187 replies to this topic

[VWV]

While hunting for other things on 'net I came across this http://www.geocities...2000/Lotus.html

I have never seen any drawings or photos of any F1 Lotus's after the 109 so I can't vouch for its validity. Comments anyone?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by VWV
While hunting for other things on 'net I came across this http://www.geocities...2000/Lotus.html

I have never seen any drawings or photos of any F1 Lotus's after the 109 so I can't vouch for its validity. Comments anyone?

Nice model-making, certainly.

It's certainly post '94 given the big hole for fuel.

For a putative '1995' model it lacks the high cockpit side padding and the ruddy great 'ole in the back of the airbox - although the front wing endplates are right. The winglets in front of the front wings look fairly modern too.

The general look of the car doesn't really say 1995 F1 to me - I would hazard a guess it it being a slightly later car from elsewhere that might have used the Lotus tunnel after the demise of Team...

I know Lotus had a new car (113, IIRC) in the design process at the time of their demise, but I have a sneaking feeling that that's not it.

[dolomite]

Pete, the high cockpit side padding did not become mandatory until 96. This looks like a 1995 car to me. Shame the photos aren't better quality. That nose cone with the lip around it looks reminiscent of the 95 Pacific?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by dolomite
Pete, the high cockpit side padding did not become mandatory until 96. This looks like a 1995 car to me. Shame the photos aren't better quality. That nose cone with the lip around it looks reminiscent of the 95 Pacific?

You're absolutely right re: the cockpit sides - my apologies - that does indeed make it a much more plausible 1995 car.

[VWV]

I would love to read the definitive history of Team Lotus's final years under Peter Colins, Peter Wright and Tony Rudd. I really would like to know what David Hunt tried to do with Team Lotus. I have read all sorts of rumours about Team Lotus reserection which have gone for naught. There has to be a good but sad story to write about those final years.

Unfortunatly my copy of Theme Lotus ends the story at 1986 and the Autocourse: History of The Grand Prix Car 1966-91 ends the story at 1991 so if Doug or Michael would like to complete the story ;)

[David Beard]

There were photos of the same wind tunnel model in the magazine of the Historic Lotus Register last year. It was described there as the Lotus 112, designed by Chris Murphy. Only a few components were ever made, apparently.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by VWV
I would love to read the definitive history of Team Lotus's final years under Peter Colins, Peter Wright and Tony Rudd. I really would like to know what David Hunt tried to do with Team Lotus. I have read all sorts of rumours about Team Lotus reserection which have gone for naught. There has to be a good but sad story to write about those final years.

Unfortunatly my copy of Theme Lotus ends the story at 1986 and the Autocourse: History of The Grand Prix Car 1966-91 ends the story at 1991 so if Doug or Michael would like to complete the story ;)

There was a lengthy story in an issue of BusinessF1 about the destruction of Lotus from the sponsorship/management side. If I had a scanner (actually I know someone with the issue and a scanner) I could put it up. Would take me several days to transcribe it otherwise.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


There was a lengthy story in an issue of BusinessF1 about the destruction of Lotus from the sponsorship/management side. If I had a scanner (actually I know someone with the issue and a scanner) I could put it up. Would take me several days to transcribe it otherwise.

I'd like to see that. I have a scanner/OCR if someone could get me a copy I'd do the grunt work

[VWV]

David, if possible I wouldn't mind see photos of the wind tunnel model from the magzine.

Ross I would definately like to read that article on Lotus's demise in BusF1 as I have never seen that magazine here in any of my regular magazine/books stores.

Anyone else have any stories or snippets of Lotus's last years?

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
There was a lengthy story in an issue of BusinessF1 about the destruction of Lotus from the sponsorship/management side. If I had a scanner (actually I know someone with the issue and a scanner) I could put it up. Would take me several days to transcribe it otherwise.

Ross, I'm with Ruairidh as I would also like to read this article. I know several of the parties involved in the demise of Team Lotus rather well, and I would enjoy seeing how much of the story Business F1 got right.

I have refrained from commenting on this subject as I know the people involved, and would not wish to damage them in any way. There has been far too much pain inflicted from the tragic end of Team.

[David Beard]

Welcome AH746!
I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing to encourage you to post more here of your own experiences with Lotus.

VWV...the pics as requested:

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by AH746
Ask away...

I shall endeavour to answer as many of your questions as possible.... Perhaps, I might post a document that was entitled "10X", which was a study conducted by Peter Wright and Chris Murphy on what it would have taken for a Team Lotus to challenge the then-dominant Williams-Renault brigade....

If you could post that, that would be great

[David Beard]

Originally posted by AH746
Okay, tried pasting the document of the Lotus T10X in, but it lost all its formating and makes it confusing to read.... How do I do the HTML thing? Or better still, atach a file???

Have you tried scanning as a .jpg file, and posting it as an image using the IMG button? (You have to have some FTP software and some webspace to put the file on). Or you could E Mail the file to one of us who have got used to these things, to post it for you.

[bigbrickz]

Originally posted by David Beard


Have you tried scanning as a .jpg file, and posting it as an image using the IMG button? (You have to have some FTP software and some webspace to put the file on). Or you could E Mail the file to one of us who have got used to these things, to post it for you.

If you already have the document as a text or word processor file then I wouldn't consider scanning it. And if it's a lengthy document it'll be a pain to fit into a forum posting in any case.

As David says the easiest thing is to put it on a web/ftp server and provide a link here. I'm happy to look after this if you email me the document, or perhaps Atlas would like to host it so that it remains archived on their system?

[Ross Stonefeld]

If needed I can also host it at http://ross.stonefeld.com The site is empty at the moment and I could use the visitors



In the meantime back to sorting out the 92-94 article...

[VWV]

Thanks David for the clearer wind tunnel pics and thanks to AH746 for his incite and look forward to hearing more about those final years and David Hunt's efforts. I also look forward to reading that article Ross. Isn't this forum amazing

I have been a lurker here for just over a year now. I haven’t posted that often as I have very little first hand knowledge of racing history, being 38 years old and living in Canada, but all I can offer is my enthusiasm and what I have learned so far. The things I have learned here in this forum are amazing.

I remember being 13 years old and reading about cars in Road & Track magazine and coming across an article written by Doug Nye about the Lotus 79. I thought it was the most amazing and beautiful racing car I have ever seen. I had to know more about Lotus. I spent hours in public libraries reading car magazines learning all I could about Lotus. I have followed them untill the end.

[Ross Stonefeld]

try

http://ross.stonefeld.com/lotus/

for AH746's data


Still working on that article...

[VWV]

AH746's copy of the memo was interesting evaluation of the team and gives us a glimps of the road map they wanted to take. And yes AH746 I would like to see more. Thanks Ross for hosting AH746's stuff

I remember reading about the 107 when it was launched showing the active ride height and monoshock front suspention. I will have go back to read what I have on the 107 and see how close they came to their plan. I know they went full active on the 107B.

The performance differential factors relative to the FW14/FW15 seem honestly enough although I don't know how Lotus seem to think that their are equal to Williams in the gearbox area, although I will buy the fact that the Cosworth was lighter and more fuel efficient then the Renault.

I would like to know how Lotus came up with projected relative performace factors for the 10X? What was up their sleeve. This type of memo is very similar to what I see at work, listing the what the end game is but the devil is in the details..........

Also who was JD mentioned as one of the attendees?

I remember reading about that famous 23 page outline that ACBC wrote while vactioning that gave birth to ground effects and wonder if anyone has seen a copy of this document?

[David Beard]

AH746...
Looking at the 10X document...

Active brake balance...please tell more. Did anyone actually do that?

Active aerodynamics...if the intention was to adjust the position of any aero significant body parts, wouldn't that have been illegal? Or were you talking about about adjusting the attitude of the whole car for aerodynamic benefit?

[Ray Bell]

Plenty of interest in that, I'm sure...

[Kojima_KE007]

Originally posted by AH746
Hey, just looking through my archives and I found this document....

ZA5D Installation in Lotus-Mugen-Honda Type 109B

File type is MS Word, so if Ross would like to post it as such, I will put it up!

Anyone interested?

AH

I'm interested!

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by VWV
[BI remember reading about that famous 23 page outline that ACBC wrote while vactioning that gave birth to ground effects and wonder if anyone has seen a copy of this document? [/B]

Wasn't ground effects under development at BRM years before Lotus caught onto the idea, with a couple of engineers that worked on that project moving later to Lotus. Peter Wright, I believe, was one.

BRM abandoned the project for some reason or other - money, probably!

[MCH]

Originally posted by Wuzak


Wasn't ground effects under development at BRM years before Lotus caught onto the idea, with a couple of engineers that worked on that project moving later to Lotus. Peter Wright, I believe, was one.

BRM abandoned the project for some reason or other - money, probably!

I believe I saved this image from this forum. Can't remember where and when though.

Drawing dates from 1969 iirc.

http://www.student.i...rm_groundfx.jpg

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by MCH


I believe I saved this image from this forum. Can't remember where and when though.

Drawing dates from 1969 iirc.

http://www.student.i...rm_groundfx.jpg

Thanks for the pic.

I remember reading about the ground effects project in an article about BRM in Motorsport a couple of years ago.

[dolomite]

I posted that picture originally. It comes from the Motor Sport article. Here's an attempt I made to create a better image from the drawing.



More about the story this project can also be found in Tony Rudd's book 'It Was Fun'.

[Ross Stonefeld]

http://ross.stonefel.....Type 109B.doc

If that somewhat strange URL doesnt work, you can download it directly from http://ross.stonefeld.com/lotus/

[ianm1808]

This is fascinating stuff AH746!! Thanks for showing it us and thanks Ross for hosting it.

AH746, any chance of fitting Active suspension to my Excel??

Also, I take it you were working for Team Lotus at the time of Irvine V Herbert at Monza? Would (or could) Team Lotus really have survived if the car had done as well as it looked like it was going to? I know it's a very simple question and it'll probably be a very difficult one to answer...

What other treasures do you posess? You're not going to get into trouble are you?

[Jhope]

erm ok...

please post it?;)

[ianm1808]

POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!POST IT!!!!!!!!

Is that trolling?

Thanks for the info. Yeah I remember the Active suspension Excels. There were two as far as I can remember. One was sold a couple of years ago at the auction where the Etna was sold to Paul Matty. I do find that kind of sad that that car wasn't put into production. It is a hell of a nice looking car. Although it does look kind of sad and forlorn sitting at the end of Matty's salesroom. I would especially like to have seen the Lotus Limo put into production as well. I think there would have been Jag Execs committing Hari-kari (As long as they sorted out the electrics!)

But an Active Excel..Jeez , that would have been a devastating car. The Excel was/is was one of the finest handling front-engined rear-drive cars.I love it when an Impreza or better still an M3 tries to sit on my tail approaching a twisty road (But I digress. ) Turbocharged? ****** hell!! (As long as they sorted out the electrics!!!)

Sorry for the diversion. I should remember that TL and LC are/were seperate companies.

So please post it. There's a lot of Lotus lovers on here and any insight into the team would be especially welcomed.

Could you answer another question? Was there any truth in the rumour that Richards was looking at rebadging the BAR's as Team Lotus?

And maybe you could also dispel a rumour I once heard at the Coys Festival whilst looking at a Lotus FJ (??? I think it was an FJ, but memories are hazy to day the least) that had been road registered (A very strange little device.) I shouldn't have been listening but someone there said in conversation that Ford had looked into buying the rights to Lotus at the time of the takeover of Stewart and that if they succeeded , Jags would now be Lotus'? Obviously , the Proton link to the road cars division would have probably put paid to that... Have Proton ever looked into reestablishing TL , Lotus Cars and Lotus Engineering as one company?

But so far, much appreciated....

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by AH746
But for the moment, I will just tell you that I have Jock Clear's end-of-season review on Team Lotus, it's drivers, its cars and its staff.... Worthwhile reading.... But you will have to persuade me to post it!!!

If we could persuade you to share, I'm sure that the review would be enjoyed by many.

However, at that point the team was in dire straits above and beyond the known issues.... Tommy Hilfiger's agent, Lawrence Stroll had made a personal loan to Team as had several other indoviduals, none of whom I will list here.

The problem is/was that the decision to file for court protection had already been made, and in the result was a case of flatering to deceive....

I complement your response. I know a bit of this subject as well, and I totally agree with your answer, and the tenor in which it was written.

[ianm1808]

Thank you for answering my questions ...

God , it sounds like you have been so close to getting that badge back onto the racetracks. I sincerely hope with all my heart (as no doubt a lot of TNFers and maybe even the RC brigade would too) that you succeed in acheiving it.

There are so many questions I could ask , so many memories I have , that you'd probably think "What the **** have I got myself into here?" Spa 1989 , Senna , Donnelly , Hakkinen's resigning and the subsequent Autosport issue with "Lotus Saved!" , the deal with Herbert and Ligier/Benetton , The Active cars , the 99 , Lamborghini , Honda , Renault , the Chapman family.... But I'll let someone else much more knowledgeable than I could ever hope to be ,as a 28 year old whose first sighting of an F1 car was a black and gold machine for 3 or so minutes on the news on a Sunday night , to ask....

And if you do succeed , I'll offer my services as official car polisher for free.

Good luck with the endeavour!

Ian.

P.s. Just wait until I'm in Paul Matty Sportscars buying yet another relay and I retell that story about the Etna... Maybe I'll make it 193mph???

P.P.S.. Just what were Warwick's first words after running back to the pits after scratching the top of his helmet?

[ianm1808]

Thanks yet again!

I do understand that there are things that you won't be able to go into and I can very much appreciate the reasons why.

Is that the time? I've got to be up early but i'll think up a couple more questions for you if you don't mind answering them between now and next.

Take it easy , AH...

Ian

P.s. Please someone ask some more questions , I don't want to take over this very interesting thread with my amateur questions!

P.P.S.. I kinda guessed that would have been Warwick's response...

[senna da silva]

AH746,
Thank you so much for all of the info and also for rekindling my hope that we may one day see TL back on the grid (I'm in NA also and if I could be of any help whatsoever, free of charge, I would be glad to offer my services). As a proud owner of a '69 Europa I am and have been a rabid Lotus fan all of my life, it was a great day for me when Senna signed for Lotus. Again thank you, and please keep this dialogue open as there are many more fans like me who pray for the day for TL's return.
Cheers,

[bigbrickz]

Thanks for the documents and the inside story AH746. I've been a Lotus fan (thanks very much Dad!) since 1981 and it's great to hear that members of the original team are still working to bring Lotus back.

Starting from the beginning (for me) I have few questions from just before you started at Lotus which you may have some information about :

- How disruptive to the 1981-82 seasons was the banning of the Lotus 88 double-chassis concept? Did TL expect that it might be deemed illegal and have backup plans?

- Why was the Lotus 91 of 1982 not up to the level of the similarly engined Williams and McLaren? Damn that was a beautiful car...

- I was really looking forward to 1983 and the arrival of the Renault engine. What went so wrong with the Lotus 93T?

- How was the Gérard Ducarouge-lead team able to design and build the performant Lotus 94T in less than 2 months in the middle of 1983?

[senna da silva]

Just how heavy were those first active systems and how much of a power draw were they?

[Ross Stonefeld]

In a way id rathre have the Lotus F1 name be dormant than 'fake'. Im sure you guys had all the good intention in the world, but Prost or BAR having the naming rights doesnt make it Lotus imo. Now if David Richards said "guys I got money, and a factory, why dont you move your stuff to Brackley and we can start over again" id understand, but it seems to me more like a purchase of the name and not the identity. And I think its the emotional value of Lotus more than the paperwork legislation. If Mclaren said "we'll give you 9mil a year and a race winning car" and AH called me one day and said "look we've got customer Cosworths and we can just cover your expenses" id move to Norfolk. But im a silly boy sometimes.

[senna da silva]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
In a way id rathre have the Lotus F1 name be dormant than 'fake'. Im sure you guys had all the good intention in the world, but Prost or BAR having the naming rights doesnt make it Lotus imo. Now if David Richards said "guys I got money, and a factory, why dont you move your stuff to Brackley and we can start over again" id understand, but it seems to me more like a purchase of the name and not the identity. And I think its the emotional value of Lotus more than the paperwork legislation. If Mclaren said "we'll give you 9mil a year and a race winning car" and AH called me one day and said "look we've got customer Cosworths and we can just cover your expenses" id move to Norfolk. But im a silly boy sometimes.

Indeed a resurrection is a much better scenario than a rebadge (as long as Richards isn't involved). And in the same vane if Ferrari offered me $50M and Lotus only offered expenses I would pick TL every day of the week.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by AH746
...and with the exception of BAR, is the only team in modern history not to be named after the team principal...

Yeah but being named after the sponsor is arguably even worse. There was an awful bizarre irony in Tyrrell being bought out to become the first real corporate race team, board of directors and all. At least Toyota has an internal racing division.

[Ross Stonefeld]

http://ross.stonefel...otus/Jock Clear's%20report%20of%201994%20season.doc

http://ross.stonefeld.com/lotus/

[VWV]

Thank you AH746 for the document and to Ross for hosting it

My inital impression after a first reading was how the lack of resources impacted the Team in running the cars properly which was not surprising but I was somewhat surprised by the tone of Jock's opinion in the lack of organization and leadership in the team which I assume where in survival mode at that time and Jock being a race engineer did not have to "concern" with team mangament issues.

Some questions for AH746. What are your opinions regarding Jock's report? Are they valid and what do you think if his abilities, I know he went to race engineer Jacques Villeneuve to the world championship in 97. He seemed to be neagative about Johnny Herbert and more positive about Alex Zanardi. Last question, how much of role or influence did Tony Rudd and Peter Wright have in the engineering of the cars in those last years?

Once again thanks for your sharing your views with us.

[bigbrickz]

Thanks AH for taking the time to answer my questions (plenty more where they came from... ).

Though I didn't understand half of it properly, the new document is awesome, and provided me with much more of a feeling of "being there" than anything else I've read about F1.


To put this document in context :

1994 was Josh Clear's first year as Race Engineer, he joined TL in 1991 as Senior Designer. Prior to that he graduated in 1987, worked for Lola on Indy cars in 1989 and then moved to F1 with Benetton.

In 1995 he joined Williams as David Coulthard's Race Engineer and then left for BAR in 1999 where he remains to this day.


There's a fair amount of information concerning the 1994 Team Lotus season here

[Mark A]

AH,

Thanks for the insights, I'm a huge Lotus fan (currently on my 3rd one (Exige this time )) and always supported TL, I'd be interested to hear what the team thought when Phillipe Adams was brought in for Spa. I remember some very negative comments on the TV commentary about him feathering the throttle through Eau Rouge.

[Doug Nye]

AH - fascinating information provided on this thread. Thanks a million.

God, it's sad reading Clear's report...apart from the more modern detail - of course - it reads like a virtual carbon copy of late-history engineer reports penned by engineers at BRM, Cooper, Maserati and probably so many more that were once great, now defunct. The frustrations, deficiencies, economies and incapabilities cited seem common to all failing racing constructors...

A sad period. Sic transit gloria, indeed.

DCN

[bigbrickz]

Just to squeeze a last question in for now (and I'm sure I should know the answer to this) but what happened to the missing Lotuses of 1990-1994 :

Type 103
Type 104
Type 105
Type 106
Type 108

??

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by bigbrickz
Just to squeeze a last question in for now (and I'm sure I should know the answer to this) but what happened to the missing Lotuses of 1990-1994 :

Type 103
Type 104
Type 105
Type 106
Type 108

??

As far as i know 103 is an F1 car that was abandoned in the changover to the Wright regime.
104 is the Lotus Carlton
105 and 106 are Esprits for SCCA racing
108 is Chris Boardman's Olympic bike! (110 is another bike).

111 is the Elise
112 is or at least would've been the car that started this thread ;)

113 - left out for superstitious reasons?

114 the 1995 Esprit GT
115 the Elise GT1

116? - no idea - are these the 340R and similar things?
117?

118 the M250 concept car.

[VWV]

from http://www.race-cars...lity/lotusr.htm

Type 101 1989 4 Formula 1 with Honda gone used Judds, not great
Type 102 1990 ? Formula 1 Lamborghini V12 says it all
Type 103 1991 0 Formula 1 designed but not produced
Type 104 Carlton/Omega 1990 ? absurdly fast hot-up of family car
Type 105 1992 5 racing X180R IMSA Supercars Drivers Champ Doc Bundy
Type 106 1992 20 X180R roadgoing homolgation special
Type 107 199? ? Formula 1
Type 108 1992 1 prototype Olympic bicycle Gold Medal Barcelona
Type 109 199? ? Formula 1 last Lotus F1 car?
Type 110 199? ? production version of type 108 bicycle
Type 111 199? ? The Lotus Elise
Type 112 199? 0 Description
Type 113 None 0 number not allocated
Type 114 1996 ? Esprit V8
Type 115 1996 ? Lotus GT1

[Doug Nye]

AH - you've passed interesting comments on Herbert and Lamy - and the other geezer too. Would you care to comment on TL's experiences with Mika Hakkinen?

DCN

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by AH746

The one that isn't mentioned, is the 102C.... A mule fitted with the Isuzu Sport 3.5 litre V12 unit, as tested in August of 1991.....

Thanks for the many fascinating pieces you've posted on this thread!

The Lotus-Isuzu one's been mentioned a few times - it got a bit of coverage in the comics at the time, but nobody seems to be willing to say much about how serious it was. Given that there was an Isuzu engine going into the new Elan, and the relationships between Lotus and Isuzu and GM... was this a back-door way of trying to get a GM tie-up for a serious go at F1, or was it a case of "there's an engine Isuzu have got sitting on the shelf and they're part of the family...."...?

[RX-7]

Hello AH746, I am pleased beyond words,to hear of the possible resurgence of Team Lotus. Having been a fan since 1972. I was wondering, if you could answer a historical question about the Lotus 99T. How did the driver manual operate the T's Active suspension? Were there several knobs and switchs? And which knob or switch controlled which type of suspension setting? BTW, I also do free polishing!He HE!

[RX-7]

Thank you for your attention. All the reports on Ross's site are fascinating,Thank you for sharing such privileged information.My fingers (and toes) are crossed, for your efforts to bring about the return of Team Lotus. Best of luck!
Cheers