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Case history: Lotus 19 Monte Carlo


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#701 Tony Lethbridge

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 17:12

I too have bought the splendid model of the Stirling Moss 19 by Spark, but am wondering what the notches at the top of the front wheel arches were for? They only seem to appear on Stirling's 1961 car. Apologies if this has come up before.

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#702 Barry Boor

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 19:03

Here is the tartan from the UDT nose:

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Photographed on a Ferrari 250.GTO at the 2004 Revival.

#703 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 19:53

Originally posted by Tony Lethbridge
I too have bought the splendid model of the Stirling Moss 19 by Spark, but am wondering what the notches at the top of the front wheel arches were for? They only seem to appear on Stirling's 1961 car. Apologies if this has come up before.


The notches only appeared on the UDT cars my fathers car had them (953) the rear wheel arches were cut out too
Steve.

#704 Barry Boor

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 19:55

Doug, where are you????

#705 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 21:37

Originally posted by Steve O'Brien
The notches only appeared on the UDT cars my fathers car had them (953) the rear wheel arches were cut out too


Notches...

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The Lotus 19 as it arrived - complete with soft top

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First tryout at Warwick Farm

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Matich at speed between the Western Crossing and Homestead Corner - probably during 1962

#706 lotus19

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 05:08

Does anyone know where I can find DETAILED chassis blueprints/drawings of the Lotus 19? I want to buy the 19 body from Curtis Unlimited, then try and build a spaceframe chassis as close to the original as possible.

I have the 1961 Road and Track article which has a cutaway and Costin's Racing and Sports Car Chassis Design, which has a drawing of the frame, but I am looking for very detailed plans with measurements. Any ideas? Thanks.

Joe Martin

#707 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:05

Michael Oliver et al

Dave Tatom and Pete Nash will apparently be at Martin Rudow's book launch this Friday night at Pacific Raceways. Any questions for them about 955? And I seem to remember that Gary Gove was slated to drive the Jerry Grant Lotus 19 at some point in the 60s but don't know if he ever did. He is supposed to be there too so I can ask him.

Vince H.

#708 David Birchall

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 17:55

Originally posted by lotus19
Does anyone know where I can find DETAILED chassis blueprints/drawings of the Lotus 19? I want to buy the 19 body from Curtis Unlimited, then try and build a spaceframe chassis as close to the original as possible.

I have the 1961 Road and Track article which has a cutaway and Costin's Racing and Sports Car Chassis Design, which has a drawing of the frame, but I am looking for very detailed plans with measurements. Any ideas? Thanks.

Joe Martin


I very much doubt that such drawings would be 'readily' available-too valuable. I can put you in touch with someone who could build you a perfect copy of a Nineteen chassis, for a price, or, you could troll through this thread and find him there-he has posted on this thread but don't ask him to supply you with drawings.

#709 bradbury west

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 20:21

Originally posted by lotus19
Does anyone know where I can find DETAILED chassis blueprints/drawings of the Lotus 19? I want to buy the 19 body from Curtis Unlimited, then try and build a spaceframe chassis as close to the original as possible.
Joe Martin


Firstly let me assure you that I am not trying to catch you out, but are you looking to build a lookalike, a replica or a toolroom copy, and how would you name/call your creation. What spec would you aim for? Jus interested.
Roger Lund

#710 lotus19

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 01:43

Originally posted by bradbury west


Firstly let me assure you that I am not trying to catch you out, but are you looking to build a lookalike, a replica or a toolroom copy, and how would you name/call your creation. What spec would you aim for? Jus interested.
Roger Lund


Hi Roger--It would be a replica, much like the number of 23 replicas that are out there. I have always loved the look of the 19 and would
love to build one... I figured detailed chassis plans would be hard to come by, but I was just curious... I'll most likely build a lightweighht spaceframe chassis and use a FWD engine, mounted transversely in the rear (most likely something Japanese and reliable). I realize that probably seems blasphemous to most, but I really want the "vintage" look with modern running gear. As for what I'd call it, simple--a Lotus 19 replica. Just as the Cobra and GT40 guys do, I would register it under CA sb100, as a Lotus 19 replica.

#711 lotus19

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 01:47

Originally posted by David Birchall


I very much doubt that such drawings would be 'readily' available-too valuable. I can put you in touch with someone who could build you a perfect copy of a Nineteen chassis, for a price, or, you could troll through this thread and find him there-he has posted on this thread but don't ask him to supply you with drawings.


Hey Dave--Thanks for the tip. I'll read the thread again and look for the chassis guy.

#712 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 09:44

Joe - to produce an accurate replica you would be best advised to copy an existing genuine frame while comparing every joint, tube and section against the contemporary photo record just to avoid 'after market' modifications over the long years since the genuine frame was new. I'm pretty sure that Classic Team Lotus - Clive Chapman - would have the original drawings (presuming they have survived). Check your piggy bank, take a deep breath and then approach Clive. He's a good bloke.

DCN

#713 Ted Walker

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 16:18

Or....... Try Ken Nicholls down in Devon who I beleive has produced some 19 frames (not19 frames!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

#714 archie

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 22:39

i have the necessary prints and photos and notes to make the frame as i have replaced 4 of the 16 made.
as a general rule i would not make a frame for someone unless you had a real chassis number ie 950-966.
this may be an exception because you are doing the different engine/transmission and clearly is not a way to make a chassis /car to mess with the original 16.......i will not sell the prints but would take on the job if you wanted me to........if you want to talk 206-979-1405

#715 David Birchall

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 01:14

Originally posted by archie
i have the necessary prints and photos and notes to make the frame as i have replaced 4 of the 16 made.
as a general rule i would not make a frame for someone unless you had a real chassis number ie 950-966.
this may be an exception because you are doing the different engine/transmission and clearly is not a way to make a chassis /car to mess with the original 16.......i will not sell the prints but would take on the job if you wanted me to........if you want to talk 206-979-1405


Lotus 19--this will save you "Trolling". Archie has built many and various chassis including a Lotus 23B chassis for me and all I can say is you will not do better unless you go to the original craftsmen.

#716 D-Type

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 11:26

Originally posted by lotus19


Hi Roger--It would be a replica, much like the number of 23 replicas that are out there. I have always loved the look of the 19 and would
love to build one... I figured detailed chassis plans would be hard to come by, but I was just curious... I'll most likely build a lightweighht spaceframe chassis and use a FWD engine, mounted transversely in the rear (most likely something Japanese and reliable). I realize that probably seems blasphemous to most, but I really want the "vintage" look with modern running gear. As for what I'd call it, simple--a Lotus 19 replica. Just as the Cobra and GT40 guys do, I would register it under CA sb100, as a Lotus 19 replica.

I think that you are using the world 'replica' in a different sense to most people here. What you appear to be describing sounds more like what I would call 'an evocation'. On a production basis a Mazda MX5 is a Lotus Elan look with modern running gear. A similar description applies to Lynx 'D-Types' - they follow the D-type Jaguar closely using later parts, but do make changes form the original including, I think, E-Type rear suspension. A replica is something like the Cameron Millar 250F's which are virtually indistinguishable from a Modena-built 250F which has been restored after a hard life.

#717 lotus19

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 17:14

Originally posted by D-Type
I think that you are using the world 'replica' in a different sense to most people here. What you appear to be describing sounds more like what I would call 'an evocation'. On a production basis a Mazda MX5 is a Lotus Elan look with modern running gear. A similar description applies to Lynx 'D-Types' - they follow the D-type Jaguar closely using later parts, but do make changes form the original including, I think, E-Type rear suspension. A replica is something like the Cameron Millar 250F's which are virtually indistinguishable from a Modena-built 250F which has been restored after a hard life.


You're exactly right, Duncan. I want the body of the 19 on a quick, lightweight sports car that's as reliable as a Miata...

#718 Terry Buffum

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 18:17

If you are serious, then Archie is the guy who can get you started. His frames are exact in dimension and hold up to the rigors of racing. I'm sure we had more than 50 weekends of hard racing on the one with the V8 engine, never a problem. Toyoto MR2 might be engine and drive line to consider.

I had a complete spare set of the Plexiglass (windshield, side/door screens and perhaps headlight covers) still in the carton from the Los Angeles based aircraft supply company which made them (Don Orosco paid for the mold). John Buddenbaum has it in his shop; he has to move by this week end, so it would be very cheap to buy. Phone 650 856-7550.

Good luck with your project!

#719 lotus19

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 01:47

Originally posted by Terry Buffum
If you are serious, then Archie is the guy who can get you started. His frames are exact in dimension and hold up to the rigors of racing. I'm sure we had more than 50 weekends of hard racing on the one with the V8 engine, never a problem. Toyoto MR2 might be engine and drive line to consider.

I had a complete spare set of the Plexiglass (windshield, side/door screens and perhaps headlight covers) still in the carton from the Los Angeles based aircraft supply company which made them (Don Orosco paid for the mold). John Buddenbaum has it in his shop; he has to move by this week end, so it would be very cheap to buy. Phone 650 856-7550.

Good luck with your project!


Thanks for the heads up on the plexi pieces... Does Orosco have a 19, too? I thought he just had the Lola mk1 and his lovely Lotus 15.

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#720 David Birchall

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 02:39

Don Orosco has whatever he wants...... :cool:

#721 Terry Buffum

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 03:25

Don owned a 19 several years ago. He had body molds as well as the plexi forms made while doing his restoration. I bought the molds circa 1987.

#722 Cynic2

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 12:01

Originally posted by David Birchall
Don Orosco has whatever he wants...... :cool:


...or whatever he says it is.... :lol:


Cynic


.

#723 Terry Buffum

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 17:31

July/August 2008 issue of Vintage Motorsport has a nice article on 951.

#724 lotus19

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 23:47

Originally posted by Terry Buffum
July/August 2008 issue of Vintage Motorsport has a nice article on 951.


Wow--looks great! Thanks for the heads-up, Terry. Looks like I'll be making a trip over to Barnes & Noble tonight!

#725 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 06:04

One for sale:

http://www.princeton...sic.aspx?id=203

Vince H.

#726 Charles Helps

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 17:24

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
One for sale:

http://www.princeton...sic.aspx?id=203

Vince H.

The engine doesn't look like a Coventry Climax FPF to me, more of a V8 with four twin choke Webers...

#727 Peter Horsman

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 18:58

965 for sale at offers on $300k. As it was 2 years ago. The Roth car. It's mentioned in this excellent thread a number of times. Stated with 4.4 Buick on quad 45 DCOEs. And a Hewland FG400 box.

#728 RA Historian

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 02:53

When Mecom owned 965 it originally had a 2.0 Climax 4. Sometime in 1964 an aluminum Oldsmobile small block V-8 was installed. I never saw it run, but I would imagine that in those days it was painted in the Mecom light metallic blue with white trim.
Tom

#729 lolingram

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 19:54

Kelvin Re Mike Pendleton. Information from Motor Racing Register 1964 - B 1931. Director of Motor Company. Address Grosvenor Garage Worplesdon Rd Guildford. First race 1959 in Lotus VI. Club racing 60-61 with Lotus VI and VII plus one FJ race, 1961 competed with Lotus 17 and Condor FJ. 1962 17 races with Lister Jaguar. Success included 3rd in class Guards Trophy Brands Hatch. 1963 raced Jaguar 3.8 "also competed in Lotus 19 at Oulton Park and Brands Hatch (class 3rd)" I have traced the Brands race as 6th October 1963 in 2495cc Lotus 19 Climax 6th overall/3rd in class. Hope this helps RAP



Mike was around in Feb 2006. I saw him at Dizzy Addicott's memorial service at Brooklands, and looking good.

#730 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 21:00

As a schoolboy around 1962 I used to gawp through the showroom window of Mike's Grosvenor Garage at Worplesdon and fantasize at his big (and by modern standards decidedly scruffy) Lister-Jaguar there. We were laughing about this piece of juvenility just three weeks ago - a most genial character.

DCN

#731 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 18:57

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelvin Re Mike Pendleton. Information from Motor Racing Register 1964 - B 1931. Director of Motor Company. Address Grosvenor Garage Worplesdon Rd Guildford. First race 1959 in Lotus VI. Club racing 60-61 with Lotus VI and VII plus one FJ race, 1961 competed with Lotus 17 and Condor FJ. 1962 17 races with Lister Jaguar. Success included 3rd in class Guards Trophy Brands Hatch. 1963 raced Jaguar 3.8 "also competed in Lotus 19 at Oulton Park and Brands Hatch (class 3rd)" I have traced the Brands race as 6th October 1963 in 2495cc Lotus 19 Climax 6th overall/3rd in class. Hope this helps RAP

This car was 953 later sold to George Pitt then not long after to my father Harry O'Brien the car was destoyed in 1966 in a fire at my father's garage

Steve O'Brien.

#732 Barry Boor

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 10:30

I still gawp at Lister Jaguars! What does that make me? :)

#733 lolingram

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 14:05

I still gawp at Lister Jaguars! What does that make me?



About 60+?

#734 Michael Oliver

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 21:41

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I still gawp at Lister Jaguars! What does that make me? :)


Off-topic :p ...although I have to say they are rather brutish beasts :)

#735 Michael Oliver

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 22:16

Originally posted by Steve O'Brien
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelvin Re Mike Pendleton. Information from Motor Racing Register 1964 - B 1931. Director of Motor Company. Address Grosvenor Garage Worplesdon Rd Guildford. First race 1959 in Lotus VI. Club racing 60-61 with Lotus VI and VII plus one FJ race, 1961 competed with Lotus 17 and Condor FJ. 1962 17 races with Lister Jaguar. Success included 3rd in class Guards Trophy Brands Hatch. 1963 raced Jaguar 3.8 "also competed in Lotus 19 at Oulton Park and Brands Hatch (class 3rd)" I have traced the Brands race as 6th October 1963 in 2495cc Lotus 19 Climax 6th overall/3rd in class. Hope this helps RAP

This car was 953 later sold to George Pitt then not long after to my father Harry O'Brien the car was destoyed in 1966 in a fire at my father's garage

Steve O'Brien.


Steve, do you have any idea what year Kelvin Jones acquired 953 from your father?

#736 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 09:14

Hi Michael did you not get my email a couple of weeks ago regarding this matter
Steve.

#737 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 20:26

I was just on the phone this morning with Margaret Coad in Midland, Ontario, Canada. She is the widow of Dennis Coad. Apparently he passed away on December 4, 2001. Dennis was Canadian champion in 1963 in Lotus 19 s/n 959. They moved to Alberta from 1975 to 1987, and then back to Midland. They have three girls, grandkids, and great grandkids. One daughter, Keri Fontaine in Barrie, Ontario, has the scrapbooks. Apparently Dennis had boxes of stuff which she has put in books. Michael Oliver, I will be in touch with contact info.

Photo link here:

http://www.racingspo...3-09-28-025.jpg

Vince H.

#738 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 22:07

Hi, Vince.

I'm saddened to learn of Dennis Coad's demise. He is the subject of one of my favourite snaps. I may well have posted the image below before here @ TNF but it's appropriate considering your post above. He's just placed well in the 1963 Canadian GP @ Mosport to snag the National Driver's crown.

Dennis did me the very great honour of looking directly into my lens for the shot. TY, Denny. R.I.P.

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#739 lotus19

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 21:04

Does anyone have the paint code for light green used on the UDT Laystall cars? Thanks!

Joe

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#740 David McKinney

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 21:52

See countless earlier threads :lol:

#741 lotus19

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 01:38

Originally posted by David McKinney
See countless earlier threads :lol:


I've searched, but no mention of actual paint codes. Could you please point me to these threads? Thanks!

Joe

#742 David McKinney

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:04

Sorry
I was being slightly facetious :cool:
The question of BRP/UDT colours was discussed at length some time ago. Whether or not anyone came up with a code I don't remember.

#743 Ted Walker

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 09:37

How about ICI paint ref P030-7789 Pale Green. You will neeed to find a well established paint shop with old colour charts.

#744 CLR

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 09:38

fast response Ted !
Kevin Whittle

#745 Tim Murray

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 10:35

These are probably the two most relevant earlier threads, but they don't seem to contain any definitive paint code like that suggested by Ted:

Light green

Yeoman Credit/Bowmaker

#746 Jerry Entin

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 23:37

" I always wonder what happened to John Mecom's chassis 965 after Walt Hansgen crashed at Brand Hatch in 1964. Bob Schroeder of Dallas just informed me that the heavily damaged car sat in a hangar at Love Field for quite some time, until Bob asked Mecom if he could have the wreck. Mecom gave it to him, but kept the Olds engine. Schroeder and John Miller straightened out the car and installed an aluminum Buick V8 built by Miller. Previously Miller had done the same with Schroeder's and Enus Wilson's Birdcages, after he received a number of Buick engine blocks courtesy of Chet Flynn of G.M. According to Schroeder chassis 965 ended up with Joel Finn without having ever been raced with the new Buick."

As told by Willem Oosthoek

#747 Michael Oliver

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 00:03

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
" I always wonder what happened to John Mecom's chassis 965 after Walt Hansgen crashed at Brand Hatch in 1964. Bob Schroeder of Dallas just informed me that the heavily damaged car sat in a hangar at Love Field for quite some time, until Bob asked Mecom if he could have the wreck. Mecom gave it to him, but kept the Olds engine. Schroeder and John Miller straightened out the car and installed an aluminum Buick V8 built by Miller. Previously Miller had done the same with Schroeder's and Enus Wilson's Birdcages, after he received a number of Buick engine blocks courtesy of Chet Flynn of G.M. According to Schroeder chassis 965 ended up with Joel Finn without having ever been raced with the new Buick."

As told by Willem Oosthoek


Jerry/Willem

That's very interesting! Any idea on the dates involved here, particularly when the chassis went to Joel Finn?

Michael

#748 Jerry Entin

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 01:34

Michael: No idea on the date but Bob Schroeder mentioned the Finn purchase was part of a batch of six cars, which included the Lotus 19. In the mid-90s I noticed that Finn still had a 19 in his collection in his new house in Roxbury, CT, although I don't know if it was the old Mecom car.

as told by Willem Oosthoek

#749 Richard Roth

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 22:03

Correct on the speculation that 19-965 went from Schroeder to Finn, according to Joel with a whole bunch of other stuff. Finn sold the bits to Bill Wonder who put it together, but with cast iron Buick. Finn got it back in exchange for a Maserati engine plus, and then sold it on to Simeon Shortman who sold it to Stan Smith, who sold it to Jack Boxstrom. who sold it to yours truly in 1988. I still have it, now with an aluminum Buick V-8 and Hewland LG 400. It's in top running order and I had it for sale for some months last year through Rob Burt in Princeton NJ
By the way the ownership chain was confirmed personally by Wonder, Finn, Shortman, Smith and Boxstrom, several of which gentlemen are personally known to me in the 20 years I vintage raced an ex-works RSK Spyder in the US

#750 lotus19

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 23:39

Current issue of VINTAGE RACECAR JOURNAL has a nice write-up on the history of the 19. http://www.vintagera...d=39&magiid=137

Joe