187 replies to this topic

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Ruairidh
OK, I'll bite - who were the 5 contemporary drivers and were they available to Peter Warr?

What makes you so sure the 1985 car (pretty as it was) and Team capability were of title winning caliber?

I'll bite and risk too :-)
Rosberg, Piquet, Alboreto, Prost, de Angelis (all given the same support Senna had). But, yes, they were not (all) available. Mansell too but I left him out due to his history with Lotus. About the 1985 Lotus? It was a car capable of scoring poles, leading races and winning - especially if we analyze the opposition: Williams' car came on song only towards the end of the year, Ferrari's car lost it by then, Brabham never figured strongly due, among the other factors, to tyres, McLaren was the only other really consistent car and had Prost driven for Lotus instead for McLaren, he would have been champion as well.

Hrvoje

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Burd


I would have to respectfully disagree. I tend to believe that no one else would have won a single race in '86 and '87 as it appeared that Lotus was falling off in terms of performance relative to Williams and McLaren. But we could argue that point for eternity and never come to an acceptable conclusion.

Perhaps it would be better to discuss whether or not Senna could have won a race or two in '88 with the Lotus 100T...;)

It would have depended on who would drive for McLaren in 1988 instead of Senna. About 1986 and 1987, you may well be right. Competition was then much stronger then in 1985. But I'm positive that Lotus' 1985 car was relatively stronger than McLaren's 1986 car and we all know how the 1986 season ended.

Hrvoje

[AH746]

Okay, I stand very much corrected on the Ferrari 1988 thing!!! :-(

I thought the original question - which I took as "Would Team Lotus have been better off without Senna from 1984-7?" was interesting and on topic.

I think TL needed Senna... Had they not had a driver who really bound the team together, gave it something to hope for, then I dare say the team would not have made it out of the 1980's alive...

Lotus had a title winning car in 1985, I'm convinced.

The 95T was a truly great car, with many great innovations on it.... Title winning car, yes... The team, however, didn't have the fire it had in earlier years....

Perhaps it would be better to discuss whether or not Senna could have won a race or two in '88 with the Lotus 100T...

I don't think anyone could have won in the 100T.... There was so much erratic data on aerodynamics that the team never really got to grips with it.,.. At that point the team was using two wind tunels, and one of them (still don't know which) was out of calibration, and the results in the tunnel did not transfer to the racetrack.

Also, remember what I said about suspension... The team had lost out on 12 whole months worth of geometry data whilst running Active... Williams also suffered, but much less so because their car at least ran conventional springs... One might even argue that this is what fate befell the 107C and 109, what with TL having running the only TRU active car in 1993, with absolutely no spring actions whatsoever....

BTW.. Just looking through my archives here and stumbled across five lo-res images of the wind-tunnel models the team used in the early 1980's... Some are obviously the 86/88... Unfortunately, I don't know how to do the web thing with them, so I can't send them out to you, unless you E-mail me!!! :-(

Also noticed I have sveeral more juicy documents here too!!!!

[Burd]

If you want someone to host those photos, I could do it for you...

burdp@motorsport.com

I would *love* to see the windtunnel models from the 99T as I am particularly obsessed with that car and have been for the past 18 years ;)

[AH746]

Don't have any such shots of the 99T... Just some early 1980 types (81, 86, 888 etc)

[Bonde]

There are som good shots of 99T and other F1 Lotuses on this site: www.club-lotus.fr

[VWV]

Thanks for the link Bonde Real nice web site. Too bad my french sucks. There is some real nice detail photos of the cars.

[Burd]

Originally posted by AH746
Don't have any such shots of the 99T... Just some early 1980 types (81, 86, 888 etc)

Oh, heh. When you said 86-88, I thought you meant the years as opposed to the type numbers. I would be happy to host anything you have. If it has to do with TL, I want to see it!;)

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Burd

If it has to do with TL, I want to see it!;)

Quite right that man! My feelings exactly!!!

[Burd]

Originally posted by AH746
Senna had a driving style that was devastating when it came to turbos... Whilst he was in mid corner, he would be constantly blipping the throtle, keeping the turbochargers spinning, so that as soon as he apexed, he could be on full power instantly, whereas other drivers, team mate included, would suffer from turbo lag... Great for qualifying, as the car would have enough fuel for a hot lap.... Dreadful for the race itself as he would be devouring his fuel supply way too early and would then have to run conservative and lean for the remainder just to make the flag.... That would go some way to explain both his dominance in qualifying, and his subsequent failur[B]e to convert those positions into race results...

Last night I watched an old video I found of Senna test driving an Acura NSX @ Suzuka where they had a camera on his feet. Even in that car you could really see the way he constantly stabbed at the throttle through the corners. Amazing stuff.

Concerning the above comments about Senna using up his fuel too quickly, do you guys think he might have won more races with TL if refueling stops had been implemented during the turbo era?

[AH746]

Absolutely yes to the question of Senna and refuelling... He would have been able to drive absolutely flat out for the duration of the race, thereby making the race nothing more than an extended qualifying session, and we all know how he did on those!!!

[Burd]

Originally posted by AH746
Absolutely yes to the question of Senna and refuelling... He would have been able to drive absolutely flat out for the duration of the race, thereby making the race nothing more than an extended qualifying session, and we all know how he did on those!!!

Very interesting. This is something that has never occurred to me before. Oh, what could have been!

[VWV]

I was looking at the pictures of the Lotus race cars on the Club Lotus France site http://www.club-lotu...ndex.php?id=392 last weekend and one of the thoughts that came to me was how the design and manufacturing practices between 1988 with the T100 and 1992 with the 102, seemed to me to have regress compared to their previous efforts. The design in my opinion seemed less integrated as a whole, there are all sorts of little details in the pictures, especially with the Dernie cars 101 & 102 Camel cars, that have brackets that seem odd in detail, and how various components are packaged (I am a mechanical designer by profession) and not as well thought out. I really dislike the cables used to support the rear wing. The design details seem to have improved greatley on the 107 and 109.

I'm wondering if the declining funding available to the team had an effect on Dernie when designing the 101 because it is very angular and simple in surface contours for the bodywork, which would make it more simple to manufacture, but then again his FW11 was relatively simple in shape.

AH746, you mentioned in a previous post that the team was using two wind tunnels and one was out of calibration, I remember reading somewhere recently, Mike Lawrence stated that the tunnel out of calibration was the March wind tunnel but he couldn't go into more details for legal reasons.

[AH746]

VWV... What you say about the windtunnel certainly ties in with my belief... The other tunnel we used was, I think, Imperial College (A Honda tunnel)

As for the cables used to support the rear wing element, a lot of the credit for disposing of them on the 109 has to do with the regulation change that prompted Pedro Lamy's crash at Silverstone circa 1994... Also, with the 107, the car was less dependent upon rear wing as was the old 102's....

Anyway, you've all been nagging me for some nuggets... So here is a technical document from 1992... Not much, but maybe I will post the team's 1993 and 1994 Team Message later... Depends upon the level of persuasion I guess!!!

Regards
AH

107 CHASSIS PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCES AT 9.9.92

In an attempt to further identify the source of the apparent performance and handling differences between chassis 107 02 and the other tow chassis, a number of dimensional and geometric checks were carried out on the cars during the Spa rebuild.

Geometrically, the cars were found to have very similar characteristics, but chassis 02’s front ride height calibration bush, an internally threaded shouldered bush from which the front ride height is measured, was found to have been incorrectly fitted. The bush locates in a counterbored hole in the top face of the front chassis and had been fitted with a 1.4mm glue thickness between shoulder and counterbore. Raising the bush by 1.4mm has the effect of reducing the front ride height by a similar amount for any given measurement ie: 28mm as measured would give an actual front axle ride height of 26.6mm (from ‘Z’ 0 – 5mm)

Reducing the front ride height by 1.4mm typically gives an increase in front downforce of 30lb at 150mph (dependent on aero settings) and a corresponding aero downforce balance shift of .75% FWD (based upon the findings of .25 scale Wind Tunnel Testing)

Conclusions

These findings probably explain the handling differences between the 107 02 and the other two chassis, although as the front ride height is generally adjusted in response to driver feedback (with regards to chassis grounding) rather than absolute values it is probably less significant than the Wind Tunnel data would indicate (107 02 typically practiced and raced with a higher ‘measured’ ride height than 03 or 04). The bush height on 107 02 has now been corrected.

[VWV]

AH746, Thanks for all the reports you have given us in this thread. Feel free to post anything you can which could give us incite to the inner workings of the team.

I'm still waiting for a definitive book on Lotus. The final years have not been documented properly yet, possibly for legal reasons. One of the great things about Doug Nye's BRM books is the way he uses BRM letters, reports and documents to let the characters also tell the story in their own contemporary words and not only the authors/historians point of view.

March Wind Tunnel, here is the thread in which Mike Lawrence talks about how March screwd Lotus
http://forums.atlasf...y=&pagenumber=2

Remember the March Wind Tunnel which was claimed to be the best ever to that time? Lotus used it and lost its way. March Grand Prix continued to use Southampton because they could not afford to use the March Wind Tunnel, which was being operated as a separate profit-centre. The trouble with the March tunnel was that the insulation was 14,000 (fourteen thousand) times more efficient than optimal. It was a pressure cooker and it really screwed Lotus.

[AH746]

Okay, I didn't didn't need too much arm-twisting... Here is the 1993 message....

As for the documenting of TL's last years, you are right... there are legal reasons for the apparent silence, but I can tell you that I have in my possession a document that gives some insight into the long-term aspirations for Team Lotus... the document is dated circa 1991, and you would not like it...

Alas, A) It is back home in Wales and B) I can't disclose it...

BTW... Anyone want a piece of F1 history??? Back in Wales I have the refuelling hose (The full assembly minus the rig itself) that TL used in 1994... I am pretty sure that no other has come onto the market!!!!

Regards
AH

PS: Enjoy the following....


THE COMING SEASON

1993 – CAPITALISING ON OUR POTENTIAL

During 1992, Team Lotus demonstrated to its competition and the world that its philosophy and approach to modern Grand Prix racing can work.

Our reputation as a team with determination, dedication and guts grew during 1992 as did respect for our capability, a stark contrast to the clinical clones of our opposition.

Although the winter of ’92 was still a difficult time for the company, I believe we now stand poised for a serious assault on the 1993 Championship season.

Our target for 1993 must be to finish in the top 3 in the Constructors Championship, and this I strongly believe can be achieved.

The disappointment of the ’92 season was the lack of reliability which robbed us of many points and 4th in the Championship ahead of Ferrari.

We must achieve reliability and results this year as a repeat of 92 cannot be justified to our sponsors or the press; their expectations are higher!

Our achievement in competing and beating competitors with far greater budgets should be a source of great satisfaction to all and the prospect of taking on Williams, Benetton and McLaren provides us with an exciting challenge.

The challenging spirit evident in the team combined with a resolve to achieve technical excellence provides us with a unique opportunity to once again exceed expectations.

Team Lotus created an enviable record of success over the last 30 years and it is our responsibility to add to that success.

Our mission in 1993 is to add new photographs to the Victory Corridor in Ketteringham Hall, and in doing so add to our reputation, our respect and in so doing secure the future of the company.

[Ruairidh]

Very very interesting - please do post more when you are able.

Interesting also that there are still felt to be legal reasons for the apparent silence - I assume the risk of defamation actions is at the root of the concern? Most every other Statute of Limitation ought to have run by now, or am I missing the blindingly obvious?

[Burd]

Originally posted by AH746
BTW... Anyone want a piece of F1 history??? Back in Wales I have the refuelling hose (The full assembly minus the rig itself) that TL used in 1994... I am pretty sure that no other has come onto the market!!!!

Good lord, that thing must be pretty big! How much?

[AH746]

Yes, it is pretty big... About 20-30 feet long, and one person could (just about) lift it....

It sits on the bedroom floor of the room at my mothers house, alongdise a 40% scale carbon fibre monocoque for the T101, and also there is a 40% scale wind tunnel bodytop (also carbon fibre) for the 100T!!!

It's great to work for a legendary team, I'm telling you!!!

[the moon monkey]

Dear AH746

This thread is most fascinating - your insights are most appreciated.

I was a big fan of Derek Warwick and I wonder whether you have any recollections of his time with Team Lotus in 1990 (not a classic Lotus year...) and how Derek rated against other Lotus drivers such as Piquet and why he did not stay with the team into 1991 (instead returning to sportscars). I remember there being such optimism for the 1990 team, however, it turned out worse than 1989 - can you pinpoint any reasons for this?

Many thanks.

[Breadmaster]

Originally posted by AH746
Yes, it is pretty big... About 20-30 feet long, and one person could (just about) lift it....

It sits on the bedroom floor of the room at my mothers house

Bet she loves dusting that!

[AH746]

I think my room is going to be one of those cases where my mother says: "I left it exactly the way it was when you left (Four years ago)"... I expect there will be plenty of dust!!!!

If and when I go back, I will be able to open up my case there that has some incredible stuff... There are documents that literally document the last days of TL before David found himself in control.... Very interesting stuff....

[AH746]

Slightly related addition to the thread... just came across two pics of the Type 78 in the wind tunnel if anyone is interested....

[AH746]

Moon Monkey... Sorry I missed your question... I will try to answer...

Derek Warwick in 1990 was EXACTLY what the team needed.. he brought calm to a team that was desperately trying to make a throughbred out of a pig (The 102)... As to how he rated against other drivers.... typical of F1, had he been with Team in 1992, I am sure that he would have been at the cutting edge of F1, but the 102 simply didn't give him a chance... the Lambo was great on power, but, as with all V12's, was thristy and heavy... All that weight at the back and the car understeered massively.

Why didn't he stay in 1991??? We couldn't afford him... For that season we had a budget of 6 million, just enough to keep McLaren in paperclips... besides, would you stay driving for a team that A) almost killed you B) almost killed your team-mate and C) almost folded?

As for why 1990 was such a downturn in TL's fortunes.. I think it can be partially attributed to the Lamborghini engine, and technically, the fact that the previous year's chassis, the T101 was the most rigid chassis Lotus had built, even to this day.

[dolomite]

Originally posted by AH746
Slightly related addition to the thread... just came across two pics of the Type 78 in the wind tunnel if anyone is interested....

Yes please!!!!!

[hueb_s]

Originally posted by AH746 As for why 1990 was such a downturn in TL's fortunes.. I think it can be partially attributed to the Lamborghini engine, and technically, the fact that the previous year's chassis, the T101 was the most rigid chassis Lotus had built, even to this day. [/B]

And how do you rate the chassis quality of the Dernie designs (101 and 102) compared to the previous Doucarouge designs of 99T or 100T. Some say, they were superior in terms of aerodynamic but rather lacked engine power. Was that really the problem? I think the 102B was not so bad in 1991 despite the small budged and the -again- changed engine supplier, which the car was not contructed for...

[the moon monkey]

AH746 - many thanks your reply. Most appreciated. You answer why he did not stay on into 1991 extremely well...!

I was absolutely gutted about Derek's 1990 season - it turned out to be an absolute disaster.... I was convinced that it was a great chance for him to move back up the grid - which probably made Lotus's perfomance even worse in my own mind...

regards,

TheMoonMonkey

[AH746]

The Dernie designs were 'svelte'... They had a classic waistline to them and were significantly smaller in frontal area to Ducarouge's work... Did the 101 and 102 lack horsepower.... Sure they did... the Tickford 5-valve programme of 1989 was a total waste of effort, time and money.... Clutching at straws.

I don't think we saw the true potential of the 102 until it reached it's "D" configuration, and by that time it was hopelessly outdated with pullrod suspension, obsolete aerodynamics and an engine that was 2-3 specs lower than the class.

As for Moon Monkey's statement.... 1990 was a disaster in many respects... And after the dismal showing at Spa in 1989, left the team open to the vultures... I have paperwork here which shows that Eddie Jordan was in discussion with BAT for an acquisiton of Team Lotus for the sum of $1.5 million... That fell through, and Peter's Collins and Wright took the helm.... Many might wonder what would have happened had EJ been in charge.... Would TL still be here and would it be the same TL that we all knew and loved.....

The enthusiasm at the beginning of the season was of epic proportions... Lamborghini V12 engines... RJR having signed on for "one more year"... A hard charger in Warwick and a hot-shot by the name of Donnelly... The ingredients were there, but key elements were not.

[Twin Window]

1990 and 1991 weren't kind to Derek in any respect. Aside from Team business in general, Martin's shunt was a horror story, and then came Paul at Oulton...

Having known Derek since 1980, it fell to me at AS to accomodate Derek's wishes followng Paul's tragic demise. Not a pleasant experience, but you do what you have to for your mates.

[rosemeyer]

Twinny God bless you

[Bonde]

AH746,

What feature or characteristic made pullrod suspension "hopelessly outdated"? Was it the inability to readily raise the nose of the car for aerodynamic reasons or was it something else? All else being equal, pullrod means less frontal area in the tension member, and lower center of gravity as the spring/damper unit can go on the floor - but there are packaging issues (aero and access) and the lack of compression relief of the lower wisbone.

[AH746]

Twinny... I well remember Oulton Park... I wasn't there but the aftershock was huge.... And to reiterate the gesture, Derek was/is lucky to have friends like you.

The pullrod suspension did indeed interfere aerodynamically with the car, and not just from the raised nose perspective... The actual dampers had to be located outside of the monocoque and were therefore in the airstream... As you may or may not recall, the 107A went to a mono-shock arrangement which was nicely concealed beneath the front cowling...

Interestingly, Arrows revisited the idea several years later, but if memory recalls, abandoned it for the following season.

As for your technical appraisal of the concept... Spot on... But, as years went on, ballast became more readily available, and that further negated any benefit gained from it.

[maplestone71]

I've just been re-reading this fascinating thread and curiosity has got the better of me.

Does anyone know anything about the Type 103 which IIRC Frank Dernie started design work on during 1990, but the car was then shelved under the Collins / Wright rescue package, most likely due to budget. I seem to remember a picture in Autosport when this was announce with a picture of Mika Hakkinen standing alongside a 103 scale model, which included a raised nose design. What else does anyone know about this design?

Through early 1991 I seem to remember there were reports that then Lotus designer, Enrique Scalabroni, was working on a new Lotus design (as opposed to further warmed-over versions of the 102), but then he left around August 1991. Was this continuiing what Dernie had started with the 103 or something completely new? Also, why did he leave after such a short period?

[AH746]

New Lotus website... Images of Type 112 posted. Here is the thread.

http://forums.autosp...ight=team lotus

[TennisUK]

I've just re-read this thread for the first time in about 8 years - it's a really, really interesting read and I'd love to hear more from AH746 if he's still around?

[AH746]

I've just re-read this thread for the first time in about 8 years - it's a really, really interesting read and I'd love to hear more from AH746 if he's still around?

Very much alive and kicking...

[maplestone71]

Hello AH746!

"Frustrated" here having missed out on a Lotus sponsorship pack from 1991 which included some Type 103 drawings ...

[Thundersports]

Hi AH enjoyed reading your recollections. can you or anyone else enlighten me in to why it was specifically Monza that Guy Edwards was relieved of his passes etc?