Phillip Island when he brought the car in during a race as it was raining and the wipers weren't working. He was told that the wiper motor had been removed to save weight.

#173 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:43

Originally posted by Lola5000
Ray ..do you remember those great reports and photos in RCN of when the Porsche 911s were racing as Sport Sedans ,'73/74? and we had the 2 Geoghegans, Hamilton, Brown, Goss, Harvey and others racing the cars against the V8s.

Those reports and the photos of the races were "ACE".....


Remember them?

I wrote them, laid out the pages, wrote the photo captions, lap-scored the races and compiled the results!

And today you've had me going back over them to check things out...

The O'Neil car, incidentally, was driven variously by Peter Brock, John Goss and Pete. I think Harvey drove the Reg Mort car, didn't he? Reg was a character, owned the car, prepared the car and didn't have time to comb his hair or wash his overalls. Hamilton... yes, he did run a few times in the Sports Sedans, but made a bigger mark in the earlier days in Improved Touring (won at Lakeside) and later in ProdSports. Jim McKeown stuck with the 911 from Improved Touring and into Sports Sedans, IIRC.

Edited by Ray Bell, 19 July 2013 - 11:44.


#174 Hank the Deuce

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:44

Years ago ,I ask John who was the best driver he had worked with.

Very quick reply....Pete Geoghegan and this was the man who engineered Brock's '78 ATCC and Bathurst wins.

Apparently this was something that Sheppo was only too happy to reiterate - did I read that he said it - very publicly - at a dinner honouring the late-70's HDT (it could've been the prizegiving dinner for the 1979 Hardie-Ferodo 1000?) in response to a similar question - on the podium and all...

I recall reading a post here by Ray Bell that illustrated that the Big Man's skill held even Brock in thrall... a comment from trackside from memory?

#175 Lola5000

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:55

Remember them?

I wrote them, laid out the pages, wrote the photo captions, lap-scored the races and compiled the results!

And today you've had me going back over them to check things out...

The O'Neil car, incidentally, was driven variously by Peter Brock, John Goss and Pete. I think Harvey drove the Reg Mort car, didn't he? Reg was a character, owned the car, prepared the car and didn't have time to comb his hair or wash his overalls. Hamilton... yes, he did run a few times in the Sports Sedans, but made a bigger mark in the earlier days in Improved Touring (won at Lakeside) and later in ProdSports. Jim McKeown stuck with the 911 from Improved Touring and into Sports Sedans, IIRC.

RCN of that period I bought them as a teen and years latter as an adult re bought them 2nd hand ,always a great read.

the Mort 911....was the Brian Foley ATCC car,then sold/leased to Jim Palmer NZ,then to Mort who had it till a few years ago and now is restored to Foley period and owned in VIC by a well respected Porsche collector.

ps as always your above comments are stop on.

I think the 911 ,Hamilton raced in about 72/73 was the ex Bill Brown SV car.

Edited by Lola5000, 19 July 2013 - 11:57.


#176 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:56

Orignally posted by Hank the Deuce
.....Sheppard had a million great yarns about Ian. He remembers that Ian put it to him very early in the piece that he wouldn't tell Sheppo how to build the cars, as long as Sheppo didn't tell him how to drive them.....


Sheppo did, I'm sure...

Under Sheppard the Geoghegans, particularly Pete in the Mustangs, did very slow warm up laps and slow down laps in practice. It was something Sheppard liked to do to prevent warming and cooling stuff too quickly.

John built the 1977 A9X for Bob Jane IIRC: Bob had apparently sent a truckload of thin-gauge steel down to Fisherman's Bend for Mike Prowse to have stamped into a super-light shell for him: the original plan was to build a sports sedan. The story goes that two men could carry the completed bare shell with relative ease. The plan changed somewhat, and they built a lovely and light touring car out of it.....

.....It ended its days against the earth bank at Amaroo when Garry Rogers got it all wrong, didn't it?


Another story I doubt...

I recall Peter Brock telling me how all the cars were built with thinner gauge steel around that time, that Holdens had gone over to a higher tensile type of material and it enabled them to be thinner.

Even if it did have some panels lighter than standard, I'm quite sure GM-H would have had less trouble putting their hands on some than Janey.

And that car did go off at Amaroo in Garry Rogers' hands... it was a dreadful looking accident as he'd lost his brakes or something coming down to Winfield, steered across the infield and got it sideways at an enormous rate of knots and then bounced across into the concrete wall sideways. I was sure he couldn't survive the banging of his head to one side like that, but he did.

.....That was the car that Ian used in 1978, with a win at the Sandown ATCC round when Moffat and Brock were rubbed out for running roller-rockers and the like.....


Moffat was illegally using roller rockers. But Brock's exclusion was for cutting a hole through the splash shield under the engine for the anti-roll bar. This was something that had been done to the car by Harry for a year or two, Sheppo had asked CAMS for a clarification on it and was awaiting an answer. If anyone has the CAMS Manual for the period they can see the wording that brought it into question.

#177 Lola5000

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 12:07

I was at Oran Park in 1994 for the final of the ,

Gold Star with Monogue who was running a Lola T87/50.

As always a weekend of drama............and fun.

the Sports production cars were running , Porsche 968 vs Mazda RX7,with Alan Jones driving a RX7.

I see this late model Mercedes Benz 300ce with the number plate "IG ..." role up,Big Pete got out of it and many eyes and smiles were directed his way.

I'd say like many ,i got more pleasure out of seeing him there then a world champion racing.

Edited by Lola5000, 19 July 2013 - 12:08.


#178 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 00:32

Sheppo did, I'm sure...

Under Sheppard the Geoghegans, particularly Pete in the Mustangs, did very slow warm up laps and slow down laps in practice. It was something Sheppard liked to do to prevent warming and cooling stuff too quickly.



Another story I doubt...

I recall Peter Brock telling me how all the cars were built with thinner gauge steel around that time, that Holdens had gone over to a higher tensile type of material and it enabled them to be thinner.

Even if it did have some panels lighter than standard, I'm quite sure GM-H would have had less trouble putting their hands on some than Janey.

And that car did go off at Amaroo in Garry Rogers' hands... it was a dreadful looking accident as he'd lost his brakes or something coming down to Winfield, steered across the infield and got it sideways at an enormous rate of knots and then bounced across into the concrete wall sideways. I was sure he couldn't survive the banging of his head to one side like that, but he did.



Moffat was illegally using roller rockers. But Brock's exclusion was for cutting a hole through the splash shield under the engine for the anti-roll bar. This was something that had been done to the car by Harry for a year or two, Sheppo had asked CAMS for a clarification on it and was awaiting an answer. If anyone has the CAMS Manual for the period they can see the wording that brought it into question.

Maybe the injury to Garry is showing now,, the Volvo V8!
Too many of those later GpC cars and subsequently GpA were illegal. Thin guage bodys, bumpers, bolt on panels, massaged panel shape, massaged suspension pick ups. Yet the HDT car got picked for having the sway bar through the splash pan! As did many others. Though was the body shell legal? I have worked on ex HDT cars [Harrys] that were not. The first thinner guage production bodys were UC, though late A9X did shate some engineering with them. The Fords could have raced without roller rockers, less lift less RPM and all the judicous heat treatment etc that other teams went through to make them live.

#179 Hank the Deuce

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 04:49

Maybe the injury to Garry is showing now,, the Volvo V8!
Too many of those later GpC cars and subsequently GpA were illegal. Thin guage bodys, bumpers, bolt on panels, massaged panel shape, massaged suspension pick ups. Yet the HDT car got picked for having the sway bar through the splash pan! As did many others. Though was the body shell legal? I have worked on ex HDT cars [Harrys] that were not. The first thinner guage production bodys were UC, though late A9X did shate some engineering with them. The Fords could have raced without roller rockers, less lift less RPM and all the judicous heat treatment etc that other teams went through to make them live.

I had thought that Moffat was out to make a point with the Roller Rock Affair... a flair for the dramatic and all.

Holden's GMP&A division did a run or two of "racing" shells for the A9X - more welds, less bracketing etc etc.


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#180 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:19

I had thought that Moffat was out to make a point with the Roller Rock Affair... a flair for the dramatic and all.

Holden's GMP&A division did a run or two of "racing" shells for the A9X - more welds, less bracketing etc etc.

Reputedly those shells were legal. Normal production materials but as you say all the sundry brackets, seam sealer , deadener etc were left off. That magazine give away car years ago was one of those. Evidently it leaked water!
Ford could have homolgated the rockers, just like Holden did. Though even then they were not a 'proper' roller rocker but a roller tip tin rocker. Which was dumb really. With a Ford you would need to homolgate a taller rocker cover too as all aftermarket rockers do not fit under the tin covers.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 20 July 2013 - 07:24.


#181 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:52

Originally posted by Hank the Deuce
I had thought that Moffat was out to make a point with the Roller Rocker Affair... a flair for the dramatic and all.....


A flair for getting things his way...

Moffat was trying to get the rules changed. It was a major race just before the start of the ATCC series, he was reckoning on getting support from various people within the CAMS to get roller rockers allowed without the production car having them. And to have that change pushed through before the ATCC began.

.....Holden's GMP&A division did a run or two of "racing" shells for the A9X - more welds, less bracketing etc etc.


Did they really have less bracketing?

More welds, certainly. I was told at the time that as you followed your shell down the production line the workers would be offering more for you, that it was hard to prevent them adding stuff. A spot weld weighs nothing, they added plenty of those, but I don't think they would have got away with leaving off brackets. Leaving off sound deadener, sealants etc would have saved weight, of course. And make the cars easier to work with.

#182 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 14:09

Orignally posted by GMACKIE
Good stuff there, Hank. Whenever Kingsley Hibbard's name crops up, I immediately think of 5 Amals on a 6 cyl. Holden, for some reason.


Because your knowledge has a gap in it...

My immediate thought when his name comes up is of a driver 'running in' a GT-HO en route to Sandown for the enduro... getting chased from Seymour... doing 140mph with the pursuit cars wilting behind him... ducking into Broadmeadow and trying to hide in the employee car park.

Edited by Ray Bell, 20 July 2013 - 14:14.


#183 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:19

A flair for getting things his way...

Moffat was trying to get the rules changed. It was a major race just before the start of the ATCC series, he was reckoning on getting support from various people within the CAMS to get roller rockers allowed without the production car having them. And to have that change pushed through before the ATCC began.



Did they really have less bracketing?

More welds, certainly. I was told at the time that as you followed your shell down the production line the workers would be offering more for you, that it was hard to prevent them adding stuff. A spot weld weighs nothing, they added plenty of those, but I don't think they would have got away with leaving off brackets. Leaving off sound deadener, sealants etc would have saved weight, of course. And make the cars easier to work with.

According to reports from the era the things not needed for a racecar was left off. Handbrake cable brackets, brake hose brackets, fuel tank mount brackets, spare wheel mount brackets and the like. While it probably saved little weight it just tidys things up. Brake hose brackets etc were still needed, normally not in the Holden position!
Though for a true production car all that stuff should be there ofcourse. But by then they were hardly a true production car.

#184 DanTra2858

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 21:02

But by then they were hardly a true production car.


Lee are you suggesting that the builders of these cars were not cheating but exploring the rules?

#185 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 23:41

Lee are you suggesting that the builders of these cars were not cheating but exploring the rules?

From my understanding of contempary times from a small distance and reading more recent articles the rules were a little rubbery. And looking at a few of that period cars a decade later most seemed to have the original tank mounts removed, handbrake brackets etc as they got in the way of other stuff. I feel the rules allowed that, though every year was different.
Thin guage body shells were not allowed, or at least no rule said so! Though I guess really nor was seam welding that many had, yet alone welding up cracks that some developed. John Goss is on record of saying that no one begrudged his welding and reinforcing of a fairly tired old Coupe that won Bathurst. Though that could come under repairs, never itemised in the manual either.
Though how those shells cracked like they reputedly did amazes me as they were quite tough cars and take a hell of a pounding in the bush yet a years racing fatigued them to death. That is both Toranas and Falcons. Escorts and the like were quite fragile as road cars and I guess that most must have had the spring towers reinforced along with castor/ sway bar mounts too. The rally cars had a LOT of work to make them more durable.

#186 Leo D

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:40

I recently stumbled across this clip



Although the picture quality is not that good, the content pretty well shows the skills of both Pete Geoghegan and Norm Beechey.

I'm pretty sure this was the debut race for Norm in the HK Monaro early on Sunday. There was another event later in the day from what I remember which Norm did not compete in.

#187 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 13:17

How you can see anything much in that I don't know...

Terrible quality and almost total loss of the cars much of the time.

#188 seldo

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 00:57

From my understanding of contempary times from a small distance and reading more recent articles the rules were a little rubbery. And looking at a few of that period cars a decade later most seemed to have the original tank mounts removed, handbrake brackets etc as they got in the way of other stuff. I feel the rules allowed that, though every year was different.
Thin guage body shells were not allowed, or at least no rule said so! Though I guess really nor was seam welding that many had, yet alone welding up cracks that some developed. John Goss is on record of saying that no one begrudged his welding and reinforcing of a fairly tired old Coupe that won Bathurst. Though that could come under repairs, never itemised in the manual either.
Though how those shells cracked like they reputedly did amazes me as they were quite tough cars and take a hell of a pounding in the bush yet a years racing fatigued them to death. That is both Toranas and Falcons. Escorts and the like were quite fragile as road cars and I guess that most must have had the spring towers reinforced along with castor/ sway bar mounts too. The rally cars had a LOT of work to make them more durable.

When I was driving for Ron Hodgson we had the cars at Joe Camilleri's Grand Prix Autos' workshop at Aspley after practise at Lakeside, and Bob Morris's Torana was up on the hoist. Having a squiz underneath and I saw huge cracks a foot long in the rear floor panels, and when I pointed them out to Ron Missen he just shrugged his shoulders and said that the car was being pensioned off soon.....

#189 Lola5000

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:41

I've been watching the Bathurst 1,000 1977 DVD,I knew Pete was fast at the event ,but up to about lap24 when the oil filter blew he was as high as 4th spot and at the time within striking distance of those leading.

Car was strong ,he still had what it took and well a shame it all turned to .... on lap24.

#190 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 15:09

Are you back, Seldo?

Lee, the rules were 'rubbery' dependent on the influence various parties were able to use to sway the CAMS. Typically, the closer you were to Melbourne the less likely you were to fail in your objectives.

#191 seldo

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 00:18

Are you back, Seldo?

Yep :)

#192 launchpad

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 11:06

IIRC, this story emanated from a race in the 935 at Phillip Island when he brought the car in during a race as it was raining and the wipers weren't working. He was told that the wiper motor had been removed to save weight.


These pics of Big Pete Geoghegan were at Katoomba 1968 preparing for a challenge race - top drivers in borrowed FVees.
Pete did not end up competeing. The car proved to be restricted in interior size.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image
The contenders. Can anyone help with who the drivers were?

Posted Image
Leo Geoghegan and Kevin Bartlett - both trying hard for a victory.

If only he had managed to fit in, I believe the race would have been something to really remember!

All pictures Copyright Rod Mackenzie Collection.

#193 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 13:04

Originally posted by launchpad
These pics of Big Pete Geoghegan were at Katoomba 1968 preparing for a challenge race - top drivers in borrowed FVees.
Pete did not end up competing. The car proved to be restricted in interior size.

Posted Image


Pete did compete, but not in this car... and thanks for the really nice picture of Jack...

Posted Image
The contenders. Can anyone help with who the drivers were?


It's Leo Geoghegan out in front in the Ken Goodwin car, then KB has forged his way in the Mako to be just ahead of Pete in the Rennmax (ent: Barry French) on the left and Max Stewart (Terry O'Neil's Rennmax) on the right. Brian Foley (Revell) and Glynn Scott follow.

As for Pete, he got the bit between the teeth, the report says he pulled a Mustang-style desperate on the second lap to pass two others (obviously Stewart and Bartlett) and chased Leo home. Leo had fastest lap, but it was about five seconds slower than the usual drivers, and he slowed even more to let Pete come alongside on the run to the finish line.

#194 WOT

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Posted Yesterday, 09:11

Absolutely loved this man. Talk about a balls and all driver...
 
Sorry about the quality of these pics..  Exit of Creek Corner
 
WFarm_AA_27.jpg
 
This is how I remember him... entering the Esses
 
WFarm_AA_02.jpg
 
I remember one meeting at the Farm, Pete's engine detonated coming down Hume Straight. I was "flagging" at the end of the straight and as he trickled past my point I jumped the fence to help the car continue on around the fence and off the track. I made sure the car was secure - no fire, etc and by the time I'd completed my check, Pete was out of the car and just said, "F*%^, th-that's expensive!" and then bowed to the bugler playing the Last Post.
 
Another time, but less expensive... entering Polo
 
WFarm_AA_22.jpg

Edited by WOT, Yesterday, 09:13.