48 replies to this topic

[Don Capps]

Did anyone notice that the FIA seemed to change the definition of what a Grande Épreuve was?

In the 1970 Yellow Book, those events considered to be a Grande Épreuve and listed as such were: Monaco GP, Indianapolis, Belgian GP, Dutch GP, British GP, German GP, and the Italian GP. Non of the other GP/WDC events were listed on the calendar as a Grande Épreuve, nor was Le Mans. And, yes, the French GP was one of those missing.

Fast forward to 1985 and it seems each F1 WDC round is now a Grande Épreuve along with all the rally championship rounds.

Did I miss something? Did Winston Smith beginworking at the FIA in 1984? This does not compute with the concept of what a Grande Épreuve was when I was growing up and being a nit-picker.

[Rob29]

It certainly seems to have been redefined over the years. I have seen a pre-war list which included Le Mans & ArdsTT. Only explanation for French GP being absent in 1970 I can think of is that the GP del'ACF was a Grande Epreuve but the 3rd GP de France was not?

[ensign14]

Never knew there was a definition of Grande Epreuve...was France missed out because it was THE Grand Prix and the only one worthy of bearing the name?

What were the practical advantages of being a Grande Epreuve? Anything to do with graded drivers?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by ensign14
Never knew there was a definition of Grande Epreuve...was France missed out because it was THE Grand Prix and the only one worthy of bearing the name?

What were the practical advantages of being a Grande Epreuve? Anything to do with graded drivers?

We've kicked this around before:

http://forums.atlasf...ghlight=epreuve

but if we go down that route again we're in danger of losing Don's original question of when they changed the definition.

There was also a second level called "Épeuves a priorité"- look for a post of mine in the wartime racing thread and also one somewhere by Alessandro.

[Holger Merten]

BTW: Who came up with the name Grande Épreuve and why.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
BTW: Who came up with the name Grande Épreuve and why.

The same chap who invented the word Silberpfeile?

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
We've kicked this around before:

When we booted this puppy around before we seemed to advance the cause a bit, but -- per usual when dealing with the CSI it seems -- we never got it exactly pinned to the mat.

Upon reflection, it seems that when the old WCfD was dissolved in 1980 and the new FIA F1 WDC was instituted, they simply redefined term "Grande Épreuve" as any round in the F1 (or WRC)championship. Naturally, this was quite at odds with what it had been beforehand, but with Winston Smith dilligently at work doing his master's bidding, everyone soon fell into line and it was now incorporated into the Official History as having always been as such.

Just like the birth of motor sports seems to spring forth in the year 1950 in the shape of formula one.....

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
BTW: Who came up with the name Grande Épreuve and why.

Possibly the President (or whatever the top man was called) of the AIACR in the 20s. The meaning was that it was the most important race in each country,and had priority of dates. Thus the RAC TT was the British one long before there was a British GP.

[gerrit stevens]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Holger Merten
BTW: Who came up with the name Grande Épreuve and why.

Originally posted by Rob29
Possibly the President (or whatever the top man was called) of the AIACR in the 20s. The meaning was that it was the most important race in each country,and had priority of dates. Thus the RAC TT was the British one long before there was a British GP.

Here is a question I always wanted to ask.
Who "invented" the Grande Épreuve status and how is it determined. Is there any official status.

One of Hans Etzrodt's latest changes was to take away this status for the Monaco GP's 1930, 1931 and 1932 (and 1933). Also the Swiss GP 1934 was dropped.
This last one I can't understand. This GP had all the big teams in its entry list. However only one of the three Alfa-Romeo cars started.
At least two Grande Epreuves did have a less entry.
Monaco did not have Mercedes and Auto Union in its entry list at all.
In Belgium the Mercedes cars did not start and only one Maserati started.

Also I wonder why the ACF races 1895-1903 were not credited Grand Epreuve status just like the American Grande Prize.

Grande Epreuve means literally Great Trial with the meaning of Great Competition/Race and that's what these races were.


Gerrit Stevens

[Hans Etzrodt]

Check this thread http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=56704 about the Monaco GP status. It may contain answers to some questions posted here. Therefore I won't say more at this point but wait in case should there be more questions.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
Also I wonder why the ACF races 1895-1903 were not credited Grand Epreuve status just like the American Grande Prize.

Gerrit Stevens

Because they pre-date the formation of the AIACR?

Plus, of course, their numbering as GPs de l'ACF was retrospective and the term Grand Prix was not actually coined for a motor race until 1906, so calling them Grandes Epreuves would be rather superfluous.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
...the term Grand Prix was not actually coined for a motor race until 1906, so calling them Grandes Epreuves would be rather superfluous.

Hear! Hear!

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

Because they pre-date the formation of the AIACR?

Plus, of course, their numbering as GPs de l'ACF was retrospective and the term Grand Prix was not actually coined for a motor race until 1906, so calling them Grandes Epreuves would be rather superfluous.

That does not necessarily mean they can not be called Grande Epreuve in retrospect.
Remember this happened to many major events.
The Grand Slams in tennis, the Olympic wintergames of 1924 were by no mean called olympic in 1924, etc.

Also the term Grande Epreuve does not have to be linked to Grand Prix.
I believe the TT of Man and Indianapolis were also Grande Epreuves.

BTW when was the AIACR instituted.


Gerrit Stevens

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
BTW when was the AIACR instituted.


Gerrit Stevens

1904. It absorbed much of the structure of racing administration which had been established by the ACF, notably the CSI, which was originally a committee set up by the French.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
1904. It absorbed much of the structure of racing administration which had been established by the ACF, notably the CSI, which was originally a committee set up by the French.

You know, I have really begun to ponder that date lately. At one point, I was pretty sure that was the date, especially in lieu of the discussions held amongst the Auto Clubs with entries in the Coupe Internationale (Gordon Bennett Cup). However, I haven't seen anything really concrete -- bearing my mind my senility at time -- to establish that in the form of any solid evidence. However, after initially dismissing a 1921 or -- morel likely -- 1922 date, I am now edging towards the latter and hedging my bet.

I am convinced that the Auto Clubs had some sort of "arrangement" as a result of the discussions in Germany. Exactly what form it was is less than clear -- at least to me. Certainly there was some level of formal or informal cooperation and coordination amongst the clubs, but it may have been in the form of an ad hoc coordinating committee. Then again, I could be completely in error and the AIACR did come into being in the 1904/1905 timeframe. Something happened during those discussions which may have resulted in the AIACR, then or later, to come into being.

I have found little concrete to date the AIACR prior to 1922, but I have found a number of references to the AIACR and the CSI in the 1922 timeframe. Had the AIACR been created in 1904, it is logical that the CSI and the International Sporting Code would have been created within a short period after that date. That did not happen, however, until 1922 and 1925 respectively.

I look at the information and I can see getting two conflicting answers. Some times you just sit and look and other times you just stand and look....

Hans? Anyone else?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Gustav Braunbeck: Braunbeck's Sport-Lexikon, 1910, reprint 1994, pg. 118 On June 20, 1904, a meeting of the International Automobile Clubs was held in Homburg (Germany) under the chairmanship of the Duke of Ratibor. Baron von Schrenck-Notzing, Chairman of the Bavarian A.C. informed about the foundation of the "Bleichenröderpreis" in the amount of 10,000 Mark.

Hans Stuck und E.G. Burggaller: Das Autobuch, 1933, pg. 101 On the occasion of the Gordon Bennett Race an international meeting was held on June 20, 1904 at Homburg (Germany) through the initiative of the "Deutscher Automobil-Club". The Association Internationale des Automobile Clubs Reconnus was formed at this meeting and besides the German Automobile Club the founding members of the A.I.A.C.R. were: Automobile Club de France - Royal Automobile Club, London - Koninglike Nederlandsche Automobilclub - Royal Automobile-Club de Belgique - Automobile Club Turin (for Italy) - Automobile Club of Switzerland - Automobile Club de Espana - Automobile Club of America - Automobile Club of Russia - Kongelig Dansk Automobile Club - Automobile Club de Portugal...

Automobil und Motorrad Chronik, 1976, N.2, pg.12 In June of 1904, at a conference held by the European Automobile Clubs, whose amalgamation became known as the Association Internationale des Automobile Clubs Reconnus (A.I.A.C.R.), it was decided to stage a "Grand Prix", which was to run parallel to the Gordon Bennett Race...

Who can match the foundation of the A.I.A.C.R. with
a) 3 English language sources, and
b) 3 French language sources.

[Don Capps]

Hans, per usual.

However, I have not seen any contemporary references references to the AIACR in any of the nosing around I have done. That may be simply a matter of poor research materials, but I have seen nothing in the AAA Contest Board material relating to the Vanderbilt Cup & Grand Prize events, not even in passing. That surprises me, but because there is so much missing of the Contest Board archives that is not much hang your hat on.

As someone who has long been a supporter of the 1904 -- the references brovided by Hans are some that I have filed away somewhere in my "stuff" -- date, it is the lack of any clear references during this period to the AIACR that bothers me. I keep thinking that it is merely me not looking in the right places.

Also, if the AIACR "staged" or played a role in the creation the 1906 Grand Prix, I find it odd that T.A.S.O. Mathieson -- or even David Hodges for that matter -- seems to completely omit any mention of the AIACR nor make any reference to it. Again, maybe it is simply another case of me looking without seeing.....

[Hans Etzrodt]

In the 1906 AUTOMOBIL-REVUE reports about the Grand Prix, pre race, race and post race, I never saw a reference to the A.I.A.C.R. But the A. C. F. as organizer is quite often mentioned in the text.

Unfortunately I have very little primary source material prior to 1919 and it might remain so for quite some time because the 1919-1933 period keeps me occupied most of the time.

[Henk]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Who can match the foundation of the A.I.A.C.R. with
a) 3 English language sources, and
b) 3 French language sources.

How about a Dutch source - in French.…..

Contribution by G. Véron, secretary of AIACR, to the Gedenkboek van het 25-jarig bestaan der Koninklijke Nederlandsche Automobiel Club (book published in 1923 at the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the Royal Dutch Automobile Club)

Motor sport is not mentioned:


Note sur l’A.I.A.C.R.

L’Association internationale des Automobile-Clubs Reconnus a été fondée le 20 Juin 1904, dans le but de créer entre les Automobile-Clubs de tous les pays un lien fédératif destiné à servir les intérêts communs, matériels et moraux, de l’Automobilisme, et à développer le tourisme dans tous les pays.

D’après les Statuts de l’Association, chaque pays ne peut être représenté que par un seul Club, qui est obligatoirement l’intermédiaire des autre Clubs du pays dans les relations internationals.

Au moment de sa fondation, l’Association ne comprenait que onze Clubs représentant les pays suivants: Allemagne, Autriche, Belgique, Danemark, Espagne, Etats-Unis, France, Grande-Bretagne, Portugal, Russie, Suisse.

Mais, peu à peu, d’autres Clubs vinrent se joindre à l’Association, qui comprend actuellement les Clubs de 25 pays. A ceux mentionnés ci-dessus, sont venus s’ajouter ceux de: Hollande. Hongrie, Italie, Suède, Roumanie, Egypte, Norvège, Japon, Chine, Cuba, Finlande, Pologne, Uruguay, Tcheco-Slovaquie.

Il serait trop long d’énumérer les résultats obtenus par l’A.I.A.C.R. au cours de ses réunions. Nous nous bornerons à citer les suivants:

Au point de vue de la circulation internationale, l’A.I.A.C.R. a provoqué et préparé la réunion de la Conférence Diplomatique Internationale qui s’est tenue à Paris en Octobre 1909, et qui a abouti à l’adoption du certificat international de route et des signaux d’obstacle en usage dans le plupart des pays d’Europe.

C’est surtout grâce à l’activité de l’Association Internationale que les touristes peuvent bénéficier, au cours de leurs voyages internationaux, des avantages que leur procurent les triptyques et les carnets de passages en douane.

M. le Baron de Zuylen de Nyevelt, élu Président de l’Association au moment de sa fondation, dirige encore aujourd’hui ses travaux, avec un dévouement qui ne s’est démenti un jour depuis dix-neuf ans. Il a été admirablement secondé par M. Edmond Chaix, qui a présidé les deux commissions créés au sein de l’A.I.A.C.R.: la Commission Spéciale douanière et la Commission Permanente de Circulation. C’est grâce à leurs efforts que les nombreuses difficultés ont été surmontées et que les touristes peuvent trouver aujourd-hui tant de facilités pour leurs voyages internationaux.

G. Véron,
Secrétaire de l’A.I.A.C.R.

[The Koninklijke Nederlandsche Automobiel Club became an AIACR member in 1907]

[Don Capps]

Henk,

Merci!

Now, when this is linked with the material that Hans has found and the other materials that have also popped up here and there, we are, perhaps, now on very firm ground with the 1904 date. Plus, it tracks with the basic purpose of the AIACR -- which was not motor sports.

Sorry, but if you don't ask questions......

[Hans Etzrodt]

Thank you, Henk. An important contribution.

Who of our TNFers will be kind enough to translate that into English for the rest of us? Please?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Thank you, Henk. An important contribution.

Who of our TNFers will be kind enough to translate that into English for the rest of us? Please?

There's one passage I'm not really clear on, but this is the main thrust of it:

The International Association of Recognized Automibile Clubs was founded on June 20, 1904, with the aim of creating a federative bond between the Car Clubs of all countries, intended to serve the common, material and moral interests, of Automobilism, and to develop tourism in all countries. According to the the Statutes of the Association, each country can be represented only by one Club, which is obligatorily the representative of other Clubs in its own country in international relations. At the time of its foundation, the Association included or recognised only eleven Clubs, representing the following countries: Germany, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Spain, The United States, France, Great Britain, Portugal, Russia and Switzerland. But, little by little, other Clubs joined the Association, which currently includes or recognises the Clubs of 25 countries. In addition to those mentioned above, those came from: Holland. Hungary, Italy, Sweden, Romania, Egypt, Norway, Japan, China, Cuba, Finland,Poland, Uruguay and Czechoslovakia. It would take too long to enumerate the results obtained by the A.I.A.C.R. during its meetings. We will restrict ourselves to quoting the following: From the point of view of international traffic, the meeting of the A.I.A.C.R. and International Diplomatic Conference which was held in Paris in October 1909, which led to the adoption of the "international certificate of road" [??] and the standardization of traffic signs in the majority of the countries of Europe. It is especially thanks to the activitities of the Association that tourists can benefit, during their international journeys, from [something! Customs carnets, possibly?] Baron de Zuylen de Nyevelt, elected President of the Association at the time of its foundation, today still carries on his work, with a devotion which is undimmed after nineteen years. He was admirably assisted by Mr. Edmond Chaix, who chaired the two commissions created within the A.I.A.C.R.: the CustomsSpecial Subcommittee and Standing Committee on Traffic. It is thanks to their efforts that the many difficulties were overcome and that tourists today can find so many facilities for their international journeys.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
...this is the main thrust of it:...

Richard, the multi lateral language genius. And Henk for finding it. Thank you.

[Vitesse2]

No habla espanol ..... except for "Cerveza, por favor" of course! In any language, it is always essential to know how to get a beer

[Hans Etzrodt]

Possibly the following statement will lead us to the beginning of the term Grande Épreuve. After the CSI was formed, one of their duties was to determine the international racing calendar and determine which events were to be given preferential treatment, the so called Grandes Épreuves. According to Denis Jenkinson's article below the CSI was formed in 1922, which means –as I understand it– that the AIACR did not get involved in international racing matters before the CSI was formed.

G.N. Georgano – Editor –: The Encyclopaedia of Motor Sport, 1971, Dennis Jenkinson: pg.19 In 1922 the Association Internationale des Automobile Clubs Reconnus or A.I.A.C.R. formed an International Sporting Commission or C.S.I. to specialize in looking after motor racing and all its aspects, leaving other international matters such as roads, touring and frontiers to the parent body. One of the tasks of the commission was to draw up rules for racing, in particular Grand Prix racing, as this was the most important category. Other types of racing were left to the individual countries, and in fact, the Sporting Commission made a point of delegating authority to national clubs where racing of a national character was concerned.…As long as the general rules of racing were observed national clubs could organize any type of event they liked, but if it was to be of an international status then it had to conform with A.I.A.C.R. rules.

Richard, possibly a visit to the holy halls of Beaulieu?

[Don Capps]

Actually, some of the earlier editons of the "FIA Yellow Books" do a very good -- and accurate -- job and giving the background to the CSI and the International Sporting Code. The article by Jenks' fits this information like a glove.

The Automobile Club of America (ACA) was the US representative on the AIACR in 1904. In 1926, the AIACR -- at the urging of the ACA and the American Automobile Association (AAA), changed its bylaws to allow the ACN to designate another club to be the ASN. The AAA Contest Board Official Bulletin No. 26, dated 2 November 1926, on pages two and three, outlines the arrangement worked out by the ACA and the AAA's Contest Board. A member of the AAA Contest Board did not actually attend a CSI meeting until 11 October 1928, when the specifics of a new international racing formula were discussed and adopted.

One reason I was delighted to read the material provided by Henks was that it was a reminder that sometimes a blinding flash of the obvious isn't. As I read it, it dawned on me once more that the AIACR was far more interested in other things than racing. Had I taken the time to think, it was obvious that the location of June 1904 meeting was happenstance. Taking advantage of a gathering at which the leadership of a number of the national automobile clubs would be present, the issues of real and vital interest to the automobile clubs -- tourism, standardization issues, lobbying efforts and the like, were discussed and an organization formed to serve as the means to achieve those ends.

It is also apparent that sporting issues were not much of a priority, there seeming to be no formal racing commission or committee -- until 1922 and the creation of the CSI.

As the use of the term "Grande Épreuve" as a term to designate certain events on the International Sporting Calendar, Hans has always had that one nailed in my opinion. It is just that the CSI, and later the FISA and the WMSC, kept tinkering with the definition.

[Hans Etzrodt]

1920/21 A.I.A.C.R. Meeting
Allgemeine Automobil-Zeitung, (Wien), October 23, 1921, Nr. 43, pg. 12

Meeting of the A.I.A.C.R. On October 13, the A.I.A.C.R. held their fall conference in the building of the ACF under the chairmanship of the President, Baron de Zuylen. The Austrian Automobile Club was re-admitted as a member. The re-admission had been delayed for so long until Austria’s admittance in the League of Nations was completed. Because Hungary and Germany have not yet been admitted into the League of Nations, the clubs of both countries are at this time still not accepted in the world association of the automobile clubs.

In the foreseeable future it can hardly be expected for Germany to be admitted into the League of Nations and it appears questionable, whether this is a desirable goal for Germany even under the present conditions. The present situation in the German automobile sport is still such, that German drivers cannot participate at events of the Entente countries[occupation forces] with the exception of Italy, but German cars possibly could do so when driven by non German drivers.

During the meeting a new executive committee was elected with representatives from France, Great Britain, Belgium, Spain, United States, Switzerland and Czechoslovakia.

The A.I.A.C.R. was founded at a time when the first large, leading automobile clubs of the various countries became active and organized international races, which was in the first years after the turn of the century. They dealt with the introduction of uniform rules for the different racing categories and later always new questions required a uniform solution. Therefore a discussion and an agreement in so many important matters were necessary. From these attempts emerged the foundation of the Association of International Recognized Automobile Clubs, which comprised the leading automobile clubs of the different countries and which as a rule, met twice yearly in Paris, namely in June just before the major race of the season and in December on the occasion of the Paris Salon.

Up to the time before the outbreak of the Great War, the leading clubs of the following countries belonged to the A.I.A.C.R.: France, Germany, America, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Egypt, Spain, England, Holland, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Sweden and Switzerland. The last meeting of the association to which representatives of Germany and Austria were sent to Paris, took place on the occasion of the Salon in 1913 on October 23.

In June 1920, a meeting of the association took place where Baron de Zuylen presided. The Vice Presidents at that time were General Sir Holden (England) and Marquis Ferrero di Ventimiglia (Italy). The automobile clubs of China, Finland, Poland and Czechoslovakia were admitted into the association.

[Hans Etzrodt]

The earliest appearance of the term 'Grande Épreuve' –in a primary source, so far– appears below. Let’s search for even older magazines! English, French, Italian or other!
ALLGEMEINE AUTOMOBIL-ZEITUNG (Wien) No.22 pg.4, November 15, 1925
Paris Conferences and International Sporting Calendar.
[The calendar text began, ]..." Further, the dates were determined of the following five Grandes Épreuves, which count towards the 1926 Automobile World Championship:
30. May - Grand Prix of Indianapolis
27. June - Grand Prix of the French Automobile Club (Miramas)
25. July - Grand Prix of Europe, organized by the Royal Spanish Automobile Club (San Sebastian)
2. August - Grand Prix of the Royal English Automobile Club (500-mile race on the Brooklands track)
5. September - Grand Prix of Italy."


Interestingly, about the same matter exists another report but the term 'Grande Épreuve' is not mentioned.
AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, No.65 pg.10, October 30, 1925
"From the International Sporting Commission.
Past Wednesday [October 28], the sporting commission [CSI] of the A.I.A.C.R. met. About the talks we can report the following:
A resolution will be moved at the General Meeting of the A.I.A.C.R. to grant Switzerland a representation in the sporting commission, where it would have only an advisory voice for the time being. The central point of the deliberations was to establish the rules. So, there will be five Grands Prix taking place on the following dates:
Indianapolis, 30. May
Grand Prix of France, 27. June
Grand Prix of Europe (in San Sebastian), 25. July
Grand Prix of England (in Brooklands), 2. August
Grand Prix of Italy, 5. September"

[Don Capps]

Hans, Outstanding.

I think that your thesis that the term originates from this period looks very solid. The dates fit with the CSI information I have on the introduction of the International Sporting Code and assembling the Sporting Calendar.

While I have seen AAA Contest material referring to the International Sweepstakes as a "Grand Prix" during this period, 1925 and 1926, nothing on it being a 'Grande Épreuve.' However, I will make an effort to find a working microfilm reader ( : ) at the local public library and go through the 1925 and 1926 Official Bulletins in greater detail. The last time I was there the printers for the readers didn't work so no hard copies of any of the bulletins.

[Hans Etzrodt]

AUTOMOBIL-REVUE No. 80, p 2/3 from Tuesday, September 29, 1931 contained an article referring to the Grandes Épreuves.
However,
the term Grande Épreuve does not appear in this article.
[According to the sporting regulations of the A.I.A.C.R.,...] ...as main events [speak Grandes Épreuves] are considered:
Grand Prix of Europe
Grand Prix of Germany
Grand Prix of Belgium
Grand Prix of Spain
Grand Prix of France
Grand Prix of England
Grand Prix of Indianapolis
Grand Prix of Italy.
These are the events, which have a certain privilege and are fixed first within the sporting calendar. Every one of these events has to have a minimum interval of 14 days between each of the above events and between each of those listed above and a regular international described event has to be a pause of at least five days.

Wherefrom does this precedence in position originate? Formerly, the A.I.A.C.R. had the above list already established when the regulations for the Grosse Preise [speak Grandes Épreuves] were sanctioned, after which all such events had to be held to a uniform formula and only the factories could compete. Therefore, the events were allowed to be staged only in countries, which possessed an important national automobile industry. Today it is no longer justified to enforce precedence regulations exclusively for the Grands Prix [speak Grandes Épreuves] because not only do the constructors participate officially with their own racing drivers but also independent single drivers. Besides one does not always adhere to the uniform formula. The special nature remains, [however,] that the International Sporting Commission has to determine first the dates for the Grossen Preise [speak Grandes Épreuves], [this took place at the CSI meeting of the A.I.A.C.R. on September 18, 1931]; in their second meeting (... on October 7) they work out, on the basis of the already provisory determined dates, the rest of the international sporting calendar...

[D-Type]

I elected to resurrect this old thread to say that whilst looking through the 1975 FIA Yellow Book for something else I found:
 

Clause G12 Note 2

The following shall be deemed to be "Grandes Epreuves".
-Grand Prix de Belgique
-Grosser Preis von Deutschland
-Grand Prix de France
-Grand Prix of Great Britain (RAC)
-Indianapolis 500 Miles
-Gran Premio d'Italia
-Grand Prix de Monaco
-Grote Prijs van Nederland

Each year, one of the classic events mentioned above with the exception of the Indianapolis 500 miles, will be able to take the title of "Grand Prix d'Europe" with the authorisation of the CSI.

Elsewhere it lists the World Championship qualifying events which include the above races, except for the Indianapolis 500, plus the following:
Grands Prix of Argentina, Brazil,South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Austria, Canada and the USA.

So I think this bears out Don's hypothesis that it was following the quiet revolution of 1982 that all World Championship qualifiers became Grande Epreuves.

Edited by D-Type, 01 October 2017 - 17:53.

[William Hunt]

bringing this topic up again because it's still not clear to me when they stopped using the word Grande épreuves (1982?) and what determined which races were considered Grande Epreuves and which not

[DCapps]

This weekend, after the talk on the W25s & the related Neubauer 1934 Eifelrennen nonsense, it occurred to me that for some reason it is "Grand Prix" racing to those in the English-speaking world, not grand prix or "grand prize." Generally, it seems that most of the others have the gumption to refer to it using their translation of "grand prix/grand prize" in whatever their language might be. And, why it is capitalized? In the deep dark past, for a short time Car and Driver called it "Grand Prize" racing and the enthusiasts/purists/whatever screamed bloody murder and howled and screamed and launched no end of invective towards the hapless souls at C/D who, of course, capitulated and donned sackcloth and ashes as repentance.

 

All this silliness crossed my mind some ages ago, but I simply accepted it as yet another contrivance or affection of the many inflicted upon us by the Ruling Classes in the Edwardian and following eras to snub those unfortunate enough to be hoi polloi and, therefore, among the unwashed and uneducated, thus, unworthy of using the vernacular, accepting the foreign terms as Gospel From On High.

 

As for me, no more. Grande Epreuves = great/grand tests, Grand Prix = grand prize.

 

Nothing against the French, who are perfectly entitled to the use of the terms as they wish, of course.

[ensign14]

Why "grand", Don?  "Grand" is French for big.  The French for "grand" is "ronflant" or "imposant".  Or even "pompeux" if you're being derogatory.  The real translation of Grand Prix is Big Prize.

 

It is merely a sign that English is not so self-important as to demand domestic translations of foreign terms and is quite happy to live with them as is.  Whereas German can't even cope with Latin or Greek derived terms, so has to turn a telephone into a far-speaker.  And of course Official French won't even touch such a ghastly English term as "email", insisting on "courriel" even though probably everyone in France uses the former.

[john aston]

What a splendid display of erudition with which to start my day, and the bonus of hoi polloi  not being preceded by the definite article . I must admit that I have never uttered the words 'Grande Epreuve' - although I thought it was synonym for Grand  Prix,  I suspected a further nuance . I didn't want to sound like the man in  a Bateman cartoon - 'the man who referred to the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix as  a Grande Epreuve'..   

 

Sadly , when it comes to nomenclature , 'F1 ' now not only refers to Grand Prix racing  , but is assumed by many to comprise the only form of motor sport.... 

[Vitesse2]

A quick perusal of the earliest occurences of 'grand prix' in The Times (over 1100 before January 1st 1906) shows that it had entered common usage in the mid-1860s via horse racing after the establishment of the Grand Prix de Paris in 1863 and - less often - in references to the various industrial exhibitions. Within twenty years there are also references to Grand Prix events in both rowing and sailing. While that doesn't refute Don's suggestion that it was a 'contrivance or affection of the many inflicted upon us by the Ruling Classes', with horse racing being (in)famously the sport of kings, it's surely equally true that the nags were just as much a working class sport. Not - by any means - had everybody who was on Epsom Downs on Derby Day arrived in a coach and four.

 

Incidentally, that search brought up the fact that the 1881 Grand Prix de Paris was won by a horse called Foxhall, whose owner was an American called Keene ...

[Michael Ferner]

I think there's a much more simple explanation: "Grand Prix racing", as we know (knew?) it, and subsequently "Formula One racing", developed from the series of Grand Prix races of the French AC, not the Grand Prize of the American AC.

Oh, and ens, we Germans can and do cope with Latin or Greek terms on a regular basis, and very much so. Fernsprecher is the sort of vernacular used by Germans who want to distinguish themselves from the hoi polloi, and no Bratwurst-eating, Bier-drinking German would ever use another word but Telefon.

[john aston]

If you say 'THE ' hoi polloi ' , you have  distinguished yourself in the wrong direction . A pedant might say    

[ensign14]

And if you say "of the hoi polloi", rather than twn pollwn...

 

NB: I have no idea how to do Greek on this keyboard, hence the shortcut

[Michael Ferner]

What's wright, and what's rong - THAT is The Question!

[StanBarrett2]

 

no Bratwurst-eating, Bier-drinking German would ever use another word but Telefon.

just as handy............ I suppose

[Ray Bell]

Ensign...

All you do is find the 'character map', select, copy and paste.

[Charlieman]

It is merely a sign that English is not so self-important as to demand domestic translations of foreign terms and is quite happy to live with them as is.  Whereas German can't even cope with Latin or Greek derived terms, so has to turn a telephone into a far-speaker.  

English speakers in the UK (and Ireland, no doubt) learn about hybrid nouns -- words formed from different languages. "Television" is the classic example, formed from Greek and Latin. To non-English speakers, is "television" perceived as an English made-up word or something else?

---

As discussed prior to September 2004, Grande Epreuves has been used as a collective expression for the most important Grand Prix races. And in lingua Franca, a big race is a Grand Prix; it was an event like the first French GP or as close as we can get on our budget, even if it is banger racing.

 

Sadly only one of the national Grosser Preis, Gran Premio and Grote Prijs trophies will be awarded this year. In lingua Franca, they are/were Grand Prix and all used to be Grande Epreuves.

[Vitesse2]

English speakers in the UK (and Ireland, no doubt) learn about hybrid nouns -- words formed from different languages. "Television" is the classic example, formed from Greek and Latin. To non-English speakers, is "television" perceived as an English made-up word or something else?

--

Well, the Hochdeutsch for television set is 'Fernsehapparat' - literally 'far seeing apparatus' - so essentially a literal translation of the Latin/Greek hybrid 'television'. Although I guess - like 'Handy' for mobile phone - 'TV' (pronounced tay-vau) is more common these days.

[Michael Ferner]

just as handy............ I suppose

Good one!

Believe it or not, I have even heard the expression "Handyfon" - more than once!!

[DCapps]

Why "grand", Don?  "Grand" is French for big.  The French for "grand" is "ronflant" or "imposant".  Or even "pompeux" if you're being derogatory.  The real translation of Grand Prix is Big Prize.

 

 

Why? Simply to reflect the way the Automobile Club of America in its own slightly askew way decided that it would be the Grand Prize for the Gold Cup of the Automobile Club of America. In the US of A, we have "grand prize" winners, our own somewhat unique way of expressing ourselves. Which, of course, our robber barons and their fellow charlatans borrowed the original phrase from a certain country on The Continent and then mangled it to fit their purposes.

[Sterzo]

It is merely a sign that English is not so self-important as to demand domestic translations of foreign terms and is quite happy to live with them as is.

Indeed, and there is a value to tradition. As Grand Prix racing was originated by the French, and every British Grand Prix in history has been given that title on its programme (nobody mention Wendy Wools), this not especially proud Englishman shall continue to call it Grand Prix racing.

[DCapps]

(1) Indeed, and there is a value to tradition. (2) As Grand Prix racing was originated by the French, and every British Grand Prix in history has been given that title on its programme (nobody mention Wendy Wools), this not especially proud Englishman shall continue to call it Grand Prix racing.

 

(1) Cue the opening song in the musical, Fiddler on the Roof...

 

(2) As some have also remarked, this might reflect the laziness or lack of imagination in the language of the English-speaking worlds, as well as its relative porousness. Keeping in mind that there was once THE Grand Prix, that is only event worthy of the title, that of the ACF, perhaps the adoption by the RAC was something of an ego/jingo thing.

[john winfield]

Indeed, and there is a value to tradition. As Grand Prix racing was originated by the French, and every British Grand Prix in history has been given that title on its programme (nobody mention Wendy Wools), this not especially proud Englishman shall continue to call it Grand Prix racing.

 

Steady on, we never sank that low did we? I remember the 'Woolmark British GP' in 1971.......I think cousin Wendy knitted trophies for Special Saloons didn't she?