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#1 dmj

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 23:04

Now, we all know that in selling a car one can make a few occasional overstatements, especially if they could gain some historical value, but how http://www.autocollections.com/ describes this Maserati certainly is worth a comment or two:
1948 MASERATI MONOPOSTO 6C RACE CAR ID# 6047 GERMAN RACE CAR DRIVEN EGON BRUETSCH HAD THIS GRAND PRIX RACER, KNOWN AS “THE BATTLESHIP,” BUILT ON AN ALFA ROMEO 6C CHASSIS, WITH A MASERATI STRAIGHT-6 CYLINDER ENGINE. HE STARTED RACING THE CAR IN GERMANY IN 1948, WHERE HE WON CONSTANTLY IN THE OPEN CLASS. WITH MOUNTAIN RACE SPECIALIST HANS STUCK BEHIND THE WHEEL, THE MONOPOSTO’S BIG YEAR. STUCK WON THE GERMAN GRAND PRIX AND PLACED WELL THROUGHOUT EUROPE. AT YEAR’S END, HE WAS UNOFFICIALLY DECLARED THE GRAND PRIX CHAMPION. THIS BOLSTERED STUCK’S ALREADY IMPECCABLE CREDENTIALS. IN HIS CAREER OF DRIVING MANY RACING MARQUES, STUCK WON MORE GRAND PRIX RACES THAN ANY OTHER GERMAN DRIVER. MORE RECENTLY, THIS MONOPOSTO HAS HAD AN IMPRESSIVE RECORD AT VINTAGE RACES, LAST WINNING IN 1987 AT THE OLDTIMER GRAND PRIX AT NUERBURGRING.
Even I can find a few slight factual inaccuracies in statements above so I'd like to hear your comments. Do we have "B******t ad of the Year" candidate here...

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#2 uechtel

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 00:48

Before I deal with the text let me first say, that I am very glad to see the car is still "alive" (if it is the real thing). Thank you very much for the link!

Here you can read a little bit more (and yes, I´m overdue with the update...)

And now on your request a few more remarks to the text:
[QUOTE]1948 MASERATI MONOPOSTO 6C RACE CAR ID# 6047 GERMAN RACE CAR DRIVEN EGON BRUETSCH HAD THIS GRAND PRIX RACER, KNOWN AS “THE BATTLESHIP,” BUILT ON AN ALFA ROMEO 6C CHASSIS, WITH A MASERATI STRAIGHT-6 CYLINDER ENGINE. [/quote]

In those times the car was most commonly known as the "Westenrieder-Maserati", named after the man responsible for the "design". Contemporary reports tell the chassis had been a former military vehicle ("Kübelwagen" in German) and the supercharged 3.7 litre engine was all what had remained from the Maserati that had been crashed by Paul Pietsch at Brno in 1937. Of course the term "Grand Prix Racer" is absolutely wrong, as the car was never raced in any Grand Prix neither complying to any Grand Prix Formula of the time of its existence.

[quote]HE STARTED RACING THE CAR IN GERMANY IN 1948, WHERE HE WON CONSTANTLY IN THE OPEN CLASS.[/quote]

...which is no wonder, as most of 1948 and all during 1949 he was the ONLY contender in this class :p

[quote] WITH MOUNTAIN RACE SPECIALIST HANS STUCK BEHIND THE WHEEL, THE MONOPOSTO’S BIG YEAR. STUCK WON THE GERMAN GRAND PRIX AND PLACED WELL THROUGHOUT EUROPE. [/quote]

To turn a fly into an elephant as we say here. Yes, Stuck did indeed race the car ONCE in 1949 at the "Großer Bergpreis Freiburg-Schauinsland" (what difference just four letters can make: "Bergpreis" means it was a hillclimb) and yes, he won that event. Indeed he won it twice, as he was also winner in the Formula 2 class, where he achieved a much better time with the less powerful unsupercharged AFM. I think this is a good indication for the true potential of the car.

Also I have to state, that in the 1949 edition of the event the opposition was not the strongest, four cars altogether, all of them using pre-war engines.

[quote] AT YEAR’S END, HE WAS UNOFFICIALLY DECLARED THE GRAND PRIX CHAMPION. THIS BOLSTERED STUCK’S ALREADY IMPECCABLE CREDENTIALS. [/quote]

Very strange statement as

1.) no Grand Prix car at all (see above). And German champion of the race car class (=Formula 2)was Georg Meier (Veritas) in 1948 and Toni Ulmen (Veritas) in 1949. Perhaps what the author wants to state is, that Bruetsch (not Stuck!) could have been inofficially regarded as German race car champion of the OPEN CLASS (including Formula 2) in 1948 as he was the most successful driver in the Maserati.
2.) Stuck drove only this one race, the rest of the season he continued with the AFM Formula 2 car in which he indeed had some fine races (national and international). The Westenrieder-Maserati was used by Bruetsch for himself all during 1948 and 1949 while he waited for the completion of his new Formmula 2 car (intended to get one of the Küchen engines installed). The chassis was ready in summer so to give the car a first try at the Schauinsland Bruetsch installed an old 2.3 litre s/c Bugatti engine. This left the old car unused so Brütsch borrowed it to Stuck. When the new car did not impress too much Brütsch switched back to the old one for the rest of the season, so this remained Stuck´s only start in the car.

[quote]IN HIS CAREER OF DRIVING MANY RACING MARQUES, STUCK WON MORE GRAND PRIX RACES THAN ANY OTHER GERMAN DRIVER. [/quote]

..with the exceptions of Caracciola, Rosemeyer and the two Schumachers of course...

[quote]MORE RECENTLY, THIS MONOPOSTO HAS HAD AN IMPRESSIVE RECORD AT VINTAGE RACES, LAST WINNING IN 1987 AT THE OLDTIMER GRAND PRIX AT NUERBURGRING. [/quote]

Ok, that IS a Grand Prix victory!
[/B][/QUOTE]

It seems to me they are more keen to sell Stuck´s career than to sell the car.

But nevertheless, it´s a great thing, a very typical car and an important document for the circumstances under which motorsport existed in Germany in those days. And compared to its opponents the car was indeed very impressive already in its dimensions and of course also because of its power output. Also it did have its successes with overall wins at Karlsruhe, Schotten and the Eggberg hillclimb in 1948 and at Tübingen in 1949.

#3 Barry Lake

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 01:45

The advertisement for the car still appears to be full of deliberate distortions to me.

Aren't there laws against this sort of thing?

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 06:13

uechtel's thorough post doesn't make clear that Stuck's 1949 Schauinsland win was a class win only. He made outright FTD in that event in the F2 AFM, followed, IIRC, by three Veritas sprtscars

#5 dmj

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 18:01

Thank you Uechtel for providing that link and information. Indeed it is a fascinating car (and I do hope it is the real thing), never mind the misinterpretations of its history in advertisement...
But what I am now most ashamed is that I didn't recognize name of Egon Brütsch whilst posting this thread, even if I consider myself a fan of his sometimes hillarious minicars, especially Mopetta. :o

#6 uechtel

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 22:07

Mopetta, Rollera, Eremit, Spatz, Zwerg, Bussard, Pfeil, V2-Ngo...

The names of his creations were almost as amusing as the vehicles themselves.

There is a good book by Walter Zeichner: "Kleinwagen International" about all such mobiles not only from Germany, but from all around the world. But I´m afraid there is only a German edition.

#7 Michael Müller

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 07:32

Only realized this thread after it has been pushed up now.
"...misinterpretations of its history in advertisement"?? Believe the description used in the opening thread - "B******t ad of the Year" - comes much closer...

#8 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 15:43

A small note and a question:

From your page , Brütsch's first post war car is described as an Alfa Romeo 'Monza'. The picture show instead a 8C2300 Spider. Radiator cowl and, mainly, the suspension mounting on the front irons tell the true.

You quote an "Alfa Romeo military vehicle" as donor for chassis. The "Alfa 6C" indicated in the "sale litterature" would lead me to guess the chassis was derivated form an Alfa 6C 2500 Coloniale. Can you confirm this?

If so, just have a look on the original Alfa:

Posted Image

Comparison with the car as it is today pays tribute to the coachbuilder of the second version, isn't it? :p :p

#9 uechtel

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 16:27

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
A small note and a question:

From your page , Brütsch's first post war car is described as an Alfa Romeo 'Monza'. The picture show instead a 8C2300 Spider. Radiator cowl and, mainly, the suspension mounting on the front irons tell the true.


From memory my sources (Schumann, Riedner, "Das Auto") agree, that this was the Alfa Romeo Monza formerly owned by Pietsch, who had it converted into a single seater for 1934. There are pictures of the car in Riedner´s book ("Doppelsieg") showing it during 1933 in its original two seater configuration.

So far I did not doubt this information, but if I understand you correct, then your opinion means, that he has replaced his original car with what you call a 8C2300 Spider. I do not know anything at all about this model, so perhaps you can give some more info about that model?

You quote an "Alfa Romeo military vehicle" as donor for chassis. The "Alfa 6C" indicated in the "sale litterature" would lead me to guess the chassis was derivated form an Alfa 6C 2500 Coloniale. Can you confirm this?


Again this is what the sources tell (Molter, "Das Auto"). Alas, no further specification of the model. Only former "Kübelwagen", that´s all. Of course extensively modified.

If so, just have a look on the original Alfa:

Posted Image

Comparison with the car as it is today pays tribute to the coachbuilder of the second version, isn't it? :p :p


Nice to see that one! :up:

#10 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 17:26

So, basically, a 8C 2300 Spider and a Monza are the same car, "Monza" being the nickname of the Grand Prix version of the 8C 2300.

Distinctive features of the Monza are the slotted radiator cowl (but the most specialized books on the subject, mostly Simon Moore's 'Legendary 2.3', will show you that the very first cars had not yet the 'classic' cowl) and a shortened front end irons, where the front end of the leaf springs are attached to the very end of the irons, now of a straighter shape. Compare the picture below with the one on your page, and you'll notice the difference between a 'typical ' Spider and a 'typical' Monza.
.
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While the second photo doesn't evidentiate it enough, you can recognize the difference in the irons' end mountings and the radiator cowl similar to the one on the Brütsch's pic

Now on the chassis of the Westenrieder-Maserati: I assume that the 'Kübelwagen' designation is kind of a short cut for the fact that the Alfa chassis was indeed a military one. Note that, as well as for the 8C 2300 having been both a road- and a Grand Prix car, the chassis of a Road-, Racing- or Coloniale 6C 2500 were not very much different? There were differences, but it remained basically the same thing. And I confirm the Alfa 6C 2500 identity as plausible since on the pics in the BATTLESHIP thread, the upper arm of the front suspension is typical Alfa.

Note also that this is not the only Alfa-Maserati hybrid of that period, since Italian enthusiast are quite used to see the Alfa-Maserati-Preti around. In this case, however, the story is the other way round, with an Alfa engine and a Maserati chassis. But here, I'm on Stuart's ground ;), who commented on that car here , but in Italian

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#11 dretceterini

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 18:05

The AMP special has NO relationship to Maserati. According to the man who built the car, it does NOT have a Maserati chassis!!

The car was built in Rome by Tino Martinoli, who came to the US in the early 50s with the Ferrari Indy car team.

The proper title for the car should be Alfa-Martinoli-Prete (Prete financed the construction)

Tino then moved to Los Angeles and worked for a number of sportscar dealerships, and was the inventor of exhaust recircularisation (his design was to increase power, rather than as a method of controlling emissions)

Later he had a shop called Marcor which did race prep on Ferrari Daytonas and other GT cars in Hollywood. Tino passed away about 10 years ago.

Tino's son, Mario, is a wholesale food purveyor, and does food segments
on Los Angeles TV and radio stations.

Of note; Tino was indirectly responsible for Ferrari's first win ever. The car spun a bearing in practice. A proper bearing was found in Tino's shop, and it was replaced there.

#12 David McKinney

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 18:33

I was going to point out that Rocco's 4CL (1566), the supposed basis for the AMP, was sold to France in the 1940s, and can regularly be seen in historic races on both sides of the Atlantic to this day

#13 uechtel

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 19:49

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
So, basically, a 8C 2300 Spider and a Monza are the same car, "Monza" being the nickname of the Grand Prix version of the 8C 2300.

Distinctive features of the Monza are the slotted radiator cowl (but the most specialized books on the subject, mostly Simon Moore's 'Legendary 2.3', will show you that the very first cars had not yet the 'classic' cowl) and a shortened front end irons, where the front end of the leaf springs are attached to the very end of the irons, now of a straighter shape. Compare the picture below with the one on your page, and you'll notice the difference between a 'typical ' Spider and a 'typical' Monza.


Thank you for the brief Alfa lession. Very interesting!

But to me the question is still, whether this was also modified during the conversion of 1933/34? Perhaps they used some parts of a spider for this change? According to Pietsch´s biography this is a picture of the car in its original 1933 spec.

Posted Image

Note also that this is not the only Alfa-Maserati hybrid of that period, since Italian enthusiast are quite used to see the Alfa-Maserati-Preti around. In this case, however, the story is the other way round, with an Alfa engine and a Maserati chassis. But here, I'm on Stuart's ground ;), who commented on that car here , but in Italian

Posted Image


A very beautiful thing! :up:

Alas, I don´t speak some Italian. :(

#14 dretceterini

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 20:35

The comments on the Italian language link Patrick posted are basically what I said in my previous post in this thread regarding the AMP "special" . The car has no Maserati in it at all, acording to the person who built it in 1948.

#15 Jonas

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 21:29

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
Distinctive features of the Monza are the slotted radiator cowl (but the most specialized books on the subject, mostly Simon Moore's 'Legendary 2.3', will show you that the very first cars had not yet the 'classic' cowl) and a shortened front end irons, where the front end of the leaf springs are attached to the very end of the irons, now of a straighter shape. Compare the picture below with the one on your page, and you'll notice the difference between a 'typical ' Spider and a 'typical' Monza.


Patrick, I fully agree with the differences you mentioned between the "standard" 2.3's and the Monzas, both as to the front cowl and the the front end irons. But the red Monza in the picture you posted does NOT have the typical shorter Monza front end leaf springs. At least to me it looks like the longer "standard" model..

Posted Image

The proper Monza leaf springs are instead seen in the black and white photo showing Pietch's car back in the 30's.

Posted Image

But of course the fact remains that the photo showing the rebuilt 2.3 shows a car with "standard" specification leaf springs.. It seems very unlikely that someone would weld on an extension on a Monza chassis. Especially for racing purposes..

I was a bit curious about the body, though. It looks to me like being of a narrow type with, like on the Monzas (but NOT on the Spiders) the chassis being wider than the body.. And what looks like the chrome line found on some of the Spiders could be a painted line in the same style as Pietch's car..

#16 uechtel

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Posted 10 February 2004 - 22:12

This thread is becoming more and more interesting again. Alas I am by no means competent about Alfa Romeos, so all I can contribute are a few more photos

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Another picture of the converted car at the Eggberg in 1947...

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...and from Hockenheim the same year.

And here a few more of the original car in 1933

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Carthago


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Riesengebrige


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and Stelvio again.

Alas I have nothing of 1934.

#17 Jonas

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 00:14

Hm, I haven't quite understood if it's supposed to be certain that the Pietch car and the converted car is the same. To me it seems that there are too many alterations that would be hard to motivate why they would have been done at all:

- Body and front cowl. None of the body panels are from a Monza. The engine hood and front cowl looks like they could come from a Spider 2.3, albeit the entire body seems a bit too narrow. Back seems completely home made.

- Oil tank. 1st and 2nd series 2.3/2.6 AR had the oil tank mounted on the left side of the chassis (as Pietch's car). (Only the very first cars had the oil tank mounted in front of the radiator, between the chassis beams, but that is irrelvant in this case.) The converted car does not have a visible oil tank (or at least oil filler) on the left. It could of course have been replaced by a non-original oil tank placed somewhere else due to the fact that they wanted to place the exhaust pipe underneath the car. But to make things clear; the 3rd series 2.3/2.6 had the oil tank mounted on the chassi's right side.

- Front end of the chassis. As I mentioned in my previous post it looks to me as the converted car is running with standard length front leaf springs fitted in the way they are normally fitted on standard 2.3's. The Monza chassis is simply cut off in the front and an aluminium (I think, not entirely sure about the material..) piece is inserted. The horisontal rod that supports the crank handle and runs between the two chassis beams is then also placed somewhat lower than standard. This alteration from Monza to Standard specification would mean welding on extensions on the chassis. Besides, doing this so that it looks (as far as I can tell) perfectly original Standard specification. To what good? Softer springing? Not very likely..

- The cover between the chassis beams in front of the radiator on the converted car looks to me like standard 2.3 and is NOT the same as used on the Monzas. Besides, the pictures showing Pietch's car completely lacks this cover. Why would anyone bother to fit such a cover on a converted car?

Well, these are my thoughts on this matter. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but my opinon is that the Pietch car and the converted car is NOT the same! Adding to this, based mostly on the chassi's front leaf spring mounting, I don't think Brütsch's converted car was, or ever had been, a genuine Monza.

Can anyone please present to us the chassis number of Pietch's car? I don't have Simon Moore's book at hand at the moment. Unfortunately, I have a vague recollection that the Pietch car (as well as the converted car) is unidentified in the book, but here I'm not at all sure. Really hope I'm wrong about that, actually :)

#18 Michael Müller

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 06:54

We are missing the link, which is the 1934 Pietsch car. Pietsch's Monza for thr 1934 season was converted into a single seater, and also the engine was enlarged to 2.6 liter. In this process surely the bodywork received extensive alterations. The Brütsch car for me looks like a monoposto too, and I dont believe that there had been so much 8C2300/2600 single seaters around. We would need some photos of the Pietsch car from 1934 in order to continue the discussion.
I also remember that Pietsch sold his Monza in 1935 to the Auto Union, when he became works driver, officially as "technical examination project", but de facto it was a kind of goodwill from AU towards Pietsch. So, did the Monza survive the AU "examinations"?

#19 uechtel

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 07:54

Originally posted by Jonas
- The cover between the chassis beams in front of the radiator on the converted car looks to me like standard 2.3 and is NOT the same as used on the Monzas. Besides, the pictures showing Pietch's car completely lacks this cover. Why would anyone bother to fit such a cover on a converted car?


I´very impressed what alterations you were able to identify. Only on this one you are wrong. There is another picture in the Riedner book (or poor quality as it is copied froma newspaper so I did not post it here), showing the original car after a crash in the trees. Clearly on this picture the cover is there (evidence will follow tonight).

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#20 Racers Edge

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 10:58

THERE HAS BEEN AL0T 0F TALK AB0UT THE CHASSIS 0F THE "BATTLESHIP-MASERATI" aka: Westenrieder-Maserati , BUT WHAT AB0UT THE C0RRECT ENGINE F0R THIS RACER?

C0RRECT ENGINE SH0ULD BE?

1934 Maserati 6C 34 Inline-6 Supercharged
227 CU IN.
Cylinders 6
Engine Configuration Inline
Aspiration/Induction Supercharged
Displacement 227 CU IN. | 3720.5 cc. | 3.7 L.
Valves NA
Valvetrain NA
Horsepower 198.0 Kw / 269 BHP @ 5300 RPM
------------------------------------------------------------Posted Image

THIS CURRENT ENGINE IS N0T C0RRECT, AS IT'S FR0M A N0RMAL MASERATI 3500 GT R0AD CAR, I W0NDER H0W IT EVER G0T A ENTRY T0 RACE AT THE 'RING' /0LDTIMER EVENT?

Posted Image

#21 Jonas

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 11:05

Ha! I actually had a photo tagged "Paul Pietch at Vallentuna -34" in my archive that I had completely forgotten about! It was apparently taken at a winter time race at lake Vallentuna in Sweden. And if the caption is correct it was taken in 1934. But could this be correct? The photo shows a Monza in its original shape, or at least I can't find any changes. The cars is not a single seater yet..

And Uechtel, the photo shows a cover on the chassis in front of the radiator, but one to MONZA specifications, i.e. a somewhat smaller one that rests on top of the chassis instead of folding down between the chassis beams..

So, assuming that this photo was taken in early 1934, the changes that are claimed to have been carried out on Pietch's Monza must have taken place before the main season of 1934 but after the ice racing season..

The car is, as can be seen, still white, but without the darker stripes on the sides.

Posted Image
Paul Pietch, Vallentuna -34

As an aside: Did Pietch buy his Monza directly from the factory or from another driver? The darker stripes on the sides of course make me think of the stripes the factory Monzas had at Monaco in 1933. And also the two private cars of Caracciola and Chiron at that same event. Actually, Caracciola's car must have been very similar to Pietch's car with its blue lines painted on the white car..

Argh! I would very much like to have access to Simon Moore's book right now!

#22 uechtel

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 11:38

Originally posted by Racers Edge
[B]
1934 Maserati 6C 34 Inline-6 Supercharged
227 CU IN.

How much is this in cm²?

Should be one of the 3700 cc engines?

#23 uechtel

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 11:45

Originally posted by Jonas
[B]
And Uechtel, the photo shows a cover on the chassis in front of the radiator, but one to MONZA specifications, i.e. a somewhat smaller one that rests on top of the chassis instead of folding down between the chassis beams..

ok, you are the expert. I woukd have not noticed the difference.

Very strange indeed. So we urgently need a picture of the car from late in 1934...

So, assuming that this photo was taken in early 1934, the changes that are claimed to have been carried out on Pietch's Monza must have taken place before the main season of 1934 but after the ice racing season..

The car is, as can be seen, still white, but without the darker stripes on the sides.

Posted Image
Paul Pietch, Vallentuna -34

My archive is not at hand, but maybe this is already 1933? At "my" picture from Carthago the stripe isn´t there either. So this was obviously added some time after Pietsch had bought the car.

As an aside: Did Pietch buy his Monza directly from the factory or from another driver? The darker stripes on the sides of course make me think of the stripes the factory Monzas had at Monaco in 1933. And also the two private cars of Caracciola and Chiron at that same event. Actually, Caracciola's car must have been very similar to Pietch's car with its blue lines painted on the white car..

Riedner tells explicitly, that it was bought NEW from the factory.

And by the way, the name is Pietsch (pronounced Peetsh for English speakers), with the "s" inbetween.

#24 Racers Edge

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 11:49

uechtel

Displacement 227 CU IN. | 3720.5 cc. | 3.7 L.

#25 Michael Müller

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 11:50

Originally posted by uechtel
How much is this in cm²?
Should be one of the 3700 cc engines?


Originally posted by Racers Edge
Displacement 227 CU IN. | 3720.5 cc. | 3.7 L.


I only now realize that the engine indeed is a 3500 GT engine...

#26 Barry Lake

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 11:55

Originally posted by dretceterini

Tino then moved to Los Angeles and worked for a number of sportscar dealerships, and was the inventor of exhaust recircularisation (his design was to increase power, rather than as a method of controlling emissions)


dretceterini

Do you have more information on this?

I would be very interested to learn more.

#27 uechtel

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 11:55

...so you´d really get much less than you´d expected by the offer...

:mad:

#28 Racers Edge

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 12:02

http://www.deutscher...c-34/index.html 2 ENGINES

"Pietsch / Masaryk GP at Brno 1937" THIS IS THE Maserati 6C-34 WHEN CRASHED [ WHAT NUMBER IS THE ENGINE] ?? & WHERE IS IT T0DAY?

#29 dretceterini

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 16:45

Barry:

Tino came up with using exhaust gas without a turbo as a method of increasing power circa 1954. About 15 years ago, I saw the patent applications (circa 1954) and some other material.

40 years after the fact, Tino was still bitter about this episode in life, as he claimed the idea was stolen by his attorney turned over to Chrysler. I obviously wasn't there, so I don't know exactly what happened, but from what I saw, I have no reason to doubt what Tino said was true.

Tino's son, Mario, is very difficult to get hold of and nail down. There was a scrapbook I saw; again about 15 years ago, that had photos of the AMP special, Tino's shop in Rome, the Ferrari Indy car stuff, and various projects he worked on when he had a repair/restoration/performance improvement shop called Marcor.

In over 5 years of attempts to set up a meeting with Mario, I haven't been able to make arrangements to see this scrapbook again and make copies.. :(

I do keep trying, but it takes 10 phone calls to get one in return....

#30 uechtel

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 19:27

Originally posted by Jonas
[B]Ha! I actually had a photo tagged "Paul Pietch at Vallentuna -34" in my archive that I had completely forgotten about! It was apparently taken at a winter time race at lake Vallentuna in Sweden. And if the caption is correct it was taken in 1934. But could this be correct? The photo shows a Monza in its original shape, or at least I can't find any changes. The cars is not a single seater yet..

Looked it up in the Pietsch bio. It seems that you are right, Pietsch was at Vallentuna only in 1934.

Also I have found some more pictures in the book that should be indeed from 1934:

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this first one is extremely poor, so I posted it only for completion. The caption says it shows Pietsch getting off piste at the Gabelbachrennen in 1934.

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This is much better and shows the car in the trees after the crash.

Looking at this it seems, that I have to switch sides completely and claim now, that this car is indeed a completely different thing to Bruetsch´s post war machine. Radiator and bodywork seem very much like at the original. But before I draw further conclusions here is the last picture from the book:

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This is Pietsch, recovered from his injuries from Gabelbach, taking the start at the Feldberg late in 1934. Clearly a single seater, but also clerly not the same rear bodywork as at Brütsch´s car at Hockenheim in 1947:

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(the big car in the center of the front row).

So now the conclusions: Pietsch´s car was obviously indeed converted into a single seater for 1934, but this is not the same configuration as Brütsch´s car of 1947. This leaves the alternatives, that this is either something completely different, or that Pietsch´s former car was converted a second time between 1935 and 1946.

#31 Jonas

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 20:16

Thanks for posting the photos, Uechtel!
I've never seen Pietsch's car as a single seater before, but as you said, it is clearly to be seen in one of the photos. Interesting!

It would definitely be interesting to try and find out which car was rebuilt and driven by Brütsch. I still find it hard to believe that it was the Pietsch car..
I can't remember ever having read that Simon Moore made a connection between the identity of these to cars. But here I stand to be corrected.

Now, another question of mine came up with the posting of your photos; do you know anything about the car carrying the number 9 in the last photo? Seems to be a Monza in a bright colour, question is which one it is? :stoned:

Another interesting thing as an aside: If Auto-Union really did acquire the Pietsch car, then AU and Mercedes-Benz had one Monza each to study. MB is reputed to have taken over the car that Caracciola crashed at Monaco 1933. And, provided that the Brütsch car and the Pietsch car isn't the same one, they both vanished?

#32 Michael Müller

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 21:05

Just checked, in March 1935 the AU took over Pietsch's Monza at a price of RM 8500.
Nothing about what happened with the car.

#33 GIGLEUX

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 21:52

From Simon Moore in The legendary 2.3 about Brutsch car (classified U28, page 845):
"All I know about this car comes from Stephan Knittel. Egon Brutsch ran this single seater in Germany just after the war, starting with the Karlsrühe Dreiecksrennen on 29 September 1946, and continuing through to early 1948 when he switched to a Maserati special built by a Mr. Westenreider, based on an Alfa 6C2500 frame with a 6C34 Maserati engine.
With the Alfa, he won the class for "dinosaurs" at Eggberg in 1947. He then advertised the car for sale, describing it as being 2.6 litre and having a BMW front axle on a 2.56m wheelbase. It was seemingly not a Monza, as the exhaust pipe goes underneath the car and the tail is a bit "home made"."
A picture is joined, the same that in this thread: Eggberg 1947.

#34 uechtel

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 22:32

Originally posted by Jonas
Now, another question of mine came up with the posting of your photos; do you know anything about the car carrying the number 9 in the last photo? Seems to be a Monza in a bright colour, question is which one it is? :stoned:


With the race programme at hand this is an easy one:

#9 Helmut Deutz

Also there seems to have been even a third Alfa in this race:

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Is this No. 4? If so, then the driver should have been a certain Karl Hertz. Perhaps the same car as in the following picture, the identification of which is still to be confirmed yet:

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And when this thread is now about mysterious cars in early post-war Germany here is a picture of the start at Karlsruhe in 1946:

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The car in front should be Brütsch with von Falkenhausen in his BMW 328 on the right. No. 4 at the rear would be Kiefer´s Maserati, but what is that on the left? Maybe the same as on the following?

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This is also from Molter´s book and he says it is a Bugatti at the Ruhestein in 1946! Can anybody confirm and tell me who is the driver?


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Ruhestein again and another Bugatti. Again I do not know who is the unlucky driver.


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And finally this one. Absolutely no idea who or what that is.


Finally a few more pictures of Deutz:

http://hometown.aol....arlsruhe_48.jpg

Karlsruhe 1948 (and can somebody tell me what kind of car is that in last position on the grid?)


http://8w.forix.com/hp-eb-aach48.jpg

Aachen 1948 (in the dust cloud on the right; in front Brütsch´s Maserati and Polensky´s Monopol)


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At Schotten, following Meier in the Veritas

#35 Jonas

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Posted 11 February 2004 - 23:18

Hm, instead of sorting out the questions they reproduce like crazy!

First of all, the Alfa in the first two pictures surely must be the same. At least I can't spot any differences between the two from theses photos.
What's puzzling with this car is that it seems to be a Monza front end (Monza radiator cowl, the shorter leaf springs, exhaust pipe coming out from the side of the hood) but a Spider (Zagato or Touring) back end. So, which car is this, where did it come from and where did it go?

The Deutz car seems to be a genuine Monza. Does anyone know where this car came from and what happened to it?

I had no idea there was such an activity with old 8C's in the imidate post war Germany! Very interesting!

#36 uechtel

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Posted 12 February 2004 - 10:42

Originally posted by Jonas
What's puzzling with this car is that it seems to be a Monza front end (Monza radiator cowl, the shorter leaf springs, exhaust pipe coming out from the side of the hood) but a Spider (Zagato or Touring) back end. So, which car is this, where did it come from and where did it go?


Perhaps the equation is

Monza + Spider = Hertz car (Spider end, Monza front) + Brütsch (Spider front, whatever end)? :cat:


The Deutz car seems to be a genuine Monza. Does anyone know where this car came from and what happened to it?


Well, there is the Pietsch car and there is the Caracciola car...


I had no idea there was such an activity with old 8C's in the imidate post war Germany! Very interesting!


They simply used everything with four wheels in those days. Any stop gap was better than nothing, just to be in the game.

#37 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 12 February 2004 - 14:29

I should not try to post in a hurry as I did Tuesday, and then stay offline for another couple of days. TNFers are always waiting you behind the corner! ;)

And yes, Jonas, you spotted it, I was so concerned about finding a Monza pic on the net where the front irons were clearly visible that I eventually missed that the one I found wasn't a Monza! :blush: :blush:

I agree with you educated observations, Jonas, and I have no spare time left those days yet to check properly about the cars discussed here in Moore's book. Sorry. :|

For me there's no doubt left that Bruesch's car postwar can't be Pietsch' one, as Jonas developped with his observations.

Stu: also here, the AMP is a common sight at European events but I never digged about it and, worse, I didn't read carefully your comments on the Italian site. So I spotted your correction on the AMP signification, but just copied in my archive your text without paying attention to the lack of Maserati origines. Sorry again. :blush: :blush:

Thank you very much uechtel to share those remarkably nice and interesting pictures.

I hope to have more time next week to properly checks this thread's questions.

#38 uechtel

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Posted 12 February 2004 - 22:56

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This is also from Molter´s book and he says it is a Bugatti at the Ruhestein in 1946! Can anybody confirm and tell me who is the driver?


The only "monoposto" Bugatti I know of was that of Steinweg / Burggaller. Schumann says, that after the war that car was used by Fritz Gerster. So maybe it´s this one?


WITH MOUNTAIN RACE SPECIALIST HANS STUCK BEHIND THE WHEEL, THE MONOPOSTO’S BIG YEAR. STUCK WON THE GERMAN GRAND PRIX


and back to the original subject of the thread, this is the event those words probably are meant to refer to:



Hans Stuck in his ONLY appearance in the cockpit of that car, winning at the Schauinsland in 1949.