39 replies to this topic

[Wakeley]

I'd be most grateful for information, memories, photos, etc.. about Doug, as I am planning to research a history about him and his cars. I was pleased to see that this board celebrated his birthday (something Autosport has failed to do, ahem..). I talked to him some two years ago in an effort to research my LDS (chassis 7 Climax) which now nears its complete and accurate rebuild back to 1964 Rand GP spec. Unfortunately when I called, he had just fallen off his roof, and I think his wife had just passed away so he was not in the right frame of mind to be able to help, I also think he is not that interested in the past and in some bloke in the UK with his old car asking silly questions.... I now hear he has moved from his home in Henley en Clip near J'Burg as my letter to him was returned. Just after getting the car, I received some excellent help from South Africa, including some photos as reproduced in the Half Ton Formula et al. Also, the Sheldon / Rabagliati book has been of some additional help, but has some admitted inconsistencies in its entries. Other historical references including the various reference books that mention the marque don't seem to add up either, appearing to misquote the chassis numbers, and drivers in various races and engines in certain cars. So, in helping to set the records straight, I'd be very interested to hear from people who knew him, raced with him and perhaps those who have old programmes and photos of the cars. I am particularly interested in the colours of the cars, in the badges and the dash layout including steering wheel. Also, information on the team he represented with Piet de Klerk of Otello Nucci. Any help will be very gratefully received.

[fines]

I seem to recall a lot of confusion about LDS chassis numbers, maybe Doug (Nye) can help?

[Felix]

Wakeley, if you send me a private mail I can help you with contacts who can/should supply all the required info.

BTW, the Brabham raced by Peter de Klerk (yep, unusually for an Afrikaner, Peter's name was spelt thus, and not as per the Dutch PIETER) for Jack Holme was previously raced for Holme by Bruce van der Merwe - father of Alan, who won the 2003 British F3 championship.

[Bladrian]

That address for Doug should read 'Henley on Klip'.

[Reyna]

Felix Muelas wrote at the Spanish Forum this list of the
LDS

[Allen Brown]

My Spanish isn't good but the above appears to be a translation of an article by Peter Du Toit and Jannie van Aswegen in Classic Car Africa December 1994 pp31-33.

At the end of that article the authors note: "This article is based on current knowledge and research. Any additional information or corrections will be appreciated".

I can add or correct very little but I would note that the latter history of LDS No 4 seems to be confused with that of No 7. I doubt Hume had two LDS cars and sold both to the Domingos. It is possible that No 4 formed the basis of No 5 (as Bosman once told someone he bought his car from Hume) or that No 4 contributed some components, such as its frame, to No 7.

Felix - do you have a source that can take this research forward?

Allen

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by fines
I seem to recall a lot of confusion about LDS chassis numbers, maybe Doug (Nye) can help?

Doug Serrurier didn't put chassis numbers on his cars so subsequent historians have had to make up systems. The first I saw, and still possibly the best, appears in the very first Formula 1 Register book, John Thompson's 1976 book on the 1.5-litre F1. My research was based heavily on his work.

Jannie van Aswegen then took up the baton and developed our knowledge of these cars. He was good enough to provide me with an excellent set of histories of the 10 cars in the mid-1980s.

In 1994, Peter du Toit and Jannie published an article in Classic Car Africa which gave their latest thinking. No 2 and No 3 were reversed from my 'system' and there remained some confusion about whether No 5 was the same car as No 4; when No 6 ended and No 7 began; and whether No 8 or No 9 came first. However, it was a hugely impressive piece of detective work.

Meanwhile, Mike Lawrence had made an appaling job of understanding the cars in his 1989 book on the 1945-65 F1 cars and Doug Nye had the misfortune of using much of Lawrence's material in his otherwise magnificent book on the same period. With the exception of the snippet that No 5 first went to Hume, this material should be ignored.

Many mysteries remain. My thread on 10 Tenths about SA F1 does touch on some of these cars and we may, as a result, make some small progress. I hope this thread can also add to the publicly available knowledge.

Allen

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Wakeley
I now hear he has moved from his home in Henley en Clip near J'Burg as my letter to him was returned.

Wakeley, I hope all your questions have been answered, but if you do need Doug's new address, please let me know & I'll supply it & his new telephone number.

[Felix]

Allen, my primary source is one of those mentioned at length (Jannie vA). I have advised Jannie of Wakeley's interest, and suggested they get together. I will be in SA again in February, and intend seeing Doug Serrurier (with Jannie) then. But, I guess the best available book (SPRINGBOK GRAND PRIX) on the era was written and published by two friends of mine (Robert Young and Malcolm Kinsey) and they still have limited quantities of new books (but regummed as the original spine gumming came loose over time in storage) available. Should anybody be interested I can arrange copies (signed by both).

[Allen Brown]

Felix

Give my best regards to Jannie - it's some years since I was in contact with him. I would love to get up to date with him and with his latest research. Could you ask him what he thinks of my suspicions about the fate of LDS 04?

I have an old and well-thumbed copy of Springbok Grand Prix which has now almost fallen apart through constant use. A new copy would be great.

Regards

Allen

[Hieronymus]

I last heard that Doug was in very poor health and that he was also very much in the care of his old friend and fellow racer, Jackie Pretorius.

After the tragedy that struck the Pretorius family towards the end of last year, I am not so sure about Doug's current wellbeing.

[Mattthecat]

I am trying to find out which LDS' were driven in the South African GPs.
With the asistance of Felix' post on the spanish board (mind you with a web-based translation :-) I have come up with the following:

1962 Serrurier LDS 06
1963 Serrurier 06 and Tingle 01
1965 Pretorius 02 and Tingle 01
1967 Tingle 10
1968 Tingle 10

Now in most sources the cars are been called Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3B (I even saw a mention of Mk5 once)

The Brabham-based cars are 08-10 (so would be mk3-3B / or mk3-5) with 08 and 09 on a BT10 basis and 10 on a BT11.

But where is the dividing line between 01-07?
Which cars are Mk1 and Mk2 if that naming is even appropriate...
All based on Coopers, 02 on a T45, 03 on a T56, 06 on a lowline T53, the others not been specified


Any corrections and adds would be highly welcomed.

[David Holland]

I've been checking through some old correspondence from Doug Serrurier and I have a list he completed on the "History of LDS Cars".

There is some confusion over the total number of cars. Doug himself lists 13 but many books state 10. My feeling is that 3 of the cars were re-built making the full list of 13.

The list as sent is something like this:-

1) Mk 1 - Climax 1100 for Doug Serrurier in yellow
2) Mk 1 - Alfa 1500 for Doug Serrurier in white with black stripe
3) Mk 1 - Alfa 1500 for Errol Hammon in green
4) Mk 1 - Porsche 1500 for John Love in silver
5) Mk 1 - Alfa 1500 for Dave Hume in blue

6) Mk 2 - Alfa 1500 for Sam Tingle in green
7) Mk 2 - Alfa 1500 for Doug Serrurier in blue
8) Mk 2 - Alfa 1500 for Gene Bosman in green
9) Mk 2 - Climax 1500 for George Mennie in green

10) Mk 3B - Climax 2700 for Sam Tingle in green
11) Mk 3 - Climax 2000 for Doug Serrurier in red
12) Mk 3B - Ford 1600 for Jack Holmes in silver with black stripe
13) Mk 3B - Climax 2000 for Doug Serrurier in red

I suspect that the first two cars were re-built as 6 and 9 and became Mk 2s like the way the ERA cars evolved and 4 was re-built as 5, as discussed earlier. These cars are mentioned as damaged and rebuilt in that excellent article from Classic Car Africa in Dec 1994.
The Mk 3 was a bigger car and like the earlier models was based on Cooper designs. The later cars because of the assistance from Brabham in copying the BT10 & 11 were known as the Mk 3B.

It looks like the 4 Mk 1 cars were built in 1961 and one was re-built later that year.
In 1962 two Alfa powered Mk 2 cars were built as well as the two re-builds from earlier chassis.
In 1964 Doug built his larger Mk 3 and in 1965 three Brabham influenced Mk 3B cars appeared; Sam Tingle's based on F1 and raced in the GPs with the final 2 cars based on the F2 model.

So my estimate for the championship cars would be:-
Doug Serrurier in his blue (&white) Mk 2 for the GPs in 1962 & 1963 (nq in 1965) with Sam Tingle in his green Mk 1 (or re-built Mk 2) in 1963 & 65 and Jackie Pretorius nq'ing in his Mk 1 re-built in 65.
Sam Tingle's Mk 3B is more straight-forward (being number 10 in both lists) appearing in the 3 litre formula, firstly in his usual green (&yellow) colour and then the Gunston brownish colour with the added bits. He has/had this car in his bar at home, thankfully in the original green paintwork.

I hope that makes sense but without all the facts there is a little bit of guesswork.

On a more important note - how is Doug's health at the moment? The earlier posts do not sound very encouraging.

[Allen Brown]

A huge amount of work was done on this subject in Classic Car Africa Vol 1 No 1 which settled on ten cars and explained them pretty well. I have since learnt from Hume that he only had one car and that it was the ex-Love car; so there were only nine.

Allen

[Mattthecat]

Thank you. It is starting to make sense......I think

[Hieronymus]

I can scan you the article from CCA if you think it will be worthwhile. Send me an Email or PM if you wish.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by David Holland

On a more important note - how is Doug's health at the moment? The earlier posts do not sound very encouraging.

No word on Doug's current health status, but the last news I got didn't sound too good. I do not wish to go into too much detail.

Jackie Pretorius, though, is up and going again and he attended the annual Alex Blignaut charity dinner earlier in the year. Not sure if Jackie still looks after Doug...

[Wakeley]

OK, I've woken up again, and thanks for everyone who has posted so far. I have some information which I have mailed to some of you - and will now spend a little while uploading including some photos of the cars I have found...

Also, any information on Doug?

[Mike Lawrence]

Allen Brown says I did an appalling job on Doug Serrurier's LDS cars in my book 'Grand Prix Cars, 1945-65' and that DCN repeated my mistakes in another book.

I correponded with Doug Serrurier and sent him a draft of my entry for his approval. My piece on LDS was based on that correspondence and I changed the text according to Doug's suggestions. Don't tell me I did an 'appalling' job, when I went back to the original source and if DCN repeated my 'mistakes' it is because he knows that I go to original sources.

DCN and I are not kissing cousins, we are rivals, but we rub along pretty well. We each know we can pick up the phone and pick the other's brains. We each get the odd detail wrong, but when we do we try to correct it. We are historians and therefore merely recorders - it is the history which is important.

It is possible that Mr Brown knows more about LDS cars than Doug Nye and me, but only if he knows more than Doug Serrurier himself.

[Allen Brown]

Dear Mike

I shouldn't have used the word 'appalling'. Your work never warrants such a description and I rate your March book, for example, very highly indeed. My apologies for using such a description.

Your comment about primary sources is well made and I agree with it wholeheartedly but it can be dangerous to rely too heavily on any one person's memory. Doug S's memory is not perfect and he has got a lot of things mixed up. The story of '6', the car Serrurier built for himself in 1962, has got mixed up with '1' (your '2') and the text then confuses '6' with '7', the 1964 car but I would accept that the differences between '6' and '7' have never been well described. Then '8' appears as a duplicate of '5' and '9' appears as a duplicate of '3'. Bosman and Viljoen only had one car each and '8' and '9' were actually the two BT10-based cars that appeared in 1965 which you have as extra BT16-based cars on the end.

I don't know more about LDSs than Doug Serrurier but I have researched them very carefully and so have several other people, pricipally in South Africa. That research has relied on the recollections of many people plus photographs, race results, reports and newpaper articles from the time. I would venture that that gives a more complete view of the subject than any knowledge transfer from a single person.

Kind regards

Allen

[Wakeley]

Thanks Allen, I was in the middle of a [hopefully] considered, owned-based, response, and got timed out. Here's what I was writing as a reply, mainly in line with your comments I hope.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Firstly, let's just say that owners of these cars owe a lot to journalists, writers and archivists. Without the research, we'd have an even harder time trying to sort things out in terms of unravelling previous stories etc.. with the cars. But sometimes, as I have found when researching my cars, some people just repeat a story enought that eventually it becomes 'fact' when it isn't.

Mike, Doug might have corresponded with you, but it is worth remembering that he has little or no interest in the history or whatever of cars that he built aeons ago, and that he saw (as do many other garagistes) as tools of the trade to be discarded once they had served their useful purpose. If they had thought that they would some day be worth money, or people would be remotely interested in their history, Doug, for one, would probably have given them numbers. He didn't and that is one reason why we are on this board - not just for LDS, but for other cars as well. I am sure Doug didn't deliberately mislead you, and you didn't misinterpret what he wrote, but I have gone thorugh virtually al the documentation and it does not always add up.

In some instances, this is not anyone's fault except for honest typographical mislabelling of photographs in books, and the incorrect descriptions in local press reports of the time, that then get repeated as fact becuase there doesn;t seem to be any reason to go back and check. Sometimes, going back to the 'source' e.g. Doug might not help at all, and does tend to confuse. It is an accepted comment in many circles that the various reports of LDSs have not clarified the situation, but have only served to confuse. Sometimes this is a genuine mistake, and at other times because someone wishes to (ahem) bend the facts to suit their circumstances.

I have assembled many factual errors in the various books, cars being labelled as being Alfa engined when that clearly aren't, chassis numbers that change between races, or are not even described correctly, etc.. In Sun on the Grid for instance, there is a full page photo of the VII South African GP held on 27.12.60 (page 51) and the accompanying text on page 50 states that car #25 is E Pieterse in a Heron-Alfa. The photo clearly shows #25 as being a Lotus 15, which is borne out by the grid reports in other books as a Lotus 15 (15-604). Problem is, who checked what, and then happens when someone decides to write a book referencing one book and not the other without checking the facts, and then cross referencing them. Of course, LDSs were never going to be of great interest but, if we can't a story right about 9, 10 or 11 low value local cars produced over a six or seven year period, I don't give too much hope for other forms of research!

Anyway, back to your book GP Cars 1945-65 which I enjoyed immensely. I would venture to suggest that much of what is in there is correct, except it is either out of chronological order, or mixes one car incident with another. This, coupled with the other issues in some of the other books (not by you) has compounded the problem. I have ignored the reference to a front-engined FWA car as it is not a GP car, and was not referenced anywhere else, interesting though it is. He was racing a Cooper (T45) when our story really starts. Here is part ONE of my research, which hasn't taken that long, and if I am honest is what I would expect someone to do, if they were interested in LDS history, but completely understand if they didn't cross-reference books if they are writing a 264 page book...

Part ONE - The LDS Beginning 1960 to 1961
-------------------------------------------------------

The first LDS outing is II Coupe Gouvernador Generale on 23.7.61, driven by Serrurier, and he retired. Interestingly, he did not appear in the previous race III Border 100 on 10.7.61 and the race before this was the last appearance for the T45 (I Rand Trophy 3.6.61) where he retired with suspension trouble. It is almost certain, when talking to people in SA, that the first LDS was actually his Cooper with modications - especially as there is reference to different suspension on the LDS compared to a Cooper, and he had retired his T45 because of suspension damage. So, this is LDS '1', not '2' as you mention, as I think your numbering might confuse.

Yes, he gives / sells LDS '1' to Tingle who does not compete in anything that year until the LDS appears with him at the Rand GP 9.12.61. I do not believe the numbering in the Sheldon books, so again it is best to use logic and engine types to then work out what happened next.

Viljoen is quoted as having LDS '3' (Sheldon and Lawrence) which had a Climax FPF engine. So, where is '2'? Certainly not as determined by the Sheldon book as being an FPF version of the same car Serrurier had driven up until the Rand Spring Trophy on 4.11.61 which is when the FPF and '2' moniker arrives. This, in my opinion, is completely wrong.

Back to Viljoen. Interestingly enough though, Viljoen had a T45 (F2 20 58 Climax) which Nye records as M Neil (New Zealand) with FPF '1028'. This car was initially recorded against George Mennie who first races it in the Rand Autumn Trophy 18.3.61. He then races it twice more before it appears with Viljoen as driver (and owner but this could be wrong) at the Border 100 on 10.7.61. He then races in that car against Serrurier in the Rhodesian GP on 30.7.61 and is beaten into 3rd place by Serrurier in the LDS, second time out for the car. What if Viljoen (and Mennie) see the LDS, which is by all accounts a souped up Cooper with 'better' suspension and they say 'build us an LDS like yours' (seeing as he had a similar car although with Alfa power). Actually, this could be the Alan Brown car(?) F2-17-58 as many people say Serrurier had an Alan Brown T45, and then crashed it.

Viljoen races LDS '3' with an FPF (what's to bet it is '1028'?) at the IV Rand GP on 9.12.61. This race is key to LDS history as it is the first time that 3 LDSs should have appeared at the same race. John Love supposedly in the Porsche engined car (which was probably copied in terms of body design as the Jennings-Porsche - they look very similar), Tingle in the original car with an Alfa engine, and Viljoen in the Climax car. But the Love car #11 dna'd as it was not ready. Serrurier, having sold 3 cars, now takes over the All-Purpose Appliances Corp Cooper T51 (FII/16/60) with a Maserati 150S engine (sold as per Nye's book sans engine or geabox to South Africa). This is, of course, the John Love car that he appeared in for the Rand Spring Trophy 4.11.61 the race before, which is also the de Beaufort car that seems to first appear at the Cape GP 17.12.60 with Godin de Beaufort (Ecurie Maarsbergen) and then in the SA GP on 27.12.60 - Oh No! This is where the Sheldon book screws up as both John Love AND de Beaufort are credited with starting in the same car (but with de Beaufort with an FPF and Love with the 150S engine)... help. So, we now have Serrurier with the ex de Beaufort / Love Cooper T51 Maserati, Viljoen

Interestingly, who says they have F2-20-58 now? What if this became LDS '3' in terms of pieces, with a different suspension set-up, hmmmm. It is instructive that, given most cars seemed to swap owners almost incestuously, why F2-20-58 doesn't reappear. I submit, this car became LDS '3' in some form. (Cue annoyed ex-owners sending rude eMails...)

Love appears in the LDS Porsche at the Natal GP 17.12.61 and promptly bins it, and 'nptr'ing' it. By now, the Sheldon book calls LDS Porsche '4', Tingle '2' and Viljoen (now owned or run by Mennie) as '3'.

The final race of the season was the SA GP on 26.12.61 and here there are FOUR LDSs down to race, Love, Tingle, Viljoen and Serrurier who registered two cars, including an LDS Alfa and his Cooper T51. The Serrurier LDS Alfa never arrived so we'll never know (at the end of 1961 at least) whether this was pre Tingle, or post Viljoen. In any event, Serrurier races the Cooper, comes 8th andtherefore beats his own cars (Tingle 9th) and Viljoen blew the FPF up. Love doesn't arrive as the car is still not repaired, probably thorugh a lack of money???

So, we're now up to 3 LDSs, and a possible fourth, as yet unproven. Next issue will focus on 1962 to 1964 which is where it starts to get a bit confusing...

All comments welcome.

[Allen Brown]

Nice work Julian. I'm already looking forward to the next installment.

It is interesting that the car most people call LDS '2' doesn't appear as early in the story as one would expect. I guess it deserves to be called '4' (with Viljoen's becoming '2' and Love's '3') but I decided some time ago that such revisionism would do nobody any favours.

The 'Thompson system', John Thompson's 1970s numbering system is too well established (and too right!) to be worth tinkering with.

Allen

[Mike Lawrence]

Allen, apology accepted.

The fact is that you may, indeed, know more about LDS cars than Doug Serrurier. Even original makers get things wrong, as I have since discovered.

When I wrote the book I was using postage stamps. I thought it a result to get Doug's address nearly 20 years ago. There was no wide-spread use of the Internet back then, you and I could not be conducting this conversation in the 1980s. One other thing, Nelson Mandela was still in prison.

I bumped into DCN at Goodwood a few years back, had a ride with him in the 1956 ex-Portago Ferrari 250GT 'Tour de France'. I had just come back from the newly liberated former East Germany where I had met Paul Thiel, former works driver for EMW. I mentioned that Paul had tested an Auto Union with a V8 engine and Goodman Nye raised his eyebrows. I live so close to Goodwood that I went away and was back 15 minutes later with manuscripts written by Paul Thiel in German.

We studied them and came to the conclusion that Thiel had made a mistake. I was eventually able to establish that Thiel had been mistaken. Had I written about the Auto Union V8, I would have been writing using handwritten notes by someone who had driven an Auto Union and counted the cyclinders wrong.

Had I gone ahead, I would have written bad history, but it would have been Good bad history because I had gone to an original source and had come away with his notes. It is possible to cock-up even after you have been through all reasonable processes.

If you discover that I have neglected to do the best I can under prevailing circumstances, the Internet has changed research, you can say I have a turnip for a head and I would not be able to deny the charge

[Wakeley]

So we are all friends again. Phew.

The issue of 'forensic' research is, when is enough, enough? We are reasonably fortunate at the moment that many of the people are still around for the pre-66 and 'return to power' eras. I remember bumping into Ron Tauranac about 2 years ago. He used the same village garage to service his Honda as I still do (W Carey, West Byfleet) and I didn't recognise him, but he was clutching a little parcel with the name 'Tauranac' on it. He left the garage and I asked the mechanic, 'was that Ron Tauranac' to which he looked at me slightly oddly and replied, yes it was.

I dashed after him like a demented school kid and blurted out about the LDS, and how some of them had been copied from Brabhams... He was completely jet-lagged having just returned from Australia having had to sign an affadavit (I think) stating whether a Brabham F1 car someone had bought was in fact what the seller had said it was (here we go again...)

He said to me, and this was before the story appeared in the 'For the Love of it' John Love book, that when he and Brabham found out about the Serrurier Brabham copies they, or certainly Jack Brabham, was furious and told Serrurier 'never again'. This story had been repeated to me by Sam Tingle at the Festival of Speed, when it was the Brabham retrospective. So, the reporting in Motor Sport, and even repeated here in these posts, that Brabham was pleased with the result of Doug's work is false - and really that is why I wanted to get to the bottom of these stories, to correct these, albeit small, wrongs.

In fact, Ron told me that after they discovered what Doug had done, they stopped sending Brabham parts to him, as Ron said that he had always been puzzled as to why Serrurier was asking for Brabham uprights etc.. Now, of course, this might be a story too. All I know is that when I was competing at the 2001 Revival, I got Brabham's signature and said, rather stupidly, that I had Doug's LDS Climax, he replied 'bad luck'.

Anyway, back to the plot.

Allen, I agree with the use of the Thompson numbering. The only issue being that the date the car first appears in his book isn't the first date the car really appeared as he only covers the 'major' races in SA.

Oh, and of course all this is partly your fault Mike Lawrence, if you hadn't kept giving me free tickets for Thruxton, Silverstone etc.. on Radio Victory Track Torque in 1978-80, I'd not have got the racing bug quite as badly as I did. I still recall leaving the studio with Peter Warr, and him offering me £30 a week as a trainee mechanic. As a management trainee with Abbey National at the time on £3,000 a year, I said no - what an idiot. At last I got to keep the Wolf stickers.

[Allen Brown]

Mike, I can't remember the last time I saw an apology accepted so graciously!

I like the concept of good bad history. I may well quote you on that one day in my own defence.

You are right about the way the Internet has completely changed the way research can be conducted. All my research on 3-litre F1, conducted from 1978 until the mid-1990s, was done using the phone and letters; plus FAXs for those terribly advanced Americans. By the time I started my F5000 research in the late 1990s, I was earning my living as a web consultant so decided to make it a rule to use email wherever possible for that project. It worked incredibly well but even then I couldn't have predicted the difference TNF would make. This really has been a revolution. My main contacts on my Indycar research are in Canada, Germany, Portugal, Estonia (I think!), the US and the UK. Ten years ago, we wouldn't even have known each other existed!

Allen

[Hieronymus]

In an interview with CAR magazine (Feb 1993), Doug Serrurier mentioned that 13 cars were built. The first was his front engined Speedy Engineering Special, while the others were all mid-engined designs to which he gave the LDS moniker derived from his full name – Louis Douglas Serrurier.

LDS No. 1 was based on an old ‘bent-frame’ Cooper that Doug imported in 1959 and he claims that he built three cars of that type. These three were followed up with six “low-line” versions, so in total the first nine LDS cars were all Cooper-style cars.

Of the remaining three (out of the 12 LDS-cars), one was based on the Brabham BT11 and the other two on Formula 2 Brabham BT16.

[Wakeley]

The purpose of this board as far as I am aware is to dig underneath the interviews, correlate them and debate where they differ, if they do - especially in the light of the comptemorary photos. I should have made my intentions clear, sorry if I did not. Even if there are 12 or 13 cars, that is not the point. What we (I) am trying to establish is:

1. When did various chassis change over?
2. Chassis '2' as it is referred to, turned up much later than '3' or even '4' (the Posrche car), why?
2. What engines were in various cars and when, as several books mix the Alfa and FPF cars up?
3. What happened to the Love LDS Porsche once Dowie Gous handed it back to Serrurier?
4. Were there really 2 other Brabham cars apart from the Tingle FPF/Repco car, or just one?

So you can keep repeating the 'interviews' until the cows come home, but it does not move the debate forward.

Do you know what you did with a car you purchased 30 years ago, and in which order you did it?We know what Doug said in an 'interview' but frankly it is not the case that there were 13 LDS cars (yes, I know you said '12 LDS cars but I am re-stating the point here). Firstly, he didn't import anything as 'new' - very few South Africans did. They purchased cars that had come across from the UK as part of a previous season so the team owners could get some cash (or traveller's cheques). If you have talked to people in South Africa about Doug, and about the history, there is a general feeling that Doug could be a little mischievous at times, and he really didn't want to talk about the past, so he'd tell most of the truth, but the order was less important - almost an attitude of "So, you want to know, what I did? You find out for yourself." If he did that, he wasn't the first to do it, and he most certainly won't be the last...

Hieronymous is right to mention the Speedy Engineering Special, but this muddies the waters in terms of the LDS constructor. We are trying to determine the cars that carried the LDS tag - and this one apparently - you use the term 'the first' referring to the SES, and then call another car No. 1. It is precisely this which causes the confusion. As a constructor, he built one car very early on, but this was not an LDS and was not termed as such. So can we drop it please?

Of the other 12 cars, the first 3 were referenced from his T45 and / or the T51. A photo in CCA from the Royal Show races supposedly of 1961 clearly shows Serrurier in LDS '1' parked right next to a Cooper T45. They look almost identical, with the only difference being that the LDS appsears slimmer, making the nose appear longer (it probably was), and the rear engine cowling was different and looked more T51 'ish with a bump or fin echo'ing the bulkhead area behind the driver, which was rounded on a T45. Here is where the problems start, and where I personally think TNF could help. This photo, captioned in CCA of the T45 of van der Vyver (numbered 2), and the 'LDS' of Serrurier (numbered 4) can't be of van der Vyver in 1961 as by then he had moved to a Lotus 18. BY then, Bruce Johnstone had van der Vyver's Cooper Alfa (F2-22-57), and he raced with number 2 on a couple of occasions. So, someone either captioned the picture up wrongly in terms of van der Vyver, or it was van der Vyver, in which case it is a 1960 photo, and then both he and Serrurier were racing with these numbers, but Serrurier was in another T45, not labelled an LDS!

He raced a T51, which may have been the de Beaufort / Love car, but there are times when both de Beaufort and Serrurier are noted as having T51s in the same race. After campaigning the LDS Alfa, so he had plenty of references for making copies. But by then, he had built at least 2 cars, and probably the LDS Porsche which, if you look at the photos, can in no way be described as 'low line'.

So, anyone with photos from 1961 onwards of South African racing, and especially of chassis '4' and '5' racing together?

[Hieronymus]

Wakeley

Yes, I very much catch the drift of this thread and the various views on how many cars Doug built. Mike Lawrence's comments, that of Jannie van ASwegen and all the others that try to get to the crutch of the matter.

I just wished to add to the confusion by mentioning the article in CAR and what was mentioned there. I think very few chaps know about this very nice article, titled "The Japanese" that will surely interest all LDS/Serrurier enthusiasts.

I'll take it on me to check all my journal reports of the period you mentioned. Perhaps I'll discover something worthwhile that can be of use to the interesting parties. For photo's I shall also have to rely on the journal reports, since I do not have period photos of my own.

[Allen Brown]

Hi Hieronymus

I wasn't aware of that interview and would be most interested to read it. Any chance of a scan?

Doug has said on several occasions, to Jannie as well IIRC, that the two 1965 "Formula 2" LDS cars were based on the BT16. I think it's pretty clear they were based on a BT10 that happened to be wintering in the Cape which Doug had access to long enough to measure it but that story wouldn't sound as good to an interviewer.

Allen

[Wakeley]

Dear Hieronymus,

Thank you for that, I didn't know of that article, it would be good to see (if there are photos(!)). Actually, I was just reading Mr Nye's excellent Cooper tome, and looked at a photo of McLaren in a T60, which is in the colour plate section, and just below a T53 'low line'. Your posting, and these two photos have helped me focus on the influences of the LDS designs, even if it was 'skin deep'. The other influence is the Alfa Special of de Klerk, if you look at the Sun on the Grid pictures of the Alfa Special, and then look at especially the Bosman LDS '5' car and elements of LDS '7', you can see influences there. The long pencil nose of the Alfa Special is replicated in several of the LDSs, excluding '4' (Love Porsche) and '6' (very much "Low-Line Cooper"). In '7', the way the tank is secured by metal straps is similar to the Alfa Special, and this is also seen in a photo of '3' when Pretorius took the car over from Viljoen and pre-accident when the nose and chassis were damaged when the throttle stuck open on Pretorius' car.

The Alfa Special is amazing, like the first LDS it competed competitively against much more modern machinery right through from '61 to the end of the pre-66 F1 class. As de Klerk and Serrurier were friends, it is likely that Serrurier helped build the Alfa Special body, perhaps not all of it, but I personally think it helped influence the development of the LDS body design, whereas the chassis was local ingenuity replacing the transverse rear leaf spring of the Coopers at the time, but otherwise basically retaining a Cooper chassis tube layout.

[Wakeley]

Just to add to Allen's point about the BT10, the story I heard (which did not come from Doug) was that the BT10 had been trailered to someone's house, and then was left whilst they all went off to eat. Doug found the car, took off the bodywork and proceeded to measure everything on it. He then went off and made a copy. It's at this point that he started to order parts from Ron Tauranac. All the reports at the time that Tingle had missed ordering the 'last' BT10 and had made a locally sanctioned copy was an example of early 'spin'.

There are stories of Doug welding various chassis up on the balcony of his apartment and then lowering them on a rope to the ground. If this is true, it might be because the concrete floor of the apartment(?) would be flat, whereas the ground outside would not. But yet another urban myth probably, to be discounted or proven.

[Hieronymus]

Allen, Wakeley

I shall scan the article and let you have it. Give me a day or so. Please let me know your email addresses.

[Mike Lawrence]

Back to original sources. You mak know that I wrote the Tauranac biography and I raised LDS with Ron. He told me he was flattered that Doug Serrurier was copying his cars and had no trouble at all in supplying him with parts.

I have that from Ron Tauranac himself, so it has to be true. Actually, it is true to his memory thirty years on and you may see a bijou problemette, a tiny cloud on the horizon.

[Mike Lawrence]

When people have it in for you, you cannot win. Wakeley blames me for his sad obbessions actually Rob Widdows was also involved. It seems that our crime was to offer free tickets to race meetings on the wireless and he was the geek first on the phone. Is that really my fault?

[newbrewer2003]

Does anyone know Doug Serrurier's family tree?

Parents or relatives? Where they were from?

[Hieronymus]

DraftDancer

I sent you an email.

[DraftDancer]

Hieronymus, thanks! I ment to edit my posting and deleted it by mistake....... I was asking for information and photos for Dave Charlton car, Luki Botha car, and Sam Tingle LDS-Climax cars which ran the 1967 Kyalami F1 race. Any photos would be of great help. I am building a proper 1967 Kyalami car set for the gpl simulation. I have had no luck finding any photos of a LDS car.

Hieronymus, thank you very much. I sent you my mailing address.

Anyone who has photos, please help me in my research. Thanks........ Please pm DraftDancer

[Hieronymus]

Here is Sam Tingle's LDS from 1967. Doug Brown sent me the photo and I am sure he'll add some more detail.

[DraftDancer]

Thank you Marius, that is a nice looking car! I would love to see a photo of the interior if he has any. This is a great start on being able to get the car into gpl. You just made my day!

Please pass a thank you from me on to Doug Brown. I will need to at some point, post a photo of how the car looks in gpl when done.

DraftDancer

Edited by DraftDancer, 21 September 2009 - 22:38.

[Hieronymus]

A book THE HISTORY OF LDS IN FORMULA ONE RACING is now on sale. Written by Brian Tyler and assisted by Robert Young.