41 replies to this topic

[The Vulcan]

I was wondering which country has produced the most number of F1 drivers over the years - but more importantly is there a significant reason for it being so? Perhaps the popularity of the sport, some local sports heroes, and the publicity do play a part and if the latter is a contributing factor, then we can expect to see more drivers from China (in view of their population size) coming into the sport! Interesting to hear your thoughts.

[eldougo]

A quick guess i would say it was a follows

British
French
Italy
Germany


Reason being that these countrys have made a business out of f1 and that has encouraged big
business to get behind there local stars, and these countrys have large car manafactures who
promote their products via motorsport.

[The Vulcan]

I would have thought that Brazil would also be on top of the list looking at the number of Brazilian drivers in F1!!

[Rob29]

More relevant I think is the number who have become World Champion;
Britain 12
Brasil 8
Germany 6
Argentina 5
France,Austria & Australia 4
Italy 3
Finland 3
USA 2
South Africa,New Zealand & Canada 1
Belgium,Switzerland,Sweden & Mexico hace also provided winners.

[Marcel Visbeen]

Originally posted by Rob29
More relevant I think is the number who have become World Champion;
Britain 12
Brasil 8
Germany 6
Argentina 5
France,Austria & Australia 4
Italy 3
Finland 3
USA 2
South Africa,New Zealand & Canada 1
Belgium,Switzerland,Sweden & Mexico hace also provided winners.

This a listing of championships, not of champions.
Germany and Argentinia for example have produced only one champion each: Schumacher and Fangio. They where highly succesfull, but still. Brazil has three champions: Fittipaldi, Piquet and Senna, France had 'only' one champion who scored four championships and Australia and Austia needed two drivers to have four... In fact I don't think this list has very much meaning regarding the succes of nations in general. You cannot measure the succes of the whore country of Germany on the genius of one driver.

[Flying Panda]

F1 Drivers per nationality, as of the 2003 Japanese Gran Prix -

British 157
American 156*
Italian 90
French 64
American 50
German 50
Brazilian 26
Argentinian 24
Swiss 22
Belgian 21
South African 21
Australian 16
Japanese 16
Austrian 13
Spanish 12
Canadian 11
Dutch 11
Swedish 9
New Zealander 8
Finnish 7
Danish 4
Irish 4
Mexican 4
Uraguayan 4
Colombian 3
Monegasque 3
Portuguese 3
Venezuelan 3
Zimbabwean 2
Chilean 1
Czech 1
Liechtenstein 1
Malaysian 1
Moroccan 1
Rhodesian 1
Thai 1


* - Includes drivers who competed exclusivley in the 1950-1960 Indianapolis 500s.

[ReWind]

Originally posted by Marcel Visbeen
You cannot measure the succes of the whore country of Germany on the genius of one driver.

Germany is a WHORE COUNTRY? That should cause some international complications!

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Flying Panda
F1 Drivers per nationality, as of the 2003 Japanese Gran Prix -
Venezuelan 3
Zimbabwean 2
Moroccan 1
Rhodesian 1

Um... Rhodesia & Zimbabwe are the same country No Zimbabwean driver has ever raced, all of them raced when the country was Rhodesia

No Morroccan has ever raced. Guelfi & LaCaze were both French nationals - and France, 64?? Where did that come from - that's almost 10 short??

Venezuela three?? Chimeri, Cecotto and..... ???????? (piero Drogo was Italian!!)

Plenty of other questions in your list - only 4 Irish? And Testut is French, not from Monaco!

and where's Zsolt Baumgartner of Hungary in your list??
Pretty out of date all round, really...

Alphabetically:
Argentina 24 (Includes 2 NQ)
Australia 16 (3 NQ)
Austria 15 (including Klien) (2NQ)
Belgium 22 (2NQ)
Brazil 27
Canada 13 (1NQ) - (Quebec 2 - 1 NQ)
Chile 1
Colombia 2 (Londono-Bridge didn't make it to the official part of practice so I exclude him)
Czech Republic 1
Denmark 4 (1NQ)
Finland 7 (1NQ)
France 78 (2NQ)
Germany 46 (10NQ) (East & West)
Great Britain 151 (13NQ):-
England 129 (13NQ)
Northern Ireland 7
Scotland 13
Wales 3
Holland 11
Hungary 1
Ireland 5 (1NQ)
Italy 92 (15 NQ)
Japan 16 (3NQ)
Liechenstein 1
Malaysia 1
Mexico 4
Monaco 2
New Zealand 8
Portugal 3
Rhodesia 4 (1NQ)
South Africa 19 (2NQ)
Spain 12 (2NQ)
Sweden 9
Switzerland 23 (1NQ)
Thailand/Siam 1
Uruguay 4 (1NQ)
USA (not including Indianapolis) 51 (5NQ)
Venezuela 2

Of those the following amount of wins have come from:
Argentina 38 (3 drivers)
Australia 26 (2 drivers)
Austria 49 (3 drivers)
Belgium 11 (2 drivers)
Brazil 86 (5 drivers)
Canada 17 (2 drivers)
Colombia 3 (1 driver)
Finland 26 (3 drivers)
France 79 (12 drivers)
Germany 81 (5 drivers - all West German)
Great Britain 199 (17 drivers):-
England 124 (11 drivers)
Northern Ireland 9 (2 drivers)
Scotland 66 (4 drivers)
Italy 40 (14 drivers)
Mexico 2 (1 driver)
New Zealand 12 (2 drivers)
South Africa 10 (1 driver)
Spain 1 (1 driver)
Sweden 12 (3 drivers)
Switzerland 2 (2 drivers)
USA 22 (5 drivers)

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins

Great Britain 151 (13NQ):-
England 129 (13NQ)
Northern Ireland 7
Scotland 13
Wales 3

[Vitesse2]

Dammit Roger - beat me by a nose!

[Marcel Visbeen]

Originally posted by ReWind
Germany is a WHORE COUNTRY? That should cause some international complications!

Solly, wlong key!

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

is a closed bracket, followed by a colon. e.g. ) :

So Rich's list was meat to look like
Great Britain 151 (13NQ) : -
England 129 (13NQ)
Northern Ireland 7
Scotland 13
Wales 3

Meaning that Britains 151 consists of 129 from England, 13 from Scotland, and so on.





While we're on the topic, I'm curious as to wheather there has been any Grand Prix where no two starting drivers were of the same nationality?
and which World Championship event has seen the most nationalities represtented at one event?


Cheers

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Flying Panda
is a closed bracket, followed by a colon. e.g. ) :

So Rich's list was meat to look like
Great Britain 151 (13NQ) : -
England 129 (13NQ)
Northern Ireland 7
Scotland 13
Wales 3

Meaning that Britains 151 consists of 129 from England, 13 from Scotland, and so on.

...which adds to 152, not 151...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by ensign14
...which adds to 152, not 151...

Australian arithmetic must be different

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Flying Panda
While we're on the topic, I'm curious as to wheather there has been any Grand Prix where no two starting drivers were of the same nationality?
and which World Championship event has seen the most nationalities represtented at one event?

FP, thanks for explaining my unless Roger meant something else by

Blimey they're a tough two questions!

I'll have a look unless someone already knows - the 1st question I doubt it due to the sheer volume of some nation's drivers - if it has happened, I think it may be recently..

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Australian arithmetic must be different

I think it's more down to Welsh arithmetic It should've been 152.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Flying Panda

While we're on the topic, I'm curious as to wheather there has been any Grand Prix where no two starting drivers were of the same nationality?

Very unlikely, to the point of near impossibility, I'd have thought. In fact, I'll qualify that: no!

Originally posted by Flying Panda
and which World Championship event has seen the most nationalities represtented at one event?

Probably some time in 1974 - there were drivers of 19 different nationalities during that season. In 1977 and 1978 there were 18, in 1971 and 1979 there were 17, in 1973, 1976, 1980 and 1982 there were 16.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


FP, thanks for explaining my unless Roger meant something else by

I meant the same as Vitesse3 and Ensign15.

[Barry Boor]

I think it's more down to Welsh arithmetic

Be ydyr problem efo'ch mathemateg Cymraeg?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Barry Boor


Be ydyr problem efo'ch mathemateg Cymraeg?

Eeee-yann Beeeeeelll.

[Richard Jenkins]

Nothing wrong with Welsh mathematics at all, just this particular Welshman's mathmetics (but I went to school in England, so English mathematics teachers are to blame ;) )

By the way, I think Vitesse2 is right. Not just about mathematics but also both the questions.

[Vitesse2]

This isn't necessarily the definitive answer, but I think it's the 1974 Swedish GP, with 16.

South Africa - Scheckter
France - Depailler, Jarier, Beltoise, Pescarolo
Great Britain - Hunt, Hill, Edwards, Watson, Hailwood, Robarts
Brazil - Fittipaldi, Pace
Denmark - Belso
Liechtenstein - von Opel
Italy - Brambilla, Merzario
Australia - Schuppan
Austria - Lauda
Sweden - Wisell, Peterson, Roos
New Zealand - Hulme
Germany - Mass
Argentina - Reutemann
Belgium - Ickx
Switzerland - Regazzoni
Finland - Kinnunen

The other three nationalities during the year were American, Canadian and Dutch, but I think sixteen is the maximum in any one race.

[Rob G]

The totals posted above showing the number of drivers don't quite tell the whole story simply because many drivers from certain countries, such as Germany and South Africa for example, only participated in their home races. Does anyone have stats handy showing the number of race starts per nationality, rather than drivers per nationality?

[Option1]

Originally posted by Flying Panda
F1 Drivers per nationality, as of the 2003 Japanese Gran Prix -

British 157
American 156*
Italian 90
French 64
American 50
...

* - Includes drivers who competed exclusivley in the 1950-1960 Indianapolis 500s.

There's an intriguing problem here - two Americas. I assume that the second groups of Americans numbering 50 is excluding those who only competed in Indy. However, Richie shows that figure as being 51.

Neil

[The Vulcan]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


Um... Rhodesia & Zimbabwe are the same country No Zimbabwean driver has ever raced, all of them raced when the country was Rhodesia

No Morroccan has ever raced. Guelfi & LaCaze were both French nationals - and France, 64?? Where did that come from - that's almost 10 short??

Venezuela three?? Chimeri, Cecotto and..... ???????? (piero Drogo was Italian!!)

Plenty of other questions in your list - only 4 Irish? And Testut is French, not from Monaco!

and where's Zsolt Baumgartner of Hungary in your list??
Pretty out of date all round, really...

Alphabetically:
Argentina 24 (Includes 2 NQ)
Australia 16 (3 NQ)
Austria 15 (including Klien) (2NQ)
Belgium 22 (2NQ)
Brazil 27
Canada 13 (1NQ) - (Quebec 2 - 1 NQ)
Chile 1
Colombia 2 (Londono-Bridge didn't make it to the official part of practice so I exclude him)
Czech Republic 1
Denmark 4 (1NQ)
Finland 7 (1NQ)
France 78 (2NQ)
Germany 46 (10NQ) (East & West)
Great Britain 151 (13NQ):-
England 129 (13NQ)
Northern Ireland 7
Scotland 13
Wales 3
Holland 11
Hungary 1
Ireland 5 (1NQ)
Italy 92 (15 NQ)
Japan 16 (3NQ)
Liechenstein 1
Malaysia 1
Mexico 4
Monaco 2
New Zealand 8
Portugal 3
Rhodesia 4 (1NQ)
South Africa 19 (2NQ)
Spain 12 (2NQ)
Sweden 9
Switzerland 23 (1NQ)
Thailand/Siam 1
Uruguay 4 (1NQ)
USA (not including Indianapolis) 51 (5NQ)
Venezuela 2

Of those the following amount of wins have come from:
Argentina 38 (3 drivers)
Australia 26 (2 drivers)
Austria 49 (3 drivers)
Belgium 11 (2 drivers)
Brazil 86 (5 drivers)
Canada 17 (2 drivers)
Colombia 3 (1 driver)
Finland 26 (3 drivers)
France 79 (12 drivers)
Germany 81 (5 drivers - all West German)
Great Britain 199 (17 drivers):-
England 124 (11 drivers)
Northern Ireland 9 (2 drivers)
Scotland 66 (4 drivers)
Italy 40 (14 drivers)
Mexico 2 (1 driver)
New Zealand 12 (2 drivers)
South Africa 10 (1 driver)
Spain 1 (1 driver)
Sweden 12 (3 drivers)
Switzerland 2 (2 drivers)
USA 22 (5 drivers)

Thanks or the comprehensive list!! Great job

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Option1
There's an intriguing problem here - two Americas. I assume that the second groups of Americans numbering 50 is excluding those who only competed in Indy. However, Richie shows that figure as being 51.

Neil

I can't really comment on FP's numbers, but one possible reason for this is those that raced in both - ie Lloyd Ruby & Rodger Ward AREN'T included
It could be that Tom Jones, who was thought Canadian, IS American & that's the one
But also Alfonso Thiele, listed as American - I think is Italian in my listings so....


But anyway, I've made it 51 from those who started a GP & not SOLELY Indianapolis - if you want, when I get home I'll print a list of the 51 on here for you....

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by Option1
There's an intriguing problem here - two Americas. I assume that the second groups of Americans numbering 50 is excluding those who only competed in Indy. However, Richie shows that figure as being 51.

Neil

As Richie pointed out earlier, that is but one of many, many faults with my list.

[Option1]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


I can't really comment on FP's numbers, but one possible reason for this is those that raced in both - ie Lloyd Ruby & Rodger Ward AREN'T included
It could be that Tom Jones, who was thought Canadian, IS American & that's the one
But also Alfonso Thiele, listed as American - I think is Italian in my listings so....


But anyway, I've made it 51 from those who started a GP & not SOLELY Indianapolis - if you want, when I get home I'll print a list of the 51 on here for you....

That would be very interesting to see, thanks Richie.

Neil

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Option1
That would be very interesting to see, thanks Richie.

Neil

1 Harry Schell
2 Robert O'Brien
3 Fred Wacker
4 John Fitch
5 Herbert Mackay Fraser
6 Masten Gregory
7 Troy Ruttmann
8 Bruce Kessler
9 Carroll Shelby
10 Phil Hill
11 George Constantine
12 Bob Said
13 Harry Blanchard
14 Phil Cade
15 Rodger Ward
16 Dan Gurney
17 Pete Lovely
18 Fred Gamble
19 Chuck Daigh
20 Bob Drake
21 Lance Reventlow
22 Jim Hall
23 Richie Ginther
24 Lloyd Ruby
25 Roger Penske
26 Walt Hansgen
27 Hap Sharp
28 Jay Chamberlain
29 Tim Mayer
30 Rob (or Bob) Schroeder
31 Tony Settember - born in "Italy", like Andretti, but settled in America, so he is US.
32 Frank Dochnal
33 Ronnie Bucknum
34 Peter Revson
35 Bob Bondurant
36 Mike Fisher
37 Tom Jones
38 Bob Unser
39 Mario Andretti
40 Gus Hutchison
41 Skip Barber
42 Sam Posey
43 Mark Donohue
44 George Follmer
45 Brett Lunger
46 Danny Ongais
47 Bobby Rahal
48 Eddie Cheever
49 Kevin Cogan
50 Danny Sullivan
51 Michael Andretti


and Thiele.. I have down as Italian. Can't prove it but I'm not at all convinced he was American. Come to think of it, I can't prove anything about Thiele - whether's he alive or dead or anything else!

[Vitesse2]

I've found another race with sixteen different nationalities - the 1979 French GP.

France - Jabouille, Arnoux, Jarier, Laffite, Tambay, Pironi
Canada - Villeneuve
Australia - Jones
Switzerland - Regazzoni
South Africa - Scheckter
Finland - Rosberg
Great Britain - Watson
Mexico - Rebaque
Argentina - Reutemann
Italy - Patrese, de Angelis, Giacomelli
Germany - Mass
Netherlands - Lammers
Brazil - Fittipaldi, Piquet
USA - Andretti
Belgium - Ickx
Austria - Lauda

That seems to be all though - I found several fifteens and fourteens, but no more sixteens.

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
and Thiele.. I have down as Italian. Can't prove it but I'm not at all convinced he was American. Come to think of it, I can't prove anything about Thiele - whether's he alive or dead or anything else!

I have a source that says Nasif Estefano is Amercian aswell.
I assume you're going to tell me he was an Argentine?

[Richard Jenkins]

very much so, FP. I have NEVER seen him listed as an American - mainly because he wasn't!

[karlcars]

I knew Alfons Thiele and he was definitely Italian, but living in America in his later years. In my view he wouldn't qualify as American under the Andretti rule.

However I have just consulted the Hayhoe/Holland Grand Prix Data Book, which has a wonderful set of tables of all kinds of stats at the back, and he has Thiele as an American! Steve Small, on the other hand, lists him as Italy/USA.

Hayhoe/Holland reminds us that Stirling Moss was the only driver to drive two different makes of car in one Grand Prix: the British of 1961.

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by karlcars

However I have just consulted the Hayhoe/Holland Grand Prix Data Book, which has a wonderful set of tables of all kinds of stats at the back, and he has Thiele as an American! Steve Small, on the other hand, lists him as Italy/USA.

Thanks Karl.

David Holland agrees with me Thiele is Italian - that book is a little out of date now. :

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by karlcars
I knew Alfons Thiele and he was definitely Italian, but living in America in his later years. In my view he wouldn't qualify as American under the Andretti rule.

Actually, Karl, can I also ask a few questions as I know so little about him.

One, your tense above seems to indicate he's deceased? Is that the case?
Do you know what region of Italy he was from & did he return there in the end?
Did he Americanize his name as I have had no luck at all using my other US research tools?!

[David McKinney]

I know I've read somewhere - can't check at that mo' - that Thiele was American-born but resident in Italy from c1946

[D-Type]

Hmmm - a sort of Andretti in reverse!

[David Holland]

Alfonso/Alfonse Thiele - one of GP History's big mysteries. I would love to find out more.

I don't know where the USA/I dual nationality comes from but I read in one of Paul Frere's books that Mr Thiele was from the Alto Adige region of Northern Italy. Whether he was born there?

He had a strong racing connection with the Abath marque which goes with the Italian nationality but I can not confirm any US link unless he went on to reside there. If he is still alive he would be in his 80s now.

The GPDB (from 1997) is getting a little out of date now, I'm not sure if there'll be another edition. There are so many books that have filled that market in a better way.

[karlcars]

It's been many years since I've seen him; he was in and out of the New York area in the late 1960s and that's when I knew him -- a short, feisty character who was still active in racing. He'd have been known then as 'Al Thiele.'

BTW the Hayhoe/Holland book is of course 'out of date' but still contains lots of useful and thought-provoking information.

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by karlcars
He'd have been known then as 'Al Thiele.'

Thanks Karl. Now that's quite interesting.

There's an Al Thiele around now, from Millington, Tennessee, who races stockcars. Not "our" Al Thiele, obviously, but a relation?

There's also an Al G Thiele living in Buffalo, New York but that's probably diverting wildly from the garden path. What does appear obvious is that if he took American citizenship, he's still alive. If he moved back to Italy, then


By the way, David (McKinney), I was always under the impression he was born & lived in Italy until the mid 1950's, then moved to America, but was still based in Italy when he made his GP start in Italy, 1960, before finally upping sticks to America shortly after that, where, I'm presuming, he still lives - but all of this is presumption & not fact.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by karlcars
I knew Alfons Thiele and he was definitely Italian, but living in America in his later years. In my view he wouldn't qualify as American under the Andretti rule.

There is another driver that could be something like Andretti in reverse: Eddie Cheever. Born at Phoenix, his family moved to Rome when he was a baby and he start racing in Italy. Autosprint always considered him as Italian and they called him l'Americano di Roma (Roman American) and I think that at first he had an Italian racing licence (but I'm not sure). He always had American passport, but I couldn't fine any pic dated early 1980 for looking what flag he had on his car. Of course he had a big American flag on his helmet, but I don't know one he had (if any) on his car.
Later he "become" American without any confusion.

Ciao,
Guido

[Wilderness_AT]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
Venezuela three?? Chimeri, Cecotto and..... ???????? (piero Drogo was Italian!!)

Piero Drogo is as Italian as Mario Andretti is... The common denominator of all three Venezuelan drivers is Italy. Piero Drogo was born in Italy, as were Johnny Cecotto's parents and Etore Chimeri, who along with thousnads of other Italian refugees from WWII migrated to Venezuela. Drogo naturalized Venezuelan and raced internationally under the "YV" code for Venezuela.