Jump to content


Photo

Alta racers


  • Please log in to reply
491 replies to this topic

#351 Malcolm Schofield

Malcolm Schofield
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 03 December 2009 - 15:55

Dudley Gagahan's name is mentioned in the text for MVS351 below. On another thread I was interested to find out more about him most of his racing library and a bugatti came to australia.
The library was sold at auction and certainly it was probably the best selection of stuff never seen in australia before lots of Brooklands stuff 100's of motor racing programmes etc etc.
I probably finished with 1/3 of what was offered missing out on Brooklands year books that went back to the UK I did get a set of prewar MG magazines.
But I am still keen to learn more about Dudley Gagahan and what exactly he did collect
terry

The history of MVS351, once retired from GrandPrix racing is not unique. As with many Altas and HWMS, these once glorious Grand Prix cars were converted and modified for road and track use as their chassis' were far more sophisticated than a standard road car and thus gave them great handling. By the late 1960s MVS351 had fallen into disrepair. Its story continues when one horns Capauldi commissioned Dudley Gagahan to find him an Alta Grand Prix car. As luck would have it, in approximately 1968, Gagahan located andbought from a Mr Adams of Putnam, Nr Guildford, the ex- Gordon Watson Alta. Purchased with this car was MVS351 Although semi- derelict with no engine and gearbox, it was instantly recognisable as an Alta F2 Grand Prix car. Capauldi, it appears, then decided against running an Alta and instructed Dudley Gagahan to sell on the Gordon Watson car with Gagahan's company retaining MVS351 This was then duly sold to an enthusiastic employee George Hampson. However, Hampson never had the opportunity to achieve his dream of restoring this superb car to its former glory. Instead, it was sold to its last owner who retained and campaigned this great car in sprints and hill climbs as well as using it regularly as a road and rally car throughout his near thirty years of ownership. Powered by its straight six 3.8 litre Xk Jaguar power unit, this incredible sports racing car has a superb power to weight ratio, giving it awe-inspiring performance and handling. With extremely attractive two seater coachwork adapted from its Gp single- seater bodywork finished in British Racing Green, hide interior and black tonneau cover, also supplied with this vehicle is its spare 3.4 litre block for the faint hearted amongst you! Estimate

I am interested in your Mr Adams, did you know him? And did he have a Fraser Nash Le Manns


Advertisement

#352 MVS 151

MVS 151
  • New Member

  • 7 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 31 January 2010 - 18:28

Dear MVS,

Where is there any evidence of "3 Spare" F2 Chassis? From where is this quoted?
Also, are you positive the your chassis went from Clifford to Gaihagen/Hampson at Rees Brothers?

David.


Dear David
I have replied directly to you with any information I have but I dont know if you got this. Have you changed your email address ?
My chassis did not go directly from Clifford to Geoghan/Hampson. If Clifford was correct in saying that he bought and sold my chassis approx 1965 then it went from him to M.A.V.Adams who had the ex Gordon Watson car at that time. Clifford told me that he never actually saw the chassis and cannot remember from whom he bought it - although probably not Tommy McGrath. McGrath seems to have piloted most Altas out of Ireland including apparently the ex Titterington Alta.
Regards

#353 MVS 151

MVS 151
  • New Member

  • 7 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 31 January 2010 - 18:35

I am interested in your Mr Adams, did you know him? And did he have a Fraser Nash Le Manns


Sorry. Only just picked this up. Dont know him and cant find out anything about him except that he raced the ex Gordon Watson F2 Alta within the VSCC apparently during late 1960s. Hugh Clifford told me that Adams is now dead. He lived at "Alta Cottage" and his full name was M.A.V.Adams (dont know his christian names)
Regards

#354 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 31 January 2010 - 22:53

Michael, I believe

#355 john ruston

john ruston
  • Member

  • 909 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 02 February 2010 - 17:40

We have photo of 2 litre blown 2 seater Alta racing at Crystal palace in 38.

Has anyone details of the meeting and any other pre war racing history information for any of the 2 litre 2 seater cars

#356 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 02 February 2010 - 18:57

13/8 20-mile handicap for Crystal Palace Cup
9 Abecassis (Bennett's)
12 K Gammon

8/10 10-mile scratch for Imperial Plate
12 Abecassis
16 Gammon
17 J Mitchell (DNA)
18 C J D Pink

#357 john ruston

john ruston
  • Member

  • 909 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 02 February 2010 - 20:43

Thank you David,the FIA Geneve wants a list of races the cars were involved with Pre War.

#358 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 02 February 2010 - 22:15

I'll see what more I can dig out

#359 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 03 February 2010 - 06:18

This is the source of the information I provided for Crystal Palace
http://wsrp.ic.cz/prewar.html
You could try other years

Advertisement

#360 john ruston

john ruston
  • Member

  • 909 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 03 February 2010 - 12:05

Thanks for that,again!

Enough to solve immediate situation.

#361 Peter Morley

Peter Morley
  • Member

  • 1,864 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 03 February 2010 - 23:23

Thank you David,the FIA Geneve wants a list of races the cars were involved with Pre War.


Isn't it strange that now the FIA don't need to know about a cars history (for HTP papers) they are asking for far more documentation than when they were interested in the history!

#362 john ruston

john ruston
  • Member

  • 909 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:32

They want to know everything about all aspects of the car.
A few weeks ago we were asked for underbonnet shots from period for a 1930 car.
Everyone in Brooklands Paddock had a startched collar and digital camera?
Latest question is that only long vents on rear engine cover are acceptable on 904's with 6 cyl engines.
You must make a new rear cover and replace original if you use a 6 cyl engine despite in this case a cover with elephant ears being used in period
The car in question ran with a 6 cyl engine in 69 Tour de France but can we find a picture of engine cover up with small ears and six cyl.
All of a sudden lot to be said for buying one of these new continuation,fake copy cars as there seems to be no questions.

#363 Peter Morley

Peter Morley
  • Member

  • 1,864 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 04 February 2010 - 15:44

Might be difficult to register something like a Dixon car where he padlocked the bonnet shut so that no one could see under it...
How can you show when a photo was taken?? Presumably a statement from those who were involved at the time isn't good enough?
As you say much easier to take a non-original car than convert an original one to the supposedly original specification - perhaps they'll end up being worth more than all those dodgy original cars!!

#364 Stephen W

Stephen W
  • Member

  • 11,543 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 04 February 2010 - 15:52

How can you show when a photo was taken?? Presumably a statement from those who were involved at the time isn't good enough!


I doubt that the bulk of photographers from the Pre-War days are still around to provide details of their photos. Also all you have to do is scan a couple of old photos in and start to cut and paste them together!

I wonder if Motor Sport magazine might provide some useful data to back things up?

:wave:



#365 john ruston

john ruston
  • Member

  • 909 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 04 February 2010 - 15:53

We have original letters in period and even these are questioned.

On Altas,Who is this man Dennis Jenkinson?

Beggers belief and it's Geneve not UK where this stuff is comming from.

#366 john ruston

john ruston
  • Member

  • 909 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 04 February 2010 - 22:31

There are very few underbonnet shots of any of the race cars from Pre War

#367 racingreen

racingreen
  • Member

  • 57 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 19 March 2010 - 22:40

There are very few underbonnet shots of any of the race cars from Pre War


In the book Les Grand Prix De Provence Et De Marseille by Maurice. Louche, Peter Whithead is pictured driving F2/4 in the 1952 French GP at Rouen. I had always presumed he had driven F2/5.
Can anyone elaborate on this one off drive in F2/4 ?

#368 fivestar

fivestar
  • Member

  • 283 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 17 May 2010 - 04:50

Hi David,
Nearly two years now and with Ed not getting any younger, any chance you can give him a call and see how #57 is progressing or is Ed still fiddling with it?

rgds - Mike

I spoke with Ed within the past week and he is 'fiddling with it'


The car in the photo above was at Goodwood and appears to have Elva front wheels!



#369 terry mcgrath

terry mcgrath
  • Member

  • 479 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 22 June 2010 - 08:52

David McKinney may be able to shed some light on this one

car advertised in NZ "Beaded Wheels" magazine #291 april/may 2008
"Cooper alta sports racing car 1951 2 seater full width body tel 09 5342245"

#370 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 22 June 2010 - 11:51

Locally built up from a 500, and now I believe in the UK

#371 David Birchall

David Birchall
  • Member

  • 2,978 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:03

Hi David,
Nearly two years now and with Ed not getting any younger, any chance you can give him a call and see how #57 is progressing or is Ed still fiddling with it?

rgds - Mike


Sorry for the delay in responding.
I have not spoken with Ed but I know he is finishing the restoration of a Talbot 105 for a friend and this has delayed his getting to #57 by about ten years... The Talbot should be finished this summer.

#372 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 14 July 2010 - 11:58

Have just re-read all 19 pages, without finding the answer I was looking for

The ex-Scragg/Kenya/Chris Ball car made several appearances with various traders in the early 1990s but I've lost track of it since

Does anyone know where it is?
(Or where it was at any time in the last 15 years?)

#373 Dutchy

Dutchy
  • Member

  • 645 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 14 July 2010 - 13:09

Have just re-read all 19 pages, without finding the answer I was looking for

The ex-Scragg/Kenya/Chris Ball car made several appearances with various traders in the early 1990s but I've lost track of it since

Does anyone know where it is?
(Or where it was at any time in the last 15 years?)


I thought I saw it at Goodwood either last year or the year before. IIRC Christopher Lunn was driving it.

RPG 418?

#374 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 14 July 2010 - 15:31

Quite right - on checking another file I found I had noted that (well, 2005)

Thanks

#375 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 7,903 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 14 July 2010 - 20:47

Yes, RPG 418 was at the Revival last year driven by Christopher Lunn. Unfortunately nobody was with it so I couldn't ask if I could sit in it and fulfil a 50 year old dream.

#376 fivestar

fivestar
  • Member

  • 283 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 07 December 2010 - 23:50

An interesting article on Luis Manduca, who has previously been mentioned in this thread. Does anybody recall the name of his "establishment" in Paddington, which he ran from mid 50s to 1979.
Michael [5*]


http://img34.imagesh...luismanduca.png

Edited by fivestar, 07 December 2010 - 23:57.


#377 john ruston

john ruston
  • Member

  • 909 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 08 December 2010 - 01:59

We now have engine 63S along with car.

#378 fivestar

fivestar
  • Member

  • 283 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 08 December 2010 - 23:39

We now have engine 63S along with car.


And what will become of engine 54S?

#379 john ruston

john ruston
  • Member

  • 909 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 09 December 2010 - 01:17

Still with me .

Advertisement

#380 Jagjon

Jagjon
  • Member

  • 88 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 12 December 2010 - 03:08

I would send you some photos but I hAVE not WORKED OUTHOW TO DO THAT.
How to start ?
My cousin John Bateson had been in th VSCC Concoursfor some time our respected fathers had a 4.5 and a Speed SIx Bentlys. ( see Will Schofield Flikr ).
After the death of my father John and I boughrt the Hugh Hunter car of Hugh Clifford.
We raced at the Seaman trophy 1961. a man looking at the car gave me then ame of a man in Penge who had a badge of a Alta. When contacted he sent us the badge and the adress of a petrol station in Penge. We arrived a this Esso station and behind a lot of scrap was DPG. We payed them 200 quid and took anything we liked.
At the time we lived in Rochdale, we found it had not had any spark plugs fox many years and the engine was seazed. As we were enginers this did not present a great problem.
The car had no interior but was not in that bad condition,no paint on the body and rust damage on the chasis.
We Started a major rebuild in our new garage in Moberl Cheshire, then along came the Abacasis car with a broken crank again from Hugh Clifford. The crank wasr eplaced Thanks to a freind who worked fora large aicraft manufacture in Manchester
At this time we had 3 Altas 1 q type MG (X Harvey Nobel ) 1 JW Maserati, 1 Cooper Diamler s/c v8 ( Death trap ) and 2 lotus, 1 Ford twin cam formulat junior and the x Jim Clark Elite2.5 Climax Elite.
Then it came the end of a miss spent youth wedings children ect.
The Altas were sold, Peter Mores the Bentlys to my everlasting regret to Vintage cars of New York.
DPG was sent to a man in Bawtry Doncaster who paid us a deposit then died we never got paid for the car. William Body of Motor Sport told me it had been stolen and sent to OZ.

In about 1963 I recall seeing what was supposed to be the Abecassis car in Saltney near Chester at the house of Bob Williams .
It certainly looked identical to photos of the single seater prewar car which I had copies of in books or magazines.
I always understood he had this car from Hugh Clifford who he seemed to know well, and I recall mention of it having a broken crankshaft.
I thought he had it in his possession for years afterwards, certainly into the mid 1960's.
He worked at the aircraft factory at Broughton, so I'm wondering where he and that car fits into this story.

#381 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 12 December 2010 - 07:09

That'll be Abecassis's pre-war single-seater, 61IS, which Hugh Clifford raced in 1962, and which Bob Williams still had in 1993. He died about that time, but the car's still around





#382 Ted Walker

Ted Walker
  • Member

  • 1,432 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 12 December 2010 - 08:32

David its being restored by Graham Galliers

#383 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 12 December 2010 - 08:40

Yes, that's the last name on my list

#384 fivestar

fivestar
  • Member

  • 283 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 13 January 2011 - 23:19


Can anybody identify this photo. The car with #74 is obviously one of the GP cars as may be the darker car ahead of it. A who, when and where would be deeply appreciated.
thanks - Mike [5*]

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

#385 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,403 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 13 January 2011 - 23:41

You blokes might be interested...

Taken by Peter de Vries and provided by Peter McKay, this is Syd Anderson in the Alta that he had in Western Australia in the late fifties:

Posted Image

#386 ken devine

ken devine
  • Member

  • 741 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 14 January 2011 - 05:34

The car in the first photo looks very similar to the Anderson car in the second photo,this car was originally owned by Robert/Roberta
Cowell and was bought to Australia by Gib Barrat in 1955 it is now owned by historic racer Julia D'Baldanza and is either in the UK or
Italy.

#387 Bauble

Bauble
  • Member

  • 1,040 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 14 January 2011 - 14:05

The car in front of the ALTA looks very much like the King/Wilkes Rover F2 car first raced in 1948???? Later owned and raced extensively by Frank Lockhart.
I do not recall the car ever competing abroad so the picture is probably from an UK event. This might help pin down the venue and date.


#388 Dutchy

Dutchy
  • Member

  • 645 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 14 January 2011 - 16:05

I don't agree - I'm fairly certain both cars are Altas

#389 fivestar

fivestar
  • Member

  • 283 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 15 January 2011 - 01:12


I have been informed that the light coloured car is the Stokes/Cowell F2 car, whilst the darker one ahead is the Watson F2 car.
Now where and when?
ciao - Mike [5*]

#390 Bauble

Bauble
  • Member

  • 1,040 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 15 January 2011 - 15:08

I don't agree - I'm fairly certain both cars are Altas


OK! I agree I was too 'asty, and you don't get nowhere if you're too 'asty!

Dashboard and steering wheel seem pretty identical.

#391 Bauble

Bauble
  • Member

  • 1,040 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 15 January 2011 - 15:36

I have been informed that the light coloured car is the Stokes/Cowell F2 car, whilst the darker one ahead is the Watson F2 car.
Now where and when?
ciao - Mike [5*]


Both cars and drivers were competing at Boreham in 1951 in a Formla Libre race finishing Stokes 7th and Watson 8th. the picture might be from that meeting as it looks like an old airfield site. Salvadori also drove an ALTA but rtetired.

Any help?

#392 fivestar

fivestar
  • Member

  • 283 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 15 January 2011 - 23:44


Thanks for that. This photo would appear to be from the same meeting as the car behind the HWM is the Stokes Alta. Now who is driving the HWM?
Mike [5*]

URL=http://img716.imageshack.us/i/16380818097901714241440.jpg/]Posted Image[/URL]


#393 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 16 January 2011 - 07:52

Oscar Moore in the HWM, I would think

#394 Bauble

Bauble
  • Member

  • 1,040 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 16 January 2011 - 10:54

Oscar Moore in the HWM, I would think



Oscar was also in the race mentioned earlier, finishing in 5th. place. The old Nissen huts in the background mean it is almost certain an old airfield, so Boreham fits there.

How many times did all three compete in the same race is of course open for discussion.

#395 racingreen

racingreen
  • Member

  • 57 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 16 January 2011 - 23:33

You blokes might be interested...

Taken by Peter de Vries and provided by Peter McKay, this is Syd Anderson in the Alta that he had in Western Australia in the late fifties:

Posted Image



F2/3 ex Anthony Stokes, with 2 stage superchargng fitted by the works after the car's appearance in Hammer's "Mask of Dust".

#396 racingreen

racingreen
  • Member

  • 57 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 16 January 2011 - 23:39

Can anybody identify this photo. The car with #74 is obviously one of the GP cars as may be the darker car ahead of it. A who, when and where would be deeply appreciated.
thanks - Mike [5*]

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


No 74 is F2/3 with Anthony Stokes. Gordan Watson in F2/2 is smiling back at Stokes.


#397 cooper997

cooper997
  • Member

  • 699 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 17 January 2011 - 11:25

I was going through an old Australian Motor Sports issue yesterday and found a one page article on the then Bib Stillwell owned, ex-Whitehead Alta chassis. States Bib had already had it for about 4 years and is the one he put the Holden engine in. The article shows 2 photos of the bodyless car.

If any Alta enthusiasts want a scan, just pm me your email address.

Stephen

#398 fivestar

fivestar
  • Member

  • 283 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 15 April 2011 - 09:37

The car sprintintg at Ramsgate with #121 in post #139 is an Alta 1100cc 24s.
"The Alta No 121 Sprinting at Ramsgate is superchared 1100 chassis number 25R1S Registration number DPJ929 .Originally supplied to A.C.Lace .This was the last 1100 constructed .Subsequent owners were Millard, May 36,Miller 39.Postwar it appeared at Goodwood and Brighton in the hands of Bristow.During the early fifties the supercharger was removed and four amals fitted .The nose panel was also altered to the form seen in the Ramsgate picture.I do not now who was driving it on this occasion.Subsequently offered for sale by Character cars in Croyden. McAlpine-Downie owned it during the late fifties..In 1961 it was with Dan Margulies who sold it to Allan Moore,then to Paul Jaye, to David Baldock in 1981.Now with Bob Thredder.

Edited by fivestar, 18 April 2011 - 01:56.


#399 fivestar

fivestar
  • Member

  • 283 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 24 April 2011 - 07:57

John,

As you have both engines #54s and 63s, can you please advise whether there is any evidence that at some stage either one had had a comprehensive blow up ie crankcase/block had been welded up?

many thanks - Mike [5*]

Still with me .



Advertisement

#400 Graham Gauld

Graham Gauld
  • Member

  • 1,118 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 24 April 2011 - 11:22

I have been informed that the light coloured car is the Stokes/Cowell F2 car, whilst the darker one ahead is the Watson F2 car.
Now where and when?
ciao - Mike [5*]




If you mean where the photo was taken I cannot help you but if you want to know where the Watson Formula 2 car is now it has been in Scotland for the past thirty odd years owned by Andrew Fletcher who ran it once or twice at Ingliston. This is how it looks today.

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us