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Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo


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#451 David Birchall

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 04:50

White with green stripes was the Canadian colours. Here is an advertisement, unfortunately in b&w from "Canada Track and Traffic":

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The cars behind appear to be a Sadler f/e Junior and a Sadler r/e sports racer.

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#452 David Birchall

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 04:59

I spent part of this evening going through "Canada Tack and Traffic" from the early sixties, here is a race report with Namerow, Coad and Lerch going at it:

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I have also scanned the race report of the Canadian Grand Prix with 5 Lotus 19s in it and will post it if requested.

#453 bradbury west

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 09:07

IIRC there was a good photo and caption of Ryan in the 19 shown in the 1961 Castrol or possibly Shell Achievements booklet for that year. My copy seems to have gone absent for the moment.

Roger Lund

#454 Doug Nye

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 11:02

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Complete agree Mark.

There's no such thing as historical proof ...



This is a very rare occasion upon which I prodfoundly disagree with Allen. By combination of written evidence, first-person recollection and - above all - the photographic record it is perfectly possible to establish 'historical proof' beyond all doubt. It's just that this combination of circumstances is, in practical terms, frustratingly elusive.

DCN

#455 Allen Brown

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 11:40

And I quite agree with that.

I think the point that I was making is that the vast majority of the time we're working within the margin of doubt because we only have one source, not two or three independently agreeing ones.

When I was working on F1 identifications, I would keep going until I was 95% sure or 99% sure because enough material existed. With F5000s I had to be satisfied with only 90% otherwise I'd never actually publish anything because I'd keep fussing over it. With Formula Bs I think we're down to 85% and I don't think I want to count the number of time the word "presumably" appears in my Indy car histories. The less evidence you have, the harder it is to be sure.

Doug is quite right about a 'combination' of evidence. The more evidence the better.

Allen

#456 David Birchall

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 19:13

The reason I posted the report from Canada Track and Traffic is because it gives details of the time of the installation of the Ford engine in Namerows car--is this 963 have we decided?
Also it shows both Coad and Namerow in 19s at the same time....

#457 Mark Campbell

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 19:26

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The less evidence you have, the harder it is to be sure. Doug Nye is quite right about a 'combination' of evidence. The more evidence the better.


A good bit of time has been spent on the whereabouts of the first or prototypical Lotus 19, Chassis 950 and there would appear to be a good 'combination' of evidence brought forward on this Forum to indicate that 950 went to Frank Matich around the end of 1961. If I might indulge everyone a little further on the topic . . .

My question is this. If Chassis 950 did NOT go to Matich in Australia, is there ANY suggestion or evidence of ANY sort as to what became of this car after the 1961 season?

.

#458 Alan Cox

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 22:01

Here is the page from the Castrol 1961 booklet, referred to by Roger Lund

Posted Image Copyright Castrol Limited

#459 bradbury west

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 22:43

Thanks, Alan, nice to know the memory still works. I clearly recalled the Go, Ryan, Go sign, plus the girl and the maple leaf on the car door. BTW I found another, poorer, race shot in the same year's BP booklet

Roger

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#460 Michael Oliver

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 14:34

Originally posted by Mark Campbell


The CMSHGroup here in Canada knocked it around today and also confirm that Comstock was only a sponsor for Ryan. However, Autosport Limited, the Lotus importer in Canada may have had an interest in the car as they were listed as the entrant for Ryan at the Players 200, Mosport 61. A few of the guys are trying to confirm this.



This is interesting. Michael Oliver or Michael Snowdon: do you have any record or information linking Coad to chassis 963?


Mark

I don't have any info linking Coad to chassis 963 but I suppose he could have been an intermediary between Colombosian and Namerow, I don't have any cast-iron information about a Colombosian-Namerow sale. I managed to track down Colombosian but when I asked him who he sold the car to he said he couldn't remember because it was 40+ years ago, just "someone in Canada". I ran the name of Namerow past him but he just couldn't recall it or any other name...

Coad already had the ex-Ryan/Bradley 19 at this point, so it is hard to imagine why he would want to buy another 19. I suspect this information may simply have been confused with 959 but you never know...

#461 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 16:59

Just to muddy the waters a little further... :)

I think that you'll find that the official colours for Canadian entrants was dark green with two parallel broad white stripes either side of the C/L of the car.

The precise opposite of the Comstock scheme in fact.

My source recollection...an article in R&T circa 1963 which covered all the then-official paint schemes as approved by the FIA.

I seem to recall that Rob Walker took flak from officials at one GP event as he presented his cars in the traditional dark blue we all now associate with his entries as opposed to the green ascribed by the FIA to entries from the UK.

#462 Mark Campbell

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 21:46

Originally posted by Mark Campbell
My question is this. If Chassis 950 did NOT go to Matich in Australia, is there ANY suggestion or evidence of ANY sort as to what became of this car after the 1961 season?


Any takers on this one . . . or should we close the book on chassis 950? :wave:

.

#463 David Birchall

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 22:03

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


Mark

I don't have any info linking Coad to chassis 963 but I suppose he could have been an intermediary between Colombosian and Namerow, I don't have any cast-iron information about a Colombosian-Namerow sale. I managed to track down Colombosian but when I asked him who he sold the car to he said he couldn't remember because it was 40+ years ago, just "someone in Canada". I ran the name of Namerow past him but he just couldn't recall it or any other name...

Coad already had the ex-Ryan/Bradley 19 at this point, so it is hard to imagine why he would want to buy another 19. I suspect this information may simply have been confused with 959 but you never know...


Sombody earlier in this thread said they were in touch with Lerch and Dave Greenblatt--I don't recall who it was but could you call one of them and ask? Is Dennis Coad still around?

#464 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 22:54

Originally posted by Mark Campbell
Any takers on this one . . . or should we close the book on chassis 950?


As far as I'm concerned, it's closed...

We have evidence that there was a chassis number, it was clearly bought from BRP, it undoubtedly wasn't the one they had in the US. And it's gone forever.

I'm interested, however, in opening the book on the second Matich car, the one we knew as the 19B.

#465 Mark Campbell

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 16:28

Originally posted by Ray Bell
As far as I'm concerned, it's closed... We have evidence that there was a chassis number, it was clearly bought from BRP, it undoubtedly wasn't the one they had in the US . . .


Ray, when you say it "wasn't the one they had in the US" . . . could you elaborate a bit.

#466 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 20:46

Working from memory... ie. without going back over this thread... I seem to recall that there was one of their cars being raced in the US at the time, but we know that this one was shipped out of England.

Isn't that right?

#467 Mark Campbell

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 23:23

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Working from memory... ie. without going back over this thread... I seem to recall that there was one of their cars being raced in the US at the time, but we know that this one was shipped out of England. Isn't that right?


Yes, you are correct. Just wanted to follow up your remark to make sure I hadn't missed something . . .

In 1961 the first UDT Laystall car came over for Moss at the Players 200 in June . . . either chassis 950 or 952 . . . but most likely 952. The car was flown in to Montreal after the Crystal Palace event in late May from the UK. Fair bit of press on the car arriving in Canada.

The second UDT Laystall car (chassis 953) came over for Gendenbien at the Canadian Grand Prix in September and then Riverside and Laguna in October.

So it looks like we can close the book on chassis 950 . . . resolved as much as possible . . . that it did go to Frank Matich late in 1961.


.

#468 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 10:44

Sounds good to me...

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A great pic, isn't it? Where would we be without John Ellacott's great pics?

#469 bradbury west

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 11:04

Ray,thanks for posting it.

RL

#470 Mark Campbell

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 03:33

About an hour or so away from the new year Toronto time and I wanted to take a moment to wish everyone on the 19 thread all the best in 2007. Cheers!

#471 David Birchall

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 06:00

I would like to say the same from the Vancouver time zone.
My New Years resolution is to post pictures of 963s original frame :blush:

#472 tam999

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 09:12

Happy New Year to everyone on the forum from Tam McPartland and "Tam's Old Race Car Site"!

I'vw been working on photos tonight so I thought I'd have a little fun with John Ellacott's Lotus Mk.19 photo:

Posted Image

#473 Alan Cox

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 12:22

That's a really great shot of John's. Clearly "pressing on" - and nice to see that his racewear comprised a short-sleeved shirt for added fire protection.

#474 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 13:07

Originally posted by tam999
Happy New Year to everyone on the forum from Tam McPartland and "Tam's Old Race Car Site"!

I'vw been working on photos tonight so I thought I'd have a little fun with John Ellacott's Lotus Mk.19 photo:

Posted Image


Well done...

What about this one then?

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#475 tam999

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 18:11

Ray--

Since every photo on my website needs adjustment of some kind, I've had plenty of practice at this kind of thing. The second Matich shot doesn't need as much fiddling as the first, but I was able to do a little with it:

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#476 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 20:17

Thanks Tam...

I just discovered something too... these pics clearly identify when the TAB came into operation. See the great frame holding up the new roof on the grandstand in the background?

That was paid for with TAB dividends.

#477 Jerry Entin

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 20:42

Hey Ray: Shouldn't your New Years resolution be to start your push up's so you will be ready to go 195 mph in the Indy Eagle?

#478 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 20:56

I'm ready, Jerry... I'm ready!

Push-ups are only to do 210...

#479 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 22:49

From Competition Press, Feb. 25, 1967

"Lotus 19 (Original) - 2.5-liter Climax engine, 5-speed gearbox. Car brought from England by Moss to win Canadian Grand Prix. In excellent condition, completely rebuilt, including many extras. Best offer over $9800. Tom Spencer, 200 Queen Mary dr., #103, Oakville, Ontario, Canada; (416) 845-8584."

But Moss didn't win the Canadian Grand Prix, he won the Player's 200, right? Would this be 953?

Vince H.

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#480 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 21:10

Hi I all, just found the site and have got to say its fantastic.
Well were do I start my dad was Harry O'Brien the one that owned 953 I remember him buying the car in 1964 from Entwisle & Walker, he paid £2500 for it which was a lot then.
He had been racing with E&W in 64 with a Lotus 23 but when the chance to buy the 19 came up he bought it, he had many wins in 64 & 65 with the 19 apart from the International 200 meeting at Silverstone in March 1965.
The race was run in torrential rain and he started from the back row of the grid after problems in practice but worked his way up to 3rd behind Jim Clark Lotus 30 and John Surtees Lola T70, after three quarters of the race coming out of Club corner a brake disc (left front) broke up locking the front wheel which turned the car sharp left into the concrete wall that was there at the time.
Damage to the car was severe left front corner was destroyed fuel tank split luckly no fire, chassis was very serverly damaged with part of the spaceframe going through my dads leg.
My dad rebuilt the car (and your going to love this) but had to buy a new chassis from Lotus
It was the last 19 chassis as the only other one was a 19B.
The car was raced for the rest of 1965 at Aintree, in 1966 the car was burnt out in a garage fire which also destroyed a racing Lotus Cortina he had at the time, I'm sorry but I dont know the new chassis number or if it had one, or if my dad put the old chassis number on the new one.
My dad never raced again in 66 or in 67 but in 1968 he went into partnership in a garage with John Scott-Davis they bought a Chevron B5 BRM 2ltr V8 and the ex Terry Sanger Cortina 4.7 V8 I wonder what ever happened to that, the Chevron was sold to Willie Green and which I believe is in a museum in Germany. My dad stopped racing at the end of 68 and went to Australia for a couple of years and John Scott-Davis went to South Africa

Steve O'Brien

#481 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 23:18

Hello...

We've got an 'Archie Scott-Thomas' connection here! (in joke, anyone remember that one). Nice of you to chime in Steve, even if you're going to make folk run to their lists and make fresh guesstimates.

Did your father race in Australia? Here's what happened to the Lola 'Archie' brought here:

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#482 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 09:41

Sorry you have lost me with the (archie) bit, no my dad never raced in Australia.

#483 bradbury west

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 09:45

Steve, I presume that the Entwistle in E&W was Tom, who raced a TVR at various times in the very early 60s.?

Roger Lund.

#484 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 09:54

Sorry I only ever met them once and I never really took much notice I was only in my teens at the time.

#485 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 10:32

Steve, you'll need to read this post to get an inkling of what the Archie Scott-Thomas thing is about...

I think it's post No 55 on that page.

#486 Sharman

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 10:40

Roger
The Tom Entwhistle with the TVR was a Battle of Britain pilot, I was talking TVRs with Barrie Williams (he said "I only drove one once a spun it so many times on the same lap that I never tried again") and he mentioned that Tommy still turned out with that same car occasionally. There was ANOTHER Tom Entwhistle from the Wigan area with whom I served in the Army. He was involved in preparation and I remember meeting him at Oulton with a red Elite but I'm damned if I can remember the driver's name. I wonder if there is a coincidence here. John Scott-Davies was about my age and of course TVR Tom was a lot older.
John

#487 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 10:48

I have read the post and see what your on about now, it seems Scotty went on to Australia too I wonder if he's still with us my dad died in 1997.

#488 bradbury west

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:16

Originally posted by Sharman
talking TVRs with Barrie Williams (he said "I only drove one once a spun it so many times on the same lap that I never tried again") John


John, I recall when Arnold Burton turned our at Harewood in 63-ish with a very early TVR Griffith, talk about a handful.................. very short wheelbase, lots of power.

Roger

#489 Sharman

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:55

Roger
I had a Mk 1 Grantura, lightweight body, Downton Modified 1588 MG giving about 110 bhp, it was liveable with in the dry but all that was needed was for somebody to SAY "it looks like rain" and it would start spinning on its vertical axis.
John

#490 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 15:38

I remember my dad (Harry O'Brien) having a TVR must have been about 1960 it was an open top sports racer I remember him racing it at a six hour relay race at Rufforth I think they called them selves Team Hopeless Im sure they won that, John Scott=Davis was in the team as was another Aintree stawart Jim Charnock.

#491 Sharman

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 16:45

Hi Steve
I've dragged us a bit off thread, but that would probably have been a Jomar built mainly for the USA. Does the name John Kennerly ring a bell?
John

#492 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 18:06

No sorry I dont recall the name, your right lets get back to the 19's

Steve.

#493 Mark Campbell

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 15:16

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
From Competition Press, Feb. 25, 1967

"Lotus 19 (Original) - 2.5-liter Climax engine, 5-speed gearbox. Car brought from England by Moss to win Canadian Grand Prix. In excellent condition, completely rebuilt, including many extras. Best offer over $9800. Tom Spencer, 200 Queen Mary dr., #103, Oakville, Ontario, Canada; (416) 845-8584."

But Moss didn't win the Canadian Grand Prix, he won the Player's 200, right? Would this be 953?

Vince H.


Well Vince, this is a most interesting post . . . and start to the new year . . . if the advertisement by Tom Spencer has any merit. Too bad there wasn't a chassis number and nice glossy photo with the advert. Per Steve O'Brien's post immediately thereafter and others on the thread to date, the car for sale could not have been UDT 953 . . . or UDT 952 as the lineage of this 19 has been well covered thus far . . . also UDT952 was fitted with a 2.0L Climax prior to receiving the Ferrari engine for Ireland at the Pacific GP in Oct '63.

Having said that, if the car Spencer listed for sale in the CP of Feb 67 was an ex UDT or Moss car, the only car it could have been was chassis 950. Per your PM, Tom Spencer was a racer at the time so I would assume he had 'some' knowledge of what he was selling. We know it was the Players 200 that Moss won and not the GP but I don't think this oversight is that significant. Does anyone know of Spencer or his whereabouts today?

.

#494 olav glasius

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 19:36

Hi group,

A good 2007 for you all.

"950" Robert Brooks
"952" Otto Reedtz-Thott

How do this group see these cars ,are they replica s?

953

Now we learn from Steve that is was destroyed in a garage fire.
What happened after the fire?
Was anything left?

#495 Ol'_Motorhead

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 22:46

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin

... .Here are two shots I took at the Sundown Grand Prix at Mosport in 1965. Driver is Larry Reilly as mentioned in a previous post. Prep by P&G Motors...note the 'Portland' visible on the van. They were prominent in early 60's racing at Mosport. ... .


Posted Image [/B]


I followed over here from CMSHG after reading about this thread and then seeing this image which looked VERY familiar. It's uncanny to see a photo much like what I took 40+ years ago. I wasn't sure who's car this was other than it was at the Sundown GP - now I know! I guess it was the lighting that caught my eye and wondering how much it would affect the aerodynamics and/or the driver's view!

Cheers.

Posted Image

#496 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 00:40

Competition Press, October 10, 1970

Lotus 19, alum. Buick, ZF all syncro 5-speed, new paint, many spares. Trailer included. Must sell! $2300 or trade for ? Will sell less engine. James Fierst, 14011 La Forge, Whittier, Calif.; (213) 696-3736.

Apparently, Whittier is in the Los Angeles area.

I found a listing for a James Fierst in Arizona...don't know if it's the same guy.

Vince H.

#497 David Birchall

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 02:39

Call him! If he still has it, I want it! :wave:

#498 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 02:46

Ol'_Motorhead:

Small world, ain't it? :)

Biff @ CMSHG

#499 Ol'_Motorhead

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 03:22

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
Ol'_Motorhead:

Small world, ain't it? :)

Biff @ CMSHG


'Tis so! :rolleyes:

Checked the program entry list - #188's owner name is spelled Riley, like the 1.5 torn down engine I have sitting in a granery.
The co-driver is listed as Nat Adams. The engine displacement is listed as 4996 (5 litres). I'm no Chevy expert but wasn't the Corvette base engine a 327 back in the day? Did the rules limit the displacement to 5 litres - just wondering.
Cheers.

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#500 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 03:59

Originally posted by olav glasius
Hi group,


953

Now we learn from Steve that is was destroyed in a garage fire.
What happened after the fire?
Was anything left?


Not an awfull lot the cam cover on the engine had melted, the chassis although complete was in a bad way due to the heat, to give you some idea of the heat there was an 6" RSJ roof support above the "19" and that had bowed a good 2ft a very sad sight

Steve.