114 replies to this topic

[Egon Thurner]

This picture below is discussed at the moment by a group of german-speaking enthusiasts like Robert Dick, McRonalds, Michael Mueller, Uechtel, Holger Merten (well, he does not take part in fact ) and me. All together members of this board, too. But ...

So what is ist exactly, and when ?

[Michael Müller]

And where may be helpful also...

[Jonas]

Sure it's french? The sloping radiator cowl brings Maserati to mind.. But on the other hand, Delage also had a similar front (although a bit lower..) and this would be a french car..

But surely such an eminent group of people have ruled out such obvious answers. If it's a true "Special" I'm dead out of ideas...

[Egon Thurner]

... 'Maserati-based french special' would be the more correct query, yes ...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
... 'Maserati-based french special' would be the more correct query, yes ...

Derby-Maserati? - Hawkes' car?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by petefenelon



Derby-Maserati? - Hawkes' car?

Actually - no - I don't think it is - the Derby-Maserati has its exhaust on t'other side and is much chubbier than this beastie.

[David McKinney]

Will check later, but OTTOMH it looks like the two-seater 8C Maserati which Sommer (or was it Zehender?) ahd rebodied for the 1934 GP formula

[Don Capps]

It does very much favor the Zehender Maserati 8C-3000 entered for the 1934 GP de l'ACF. However, the area on the engine cover (bonnet) around the exhaust opening seems different. Or least not like it was during the race.

[dretceterini]

Interesting, but really have no idea exactly what it is. Looks like a cross between the first version of the SEFAC and a Maserati to me...

[Michael Müller]

David and Don may come rather close...
We thought it may be better not giving any potential answer already with the question, in order not to put you on a possibly wrong track. However, may be the discussion gets additionally feed if we tell you a bit more.

The photo is from "Le Fanatique de l'Automobile", a magazine by Serge Pozzoli, published about 20 years ago. It is titled "de Maleplane, Maserati 8C2500, hill climb". The standard questions - when and where, but plus also what and who. The point of our discussion is whether this is really a 8C-2000/2500 - or in other terms tipo 26B/M -, or an offset 8CM. The car looks like one of the early narrow chassis 8CM, with springs and shocks outside the frame.
If so, could it then be Jean de Maleplane? Acc. to our data his last race was Pau 1933, before the 8CM was introduced.

@ Don:
No, we are quite sure that this is not the Zehender offset Maserati.

@ David:
Any more details from your side on the Sommer Maserati in 1934?

Who knows more about Jean de Maleplane? What Maserati did he own, when acquired, and from whom? What happened to the car after early 1933? Was Pau really his last race, or did he continue maybe on a lower scale (regional races, hill climbs, etc.)? Was there any relation between de Maleplane and Raymond Sommer?

And who knows the scenery? Looks like winter, no leafs on the trees, but not really cold.

[GIGLEUX]

de Maleplane's car was the 26M-2515 ex Dreyfus with 2500 engine N°43 ex-Fagioli. After WW2 he car was in the hands of Jean Sainlis who also collected planes. He entered once in 1947 at Montlhéry with the Maserati but I don't know if he started.
To find a N°228 seems to me strange for a french race,so maybe hillclimb?

[Michael Müller]

Ah, our French section is online, good evening Jean Maurice.
Fine, the first question is answered.
And yes, it's definitively a hill climb, you can spot the wooden brake stick, which a marshall positions behind the rear wheel so that the car cannot roll back.

[Egon Thurner]

Jean-Maurice, I hoped you will contribute some bits here.

Do you know, if De Maleplane owned a second Maserati, purchased maybe early 1933?

Do you know something about Sommer's car at Spa 1934 ? Who owned it before and which engine was installed, when rebuilt? And who rebuilt it? Seems, that Maleplane's car was it's forerunner.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
(...) Holger Merten (well, he does not take part in fact )

Egon, I like your kind of humour, and I'm always interested in news.....

Wait some ten years, after there are no news about the AU, and then I'll go on with MB, then Alfa, then Maserati and the others from the 30s. Good luck with a solution, while I'll follow your discussions .

[O Volante]

Perhaps a rebuild smaller capacity Maser?

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by O Volante
Perhaps a rebuild smaller capacity Maser?

No, has obviously the wheelbase of the 8C's/8CM's.

[Ray Bell]

If I might intrude...

The background gives little in the way of clues to a hillclimb. Might it be a sprint of some kind, or a time trial?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
If I might intrude...

The background gives little in the way of clues to a hillclimb. Might it be a sprint of some kind, or a time trial?

.... and it would appear to be taken in winter (unless those trees are dead).

[Egon Thurner]

This picture shows the Maserati of Raymond Sommer at Spa 1934. The picture is in Delsaux' Spa-book, but the capture 'Montier' is wrong! Most sources say, it was a 8CM. But it was no conventional one, as you can see.

The car seems to be the same as in the first picture, after it had been rebuilt and - probably - had been fitted with an 8CM-engine.

[GIGLEUX]

As Holger wrote:good luck with a solution! Sommer's car was given bye Doug Nye as 3004 in Classisc and Sportscar, June 1987. I think you all knew this item. In it Doug's conclusion is that this
car is a 8 CM on a SEFAC chassis; he quote Motor Sport november 1934 saying that Sommer had sold his Maserati-cum-SEFAC to Chambost. In C nd S August 1987 issue Doug also quote Brooklands Track and Air in which Buddy Featherstonhaugh wrote: "Sommer's car was particulary interesting, consisting of a 3-litre Maserati engine in a Sefac chassis". Chambost was killed in this car during the 1936 GP de Deauville. I know that his car had italian papers as his widow met some worries with the French customs (apparently while the car was stored its custom-carnet was used for another car, fact that Mme Chambost ignored). If ths story is true we have two cars: 2515 with
Dreyfus-de Maleplane-X-Sainlis and "3004?" with Sommer-Chambost-X.
Usually Doug know of what he talks but on the other side I never found a single word of a Maserati
engined SEFAC in the french magazines of the time. Last point, Serge Pozzoli who was always well informed never wrote about a Sommer Sp in his Maserati' saga.
I have a poor picture of Sommer's car at Albi 1934 and I can post it tomorrow. I think I also have a picture of 2515 after the war and I saw a pict of Chambost's car but cannot remember where at the moment.
De Maleplane bought and raced 2515 in1932. The 1933 Pau GP seemed to be his last race and after it no trace of him; I don't hink he had a second Maserati. Sorry but I cannot say more

[Marcor]

I would list to post something here but I have not a real answer, just some idea.

The starting number 228 and the Autumn / Winter scenery make me think of those events:
1932, October 23, Gometz-Le-Châtel
1932, ?, Gaillon
1933, March 23, Chanteloup
1933, April 9, Château-Thierry *
1933, April 17, Torigni
1933, October 1, Argenteuil
1933, October 22, Gometz-Le-Châtel

Sommer appeared in the entry list at Château-Thierry (3 L racing class Maserati).

Other suggestion: picture taken in the Maleplane / Sommer later period...

[Michael Müller]

I for my part never heard of the SEFAC-Maserati, and the well-known gap in the Maserati files concerning #3004 has been the basis of more than one theories over the last decades...
A picture of #2515 after the war would be fine, because then we can see whether it has still the same body than in the first pic here.

[David McKinney]

My candidate for the Maserati special is 3006, Zehender’s 1933 car also raced by Sommer. The information comes from the present owner who conducted detailed research.
For 1934 the car was rebuilt on a new wider chassis (SEFAC or other) and fitted with the bodywork from an older 2-seater - one could suggest from de Maleplane’s car but that would be a pure guess. May have been fitted with engine no. 3004 at this point or earlier.
After Chambost the car apparently went to Brazil, and returned to the Northern Hemisphere in the 1970s. Has raced in VSCC events fairly regularly for the past 20yrs+, as a sportscar...
The driver sits very close to the steering-wheel, as in Egon's Spa picture

[Egon Thurner]

Jean-Maurice, Marc and David: This is a lot of hints - so we will have a nice weekend here

The 3004-theory, yes. We've discussed it already, trying to solve this puuzzle. I guess, I have reached a certain point now, where it's better to say not too much at the moment.

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by David McKinney
My candidate for the Maserati special is 3006, Zehender’s 1933 car also raced by Sommer.

So if the chassis was changed (SEFAC or other), old 2-seater bodywork fitted (de Maleplane or other), and a new engine [may] fitted (#3004 or other) - which part of the car was still #3006??

[GIGLEUX]

Maybe the chassis plate...

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by David McKinney
My candidate for the Maserati special is 3006, Zehender’s 1933 car also raced by Sommer. The information comes from the present owner who conducted detailed research.

David, may I ask you who did the detailed research for the present owner?

[Leif Snellman]

Where the **** did Sommer get a SEFAC chassis from back in 1934????? The first SEFAC was only ready in June 1935.
In Pritchard's book (Maserati - a history) of couse one can read that back in 1933 "Sommer was throughly disenchanced with his 8CM and placed an order for a new Alfa Romeo Monza." So it makes sence if Sommer would try to better the 8CMs notoriously bad handling by changing the chassis.

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
Where the **** did Sommer get a SEFAC chassis from back in 1934????? The first SEFAC was only ready in June 1935.

Leif got the point...!!
By the way, to improve the handling of the early narrow chassis 8CM it was not necessary to switch to a complete other chassis, some stiffenings as Nuvolari did on his car before the Belgian GP 1933 improved the driving properties considerably.

[robert dick]

The steering gear is mounted high, higher than the frame, and the front dampers and springs are mounted on the outside of the frame : typical for the early, narrow 8CM frames. Oil radiators (can be seen below the exhaust pipe) of this type were used on Bugattis and on the "real" SEFAC.

Possible that the SEFAC company used such an early 8CM frame for tests in view of the design of the "real" SEFAC which appeared later. The main difference between an original early 8CM and the special is the shape/location of the fuel tank which changed the mass distribution at the rear end. This could be an indication that Émile Petit (the ex-Salmson engineer who was responsible for the SEFAC) had a finger in the pie.
And the shape/design of the bodywork seems also to be typical for Émile Petit.

[David McKinney]

Michael
Good question about the 3006 identity - perhaps Jean-Maurice has the answer
The other question of course is, what happened to the original 3006 chassis and body (and maybe engine)?

Leif/Michael
The wider chassis was not primarily intended to improve the handling, but to allow a narrow-chassis 8CM to comply with the new wide-body regulations
The point about SEFAC chronology also occurred to me, which is why I said "SEFAC or other" in relation to the origin of the replacement chassis
On the other hand, Robert's analysis looks good to me

Egon
I suspect the research was carried out by the late Bob Danaher during the course of his rebuild of the car in the 1970s

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Egon
I suspect the research was carried out by the late Bob Danaher during the course of his rebuild of the car in the 1970s

Aha ..

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Michael
Good question about the 3006 identity - perhaps Jean-Maurice has the answer
The other question of course is, what happened to the original 3006 chassis and body (and maybe engine)?

David, I don't know, what happened to the original 3006 chassis and body (and maybe engine), but maybe I can tell you something about it's future.

[David McKinney]

I have three post-1933 references to 3006 which conflict with the trail I outlined - one that it was raced by Siena in 1935 (Sheldon), one that it was in Germany in 1946 and one that it was reneumbered 3020 in 1934

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by David McKinney
The wider chassis was not primarily intended to improve the handling, but to allow a narrow-chassis 8CM to comply with the new wide-body regulations

The narrow 4CM-like chassis was too fragile for the long 8CM wheelbase, the 850 mm cockpit bredth could be achieved much simpler as e.g. Etancelin did.

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX

De Maleplane bought and raced 2515 in1932. The 1933 Pau GP seemed to be his last race and after it no trace of him; I don't hink he had a second Maserati. Sorry but I cannot say more

(According to the data available ..) De Maleplane's first race with a Maserati was in 1931 at Dieppe. It is impossible, that his 1931-Maserati was 2515/43. So my data is very 'mistaky' at this point - or Maleplane hat another Maserati, before he purchased 1525/43.

Pictures wanted: Are there pictures of Biondetti's MB Speciale and Premoli's PBM anywhere. If yes, please post it here or send me a mail. I for myself have never seen any.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
Pictures wanted: Are there pictures of Biondetti's MB Speciale and Premoli's PBM anywhere. If yes, please post it here or send me a mail. I for myself have never seen any.

Mysterious chap,

Biondetti.

By MB, do you mean the Maserati-engined car which was entered by Gruppo Volta for Sergio Carnevali in several 1937 Voiturette races?

[Egon Thurner]

No, Richard. I am talking about another special, built by Biondetti, based on a Bugatti-Chassis (IIRC), a Maserati 26M-engine and bodywork from unknown appearence - at least for me unknown. He raced the beast during the whole 1932 season and - probably - fitted it with a 3L (8CM) Maserati-engine during winter or spring 1932/1933.

I'm not sure about this car's debut, maybe it's first race was at Rome (24.4.1932); some weeks earlier at Tunisie it was entered at least. But on the other hand I don't know, which kind of Maserati Biondetti drove in the Coppa Ciano and in the Coppa Acerbo 1931.

And then there is another special, based on a Bugatti-Chassis and a 8CM-engine (no. '3003'), built by Premoli, called 'PBM' (Premoli-Bugatti-Maserati) and raced by him during the 1933 season and some races in 1934. But this is a totally different story.

P.S.: I'm not sure about the correct spelling of 'Premoli'.

[ReWind]

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
This picture shows the Maserati of Raymond Sommer at Spa 1934. The picture is in Delsaux' Spa-book, but the capture 'Montier' is wrong!

I know the following is slightly off-topic in this thread but I think it is worth thinking about nevertheless.

If car # 12 isn't the Montier then the grids shown by Paul Sheldon and Leif Snellman are definitely wrong.

All seven starters can be seen on the grid in a picture in Edmond Cohin's "L'historique de la course automobile 1894 - 1978", page 229. From that photo - maybe someone can post it in this thread, please? - the grid looks like this:

Bugatti # 6  Alfa Romeo # 14  Bugatti # 2

	  Alfa Romeo # 16   Bugatti # 4

	   Mystery # 12	Mystery # 24

That means Dreyfus was in car # 2 (instead of # 4) and Benoist was in car # 4 (instead of # 2).

The lines of car # 24 are barely visible (as it is partly hidden by bystanders to Benoist's Bugatti) but they appear not Maserati-like (although I'm no expert on this - far from it). So car # 12 is indeed Sommer's Maserati but not on the right side of the third row (as Sheldon and Snellman both have it) but on the left side.

Leif - I'm afraid you have to exchange positions of cars # 2 and 4 on the one side and those of cars # 12 and 24 on the other side.

BTW: Does anyone know details of the unique Montier car? If so, please don't reply here (in order not to spoil the topic of this thread) - maybe a new thread on the Montier would be appropriate.

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by ReWind
I know the following is slightly off-topic in this thread but I think it is worth thinking about nevertheless. If car # 12 isn't the Montier then the grids shown by Paul Sheldon and Leif Snellman are definitely wrong.

Not OT, Reinhard. Because we have to assure, that the car shown is Sommer's Maserati. But there is no doubt that the Montier looked totally different (see picture in Serge Bellu's 'Blue Blood'm maybe someone can post it here). So there remains no other solution. Car no 12 is Sommer's Maserati for sure.

[Michael Müller]

http://www.axos.nl/r...-Spa-1934-1.jpg
(Photo by courtesy of Robert Dick)

14 - Chiron - Alfa
4 - Dreyfus - Bugatti
16 - Varzi - Alfa
6 - Brivio - Bugatti (most probably)
2 - Benoist - Bugatti
12 - Sommer - Maserati
24 - Montier - Ford

PS: Reinhard, any chance to post the photo you are talking about...?

[ReWind]

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Any chance to post the photo?

No, unfortunately not me. (Hence my plea for someone else posting it.)

In the picture you can see # 2 and # 6 on the front row Bugattis with the driver of car # 2 still standing beside his car. So there should be a chance to identify him. Dreyfus or Benoist?

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by ReWind
Leif - I'm afraid you have to exchange positions of cars # 2 and 4 on the one side and those of cars # 12 and 24 on the other side.

I'm always positive to corrections! However, I too would really like to see a picture first rather than having to do the corrections blindly.

[Michael Müller]

Reinhard, if you can make a scan and sent it to me by e-mail I can put it online on my server.

[ReWind]

Sorry - but I don't have the means to scan the picture.

Hasn't anybody else Cohin's book?

[alessandro silva]

Michael,
if you send me your e-mail address I'll mail you the photo of the SPA start in 1934 from Cohin's book.
But how many Maseratis did Sommer drive in 34/35?

[Egon Thurner]

An interesting question. Alone in Juli 1934 probably four (!) different Maseratis in four races! Maybe five or six all together for 1934/1935

[GIGLEUX]

Here is the picture of the 1934 Belgian GP from the book of old friend Edmond Cohin. Front row from left to right Bugatti N°2; AR N° 14; Bugatti N°6. Last row we clearly see the Maserati of Sommer and can guess the Montier's Ford with its characteristic left-hand drive position.


Sommer's Maserati at Albi 1934. Please excuse the bad quality but it's an old photocopy from a picture on bad quality paper of a 1946 daily!

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
An interesting question. Alone in Juli 1934 probably four (!) different Maseratis in four races!

Now, Albi was the same than the Spa-car. So it is one less.

Apropos Albi 1934. The Straight-entry(s) seem very strange in this race.

[Michael Müller]

Jean-Maurice was faster, but here is the picture which Alessandro sent me, which is somewhat larger with more details visible.

http://www.axos.nl/r...-Spa-1934-2.jpg